Mrs.Voshinin. Definitely.
Mr.Jenner. He sought to provoke argument?
Mrs.Voshinin. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. He would take either side?
Mrs.Voshinin. Either side.
Mr.Jenner. Always opposite to the other person?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Voshinin. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite sympathy for the—I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow—not in particular.
Mr.Davis. I wonder if I might ask a question?
Mr.Jenner. Sure.
Mr.Davis. Did you all ever meet people named the Kelvin Fords?
Mrs.Voshinin. Kelvin or Declan Ford? I met Declan Ford.
Mr.Davis. I mean Declan. Excuse me.
Mrs.Voshinin. Declan. Yes.
Mr.Davis. Do you know them?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't know them very well. I knew her very well whenshe was married to her first husband—but not too close with her after she married Declan. I just met them several times.
Mr.Davis. Did you attend the Christmas party that they had?
Mrs.Voshinin. No, sir; I did not—oh, wait a minute. That was not Christmas party. That was New Year's party.
Mr.Davis. New Year's party?
Mrs.Voshinin. This year's New Year's party; yes. We attended that. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr.Davis. Did you meet Lee Oswald there?
Mrs.Voshinin. No, sir. That was after the assassination of the President that we attended the New Year's party.
Mr.Davis. Well, the one the year before?
Mrs.Voshinin. Oh, no. We went elsewhere.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about George De Mohrenschildt's personality—other than in this area of argumentation and provocation.
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, I thought that he was a neurotic person. He had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage absolutely for no reason at all practically. And I knew that he complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very well. And once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or something. He had some difficulty on the nervous background.
Mr.Jenner. Was he unconventional?
Mrs.Voshinin. Uh—what does that mean exactly?
Mr.Jenner. He didn't dressnormally——
Mrs.Voshinin. That's true; yes.
Mr.Jenner. He would come to church in shorts?——
Mrs.Voshinin. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. He would walk into your home without invitation?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right. He was that way.
Mr.Davis. Sort of a beatnik?
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, no; not beatnik—but he was definitely nonconformist. He would just love to do exactly what people would, you know, object to.
Mr.Jenner. He was not sensitive to the feelings of others?
Mrs.Voshinin. Not at all. I believe that sometimes he definitely enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. He used to—in any way. For example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. If they are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. The conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the Jewish people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know.
He was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children in that respect—honestly. And what the trouble is with George and Jeanne, both of them, I think, their main trouble is their extreme bitterness—extreme bitterness, I believe which goes back to their former life.
Mr.Jenner. Bitterness?
Mrs.Voshinin. Toward life, toward people, toward—you know, they thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. For example, Igor and I were bigots because we went to church. You know, that sort of thing. And so and so on.
Mr.Jenner. They were unreligious people?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes, sir; they were actually fighting atheists.
Mr.Jenner. They were aggressive atheists?
Mrs.Voshinin. Aggressive, definitely. And they would just state it in, sometimes, quite rude form. One definitely would object against the form, mainly—because, after all, everybody should have his own belief. There is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in which they did it, you know, the impoliteness.
Mr.Davis. Did you ever notice that they tended to want to help people?
Mrs.Voshinin. To help people?
Mr.Davis. Were they the type persons that were always trying to help someone that needed help?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; not always; uh-uh. But, I think that by nature, theyare very, very good natured—definitely. They're for the underdog, you know—always. And—well, compared to George Bouhe, whose whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it or not, you know—they would be nonhelpful. You know, they would not bother so much about people as George Bouhe did.
Mr.Jenner. They weren't aggressive about it as George Bouhe was?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right. But they were very—are very good natured.
Mr.Jenner. And generous people?
Mrs.Voshinin. Not George—no. Jeanne, yes; but not George.
For example, their relation to Oswald. They definitely pitied him very, very much. They were very sorry for him. And they tried to help him in any way they could.
Mr.Jenner. Now, that you have mentioned the Oswalds, did you ever meet either one of the Oswalds?
Mrs.Voshinin. No, sir; uh-uh.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear about the Oswalds?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In what connection did you first hear or read or learn about their existence? Fix the time, first.
Mrs.Voshinin. My husband read it in the newspaper.
Mr.Jenner. That would be in June of 1962?
Mrs.Voshinin. I really can't say.
Mr.Jenner. They arrived herein——
Mrs.Voshinin. They arrived here and there was an article in the newspaper.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. They arrived in New York on the 12th day of June 1962?
Mrs.Voshinin. I didn't knowabout——
Mr.Jenner. Well, I'm just telling you that that's so.
Mrs.Voshinin. Uh-huh. Thank you.
Mr.Jenner. And then your husband read an item in the local paper—about what?
Mrs.Voshinin. About them arriving here and from where did they come. They came from Russia. You know that. They arrived hereand——
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said in this article that arrested your attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance or happenings in Russia?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't remember very well whatever was there in the article. I didn't read it myself. But what I heard of them was from my friends—first, from the Clarks. And they told me some circumstances. They told me that he was living in Minsk, I believe. But they didn't tell me anything about his political nature. They just said that she is a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish.
Mr.Jenner. Boorish?
Mrs.Voshinin. Boorish. Has bad manners and arrogant. I don't know the right English word for that. Arrogant, maybe. And, so, we decided that we don't want to associate with him at that time.
And the second time I heard from them—no, between that time—between Clarks and De Mohrenschildts—I heard from them some other people in the St. Nicholas Church. They mentioned them.
Mr.Jenner. You said, I heard from those people about Oswalds—about two Oswalds. Right?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; and they were usually positive about her and somehow uneasy about him. They liked her. And the only thing that I heard—the only people that I heard about the political inclinations of Oswalds were De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. In conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?——
Mrs.Voshinin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. They related to you their views as to Oswald's political inclinations?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did they say and who said it—which of them?
Mrs.Voshinin. First of all, we did not discuss it. It was rather remarks on George's side—because we asked George definitely and Jeanne not to bring himto our house and not to invite us when the Oswalds are there because we had certain reasons—not evidence—but reasons to believe that he might be a Soviet agent. Might be, you know. But not sure at all whether he would be or not.
Mr.Jenner. Since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want to have anything to do with them?
Mrs.Voshinin. We wanted to stay away from them. Yes. And the De Mohrenschildts argued with us about that. George would say always that he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. And, then, later—that was at the beginning—that was at the very beginning—and then later, somehow, I believe George started seeing through Oswald a little bit. That's my own opinion—impression.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you go ahead and talk.
Mrs.Voshinin. Because he told me on several occasions that, "You know, I believe that he's just an idealistical Marxist." And he said, "You know, he's one of those pure Marxists." You know, meaning a Marxist in theory but not in practice.
And finally I remember a pretty good conversation—George mentioned the possibility of Oswald being actually a Communist. Because, he said, you know Natalie, I believed that he remained what he was."
And I remember definitely that conversation because Jeanne took George right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement. And she said that she does not believe that he is a Communist because he was very disappointed with Mr. Khrushchev and Russia—and then, of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a Communist if he is disappointed with Khrushchev and Russia, you know. I remember that argument—but more than that, I just can't say, because I just don't remember that far away the conversations. But we got, again, you know—the picture was sort of shaping up about Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. You tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up about Oswald. What did you mean by that?
Mrs.Voshinin. By that, that we wanted to stay away from him, definitely for a period. You know, that he was just—that he just was a dangerous person. For this reason, first of all, Soviets seldom let anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person—especially a person of non-Russian descent. Yet they let him live there. Right?
Mr.Jenner. They let him in in the first place?
Mrs.Voshinin. In the first place. So, they must have had some plans for him. He stayed there for a length of time. Right? I believe, 2 years.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. He went there in September of 1959 and left in—oh—the tail end of May or the first part of June 1962.
Mrs.Voshinin. 1962? So, it's three years. Right?
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Voshinin. Then, for these 3 years—this is all our own theory, we haveno——
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I know.
Mrs.Voshinin. You understand?
For these 3 years, he could have got his training? Right? Whatever it is.
Thirdly, his exit from Russia was so easy. With wife and children—with child, wife, and with suitcases—no problem there. Which is absolutely unnatural. Usually, American boys have such trouble getting their families out of Russia. You probably remember the cases.
And, thirdly, we believed that—we were expecting, rather, to hear from Oswald publicly some anti-Communist declaration, some, you know, reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know, we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in communism, came here sincerely—like people we know. For example, Eugene Lyons or Captain Khokhlov, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Spell that.
Mrs.Voshinin. Let me write it (writes out name). So, his behavior after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was unnatural. He was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back. Right?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. According to George, he was a great—he had great intellectual power; he was very clever person—definitely intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was—he couldn't find a job. Now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual person to go get his living lecturing against communism?
Mr.Jenner. Were you harkening back to your ownhistory——
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes. I might have done it if I hadn't had my own profession.
Mr.Jenner. That you were able to obtain positions?
Mrs.Voshinin. Everybody would be able to to obtain a position. Khokhlov, he was in Washington, D.C., even, I believe. I don't remember exactly what he was. But, anyway, all those people not only expressed their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with otherpeople——
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. But—the other point was that it would really help Oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? He would earn some money. Other people were earning their living by lecturing on anti-Communistic talk. So, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to the factory—or whatever he did, I don't know exactly, whatever work he worked—instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. Right?
Mr.Jenner. Right.
Mrs.Voshinin. From what we heard of him he never expressed himself for being anti-Communist. We remember that. We never heard a word of this.
Mr.Jenner. Did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to lecture?
Mrs.Voshinin. Not never. Because George was so emphatic about his mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really never occurred to me. I thought that he was an intellectual, very well read. Because George said that many times. He said, "He's a very interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person."
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever argue this with De Mohrenschildt—say, "Well, why doesn't he lecture? I don't understand this?"
Mrs.Voshinin. I remember I did ask that—and I don't remember the exact answer. Whatever it was, I don't remember. But, as far as I remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to Russia, or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd leave that up to him.
Mr.Davis. Did George De Mohrenschildt ever mention that Oswald spoke fluent Russian?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; he did. Uh-huh. He said that Oswald spoke very good Russian.
Mr.Davis. Did he ever discuss where he learned to speak Russian so fluently?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; in fact, he did not discuss or quote—I don't remember him discussing extensively Oswald's background or quoting what Oswald said about what. I tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you know, but just couldn't. I just don't remember.
Mr.Davis. I wonder if I might ask an opinion of you here? If he were working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in Russia for, say, 2 years, would it be possible to become that fluent in Russian—just from the fact of working—just from the fact of working there?
Mrs.Voshinin. I think so. Yes; I think so—because, after all, you rub shoulders with Russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the time. It's good that you ask the question, because there was one more suspicious thing about Oswald. According to hearsay, his wife said that Oswald had a very nice apartment in Russia—modern apartment. And they just don't give such apartments to anybody. You know, they usually have to earn that to get it.
Mr.Davis. Did she tell this to you?
Mrs.Voshinin. No, sir; I never met her. But I heard from other people—I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said that, I believe.
Mr.Davis. That they had a very nice apartment?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; that they had a very modern, nice apartment in Russia.
Mr.Jenner. What would a nice apartment in Russia be? Just one room?
Mrs.Voshinin. No.
Mr.Jenner. What concept did you have in your mind when Mrs. DeMohrenschildt said to you, "They had a very nice apartment in Russia?" What did you think they had?
Mrs.Voshinin. I didn't think of apartment. I immediately thought of why must they have it. I thought maybe he had a roomette with a bath and kitchen. Something like that, you know. Certainly not nice according to our standards here. That's for sure. But there was another little thing. Marina supposedly mentioned that Russians did not like him; that his workers actually hated him.
And that was another hint to me—that why did they hate him? Usually, Russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. They like foreigners. Now, why would they hate a guy? And I come to conclusion that maybe he reported on them—or something like that. You know, little by little—but do you understand, sir, that everything I say, taken separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. But you just put it together and it sort of tells something to us, you know.
Mr.Jenner. You go right ahead. What you put together and what impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. So, don't be embarrassed about it or hesitant. I want you to say, in giving these impressions, why, what you base them on—and I understand that you are rationalizing.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yeah; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Did you want to ask a question, Mr. Davis?
Mr.Davis. Do you recall if George De Mohrenschildt ever mentioned to you the fact that the Oswalds had been in Moscow for any period of time?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; he never did.
Mr.Davis. You don't recall anything about them being in Moscow?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't remember anyone mentioning them being in Moscow. Wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper—or maybe his mother mentioned it—his being in Moscow? Didn't she? I think his mother mentioned this in connection with his seeing some CIA man with the American Embassy in Moscow. I believe I did read something somewhere. Some of her gossip, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Some of her gossip?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to have you, when you're giving us these impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of thetime——
Mrs.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. And not influenced by what you have learned and read since November 22, 1963.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yeah; uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. And that's what you are doing, is it not?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Fine.
We interrupted you. You were relating your rationalization as to your fear or aversion to this person known as Lee Oswald, who had been in Russia and had come to America with his wife andchild——
Mrs.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. And why, in your mind at this time about which you speak, you were fearful that despite Mr. De Mohrenschildt's attempted reassurances to you that he, Oswald, wasn't acting like a person who was free of Russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to Russia, who you expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not, and these were things he wasn't doing—from which you concluded you had some misgivings, at least.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. And have you recounted all of that now?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You have completed your rationalizing statement in that connection?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; right.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Mrs. Voshinin, was there a period of time or a series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to the activities of Mr. De Mohrenschildt and also his present wife with respect to trips to Houston, Tex.?
Mrs.Voshinin. It didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his business affairs—but we just noticed that he was traveling to Texas.
Mr.Jenner. To Houston?
Mrs.Voshinin. I mean to Houston. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Were these regular?
Mrs.Voshinin. Quite regular. And usually it would coincide, somehow, with his next assignment. You see, you asked me to think at that time, prior to November 22, 1963. At that time, it did not bother us at all. We just didn't give much thought to that.
Mr.Jenner. But you noticed it?
Mrs.Voshinin. We noticed it definitely. Yes. Because he was always expecting some telephone calls from Houston. If they would be at our house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone number, you know, to call him—and it would be from Houston.
But he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely impossible to remember everywhere where he went. I know that he went a lot to New York on business; he went a lot to Philadelphia on his private business—private life. Of course, that would include Dee Dee Sharples—concerning his third wife and children. They had disagreement there.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these Houston trips recently?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; recently. And we discussed also those Houston trips before November 22—because our friends, the Jitkoffs, they mentioned to us that they don't like George at all and they didn't want us to bring him to their house. And I asked why, and she didn't want to tell exactly why, but she said something about some people—some character whom he is visiting in Houston.
Mr.Jenner. Character?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you gather from that? Did she use the word "character"?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes;Teep[phonetic] is "type" in Russia. That means "character" in English. You know, it means type of a person.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I appreciate what you mean by character—but what kind of a person?
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, unsavory character.
Mr.Jenner. Unsavory character?
Mrs.Voshinin. I understood politically unsavory.
Mr.Jenner. Politically unsavory?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right. That's what I understood.
And also Mr. and Mrs. Jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise that we became friendly with De Mohrenschildts again—and I assumed that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in Houston.
Mr.Jenner. Did they name the person?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't remember their naming the person; no. But she said something—I just don't remember, really, what she said. But we thought that the Jitkoffs don't know George De Mohrenschildt too well, you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you know, the bad character of George. Because, if you know him well, you can see why he thinks. [laughing]
Mr.Jenner. Did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect on the matter, that the trips to Houston could possibly have had some connection with Oswald?
Mrs.Voshinin. Never. No. In fact, we didn't think of Oswald very much.
Mr.Jenner. I am talking about your rationalizing last nightor——
Mrs.Voshinin. No. It never did. No. I was quite certain that it had something to do with his Haitian assignment. It was rather business trips.
Mr.Jenner. But you do know that you were not aware of what the character of his business was in Houston, if he had any?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You just assumed he had business in Houston?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't know?
Mrs.Voshinin. I didn't know.
(Off-the-record discussion follows.)
Mr.Jenner. Now, we have inquired of Mr. Voshinin about the famous walking trip of the De Mohrenschildts from the border of Mexico and the United States to Panama.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Did he make such a trip?
Mrs.Voshinin. He says he did—and he brought some films and some photo pictures—photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there was that volcano eruption, you know—so I assume that he did make the trip.
Mr.Jenner. Did you receive any cards from them as they wended their way down?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; we were not on speaking terms with them.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, this is the period when you were not friendly?
Mrs.Voshinin. No.
Mr.Jenner. And afterward, when they gotback——
Mrs.Voshinin. We met them at Ballens.
Mr.Jenner. And some of the friendship was restored?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And you did see moving picturesof——
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; of their jungle life.
Mr.Jenner. Jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt included?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; but, of course, it was either he or she—because one of them was taking pictures.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. But you saw representations in the movie film ofhim——
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and you saw alsoher——
Mrs.Voshinin. Right.
Mr.Jenner. In the moving film when he was taking, or you assumed?
Mrs.Voshinin. Right; uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. That drew your attention to a particular incident, did it?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; it did not. It only—you know what I was actually wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures could have been taken elsewhere but in Mexico, you know. But, then, when I saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know. Because I just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that distance.
Mr.Jenner. The volcano eruption—did that sequence of frames in the movie strip, did it include pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. It was a very beautiful picture.
Mr.Jenner. And did the movie film also show him in that area?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; Uh-uh.
Mr.Jenner. Did they say where the volcano was?
Mrs.Voshinin. I am not sure they said where it was.
Mr.Jenner. Yucatan?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't think it was Yucatan. No.
Mr.Jenner. What is your best recollection?
Mrs.Voshinin. Somewhere near Parikutin, I believe. Somewhere there.
Mr.Jenner. Spell that, please.
Mrs.Voshinin. [Spelling] P-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n—because this is one of the recently erupted volcanoes in Mexico—Parikutin.
Mr.Jenner. All right. When was this event—the walking trip from the border to Panama?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't know. Chronologically, you mean, when was this?
Mr.Jenner. Well, give me the time, first, the year—as you best recall now.
Mrs.Voshinin. I really cannot do that. Because it was in 1959 that Khrushchev came to this country, right?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. I believe so.
Mrs.Voshinin. So, before that, we broke our relationship, right? And we restored it after the trip.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, the trip came after Mr. Khrushchev had visited this country?
Mrs.Voshinin. Visited this country. And it was 1961, I would say. They returned probably in 1961.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated invasion of Cuba?
Mrs.Voshinin. You mean, that President Kennedyis——
Mr.Davis. Bay of Pigs.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; the Bay of Pigs.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; I do remember that.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when was this walking trip with respect to that event—at the same time, a little bit before, a little after?
Mrs.Voshinin. You know, I couldn't say absolutely. I'm very bad on dates—and I don't remember even the date of the Bay of Pigs. When was that?
Mr.Jenner. Now, you've put me in a bad spot.
Mr.Davis. Well, it was in—shortly after 1960. It would be about March of 1960.
Mrs.Voshinin. Right.
Mr.Jenner. The President was elected in November 1960.
Mr.Davis. It was very shortly after that.
Mr.Jenner. Well, the invasion of the Bay of Pigs occurred after the President's election, and my recollection is that it was in December, December of 1960, or January of 1961.
Mr.Davis. I think it was probably about that time—or in February.
Mr.Jenner. It was sometime very shortly after he took office. During the first 2 or 3 months of 1961. It wasn't long after he had been inaugurated and he was inaugurated January 9, I think it was, 1961.
Mr.Davis. The 20th is inauguration.
Mr.Jenner. Twentieth of January?
Mr.Davis. Yes. I think it was in late February or early March.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that's reasonably accurate.
Mrs.Voshinin. Uh-huh. Maybe they were in Haiti at that time. I don't know really. Really, I'm afraid to say.
Mr.Jenner. They might have been in Haiti?
Mrs.Voshinin. In Haiti. Because I know that they told us that on the way back, they stopped for about a month in Haiti to get their breath—to rest a little.
Mr.Jenner. On the way back from the Mexican walking trip?
Mrs.Voshinin. From the Mexican walking trip; yes. They walked through Panama, from there they took airplane to Haiti and stayed there a month—and then came back.
Mr.Jenner. Did they ever say anything or did you ever have the impression that they had visited Cuba?
Mrs.Voshinin. No. No. But something—I think he did not visit Cuba. I believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in Cuba, something like that, on the airport. But I'm not sure about that at all. I believe he said.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a time when he visited Ghana?
Mrs.Voshinin. There was; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Well, tell us about that.
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, that was after he came back from Yugoslavia. I don't remember before or after he went second time to Yugoslavia. I think it was before he went second time to Yugoslavia. And I am pretty sure that he was in Ghana because he brought a newspaper—Ghana newspaper—and there was a picture, small picture. I didn't read the article, but I noticed there a line which said, "A well-known philatelist, George De Mohrenschildt"—which caught my eye. So, I thought, my God! That's one of George's antics again! [Laughter.]
Mr.Davis. Was he a stamp collector?
Mrs.Voshinin. No.
Mr.Davis. And this article said he was?
Mrs.Voshinin. That's what the article said; yes. But I just glanced through it, I mean. That's what caught my eye. That's all.
And then he also brought some photographs from Ghana—so I'm pretty sure he was there.
Mr.Jenner. You saw some photographs from Ghana?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; from Ghana.
Mr.Jenner. And you saw this newspaper?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; and I saw the newspaper—and I believe this newspaper was in English. The French newspaper was from Haiti—right. And the English one was from Ghana; yes.
Mr.Jenner. It was a Ghana newspaper published in English?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; in English language—written in English language. And that's what it said there.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever talk to him about that?
Mrs.Voshinin. I believe so. I believe I asked him, and he said that he went there on account of some Swedish, I believe, businessmen to look for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you know—that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you are geologists looking for oil, you know.
But then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of George's trip because George repeatedly hinted that he was doing some services for the State Department, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Of the United States?
Mrs.Voshinin. Of the United States; yes. And under those circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you know. And maybe I assumed that, but he definitely hinted—made certain hints. He never said that he is an employee, though, you know. For example, about his trip to Yugoslavia, he would say, "I made it with the knowledge of the State Department." You know. And then when he came back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. And then on few other foreign trips, he also said that—sort of, you know, hinted that that was what.
Mr.Jenner. What foreign trip?
Mrs.Voshinin. He was traveling to Europe several times, I forget which.
Mr.Jenner. Yugoslavia, Ghana?
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, let me have—I have it on piece of paper.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, you have?
Mrs.Voshinin. [Referring to paper which she took from her bag.] Prior to 1955, he told me, he was in Cuba. He was drilling there. That was before—long before Castro. Right?
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Voshinin. He was drilling some well—made some very good oil discovery in Cuba.
Then he worked in Mexico. That's what he said. Prior to 1955 sometime. Then he went to Yugoslavia from 1957 to 1958, I believe. That's what it says here. Then he visited Europe back on his way from Yugoslavia. And he brought some pictures from Poland, Sweden, and from France. Those three countries.
Mr.Jenner. Did you recognize any of them?
Mrs.Voshinin. No, sir; I haven't been in either of this countries. And I believe he went to Poland, he said, because, you know, he lived formerly in Poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a look at it. And then he said that he went to France to meet his first wife and child. I believe she is—I believe Alex was at that time in France. And he went to Sweden for business matters. I understood that some Swedish people arranged the Ghana trip of his.
Then, also, on the way to Ghana, he went to Europe. I believe he said to Sweden again and then to Ghana. And then—I'm not sure whether he was twice in Ghana or only once. I'm quite sure once he was there. Then, he went to Haiti several times.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware that he was making these trips. Now, whether he actually made them or not, you don'tknow——
Mrs.Voshinin. No; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Other than that he told you that?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; and then he disappeared, you know. And he would tell us and then, of course, go away. But, for example, Ghana is quite certain, I think, because of this newspaper—so, that's why. And, then, we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "Ghana" on the airplane, I mean, but——[Laughter.]
And then I noticed he visited—he mentioned that he visited—I don't know—he mentioned that he visited Guatemala and Dominican Republic sometime in between.
Mr.Jenner. Sometime in between what?
Mrs.Voshinin. In between his walking trip and 1955.
Mr.Jenner. That was in between 1955 and his walking trip that he had visited Guatemala and the Dominican Republic?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; he mentioned, at least, visiting them—but I'm not sure.
Mr.Jenner. But you were aware of his absences from Dallas?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; definitely.
Mr.Jenner. And the general conversation in the community in which you moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be making?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his experiences in these various places and countries?
Mrs.Voshinin. Sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what his business there was. Nobody was interested in that anyway.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. He wouldn't tell anything about it. But he would tell, yes; about—he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from Europe, from Ghana, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture postcards or things he had purchased?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; there were taken photographs.
Mr.Jenner. Ones that he took?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
And also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, Now, I don't remember—from Yugoslavia we definitely got a card. Yes; we got a card from Sweden from him; and from Haiti we got a card.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you got cards fromHaiti——
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Before this last Haiti trip?
Mrs.Voshinin. I believe so; yes; I don't remember very well; yes.
You know, when he went to Haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did not get any cards from him then. But before that and then after they moved to Haiti we did.
Mr.Jenner. You did get cards?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware of his departing for Haiti on this present sojourn of his?
Mrs.Voshinin. Oh, yes; quite.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that. When you first learned of it, what he said, what she said, and then his departure.
Mrs.Voshinin. A few months before their departure, he told us that he is working on getting a job with Haiti and that—I understood—that foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with the State Department again. It was not just invitation of the Haiti Government.
And he worked on that for a few months, and he was traveling quite a lot.
Mr.Jenner. Back and forth to Haiti?
Mrs.Voshinin. Not to Haiti. I don't know where. Because sometimes he won't even mention where he goes, just when—or sometimes on business trips.
Then, he went to Haiti to arrange the trip. He came back and he brought from Haiti a newspaper in which—French newspaper—in French—and it stated there about the survey which was given to De Mohrenschildt & Co. I don't know who the company is. And he brought also some statement from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. It wasn't a statement. Itwas a letter from the bank saying that $20,000 was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and I understand it was by Haitian Government. That's what it was—as far as I remember.
Then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money in sisal plantation—[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. You know, making in rope.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; you use sisal to make rope.
Mrs.Voshinin. And I asked him whether he was going just to manage sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time. He says, "No; I want to invest some money into that."
And I understood that his intention was to settle down in Haiti. It's possible, you know. He was looking for some country for some longer time to settle down and live in that country. He was considering Costa Rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very much. And then he decided that Haiti would be very nice place to settle down, also.
Mr.Jenner. This walking trip down through Mexico and Central and South America, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes, I think so. And she said she was very ill on that trip.
Mr.Jenner. She was?
Mrs.Voshinin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. In these movies, how were they dressed?
Mrs.Voshinin. According to the film, he was wearing shorts and she was wearing very torn dress—which looked like that Tarzan lady on the films, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. And some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything on [laughing], with very little dress on.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get the impression that this was deliberate because they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked?
Mrs.Voshinin. Robbed, you mean.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; robbed.
Mrs.Voshinin. No, I thought it was more practical—because the branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing you have always it is the better. However, they were traveling with a mule which probably would be considered by Southern American robbers as valuable thing. So, they could have been robbed. In fact, they were attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. You know, they were shooting.
But, they were very poorly dressed because Jeanne told me that they were taken in the cities for paupers—they were mistaken for paupers, and people would lend them money.
Mr.Jenner. Give them pesos?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes [laughing].
Mr.Jenner. All of which, I am sure, Mr. De Mohrenschildt enjoyed thoroughly?
Mrs.Voshinin. Tremendously [laughing].
Mr.Jenner. Now, if you can remember any more, I wish you would tell us about De Mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the Oswalds and the impressions that you gained of the Oswalds—as to how they got along whether he treated her well or poorly?
Mrs.Voshinin. Oswalds—his wife?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. Treated very poorly. Because De Mohrenschildt told us that he was beating her. Then, she ran away from him and De Mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. And after the reconciliation, Jeanne mentioned twice that Marina had blue eyes—was beaten again, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Black and blue eyes?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them returning to Russia?
Mrs.Voshinin. Either of whom?
Mr.Jenner. Either of the Oswalds?
Mrs.Voshinin. Returning to Russia? No; I don't remember. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Jenner. No mention of the fact—if it was a fact—that Oswald wanted Marina to return to Russia?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; I never heard that.
Mr.Jenner. Or, that they both desired to return to Russia?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; I never heard that.
Mr.Jenner. Just nothing at allconcerning——
Mrs.Voshinin. Nothing at all concerning that.
Mr.Jenner. Any conversation that came to your attention with respect to Marina undertaking to have some command of the English language and the reaction of Oswald to that?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; that was discussed by De Mohrenschildt. And George thought that Marina wanted very much to study English and that Lee prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. And I remember that Jeanne said something that he found some English book that she had, was trying to learn English behind his back, and he was very angry.
Incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed against Oswald, you know. Because the why—you know, the reason that he gave. Why would he want that?
Because, really, there was one more point that was very strange about Oswald—my feelings were. He sort of wanted to cut off the communication of Marina—even with Russian people. Because he was so unpleasant to Russians—to those folks around who tried to help her, you know. He was quite rude, quite unpleasant—and, for some reason, we got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate with people, to learn English, or to be together with Russians.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about that. That's why I asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became acquainted. This was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in which you moved is concerned?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it that that community was Bouhe, De Mohrenschildts—and however you may have liked or disliked them in their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? Now, this would be especially true, for example, of Marina—that you'd like to bring her into the circle?
Mrs.Voshinin. I really can't say because we are not very close with that circle, St. Nicholas circle, you know—St. Nicholas Parish circle.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I really am not thinking about that particular parish.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. I'm trying to put the background to what was bothering you—that the normal thing that you expected—would expect of thesepeople——
Mrs.Voshinin. Oh, yeah. I understand you now. Yeah. Quite.
Mr.Jenner. Was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in Russian?
Mrs.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or otherwise to acquire facility with the Englishlanguage——
Mrs.Voshinin. Quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. That's the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country—you know, just do it as soon as possible. Right?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. And what did you understand with respect to her education?
Mrs.Voshinin. I understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not have a higher education because she was too young in age and I believe that George mentioned that she went 2 years to college. Now, that wouldn't be college in Russia. It might besomething——
Mr.Jenner. No. It would be something like junior college here?
Mrs.Voshinin. Juniors or something like that. It would give her technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology.
Mr.Jenner. Did there come to your attention, in moving about your friendsand the people here, her general level of erudition and education and intelligence in comparison with his?
Mrs.Voshinin. No. Now, of course, what I'm saying is hearsay, right?
Mr.Jenner. I appreciate that.
Mrs.Voshinin. But several people said differently. For example, I heard from the ladies—from the Russian ladies of our parish that she was—you could see that she comes from an intelligent family, from a nice, you know, well-educated family. She has good manners and everything and she was quite a clever girl. Now, then, that she was sort of, I thought, more clever than he was. You know, some people who are moredeveloped——
Mr.Jenner. And more educated?
Mrs.Voshinin. And more educated. Yes. While George insisted on just the opposite. He was absolutely impressed with Oswald's mental powers, for some reason. And he sort of looked down at Marina, you know, a little bit.
So, I really don't know what to think.
Mr.Jenner. When was the last you heard from the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs.Voshinin. That was Christmas. We received a card from them.
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes; it was in 1963.
Mr.Jenner. And what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to that time—that is, while they were still in Haiti?
Mrs.Voshinin. With the De Mohrenschildts before Christmas 1963?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, she wrote me two letters; I wrote her one letter.
Mr.Jenner. Have you had any contact with the children—either of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt or of Mr. De Mohrenschildt—recently?
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, we were visited by her daughter—by Chris—twice. Once it was before Christmasand——
Mr.Jenner. But after November 22?
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes. Right. It was about 3 weeks before Christmas, I believe, or 2 weeks. And now they were recently here, just—they left on March 15. They left Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Did they say anything during the course of this social visit, or visit here, about the De Mohrenschildts—George and Jeanne or Jean or Eugene?
Mrs.Voshinin. Well, Eugenia is right. You know they said so much, I just hate to repeat it because I just don't know how much they exaggerated. They were angry with both of them and I just don't believethat——
Mr.Jenner. Well, I don't want you to repeat all the personal things. I wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that they were angry with George De Mohrenschildt and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Angry in what sense?
Mrs.Voshinin. Uh—they said that they were not very hospitable for one thing and, for another things, they—well, they said that George and Jeanne took a turn for the worse politically.
Mr.Jenner. Well, now, would you develop that, please?
Mrs.Voshinin. I hate to do that, because I just don't know how true it all is.
Mr.Jenner. I understand that all you are doing is telling us what they said. It is pure hearsay. I understand.
Mrs.Voshinin. Pure hearsay of angry children.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. That's what it is. Right?
Well, they said that the majority of their trouble with Jeanne and George was because they were shooting their mouths off there—pro-left and against United States—something to that effect; Chris said that George was making the most—the funniest accusations—statements in public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Voshinin. That he does not believe that Oswald murdered the President; that he believes that rightwing or FBI, I am not sure—and this was, of course, awfully shocking to children.
Mr.Jenner. He believed that the rightwing or the FBI what?
Mrs.Voshinin. That's what the children said.
Mr.Jenner. What?
Mrs.Voshinin. Murdered the President. That's what the children said and I, franklydon't——
Mr.Jenner. You don't put much stock in it?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. Did the children express any opinion as to whether these were rantings or nonsenseor——
Mrs.Voshinin. Of course, they were outraged by the statement, like everybody is. But what I want to say only that sometimes George gets so bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what he says. So, that's why I believe that you cannot approach George or Jeanne to this extent with standard measures. You cannot measure them by standard measures at all—what they say or what they do even. They require different measures.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that opinion on your part is something that we necessarily must weigh. We are trying to find out about these personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings and rantings and nonsense. These things come to our attention, Mrs. Voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run them down. The fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving themconsideration——
Mrs.Voshinin. I realize that.
Mr.Jenner. As to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay andrumor——
Mrs.Voshinin. I realize that.
Mr.Jenner. Even though you, as a dedicated and loyal American, you would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And we have to exercise some judgment.
Now, I think I have pretty well completed my questioning of you. I would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit.
Is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation? It might be a source leading us to something that might be helpful—that you would like to suggest to us? People who might know, incidents that occurred that I haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? Anything at all that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of the assassination of the President, John F. Kennedy?
Mrs.Voshinin. I can't think of anything. No.
Mr.Jenner. You don't think of anything?
Mrs.Voshinin. No. I can't think of anything—people that might be useful.
Mr.Jenner. Well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful? It might be somebody different from the De Mohrenschildts or it might be an incident that occurred.