MissMurret. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it a large pictureor——
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved over to the apartment on Magazine Street?
MissMurret. Yes. I guessso——
Mr.Liebeler. You haven't seen it around the house since?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and went to the other aunt?
MissMurret. You say to the aunt?
Mr.Liebeler. To this aunt who gave him the picture?
MissMurret. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job?
MissMurret. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. I know he was looking—I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tellyou——
MissMurret. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a job?
MissMurret. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my mother.
Mr.Liebeler. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet Union, did you not?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia?
MissMurret. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he said about the family, that people were very familyconscious——
Mr.Liebeler. In Russia?
MissMurret. Yes; I don't know—I think he was citing one experience where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place?
MissMurret. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife told me at thattime——
Mr.Liebeler. Where was John living at that time?
MissMurret. In Japan.
Mr.Liebeler. You were in Japan at that time?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What were you doing in Japan?
MissMurret. I taught school over there.
Mr.Liebeler. In an English speaking school?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?
MissMurret. He didn't tell me—his wife told me. So I didn't bring the subjectup at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed.
Mr.Liebeler. John was?
MissMurret. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was in Stars and Stripes.
Mr.Liebeler. John was in the Air Force at that time?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why he went?
MissMurret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia other than what you have already told us?
MissMurret. The only thing he said was—I just didn't know any of this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, and he worked in the factory.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of factory?
MissMurret. No; he didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what he did?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
MissMurret. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the Soviet Union?
MissMurret. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you speak Russian?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you speak any foreign language?
MissMurret. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten?
MissMurret. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had gotten out, in the first place.
Mr.Liebeler. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean?
MissMurret. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was—was he a Russian officer?Anyway——
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say herfather——
MissMurret. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in the Army. And I think that she had an uncle—I don't know—but I think it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the Intelligence Service in Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. Her uncle?
MissMurret. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get out. So, that I couldn't figure out.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that?
MissMurret. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her papers, and by that time they'd hada baby, but, anyway, I wasn't satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, they would be trailing him.
Mr.Liebeler. You thought this?
MissMurret. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, naturally.
Mr.Liebeler. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it?
MissMurret. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could just forget about that because he might really have realized that he made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try to antagonize him—I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back here, you would do everything you could to help him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by the two authorities?
MissMurret. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that he—I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him anytime.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had given him the money? Did he tell you that?
MissMurret. He told my mother that.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember any more about it than just that he had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more details, or did your mother repeat them to you?
MissMurret. Well, and then I read something about it.
Mr.Liebeler. After the assassination?
MissMurret. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation with Lee about it before the assassination?
MissMurret. About what?
Mr.Liebeler. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and these difficulties?
MissMurret. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all.
Mr.Liebeler. And he didn't tell you anything about it?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from to return to the United States?
MissMurret. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, and an uncle—I don't know what he was at the time—but I thought he was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't really think too much that—well, your first reaction, but then you don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the Soviet Union?
MissMurret. At first; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You mean when youfirst——
MissMurret. The first reaction.
Mr.Liebeler. You mean when youfirst——
MissMurret. Well, the fact that he got out.
Mr.Liebeler. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him?
MissMurret. After he came out.
Mr.Liebeler. And you didn't really think about that too much until he came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time?
MissMurret. We didn't know he was out.
Mr.Liebeler. Until he came here?
MissMurret. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all?
MissMurret. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for—I don't know—probably a year."
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
MissMurret. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly throw up past mistakes, in case he, youknow——
Mr.Liebeler. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it for the reasons you state?
MissMurret. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get out?
Mr.Liebeler. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. It did not?
MissMurret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented an apartment and moved out? Is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you there when he left your house?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you he found an apartment?
MissMurret. He told me about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he or did he not tell you personally?
MissMurret. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high ceilings. But he liked it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Marina come out to your house at this time?
MissMurret. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas broughther——
Mr.Liebeler. In a station wagon?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know her name?
MissMurret. I know now; yes. It was Paine.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know her at that time?
MissMurret. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced herself—I don't remember—because I was getting ready to go out and that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was very nice to meet her.
Mr.Liebeler. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved out, or after he moved out?
MissMurret. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came tomy house, and then from there they were going to go, so they wouldn't get lost—so they could find the directions, or something. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then?
MissMurret. They stayed there a very short while and Marina waspetrified——
Mr.Liebeler. What was she petrified about?
MissMurret. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Lee there at that time?
MissMurret. Yes; he had movedout——
Mr.Liebeler. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to meet Marina and Mrs. Paine?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to Marina?
MissMurret. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said anything.
Mr.Liebeler. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How did it go?
MissMurret. It was exasperating.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she understand any English?
MissMurret. I think she understood more than she could speak, but still there is a lot she doesn't understand.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient in the English language?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her at all in English?
MissMurret. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when they would eat over there a few times—on the food, but other than that,she——
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine?
MissMurret. Mrs. Paine? I don't know—my mother had said that Lee had been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages.
Mr.Liebeler. What is his name? Is it Riseman?
MissMurret. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. Paine's.
Mr.Liebeler. Would the name Kloepfer sound likethe——
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. How about Riseman?
MissMurret. No; I don't know the language professor's name.
Mr.Liebeler. You think your mother would remember?
MissMurret. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't.
Mr.Liebeler. And this professor, he was a professor of what?
MissMurret. Languages.
Mr.Liebeler. What language? Russian?
MissMurret. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some other language. He just teaches, youknow——
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't have any idea where he lived?
MissMurret. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him.
Mr.Liebeler. Oswald?
MissMurret. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian.
Mr.Liebeler. Who? Mrs. Paine?
MissMurret. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in the language, and you would see people who spoke that language.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine in any way?
MissMurret. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking people, and she spoke Russian herself.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed this with you about the professor?
MissMurret. No; my mother told me.
Mr.Liebeler. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything else about this professor that we could use to find out who he was, or who he is?
MissMurret. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think that that would be too difficult to find.
Mr.Liebeler. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment?
MissMurret. I just drove him over there once or—I think we drove him home once or twice.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you ever inside of the apartment?
MissMurret. Once I went in the back part.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of place was it?
MissMurret. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, they took the bus, and we always took them home.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that?
MissMurret. On Magazine?
Mr.Liebeler. That you recall? Yes?
MissMurret. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day—I don't know—and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July until September.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in September?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What did you do?
MissMurret. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or 4 they came over in the bus.
Mr.Liebeler. Did they come over on the bus?
MissMurret. Yes; and then we took them back.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not?
MissMurret. I think it was on a Saturday.
Mr.Liebeler. So this would have been before July, is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you have indicated that you were not in New Orleans during July or August of 1963?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who also went on this crabbing expedition?
MissMurret. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my house.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us what you can recall about that?
MissMurret. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, "Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever catch any crabs that day?
MissMurret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything else that was said or that happened on that day that was worthy of any note?
MissMurret. She didn't say anything and he was walking up anddown——
Mr.Liebeler. Lee was?
MissMurret. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only an hour and a half.
Mr.Liebeler. So you were not able to talk to Marina?
MissMurret. I said a little bit, but nothing—I mean, you couldn't really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you know, word for word.
Mr.Liebeler. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him,or——
MissMurret. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wantedto——
Mr.Liebeler. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on this expedition?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got along with each other?
MissMurret. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her—I don't know. You don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probablyI—and he seemed to—I don't know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute couple.
Mr.Liebeler. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here?
MissMurret. Only what I read.
Mr.Liebeler. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?
MissMurret. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't—I couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, "Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartmentor——
MissMurret. She didn't like it.
Mr.Liebeler. She didn't like the apartment?
MissMurret. She said she, "No like. No like."
Mr.Liebeler. Did youunderstand——
MissMurret. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low ceilings.
Mr.Liebeler. And you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished?
MissMurret. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very nice for the money, actually.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know how much he was paying for it?
MissMurret. Sixty-five.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of neighborhood was it in?
MissMurret. On Magazine—I don't know about Magazine, but I don't think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?
MissMurret. He never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never.
Mr.Liebeler. Never said anything about President Kennedy?
MissMurret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Or Governor Connally?
MissMurret. No; but I can't remember whether it was—if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.
Mr.Liebeler. What program are you referring to?
MissMurret. That might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that.
Mr.Liebeler. That was a television program?
MissMurret. Yes; television.
Mr.Liebeler. And you say that you saw it after the assassination?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about Kennedy on that?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And other than that you never heard him speak of President Kennedy?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the Negro?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing?
MissMurret. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly—I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and August of 1963, and where were you?
MissMurret. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and Panama.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you travel by yourself?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you travel?
MissMurret. By bus and station wagon.
Mr.Liebeler. Your own station wagon?
MissMurret. No; public transportation.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or subsequently?
MissMurret. On this trip, no.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a tourist operation?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Basically a tourist operation, you say?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you learn that?
MissMurret. My family.
Mr.Liebeler. Your family told you?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did they tell you?
MissMurret. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and I think she said that Lee came up to see her—but I don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on—came to see her at the hospital—and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets.
So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come and gethim out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was the friend? Do you know?
MissMurret. Of course, he didn't know—that was Emile Bruneau, who is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was just a personal favor.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this episode when you saw him on Labor Day?
MissMurret. I didn't ask ask him anything else.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile?
MissMurret. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take his car and go by himself.
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. This was your brother John?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did?
MissMurret. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic—I think it was in the park.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up Marina and take her back to Texas?
MissMurret. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Liebeler. And that was in May 1963?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee Co. sometime during the summer?
MissMurret. I guess he did—I don't know if that was after I came back or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he lose it?
Mr.Liebeler. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone.
MissMurret. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, 13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.
Mr.Liebeler. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know?
MissMurret. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in Japan?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long were you out of the United States, and where did you go, and what did you do?
MissMurret. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore,which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom—I went all through, Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip?
MissMurret. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan.
Mr.Liebeler. As a teacher?
MissMurret. As a teacher; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you teach in Australian schoolsor——
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?
MissMurret. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching science, which is the same—they have a teacher's college which is 2 years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.
Mr.Liebeler. You are a science teacher?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you when you heard about the assassination?
MissMurret. At Juno.
Mr.Liebeler. In school?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in connection with it?
MissMurret. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
MissMurret. Slightly!
Mr.Liebeler. In fact, you were very surprised?
MissMurret. Of course.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you believe that he could have done it?
MissMurret. No, no.
Mr.Liebeler. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you come up with anything?
MissMurret. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government just as effectively—I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did it, it would—I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the eyes of the world.
Mr.Liebeler. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had?
MissMurret. No. You mean envy, or something, or desireto——
Mr.Liebeler. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself?
MissMurret. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. He never struck you as being that way?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human being?
MissMurret. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way he was.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee company?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know?
MissMurret. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical oneor——
Mr.Liebeler. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job?
MissMurret. He said it was all right.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things or not?
MissMurret. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was somebody.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity?
MissMurret. Perfectly content—I mean he thought he was extremely intelligent.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think he was?
MissMurret. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you form the impression that he was very articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?
MissMurret. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very—he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers—if he didn't care to give them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?
MissMurret. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Why not?
MissMurret. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.
MissMurret. Well, because of his manner—I think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk—he was very erect—he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the collegegraduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. And I don't know if that—that is as clear as mud, I guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them.
Mr.Liebeler. And you thought that was very much of a problem?
MissMurret. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on Marxism or communism?
MissMurret. I don't know anything about that unless—anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained.
Mr.Liebeler. And you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?
MissMurret. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be—I never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't think he was—well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street?
MissMurret. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid—well, I just thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting his mouth off. I mean, he didn't denyanything——
Mr.Liebeler. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you?
MissMurret. I don't understand what you mean.
Mr.Liebeler. You said the fellow was pretty quiet?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And he stayed pretty much to himself?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans?
MissMurret. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter;however——
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know?
MissMurret. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me—well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the factthat they are disturbing the peace. I mean these are just boys—that's what he said, "they are just boys, and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a Marxist.
Mr.Liebeler. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?
MissMurret. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, youknow——
Mr.Liebeler. This is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination?
MissMurret. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Liebeler. This is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination?
MissMurret. Well, because everybody yells—it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?
MissMurret. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist lives like the Communists, anyway—they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine.
Mr.Liebeler. I think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? Do you believe he did it?
MissMurret. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't—there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, I—it could have been more than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in New Orleans?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see any rifle in his apartment?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle?
MissMurret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.
MissMurret. I don't know of any.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you interviewed by the FBI?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times?
MissMurret. Once. My mother and I at the sametime——