Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia?
Mrs.Murret. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all he would say.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian government?
Mrs.Murret. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you?
Mrs.Murret. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer in there, one of those places—I forget which—but he did say that he worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.
Mr.Jenner. They didn't want a third man on the job?
Mrs.Murret. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on the job.
Mr.Jenner. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this photographer?
Mrs.Murret. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and everything, because they got here so quick.
Mr.Jenner. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say anything to him about that?
Mrs.Murret. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, "If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house——"
Mr.Jenner. That's Myrtle Evans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right, go ahead.
Mrs.Murret. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize Lee.
Mr.Jenner. He was telling you this; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, "Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and then she decided to help him find an apartment.
She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?
Mrs.Murret. Did he say why he left Russia?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over there, he didn't like it?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he didn't say that to me.
Mr.Jenner. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mrs. Paine drive her?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.
Mr.Jenner. At 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was.
Mr.Jenner. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. I guess that was the date.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee move in on Monday?
Mrs.Murret. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.
Mr.Jenner. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and Monday was the ninth.
Mrs.Murret. Of May?
Mr.Jenner. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right, and he came back to my house on that Saturday morning.
Mr.Jenner. That's the 11th?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Were you present when he did that?
Mrs.Murret. I went to see the apartment.
Mr.Jenner. But were you present when he took the things out of your garage?
Mrs.Murret. You mean in the garage?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. No; I wasn't.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the garage?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all anxious to see—not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he loaded the car.
Mr.Jenner. Your car?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see them put the things in the car?
Mrs.Murret. No; but they did put everything in the car.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see them do that?
Mrs.Murret. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.
Mr.Jenner. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your husband?
Mrs.Murret. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after they got everything out of the car, we just left.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing them into the apartment?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; but we didn't help them.
Mr.Jenner. Was your husband helping to unload the car?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself.
Mr.Jenner. You saw him doing that?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Did your husband have any luggage?
Mrs.Murret. Luggage?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think he had some suitcases.
Mr.Jenner. He had some suitcases?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.
Mr.Jenner. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the garage; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a ready recollection of that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.
Mr.Jenner. Of ordinary size, would you say?
Mrs.Murret. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather than square?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases.
Mr.Jenner. About 28 inches long?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But you didn't see any long package?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches long, or something like that.
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.
Mr.Jenner. There were two suitcases, as far as you know?
Mrs.Murret. As far as I know; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Could there have been three?
Mrs.Murret. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. But your immediate recollection is that there were two?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases.
Mr.Jenner. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.
Mr.Jenner. Did your boy do any hunting?
Mrs.Murret. My boys?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all.
Mr.Jenner. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your house?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know what that rifle looked like?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, almost shot his hand off.
Mr.Jenner. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in there?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock looked like, and so forth?
Mrs.Murret. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready to go out.
Mr.Jenner. Marilyn is your daughter?
Mrs.Murret. Marilyn is my daughter; yes.
Mr.Jenner. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.
Mr.Jenner. You mean your son John?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think he was there.
Mr.Jenner. Had Lee arrived in the meantime?
Mrs.Murret. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her car.
Mr.Jenner. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did you see Mrs. Paine any more?
Mrs.Murret. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more.
Mr.Jenner. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby?
Mrs.Murret. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it must be 50 blocks.
Mr.Jenner. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their house?
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. All right, go ahead.
Mrs.Murret. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we didn'teven know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and everything that belonged to the baby with them.
Mr.Jenner. This is Lee and Marina, now?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw anyone before in her life.
Mr.Jenner. You had this feeling, did you?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You have reared some fine children, and you have grandchildren?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it you have a knack with babies and children?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this baby?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee decided that they would go out.
I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.
Mr.Jenner. What is the lakeside?
Mrs.Murret. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks from where I live.
Mr.Jenner. About a mile-and-a-half?
Mrs.Murret. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.
Mr.Jenner. How did they get out there?
Mrs.Murret. Marilyn drove them.
Mr.Jenner. Your daughter Marilyn?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she drove them out to the lake.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee know how to drive a car?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car.
Mr.Jenner. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, operating an automobile?
Mrs.Murret. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an automobile, though?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I never knew him to drive.
Mr.Jenner. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, and they went crabbing; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, "Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending $1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the baby, and she camearound a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove them home, and that was it.
When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr.Jenner. How did you learn that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he told me.
Mr.Jenner. How did he come to tell you that?
Mrs.Murret. He called me and again he said they just didn't need another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be the only excuse he gave for losing a job.
Mr.Jenner. That was what he told you?
Mrs.Murret. Why he had lost his position?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.
Mr.Jenner. The Louisiana Employment Service?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that State?
Mrs.Murret. State employment, yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right; go ahead.
Mrs.Murret. During that time he was getting State employment from Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.
Mr.Jenner. A what?
Mrs.Murret. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to drive.
Mr.Jenner. He did tell you that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. When was that?
Mrs.Murret. That was when he was out looking for a job.
Mr.Jenner. He told you he couldn't drive then?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would have to drive a truck.
Mr.Jenner. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found any other job after that here.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee plant?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," andthe funny thing was that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went home with the spread after all.
Mr.Jenner. This was when they first came?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but I wouldn't remember that now.
Mr.Jenner. Might your husband remember that?
Mrs.Murret. No. My husband was never around when all this was going on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.
Mr.Jenner. To visit your son?
Mrs.Murret. No; my daughter, in Beaumont—Joyce. That was on July 1.
Mr.Jenner. Had Lee lost his job by that time?
Mrs.Murret. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in between that time.
Mr.Jenner. While you were away, he lost his job?
Mrs.Murret. It could have been in between that time; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you recall?
Mrs.Murret. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to me about that.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while?
Mrs.Murret. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.
Mr.Jenner. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain things.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then—in August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see me, which I thought was very nice.
Mr.Jenner. You mean Lee?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to be nervous—like, you know—and I thanked him for coming, and then he went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday—that following Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreatat Manresa, and he missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, "Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and everything."
This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But you can't carry signs like that in the business district."
The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."
Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.
Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He went right outto their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe it was.
Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten anything, because they ate up all the rolls.
I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take them home, and John brought them home.
Mr.Jenner. In his car?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.
I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right then—somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them any more.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the last time you saw either one of them?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, postcard, or otherwise?
Mrs.Murret. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, two men came to the house from the FBI.
Mr.Jenner. That was Labor Day, was it?
Mrs.Murret. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few days after Labor Day, I think.
Mr.Jenner. After Labor Day?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," and then they told me who they were.
Mr.Jenner. That's when they told you they were FBI agents?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told methat a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to Texas."
Mr.Jenner. This was the 20th of September, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over something—in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane professor.
Mr.Jenner. A Tulane professor?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I understand it.
Mr.Jenner. Who showed the slides?
Mrs.Murret. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew the professor and all that.
Mr.Jenner. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow?
Mrs.Murret. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.
Mr.Jenner. In Moscow?
Mrs.Murret. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from Lee Oswald and Marina.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out?
Mrs.Murret. What's that?
Mr.Jenner. The trip over to Mobile.
Mrs.Murret. Oh. Well, that came in—I don't remember the date.
Mr.Jenner. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around there?
Mrs.Murret. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to law school.
Mr.Jenner. At Loyola?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit.
Mr.Jenner. A Jesuit priest?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was with us, and also her two children.
Mr.Jenner. How long were you gone on that trip?
Mrs.Murret. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.
Mr.Jenner. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?
Mrs.Murret. Not that I know of.
Mr.Jenner. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs.Murret. What school is that?
Mr.Jenner. At Mobile?
Mrs.Murret. Where Gene was?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. The Jesuit House of Study.
Mr.Jenner. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina over,and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences in Russia.
Mr.Jenner. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over there about his speaking, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't think.
Mr.Jenner. Was this in a conversation between you and your son?
Mrs.Murret. No, by letter that was.
Mr.Jenner. By letter?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.
Mr.Jenner. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important and he gets permission?
Mrs.Murret. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home.
Mr.Jenner. But he may write you?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year—I mean, we go up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things like that. We are allowed to do that.
Mr.Jenner. But he can't call you?
Mrs.Murret. No, he can't call us.
Mr.Jenner. Why is that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, they just don't like it.
Mr.Jenner. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they mind if you call him?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays or something we can do it.
Mr.Jenner. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over there?
Mrs.Murret. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just what happened?
Mrs.Murret. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and that night we were going to meet.
Mr.Jenner. That's you and your husband?
Mrs.Murret. And Joyce.
Mr.Jenner. Joyce, your daughter?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And her two children?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee and Marina, and their child June?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, and Ron and Jill.
Mr.Jenner. And Ron and Jill?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very attentive too to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Always?
Mrs.Murret. Always. Now, what he did at home—how he acted around her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car door for her, and so forth—very attentive. He would pull the chair out for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say that for him.
Mr.Jenner. What was her attitude toward him?
Mrs.Murret. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and some shrimp and comehome and boil and cook them. They got a big bang out of doing things like that.
Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your presence?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. No discussion about anything like that by anybody?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this stuff was stored?
Mrs.Murret. No; I never did.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it might contain a rifle?
Mrs.Murret. No; I never did see one around there.
Mr.Jenner. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?
Mrs.Murret. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these boots and this hat.
Mr.Jenner. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, no; women couldn't attend.
Mr.Jenner. Was that on a Saturday night?
Mrs.Murret. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back the next afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that your understanding?
Mrs.Murret. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."
Previous to that time, I had said to Lee—I knew that Lee was going to talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I give talks all the time."
Mr.Jenner. He said he gave talks all the time?
Mrs.Murret. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, "I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.
Mr.Jenner. Did she go with you to mass the next morning?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she did.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she said, "I like your church very much."
Mr.Jenner. Marina said that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would become a Catholic."
Mr.Jenner. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the baby to be baptized.
Mr.Jenner. Who didn't?
Mrs.Murret. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's something he probably resented—not the baptism itself but the church.
Mr.Jenner. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the baby been baptized before that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know which.
Mr.Jenner. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation?
Mrs.Murret. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, "Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he really meant that the way it sounded.
Mr.Jenner. You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of speech?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything about it.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think that Lee was arrogant?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay any attention to that.
Mr.Jenner. What was there about his mouth that you noticed particularly?
Mrs.Murret. Well, it sort of set back a little bit—a little different from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard School indicating—either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before they changed the numbering on your street, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs.Murret. Well, it came about—they only had one house in the 700 block, from CanalBoulevard——
Mr.Jenner. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that Lee gave your home address as his address?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block.
Mr.Jenner. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which was your address?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't given them my address and given some other address in another district, he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she said she would like to have him enrolled there.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his conduct generally, as you recall it?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He never really did talk unless you said something to him.
Mr.Jenner. The same old pattern, would you say?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others just aren't. You run across that every day.
Mr.Jenner. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some activity of the Civil Air Patrol?
Mrs.Murret. I don't know anything about that other than my sister Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange—whatever that is, at the time.
Mr.Jenner. Exchange Place?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and tie on one occasion?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such a nice way—he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that same shirt and tie on.
Mr.Jenner. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, "Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know how to drive.
Mr.Jenner. I believe you said during the course of this discussion that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he did use his left hand as a child. I remember that.
Mr.Jenner. In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.