Mr.Jenner. They eat with either hand, don't they?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they grow olderto their right hands, but then there are some children who never use their right hand, I don't think.
Mr.Jenner. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy though, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see Lee write left handed?
Mrs.Murret. When?
Mr.Jenner. After he reached, say, high school age?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. You never noticed it one way or the other?
Mrs.Murret. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand?
Mrs.Murret. I never noticed really.
Mr.Jenner. Your boys are all right handed, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of your boys, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and the Cuban boy?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he called.
Mr.Jenner. Who, Lee?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the radio, so—we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but then we turned it on and did hear some of it.
Mr.Jenner. You heard some of it?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political views?
Mrs.Murret. Not in my home.
Mr.Jenner. And not with you?
Mrs.Murret. No; and I don't think with any other member of my family.
Mrs.Jenner. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity was concerned, his coordination?
Mrs.Murret. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he wasn't prepared to do anything in life.
Mr.Jenner. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an automobile? Did your son talk to you about that?
Mrs.Murret. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too long, and then they came back.
Mr.Jenner. Would it have been as long as a couple of hours?
Mrs.Murret. No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around.
Mr.Jenner. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he say anything either way as to that?
Mrs.Murret. You mean on that day?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive.
Mr.Jenner. As far as you know, he couldn't drive?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, and herhusband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, Beaumont, Tex., is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Right.
Mr.Jenner. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, he has a designation of S.J. What is that?
Mrs.Murret. Society of Jesus.
Mr.Jenner. And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And a fine student?
Mrs.Murret. He certainly was.
Mr.Jenner. And he is unmarried?
Mrs.Murret. Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit.
Mr.Jenner. And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Right.
Mr.Jenner. In New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Right.
Mr.Jenner. She's unmarried?
Mrs.Murret. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get married.
Mr.Jenner. She doesn't want to get married?
Mrs.Murret. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles didn't see Lee at all.
Mr.Jenner. Charles is your dentist son?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce—they did, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And of course your husband?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs.Murret. Just that morning when we went there.
Mr.Jenner. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and Marina—arrived from Irving, Tex.?
Mrs.Murret. Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?
Mrs.Murret. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him.
Mr.Jenner. Liked President Kennedy?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for example?
Mrs.Murret. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My boys don't smoke.
Mr.Jenner. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house around here?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian literature that you know of?
Mrs.Murret. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but that's about all.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack Ruby, or Rubenstein?
Mrs.Murret. No; I never did.
Mr.Jenner. No one else ever discussed him in your presence?
Mrs.Murret. No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs.Murret. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether it was or not is something else, I guess.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald during his lifetime?
Mrs.Murret. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way.
Mr.Jenner. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house.
Mr.Jenner. But you had no impression of him as being a violent person?
Mrs.Murret. No; not at all.
Mr.Jenner. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it.
Mr.Jenner. You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition then?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret.
The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress number 137.
I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be 3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to testify?
MissMurret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963.
MissMurret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those questions, would you please state your full name for the record?
MissMurret. Marilyn Dorothea Murret.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
MissMurret. 757 French.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born, Miss Murret?
MissMurret. New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans?
MissMurret. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years in St. Louis.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your educational background?
MissMurret. Well, from elementary on?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
MissMurret. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh High School.
Mr.Liebeler. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans?
MissMurret. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. LouisUniversity——
Mr.Liebeler. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you have mentioned?
MissMurret. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational courses—instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones.
Mr.Liebeler. What school gave you your B.A.?
MissMurret. Tulane.
Mr.Liebeler. Tulane University?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you presently teaching?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where?
MissMurret. Fortier?
Mr.Liebeler. Where is that?
MissMurret. Fortier.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans?
MissMurret. Yes; unfortunately.
Mr.Liebeler. When did teach there?
MissMurret. September through December, but he didn't pay us—he paid the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and he still owes me for December.
Mr.Liebeler. This is the person who is running the Junior University of New Orleans?
MissMurret. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one across the river. He had two, one on this side,and——
Mr.Liebeler. Two so-called universities?
MissMurret. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the one across the river is still operating.
Mr.Liebeler. And you taught at theone——
MissMurret. Across the river. We didn't get paid sowe——
Mr.Liebeler. If I understand, the one you taught at is still operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and started teaching at Fortier?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who are your parents?
MissMurret. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your father's occupation?
MissMurret. Well, steamship clerk—I don't know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or how they operate, actually.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know the name of the company for which he works?
MissMurret. I don't know if it is just—the way it is, if there is no business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how that works.
Mr.Liebeler. And your mother's nameis——
MissMurret. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie.
Mr.Liebeler. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is shenot——
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have other brothers and sisters?
MissMurret. They are all—most of them are dead. Her brothers all died when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was very young, and I don't remember him at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl?
MissMurret. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33.
Mr.Liebeler. You meanwhen——
MissMurret. When her mother was 33.
Mr.Liebeler. When her mother was 33?
MissMurret. Yes; I think the eldest child is—I just don't have any idea.
Mr.Liebeler. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have?
MissMurret. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers.
Mr.Liebeler. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So altogether in the family there would have been four girls and two boys?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Your mother's three sisters and thetwo——
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct?
MissMurret. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all dead.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the other sister's name?
MissMurret. Mancy.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that her last name?
MissMurret. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last name.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know her last name?
MissMurret. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other daughter because her husband is dead.
Mr.Liebeler. So she livesin——
MissMurret. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee she goes.
Mr.Liebeler. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does she have?
MissMurret. Three—no, four. That is Winfry, is her name.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters?
MissMurret. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the other one.
Mr.Liebeler. Pearl, who is deceased?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Has she children living?
MissMurret. Yes; two.
Mr.Liebeler. What is Pearl's last name?
MissMurret. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband.
Mr.Liebeler. Were her children boys or girls?
MissMurret. Two boys.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know where they live now?
MissMurret. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he lives.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the second one?
MissMurret. That one was Jack—she had two boys.
Mr.Liebeler. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. The first boy's name was Emile?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four children?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are they boys and girls?
MissMurret. Three girls and one boy.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know their names and where they are living?
MissMurret. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.
Mr.Liebeler. You would think in Tennessee somewhere?
MissMurret. Yes; or maybe the university—might be Kentucky. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they live?
MissMurret. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is just a nickname, and then Jackie.
Mr.Liebeler. And Jackie?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know?
MissMurret. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives—I don't know, either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters live in the same State, and one in the other.
Mr.Liebeler. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
MissMurret. Three brothers and one sister.
Mr.Liebeler. Three brothers and one sister?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What are your brothers' names?
MissMurret. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce.
Mr.Liebeler. Is your sister Joyce older than you?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. She is older?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. John Murret does what?
MissMurret. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co.
Mr.Liebeler. Here in New Orleans?
MissMurret. New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Is Joyce married?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What is her last name?
MissMurret. O'Brien.
Mr.Liebeler. And she lives in New Orleans?
MissMurret. No; in Beaumont, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and their names were what?
MissMurret. One was John.
Mr.Liebeler. John?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And the other?
MissMurret. I think Charles. I didn't know them.
Mr.Liebeler. Do they have children living of which you know?
MissMurret. No; they died when they were very young—1918 and 1919, during World War I.
Mr.Liebeler. They do not have any children surviving them?
MissMurret. No; there were none.
Mr.Liebeler. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has three sons?
MissMurret. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite Oswald over the years?
MissMurret. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved back to New Orleans was when she lived on—she would stay 1 or 2 days orso——
Mr.Liebeler. And this last time was when?
MissMurret. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.
Mr.Liebeler. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived on Exchange Alley?
MissMurret. I don't really remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange Alley?
MissMurret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on Exchange Alley?
MissMurret. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard from them when she was somewhere else.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?
MissMurret. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him occasionally.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that Beauregard Junior High School?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
MissMurret. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I don't think he was over very much.
Mr.Liebeler. About how old was he then? Do you remember?
MissMurret. I don't know—at that time I guess he would be getting out of high school—well, then, you would be getting out of high school when you were about 16, so he might have been around—I don't really know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.
Mr.Liebeler. Fifteen?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell us?
MissMurret. July 14, 1928.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?
MissMurret. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park?
MissMurret. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well, when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother.
Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee—" and when he turned around, they hit him. It was just actually that—even though he was in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which was one incident. But he was extremely quiet.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, interested in that sort of thing?
MissMurret. I don't think he told me that—my mother must have told me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, actually, I mean, thatshe didn't think it was his fault, because she remembered those particular incidents.
Mr.Liebeler. And you and your mother have had discussions about this after the assassination?
MissMurret. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of hisformer——
MissMurret. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in common with the other students—I don't remember this. This was a long time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me that that was the reason for not associating with the other students, and that they made fun of him.
Mr.Liebeler. And this discussion came up when these former students from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that opinion?
MissMurret. And from what I know—it is a long time ago—but he was very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and, of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind—I don't know—but he had a certain manner about him that other children never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say that any trouble started with him—I don't know. I mean from what I know, he never was.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and being well mannered?
MissMurret. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some people that would irritate them—that would irritate many people, I suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was very—he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him, everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very cute.
But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about him and the others, other than he was not—well, other than, as I was saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of those students, I should say.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed from his associates or fellow students at that time?
MissMurret. No; at that time I don't think because—well, I think he wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money—it could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't—I guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned this television program in which these former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what station that program was on?
MissMurret. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, youknow——
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the name of any of the students?
MissMurret. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he said that he was friendly with Lee at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of any others?
MissMurret. Any other people?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; that were on the television program?
MissMurret. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very interested.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program run by a particular reporter or commentator?
MissMurret. A reporter.
Mr.Liebeler. I beg your pardon?
MissMurret. Probably just a reporter had called these people in.
Mr.Liebeler. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when these people were interviewed by someone, presumably?
MissMurret. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed information.
Mr.Liebeler. The reporter talked to you personally?
MissMurret. The first time my father talked, and they get you off guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave, which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all the comments by the neighbors.
Mr.Liebeler. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald?
MissMurret. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed there a few days when he came in.
Mr.Liebeler. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about 11 or 12 years old at that time?
MissMurret. Just about.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very pretty child, and that he wasadorable——
MissMurret. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just—well, he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling child.
Mr.Liebeler. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems?
MissMurret. No; he was darling.
Mr.Liebeler. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all?
MissMurret. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if he didn't get his way would start screaming—never any of that. He was just a very pleasant child.
Mr.Liebeler. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with you at that time? Do you know?
MissMurret. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him.
Mr.Liebeler. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was born?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that time?
MissMurret. I don't know—she worked for several department stores, and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was Jean's Hosiery Shop.
Mr.Liebeler. So it was hosiery shops or department stores?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after that? Do you know?
MissMurret. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later.
Mr.Liebeler. Or what?
MissMurret. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young.
Mr.Liebeler. When Lee was very young?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans?
MissMurret. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to figure out whether he was.
Mr.Liebeler. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not?
MissMurret. No; I am not.
Mr.Liebeler. But up until the time that Lee left you and went back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright young boy? Is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr. Ekdahl; is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl?
MissMurret. I met him once.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know the correct spelling of his name?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with Mr. Ekdahl?
MissMurret. My circumstances?
Mr.Liebeler. No; the circumstances?
MissMurret. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to military school.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this after they were married?
MissMurret. It might have been before—I don't know whether she got married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two boys—he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in uniform.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this relationship?
MissMurret. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, "Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was quite hesitant about it, actually.
Mr.Liebeler. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father, she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever met him?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know anything about that marriage?
MissMurret. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said, thathe did not want any children, and father and she found that very difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if she got pregnant.
So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't—he said that he would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was true. And he definitely did not want any children.
So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him—it might be the other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she left, or maybe he said he was leaving—I just don't know. Anyway, that was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to himor——
Mr.Liebeler. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to have any children?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or afterwards?
MissMurret. Mr. Oswald?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes?
MissMurret. It was a long time after that they were married.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father?
MissMurret. I saw him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like?
MissMurret. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange Alley?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you have when you met him again?
MissMurret. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think that he was a sensitive person?
MissMurret. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like that, and probably—I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, but my aunt had no alternative—I mean they probably did the wrong thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of—I am saying if he did this—of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.
Mr.Liebeler. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, before she went to Texas?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form an impression of her?
MissMurret. Who? Marguerite?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
MissMurret. When she came back you mean?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?
MissMurret. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how they—I mean they will slit one another's throats.
Mr.Liebeler. The sales clerks?
MissMurret. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing—she didn't engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.
Mr.Liebeler. But other than that you haveno——
MissMurret. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald came to New Orleans, isn't that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us what you know about that?
MissMurret. When he came in the last time, you mean?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, isn't that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to New Orleans?
MissMurret. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that he was married, and that he had a baby.
So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, and they moved into the place on Magazine Street.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you live with your mother?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there during that period?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long was he there?
MissMurret. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a week.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with him during that time?
MissMurret. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really had was on religion.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that during this week?
MissMurret. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Liebeler. Was that at the time?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say about that, and what did you say?
MissMurret. He just listened.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you say?
MissMurret. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist because a brother of mine is in the seminary, youknow——
Mr.Liebeler. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary?
MissMurret. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour.
Mr.Liebeler. You are a Catholic, is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. A practicing Catholic?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you expressed that to Oswald?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then he indicated that he had his own way?
MissMurret. Which he didn't express.
Mr.Liebeler. But he did tell you that he was an atheist?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't go into any further details than that?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject like that, and then not really respond to it?
MissMurret. That was typical of Lee.
Mr.Liebeler. Typical of Lee?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with you overyour——
MissMurret. No. Oh, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations that you might have had?
MissMurret. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk with him, and that was the first day that he came—I believe it was. After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ask you about thisor——
MissMurret. My mother.
Mr.Liebeler. And you were there at the time?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did your mother tell him?
MissMurret. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her.
Mr.Liebeler. What was her name?
MissMurret. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother would know.
Mr.Liebeler. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's?
MissMurret. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of his father. And then he went to visit the grave.
Mr.Liebeler. Of his father?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he talk to you about that at all?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. What happened to the picture? Do you know?