And he said he had just gotten—he had gotten out of the Marine Corps and had taken elementary Russian—a course in elementary Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Where?
Mrs.Bates. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange student—if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes—I didn't know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that.
He said, "No"—that the State Department finally agreed to let him go over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him in case he got in trouble or anything.
So, he went. And that's all I got out of him, then, about that.
And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia.
Mr.Jenner. His writings were bitter against working conditions?
Mrs.Bates. And living conditions. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say when he had prepared these notes?
Mrs.Bates. Just whenever he could.
Mr.Jenner. When in Russia?
Mrs.Bates. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia.
Mr.Jenner. Did he imply that Marina was aware that he had these notes?
Mrs.Bates. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in the 3 days he was up there. And, at thetime——
Mr.Jenner. Were these 3 successive days?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh; 18th, 19th, and 20th.
Mr.Jenner. Did he spend substantially all day with you?
Mrs.Bates. No; it was 8 hours altogether in the 3 days.
Mr.Jenner. That was 8 hours that you worked, or 8 hours that he was there?
Mrs.Bates. I worked. And—uh—I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages, single-spaced.
Mr.Jenner. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were having some trouble interpreting these notes?
Mrs.Bates. Oh, he'd—he had to spell things out for me and—uh—it was partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it—I mean, translate it for me. And—uh—it was—uh—very difficult to read. A lot of it was scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on it—he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word phoneticallysurreptiously], he just had to do it when Marina would cover for him while he was doing this.
Mr.Jenner. Marina would cover for him?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh—muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so people wouldn't know that he was—what he was doing.
Mr.Jenner. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to you, that he was making these notes?
Mrs.Bates. Well, evidently—because he said she would cover or watch for him so that nobody would know that he was making them.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. Kind of—try to steer anybody away while he was doing this—because he could have got in trouble.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. He didn't talk very much. He—well, there wasn't much time to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. And he was very cooland——
Mr.Jenner. Cool? You mean reserved?
Mrs.Bates. Cold.
Mr.Jenner. Cold?
Mrs.Bates. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Very matter of fact?
Mrs.Bates. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question—if you asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to answer it, he'd just shut up.
Mr.Jenner. He'd just ignore you?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well, I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have lived out in that part of town."
He said, "Arlington Heights."
So—that's—that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing else to say. In other words—"Just don't say anything more."
And—uh—I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife—said she liked it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it was too rich.
Mr.Jenner. He said that she had become ill?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something, because they hadn't had enough food in a long time.
Mr.Jenner. Your impression was thatthey——
Mrs.Bates. He hadn't even been here a month, I don't think,when——
Mr.Jenner. Well, he arrived June 12—so, he was only—when he reached your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days.
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort Worth papers which witness brought with her].
Mr.Jenner. Well, I will in a moment.
I want to get from you—what was his attitude toward Russia?
Mrs.Bates. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that goes. Butthese notes, it was—uh—the terrible living conditions and the terrible working conditions and—uh—he did say, "Anything you hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These May Day celebrations—yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after dark."
And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once mentioned the word "Communist."
Mr.Jenner. Either in his notes or orally to you?
Mrs.Bates. He just said "the party."
Mr.Jenner. The Party? Those are the words he used—the expression, rather?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because there was always a party person around and he'd report you.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the translation and the notes—to read them.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to become a citizen of Russia?
Mrs.Bates. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said that he was very bitter about—he went over there on a 2-year visa and, of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go ahead and we'll send her to you."
"Well, of course," he said, "I knew I'd never see her again."
So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so much cain until they finally let him.
Mr.Jenner. Raised cain with whom?
Mrs.Bates. The Russians.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. He wouldn't leave—his visa was out but he wouldn't leave until they let her go.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the Government of the United States?
Mrs.Bates. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward the United States?
Mrs.Bates. No; I've thought and thought—and, of course, I've been asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got 10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't talk—except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into detail on them. Conversations—he had actual conversations that he had had with different people over there.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, he had?
Mrs.Bates. If you could find those notes, I tell you—they were fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"—was what it was. And they were coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence. I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence according to city and dates and things like that.
Mr.Jenner. How was his spelling?
Mrs.Bates. Well, the English was fair.
Mr.Jenner. The spelling?
Mrs.Bates. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. He was an accurate speller?
Mrs.Bates. Fair.
Mr.Jenner. He had misspelled words, though, occasionally?
Mrs.Bates. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that butit's——
Mr.Jenner. I am—when I have my secretary.
Mrs.Bates. Yeah [laughter].
College students are notoriously bad spellers.
Mr.Jenner. Particularly law students.
Mrs.Bates. Well—no—particularly psychology majors. They're terrible!
Mr.Jenner. Did you type all of his notes?
Mrs.Bates. No; not even a third of them.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me that circumstance.
Mrs.Bates. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was—uh—quite nervous. Uh—the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk and—uh—if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day, he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting to know where I was—and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said, "Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8 hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I can't let you go on."
And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he could pay me.
And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a $10 bill out of his pocket and walked out.
Mr.Jenner. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or did he take them back with him at night?
Mrs.Bates. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed—even the carbon paper.
Mr.Jenner. Even the carbon paper?
Mrs.Bates. Oh yeah. He took the carbon paper.
He did tell me that—I think it was the second day—that there was a man in Fort Worth—and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember—I just saw the letterhead for a minute—that was interested in having these notes put into book form—manuscript form.
Mr.Jenner. Does the name George De Mohrenschildt refresh your recollection?
Mrs.Bates. No. Uh—I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it didn't register with me.
Mr.Jenner. But it sounded like a man who is an engineer?
Mrs.Bates. He said he was an engineer—he told me that. But there's lots of engineersin——
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes.
Mrs.Bates. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to. And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the man was willing to—uh—wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes. I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me.
Mr.Jenner. Lee told you that this otherperson——
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh, this engineer.
Mr.Jenner. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had read all the notes.
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. Lee told me he had shown him the notes.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not. Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes."
And the man could read and speak Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. That much he did tell me.
And I just—uh—the next day when he came up was when he was real nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Bates. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. Did he talk about his wife?
Mrs.Bates. Yes—uh—some.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mrs.Bates. That—uh—she loved America and had wanted to come and that she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and stay. And that she—uh—couldn't get over walking down the streets, and the shops—and that New York had just astounded her.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. And Texas climate—uh—was really good for her.
Mr.Jenner. The climate, you mean?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
And—uh—he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had a child.
Mr.Jenner. In any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned?
Mrs.Bates. No, sir; I didn't know he had any.
Mr.Jenner. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point at which he had married Marina?
Mrs.Bates. Never mentioned her. But he told me that he did.
Mr.Jenner. What impression do you have as to the period of time in Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed?
Mrs.Bates. Well, it was on Minsk and—uh—that one that starts with "K"—two cities—and he must have been on them for the whole time he was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could get the time and get away from people.
And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together in just a few months. It was too detailed.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. I see.
And your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes?
Mrs.Bates. About—from the pile. I don't know how much more there was, really, because they were all sizes—the paper was.
Mr.Jenner. And, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance?
Mrs.Bates. No; I just saw the envelope. I typed 10 full single-spaced pages.
Mr.Jenner. That was letter size?
Mrs.Bates. Letter size. Uh-huh. And that's a lot of words.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; that's right.
Mrs.Bates. I wish I could remember more about them but—uh—I think my legal training came forth there—you forget things deliberately when you're not suppose to remember things.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Bates. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia and the terrible working conditions.
They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing].
Mr.Jenner. They are?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final edition.
Mr.Jenner. I see. But the text of the story is the same?
Mrs.Bates. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the time?
Mrs.Bates. Well, after I—uh—after he left, a short time afterward, Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press.
Mr.Jenner. That's the Fort Worth Press?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said, "By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be able to help him."
So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave me—was the telephone number—his brother's telephone number.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Bates. And they tried to contact him but couldn't.
Mr.Jenner. Could notcontact——
Mrs.Bates. Lee.
I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he was real worried about it, because he needed one.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Bates. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help him find a job.
Mr.Jenner. And they were unable to contact him?
Mrs.Bates. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home several times—oh, I think, two or three times, she said—one of the reporters did.
Mr.Jenner. And when was this?
Mrs.Bates. Oh, it was shortly after I did the work.
Mr.Jenner. I see. In the summer of 1962?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh; he was still out—I guess he was still out there—but there was never anybody at home when they went out there.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could have shaken hands with him—and it was a terrible shock—until Caroline called me.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh; that day?
Mrs.Bates. That night of the assassination.
And wondered, she said—I was out at my club—and she said, "Have you seen any television or listened to any radios?"
And I said, "No."
She said, "Well, have you got a television there?"
And I said, "Yes."
She said, "Turn it on—and then call me back."
So, I did. And there he was.
Mr.Jenner. And the person you saw on television—this would be the night of the assassination?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as LeeOswald——
Mrs.Bates. Lee Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. And whose notes you typed on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of June?
Mrs.Bates. 1962.
Mr.Jenner. 1962?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. And you were firm in your recognition of that person?
Mrs.Bates. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone would—you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew that's who it was.
That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was perusing again].
Mr.Jenner. These first two pages?
Mrs.Bates. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and talked with you?
Mrs.Bates. Not until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see—Thanksgiving was the following week?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Caroline said, "Well, do you want to do something about it?"
I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do."
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. Because he hadn't been—he had not been—uh—charged then even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all Wednesday afternoon and talked. So—it wasn't any spur of the moment thing.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. I wasn't meaning to suggest that.
Mrs.Bates. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3 days he was in my office—and that was a little difficult to do because of all the things that happened since.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; in the interim.
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time forward—that is, the 20th of June, 1962?
Mrs.Bates. I saw him on the street twice after that.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, you did? This was in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. He didn't see me.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't see you and you didn't greet him?
Mrs.Bates. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into this—uh—variety store—Green's, or Grant's, I think it is.
Mr.Jenner. Was anybody with him?
Mrs.Bates. No; he was by himself.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever meet Marina?
Mrs.Bates. No; his mother called me.
Mr.Jenner. When—after the assassination?
Mrs.Bates. The day the story broke.
Mr.Jenner. This story that you've shown me?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. She told me not to talk to anybody until I had talked to her. I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mrs. Oswald, you're too late." She said, "That is not the property—that is my property."
Mr.Jenner. What is her property?
Mrs.Bates. She said, "I knew that Lee had had a public stenographer do some work but I never could find out who." And I said, "Mrs. Oswald, I didn't even know he had a mother in Fort Worth. He never spoke of her." She said, "Well, don't talk to anyone until I have talked to you." I said, "Well, you're just a little bit too late."
Mr.Jenner. Did she ever come out to see you?
Mrs.Bates. No.
Mr.Jenner. And that was the only conversation you ever had with her?
Mrs.Bates. Yeah—uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. I am going to show you pages 148 through 157 of a bound document on the cover of which appears the title, "Affidavits and Statements Taken In Connection With the Assassination Of The President." These pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be some manuscript notes. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Bates. I was.
Mr.Jenner. As you look at those documents—would you leaf through all the pages I have mentioned?
Mrs.Bates. Yes [complying]. It would be pretty hard—oh! wait a minute! wait a minute!
Mr.Jenner. This is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that material?
Mrs.Bates. Right here.
Mr.Jenner. As things that he had in his notes.
Mrs.Bates. (Continuing to peruse notes) Metropole—uh-huh—Minsk.
Mr.Jenner. You are now referring to page 149?
Mrs.Bates. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. You see something that is familiar to you?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the punched, ring book paper?
Mrs.Bates. I believe some of them were.
Mr.Jenner. And were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled left-hand margin?
Mrs.Bates. Every kind of paper imaginable.
Mr.Jenner. Well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of that character?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh; uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Now, some of his notes were in longhand, were they not?
Mrs.Bates. Yes; in pencil and pen.
Mr.Jenner. In pencil and in pen?
Mrs.Bates. His pen would run out and he would start in on pencil.
Mr.Jenner. Now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with the handwriting of Lee Oswald, or what he said was his handwriting, when you transcribed his notes for 3 days?
Mrs.Bates. It looks very much—as I remember it—it looks very much like it.
[The witness points to a particular page.]
Mr.Jenner. The witness is referring to page 149 which seems particularly to attract her attention. The head of that is "Resident of U.S.S.R." Does that page awaken your recollection?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh—very definitely.
Mr.Jenner. What about it awakens your recollection?
Mrs.Bates. Well, as I remember, that's the way his notes started out.
Mr.Jenner. That [reading from notes] "I lived in Moscow from October 16, 1959, to January 4, 1960, during which time I stayed at the Berlin and Metropole Hotel"?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. That is as I remember—as I can remember—and that's all I can do, my recollection is that that's the way they started out—just like a story.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Bates. A diary.
Mr.Jenner. Did he take his notes with him, too, whenhe——
Mrs.Bates. Took everything. He wouldn't allow me to keep anything.
Mr.Jenner. Would you go through those pages and see if you recognize any other of the story type of thing?
Mrs.Bates. [Complying.] Uh-huh. It was strictly Russian—on Russia—his trip to Russia.
Mr.Jenner. And, at that time, he had just returned from Russia and it would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes deal with his subsequent residence in the United States?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. And in New Orleans?
Mrs.Bates. Yeah; which I knew nothing about.
Mr.Jenner. Well, it occurred afterward, in any event.
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. I mean, I had never heard of the man before and I didn't hear of him afterwards.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the story in The Fort Worth Press—front page story in The Fort Worth Press of Friday, November 29, 1963, volume 48, No. 50, final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and which is marked Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.
Mrs.Bates. You may have it.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you. And that is thestory——
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. That was written by Miss Caroline Hamilton, Press staff writer, as you have described?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Is that story accurate as you related it to her?
Mrs.Bates. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything in the story that you would like to amend or correct?
Mrs.Bates. No, sir. It was read to me before it was ever printed twice.
Mr.Jenner. It is Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.
Mrs.Bates. And we did it very carefully to make it all—so we wouldn't get the past and the present mixed up. We kept it to the 3 days.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI on December 2, 1963?
Mrs.Bates. Yes; let's see, that was a Saturday, wasn't it—December 2?
Mr.Jenner. [Referring to calendar] December 2 was a Monday.
Mrs.Bates. Well, no; they came to my home on Saturday after the story broke.
Mr.Jenner. Did they interview you twice?
Mrs.Bates. Well, they didn't interview me the second time really. They just—uh—I had received a letter, I think it was, that I turned over to them.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Could it have been Saturday, the 30th of November?
Mrs.Bates. It was the following Saturday after the story broke. Saturday the 30th of November. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall saying to the FBI men who interviewed you that the story wasaccurate——
Mrs.Bates. Yes, sir; gave him a copy of it.
Mr.Jenner. In every detail, with one exception—which was that Lee Oswald never stated that he was working for the U.S. State Department.
Mrs.Bates. Well, that is not in the story.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about that.
Mrs.Bates. That was what—the radio and television was trying to put words in my mouth at that time. And—uh—I don't know how many times I had to call and tell them to retract that. I never stated that. I stated that when he first said that he went to Russia and had gotten a visa that I thought—it was just a thought—that maybe he was going over under the auspices of the State Department—as a student or something.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. From that, they got that he was a secret agent forthe——
If you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the weekend. I had to get them to retract—according to the Associated Press Monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to my house over the weekend and interviewed me—and I was on my way to Washington Monday!
Mr.Jenner. You mean, this past weekend?
Mrs.Bates. Yes; The Star Telegram called meMonday——
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Bates. And asked me about it and I said, "I don't know what you are talking about."
And they said, "Well, somebody has just jumped the gun."
And I said, "Well, you'd better do something about it. That's not true. And I certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people."
Mr.Jenner. I think some one of the young men around here told me that—but I put no stock in it,so——
Mrs.Bates. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I don't have a telephone at home. I had it taken out. And there wasn't any way anybody could contact me. I did get my letter Friday. But that's all. Well, they had me on the plane Monday to Washington! [laughing]. That's the press.
Mr.Jenner. They try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit it one out of three times.
Mrs.Bates. Well, anyhow, The Star Telegram took care of it. They said that I had gotten the letter—that they understood I had gotten the letter and I would be called as a witness—and that was it.
I told them—I said, "You'd better get that off the wires because it's not true—and I'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything like that. No one has contacted me except by letter." But they were putting all kinds of words in my mouth.
Mr.Jenner. They hadn't talked to you at all?
Mrs.Bates. Who?
Mr.Jenner. The newspaper people over this weekend?
Mrs.Bates. No; I don't have a phone at home. And I was home very ill with bursitis.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, you were?
Mrs.Bates. I've got it right now. It's about to drive me crazy.
Mr.Jenner. That's pretty bad stuff.
Mrs.Bates. But, all this stuff about the Secret Service, I mean, that's strictly radio and television and reporters. The UP and the Associated Press drove me crazy calling me at 2 and 3 in the morning—"Mrs. Bates, can't you addsomething?"—"Can't you remember something else?"—"Well, can't you elaborate?" Well, I had one stock answer: "You cannot elaborate on the truth."
Mr.Jenner. That's right.
Mrs.Bates. And that's all I could remember. I didn't know the man; I could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. And that's all I knew about it. "Well, can't you elaborate?"—you can't elaborate on the truth.
Mr.Jenner. No; that's right. Does anything occur to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission about which I haven't asked you—insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned?
Mrs.Bates. I don't know. I can't think of another thing. And I do have to keep from giving impressions I've got now.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. You haveto——
Mrs.Bates. I mean, disassociate the past and the present. I've got to.
Mr.Jenner. That's right.
Mrs.Bates. Because I don't know anything about the man except what I have read—since then. And I cannot make statements on my opinions or things like that. I don't believe in it.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during which we have had some conversations. Is there anything that occurred during the course of those asides that I had with you that you think I have failed to bring out—that's pertinent here?
Mrs.Bates. No, sir; I think everything is down. In fact, we quit talking when she was changing the tape—except for a cigarette, or something like that.
I wish I could help you more.
Mr.Jenner. So do we. But all we can do is to try to delve into this great mystery.
Mrs. Bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your deposition when it's been transcribed.
Mrs.Bates. May I have a copy?
Mr.Jenner. And to make any additions or corrections you see fit to make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. You also have the right to waive these privileges if you see fit.
If you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, I think, be ready along about Wednesday of next week, a week from today. If you will call in, if I'm not in—we expect to be here—but if I'm not in, talk to the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders.
Mrs.Bates. That's long distance. I live in Fort Worth. Could you get a'hold of Agent Howard?
Mr.Jenner. Agent Howard? Well, we cannot let the deposition out of our possession.
Mrs.Bates. No, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? He's the one that brought me over and he's waiting for me.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, he is?
Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Well, when you are driving back with AgentHoward——
Mrs.Bates. I'll tell him.
Mr.Jenner. You tell Agent Howard to let you know when it is ready.
Mrs.Bates. Okay. Because I don't have a car.
Mr.Jenner. Because I have a hundred things to think about and I probably won't think about it.
Mrs.Bates. Would there be a possibility of having a copy of it?
Mr.Jenner. The rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular rates are. So, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your privilege.
Mrs.Bates. Well, I'll ask Mr. Sansom—he's a very prominent lawyer over there—and he said he wanted a copy of it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. If you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one.
Mrs.Bates. Uh-uh. Well, you couldn't afford to give anybody copies of it.
Mr.Jenner. Not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy to anybody—other than yourself.
Mrs.Bates. Oh, no; of my deposition, you mean?
Mr.Jenner. You may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement with the reporter.
Mrs.Bates. I see what you mean.
Mr.Jenner. But, you may not do so for somebody else.
Mrs.Bates. Oh, no; but I mean I want it for my files up at the office.
Mr.Jenner. And thank you for your time and your cooperation.
Mrs.Bates. Well, I figured it might help.
The testimony of Max E. Clark was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please, I will place you under oath.
(Complying.)
Mr.Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Clark. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Clark, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand that Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you I would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. I presume you did receive those documents with that letter, is that correct?
Mr.Clark. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first, your knowledge of Lee Oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called Russian community here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and, two, to some extent, I want to ask you about your knowledge of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name, please?
Mr.Clark. Max E. Clark.
Mr.Liebeler. You are an attorney?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. A member of the Bar of Texas?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Any other State?
Mr.Clark. No, I am licensed to practice in the Federal courts and American Bar Association.
Mr.Liebeler. And you maintain your offices in Fort Worth, is that correct?
Mr.Clark. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your home address?
Mr.Clark. 4312 Selkirk Drive West.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you been a member of the bar?
Mr.Clark. Since 1939—now I have to stop andthink——
Mr.Liebeler. That's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a native-born American, Mr. Clark?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Born here in Texas?
Mr.Clark. No, I was born in Indiana.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you move to Texas, approximately?
Mr.Clark. In 1927.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state for us briefly your educational background?
Mr.Clark. Well, I attended public high schools in Fort Worth, graduated and went to T.C.U., University of Texas, 1 year in the University of Arizona and received my law degree at the University of Texas.
Mr.Liebeler. Your wife, I understand, was born in France and her parents were born in Russia, is that correct?
Mr.Clark. My wife was born in France; her father is Russian and her mother is English and Russian. I know her father was born in Russia but I am not certain whether her mother was born in Russia or England because they alternated back and forth so I really don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Does your wife speak Russian?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us in your words the background leading up to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met him, approximately when?
Mr.Clark. We first became aware of Oswald when we noticed in the newspaper in Fort Worth that Lee Oswald, a defector, had returned to Fort Worth with this Russian wife and very shortly after, I noticed it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone call from Oswald stating that he was there and he understood she spoke Russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking Russian from someone from the Texas Employment Commission and she said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some Russian and I was at my office and we would either call—or we would call him that weekend so she discussed it with me when I came home and on a Sunday following that, why, I told her "Well, might as well call if the girl spoke Russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well call her; and so she placed the call to Oswald's brother, I believe is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with Oswald and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt.
Mr.Liebeler. This first attempt of Oswald's to contact your wife did he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter?
Mr.Clark. Purely social; his wife could not speak English and she would like to talk to some girl that spoke Russian so we made the offer. We were not about to go out to his house where he was living. If he wanted to see us he could come over there. We felt we had done enough. Shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in France so it had been planned that she would go over there during this operation, so my wife left in July, I believe, or first of August. I have forgotten, of 1962 and was gone 7 weeks or something like that. When she returned to Fort Worth in September or the latter part of September, the Russian group which she keeps rather close contact with—there is not such a large number between Dallas and Fort Worth that they communicate quite freely back and forth—stated that they had met this Marina Oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time and so several of them came over from Fort Worth, I mean from Dallas to Fort Worth and asked my wife to meet them at Oswald's house.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is this?
Mr.Clark. I think it was George Bouhe and Anna Meller and I've forgotten but I wasn't present, I don't know, but this is what my wife was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that the Oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met this Marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and she talked with her and Oswald was apparently working because she did not see him and then we had no further contactwith them or even knew about them until Oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this Marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live with a friend of ours, Elena Hall who at that time was divorced and was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this Marina and the child to live with her awhile. Apparently, Oswald left the city and went to Dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated I don't know because we had heard stories that Oswald had beat her and that it was not going very well, their marriage, andso——
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately when was it that Marina moved in with Elena Hall; do you remember?
Mr.Clark. Some time in October of 1962; the exact date I don't know. I know that she had been over there a few days when Elena Hall had an automobile wreck late one night. We received a phone call from the hospital to pick up this Marina and the baby and take them to the hospital because Elena was under the impression that she had killed the baby or Marina in the car wreck. She thought that they were involved.
Mr.Liebeler. Were they in the car at all?
Mr.Clark. No; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty badly, apparently, during this car wreck. So, we went by to this Elena Hall's house about 10 that night, picking up Marina and the baby and took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given sedatives and—Elena Hall—and I don't know whether she knew any more about it. I did not see her that night.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Marina see Elena Hall that night?
Mr.Clark. I think so but I am not sure. I know we took them to the hospital and then we took Marina and the baby back to her home, to this Elena Hall's home, and, of course, during—from that period while Elena was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this Marina and buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she could not speak English and had no transportation or any way to get food. So, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her to the grocery or take her food.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to ask some detailed questions about that but before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas EmploymentCommission——
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at the Fort Worth Public Library?
Mr.Clark. Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time. When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course, we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, why, my wife—we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them before we did.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife?
Mr.Clark. No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of Smith.
Mr.Liebeler. This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort Worth, is that correct?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there just one office of the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth?
Mr.Clark. There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the Gregorys first, I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. One of the things that the Commission is doing in an attempt to learn as much as we can about Oswald is we are trying to put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the entire time he lived in this country after he returned from Russia. I would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife provided to Marina Oswald while she lived at Elena Hall's house. Do you have knowledge of those things?
Mr.Clark. Actually, it was probably very small because Elena was in the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that time, apparently there was—she bought her some groceries and I do recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. I doubt if it would exceed $10 or $15.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as you know the only thing that your wife did provide to Marina were these things you described?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether she gave Marina any money?
Mr.Clark. I am sure she did not give her any cash; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you go on with your story now, please?
Mr.Clark. So, upon—when this Elena was in the hospital my wife would see Marina about every day and I think that one evening during that week, I took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner one night and then on the Sunday following this hospital treatment and while Elena was still in the hospital, Marina asked my wife if we would come over on Sunday afternoon and have some Russian dinner that she would prepare for us and this Elena's ex-husband was coming into town from Odessa and if we would come over there, 3 or 4 o'clock Sunday afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over there and we did and when we got there Oswald was there. That was the first time either my wife or myself had met Oswald; so, we were there, oh, I would say approximately 2 hours. Some time after we arrived then John Hall, as I recall, came in from the hospital. He had been over seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on and then we left rather early in the evening. Well, probably, I don't recall the time but it must have been 7 or 8 o'clock.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald ever stayed at Elena Hall's home while Elena was in the hospital?
Mr.Clark. I have no way of knowing. I did not think he did. It was under my impression he was in Dallas at the time. In fact, we were quite surprised to see him that Sunday afternoon because we had formed the impression that Marina and he had separated. I don't know definitely because I couldn't talk with Marina. She only spoke Russian at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife have the impression that there had been marital difficulties between the Oswalds at that time?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us any specific reasons why your wife thought that?
Mr.Clark. None other than the conversations and the fact that Marina seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there.
Mr.Liebeler. During this time that you and John Hall and your wife and Marina and Oswald were present at Elena Hall's home, did you have a conversation with Oswald?
Mr.Clark. Yes, I did.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say and what did you say?
Mr.Clark. Of course, I was extremely interested in, well, life in Russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was Lee Oswald the defector. He seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. In his opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say, "You know who I am?" when he would meet someonefor the first time, so he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him I asked him why he went to Russia. He said that he was in the Marines and he had read a lot of Karl Marx and he had studied considerably while he was in the Marines and he decided that he would get out of the Marines and he would go to Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he studied Marxism when he was in the Marines?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he had studied the Russian language while in the Marines?
Mr.Clark. He indicated he had because I asked him how he learned to speak Russian and he said he studied while in the Marines and learned a lot more when he went to Russia but apparently, he studied it quite awhile before he left.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or whether this was private effort?
Mr.Clark. He did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the Marines that he went—I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get to Russia?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia, and the minute he got to Russia, he went to the American Embassy and told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his passport and he went to see about becoming a Soviet citizen and they told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why the Russians would not accept him as a Russian citizen?
Mr.Clark. No; he didn't say. He indicated he had to stay there a length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said because he was a marine he got a better apartment. He got an apartment with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little better apartment than the normal working person there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you where he was sent to work?
Mr.Clark. He did and I think it was in Minsk or some place; I don't remember exactly. He told me the name of the town; it was wherever Marina came from. I have forgotten which one it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you any more details about his relations with the American Embassy and the Soviet authorities when he first came to the Soviet Union?
Mr.Clark. Nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become a Soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet metal worker.