Mrs.Voshinin. [Pausing before reply.] You know, I heard the rumors that—like everybody else heard—which you have heard definitely—but I don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. That's the trouble. I don't know any particular person who could throw any light on that thing.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; all right. We have occasionally been off the record and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to your testimony, which I failed to bring out?
Mrs.Voshinin. No; I think that we covered the ground pretty thoroughly.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything that took place in those discussions that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your testimony, which I, in turn, failed to bring out?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't quite understand that question.
Mr.Jenner. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Is there anything in the discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as I brought it out that ought to be on the record?
Mrs.Voshinin. I don't remember very well what was off the record and what was on. But I don't think so. I think everything was on.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You think I have brought out everything?
Mrs.Voshinin. Everything; yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Now, Mrs. Voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly I should also say the right—I must say the right—to read over your deposition when it has been transcribed by the reporter—which we hope will be next week. Either I will be here or other representatives of the Commission will be in Dallas for at least the next 2 weeks. You and your husband call in and ask for Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and he'll know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read it.
Mrs.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something, and you will want to make some change. And you may have a copy of your deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her regular rates are.
Mrs.Voshinin. All right.
Mr.Jenner. And you may purchase one. Your husband, I should say, expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box [laughter].
Mrs.Voshinin. A historical document!
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Voshinin, thank you so much. I hope you didn't think I was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely.
Mrs.Voshinin. No; not at all.
Mr.Davis. And I enjoyed your accent immensely. It has brought back very wonderful memories for me.
Mrs.Voshinin. Thank you.
The testimony of Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Voshinin, would you stand and be sworn, please?
Do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Voshinin. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Your name is Igor Vladimir Voshinin?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Voshinin, the Presidential Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy desires to inquire of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons you may have known here in Dallas or in the Dallas area, who had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald, or information that you might have that would help the Commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy.
Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, with which was enclosed copy of Executive Order No. 11130, creating a Commission?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. And Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress of the United States authorizing the Commission?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of theCommission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to proceed to take your deposition.
You reside where?
Mr.Voshinin. 3504 Mockingbird Lane in Highland Park, Tex.
Mr.Jenner. And is Highland Park a suburb of Dallas?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right; but it is an independent community.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; how long have you resided in Highland Park, Tex.?
Mr.Voshinin. Since 1961.
Mr.Jenner. Prior to that time where did you reside?
Mr.Voshinin. In University Park.
Mr.Jenner. Also asuburb——
Mr.Voshinin. An independent community and suburb.
Mr.Jenner. And for how long did you reside there?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, since 1957, I guess.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Voshinin. Now, it may be late in 1956.
Mr.Jenner. What is your business or occupation or profession?
Mr.Voshinin. I am a professional engineer.
Mr.Jenner. And by whom are you employed, or are you an independent engineer?
Mr.Voshinin. At this time I am employed by Mullen & Powell, consulting engineers.
Mr.Jenner. Would you spell that name, please?
Mr.Voshinin. [Spelling] M-u-l-l-e-n & P-o-w-e-l-l.
Mr.Jenner. What area of engineering do you direct your attention?
Mr.Voshinin. In structural engineering.
Mr.Jenner. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr.Voshinin. I am.
Mr.Jenner. By naturalization or birth?
Mr.Voshinin. By naturalization.
Mr.Jenner. And when were you naturalized?
Mr.Voshinin. I have to see [looking through billfold]. It must be 1954—I'm sorry to delay you.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, take it easy. We have plenty of time. Don't let it worry you a bit.
(The witness hands card to Mr. Jenner.)
Mr.Jenner. [Reading] March 7, 1955?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. In the light of that, Mr. Voshinin, in what country were you born?
Mr.Voshinin. I was born in Russia before the Revolution.
Mr.Jenner. And how old a man are you?
Mr.Voshinin. I was born in 1906—so, therefore, I am 58 years old.
Mr.Jenner. You are 1 year older than I am. I'll be 57 next June. And did you alone, or your family, come directly to the United States from Russia?
Mr.Voshinin. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Without detail, tell us how you came to this country and approximately when.
Mr.Voshinin. Well, we were living in southern Russia, which was in the hands of the White Army, and when the Communists advanced, since we were close, our family left from a port on the Black Sea.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when was this?
Mr.Voshinin. That was in 1920—early in 1920.
Mr.Jenner. You were then 14 years old, approximately?
Mr.Voshinin. Thirteen—yeah.
Me and my mother we left first for Greece and then to Turkey, and my father left directly to Turkey and we met in Constantinople, now Istanbul in Turkey.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mr.Voshinin. And, after that, we altogether went to Yugoslavia where we lived up to this last war.
Mr.Jenner.1940——
Mr.Voshinin. In 1942, the Germans forced me to go to work to Germany, and actually, I jumped their train and remained in Austria close to Yugoslavia. And after—by the end of the war when the Communists were close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come toKempten——
Mr.Jenner. To what?
Mr.Voshinin. To Kempten in south Bavaria—[spelling] K-e-m-p-t-en—and that's where we met the American Army.
Mr.Jenner. What you mean is that the American Army in its advance reached the Bavarian area and freed you?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, the American Army came to Kempten on 25th of April and we reached Kempten on the 12th of April. So, I was just 13 days in Germany before the American Army.
Mr.Jenner. Are you married?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. And what is your wife's name?
Mr.Voshinin. Natalie.
Mr.Jenner. And where did you marry her?
Mr.Voshinin. Belgrade, Yugoslavia.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mr.Voshinin. It was in 1940.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a family?
Mr.Voshinin. No; I have no children. I have only my father here.
Mr.Jenner. When did you come to the United States?
Mr.Voshinin. Uh—it was November 12, 1947.
Mr.Jenner. And your wife accompanied you at that time?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And you settled where in this country?
Mr.Voshinin. We settled first in New York.
Mr.Jenner. City?
Mr.Voshinin. New York City, for some time, then we mostly lived in New Jersey.
Mr.Jenner. Did you receive a higher education—that is, an education beyond high school equivalent?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Would you tell us what that was, please, and where?
Mr.Voshinin. I have bachelor degree in civil engineering from the University of Belgrade, 1931, and the master degree in civil engineering from the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, in 1955.
Mr.Jenner. And the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute is in New York City, or its environs?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right—in Brooklyn.
Mr.Jenner. And you have pursued your profession in civilengineering——
Mr.Voshinin. Since 1931, up to now—except for the time of war.
Mr.Jenner. Would you give me the dates again when you were in Yugoslavia?
Mr.Voshinin. From the middle of 1920 to 1942.
Mr.Jenner. 1942? Is that when the Germans sought to bring you to Germany and you escaped then to Austria?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. That was an escape, wasn't it?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. Because they dragged everybody to the Rhine, you know—and somehow I managed, with other people, to get out of that train. There were hundreds of people who got out.
Mr.Davis. Did you stay in Austria, then, throughout the war?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; almost out through the war.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Austria was occupied by the Germans also, was it not?
Mr.Voshinin. Austria was occupied also as well as Yugoslavia. And, of course, you had to go to the labor office—because otherwise I would be arrested immediately.
Mr.Davis. When you'd go there, they'd let you stay in Austria?
Mr.Voshinin. You see, every labor office was grabbing for labor force—whoever would come, you know. And, therefore, they would not disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. So, I—when I got out of the train with twoother fellows—and, of course, it has cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know.
Mr.Jenner. You had to do a little bribery?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah, to three persons there—including the guard which was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. When we came out, we had seen about a hundred people who did the same thing—so, it probably was going—big business there.
Mr.Davis. When did you come to Dallas?
Mr.Voshinin. 1955—about the first of September.
Mr.Jenner. You were naturalized in New York City?
Mr.Voshinin. No, sir; in New Brunswick, N.J.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, New Brunswick, N.J.?
Mr.Voshinin. New Brunswick, N.J. Yeah. We mostly preferred to live in New Jersey, you know. It's a little better air. I'm an asthmatic, you know.
Mr.Jenner. You're asthmatic?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; I'm asthmatic—and, therefore, I have to choose my climate.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Voshinin—was she likewise born in Russia?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right. Only she's 12 years younger so when her parents took her out of Russia, then she was 1 year old.
Mr.Jenner. She probably wouldn't remember then.
Mr.Voshinin. She doesn't know anything about it.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when you came to Dallas in September of 1955, had you had any advance acquaintance with anybody here?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; I knew two persons whom I met through the church.
Mr.Jenner. And what church is that?
Mr.Voshinin. Uh—the church in Houston.
Mr.Jenner. What is the name of it and what is its denomination?
Mr.Voshinin. Greek Orthodox Church.
Mr.Jenner. Greek Orthodox Church?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; I don't know what the church's name is. I think it's St. Vladimir—but I'm not sure.
Mr.Jenner. St. Vladimir?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; I think so—but I'm not quite sure that was the name. And the thing is that we wanted to settle in Houstonfirst——
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Voshinin. But we didn't like the climate. And the people there they gave us the name of Mr. Raigorodsky—Paul Raigorodsky.
Mr.Jenner. Spell that last name, please.
Mr.Voshinin. R-a-i-g-o-r-o-d-s-k-y.
Mr.Jenner. Is he of Russian descent—or Yugoslavian or what?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; Russian.
Mr.Jenner. He had preceded you to this country?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. How long?
Mr.Voshinin. He was the first Russian immigrant who settled here in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Voshinin. And he is a millionaire—a very rich man.
Mr.Jenner. Had you known him?
Mr.Voshinin. No; we didn't know him personally but the priest there, the pastor, you know, of our denomination in Houston said that when you go to Dallas—we said that we passed through Dallas going to Houston and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there. So we said, "Well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there, but we don't know anybody."
So, he said, "Well, why don't you—we have two men who are able to help you—and this is Mr. Raigorodsky and Mr. Bouhe—George Bouhe." The Russians are referring—joking about Raigorodsky—they call him, "the Czar," here.
Mr.Jenner. Yeah.
Mr.Voshinin. So—he's an old man—and so when we came, then the next day—it was during our vacation in 1955—and so we went to see Raigorodsky and then we went to see Bouhe. And they told us that there is a church of ourdenomination here on McKinney and a few other just useful things—nothing in particular.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Well, the main thing I wanted—when you came to Dallas, you didn't know anybody?
Mr.Voshinin. No.
Mr.Jenner. You then became acquainted with Mr. Bouhe?
Mr.Voshinin. Bouhe—and Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Raigorodsky we kind of liked—and Mr. Bouhe we kind of disliked.
Mr.Davis. Was there any special reason for that other thanjust——
Mr.Voshinin. Well, Mr. Bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to mix in theiraffairs——
Mr.Jenner. Their personal affairs?
Mr.Voshinin. And tell them what to do and what not to do. And I don't need a nurse here now. I like to listen to people's advice but I don't like to have a nurse. I'm grown up. That's why I don't like—didn't like his approach too well.
Mr.Jenner. Bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a little aggressive in your personal affairs?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. Well, he is with everybody. He is an old bachelor, you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do.
Mr.Jenner. May I inquire with respect to that—your aversion, at least initially, to Mr. Bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal affairs—particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and what not to do?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes. Well, everybody complaining the same way.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Voshinin. Yes. Although I don't mind him helping people.
Mr.Jenner. Specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has it, with any political views that Mr. Bouhe may entertain?
Mr.Voshinin. No.
Mr.Jenner. And I mean "political" in the sense of his views on government—communism—conservatism—whatever it might be?
Mr.Voshinin. No. But my impression is that he is rather conservative—in Russian politics, I mean. He always talks about the Czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot somewhere.
Mr.Jenner. In Russia?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Do you regard him, however, as a loyal American?
Mr.Voshinin. Uh—well, I don't know. We never talked about any American politics with him. So I regard him as far as I don't have any proof otherwise.
Mr.Jenner. You don't suspect him, however, of any Communist affiliation?
Mr.Voshinin. Well—uh—one is accustomed to suspect everybody.
Mr.Jenner. Well, no more than that?
Mr.Voshinin. But—uh—no more than that, I would say.
Mr.Jenner. Now, your acquaintance with people here in Dallas broadened, did it not, as time went on?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. I take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was largely among that segment of the community or society here of people from Russia, Yugoslavia, and Central European countries?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah—and Lebanon.
Mr.Jenner. Lebanon, also?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah—well, those people who come to church.
Mr.Jenner. Your acquaintance, initially, was among churchfolks——
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Who attended your church?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that was the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; the Greek Orthodox Church, here on McKinney Avenue—because there is another Greek Orthodox Church on Swiss. That's the church where all the Greek people go, and all the non-Greek people went on McKinney, because on McKinney the service was in the English language.
Mr.Jenner. What is the name of the parish?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, there were two parishes there.
Mr.Jenner. Yeah.
Mr.Voshinin. On McKinney, there were two parishes in one church. One was called the St. Nicholas Parish and the other, the St. Seraphim Parish.
The St. Seraphim Parish is the English-speaking parish where the services were in English. And at most times that's the parish who held their services there; whereas the building belonged to St. Nicholas Parish—who had their services once in 5 weeks, with their pastor coming from Houston.
Mr.Jenner. And that wasFather——
Mr.Voshinin. Father Alexander.
Mr.Jenner. And the Father of the other parish is Dimitri?
Mr.Voshinin. Father Dimitri Royster.
Mr.Jenner. Royster?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. And the St. Nicholas Parish secretary-treasurer is Mr. Bouhe.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. He's the motivating force, is he?
Mr.Voshinin. He's the motivating force there—and everything [laughter].
Our sympathies switched very quickly to St. Seraphim Church and I became a member of the church council there at St. Seraphim and—uh—I didn't like to be a member of St. Nicholas any more.
Mr.Jenner. Is that largely because of the aggressiveness of Mr. Bouhe?
Mr.Voshinin. And because of the irregularity of the church meeting once in 5 weeks—and many other things—and because I believe that the church in this country should be in the language of the country. I think it's natural—it's what it should be in order that our denomination can exist at all—because in two, three generations, the people lose their national language, and then there is no church. Besides that, uh—I—what did I want to say? Besides that, I don't think that's a good idea to divide Christians by their language in thousand and one churches. We have people of six or seven national backgrounds and is—it's absolutely senseless in serving the service in some other language than the language in which everybody can understand. And, therefore, we switched to the St. Seraphim Church—of which we have remained members up to now.
Mr.Jenner. Were these two parishes and the church itself—that is, the Greek Orthodox Church consisting of the two parishes—is that the medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say—from Russia, from Yugoslavia,from——
Mr.Voshinin. Lebanon; yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Became acquainted?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; yes. Everybody knows everybody.
Mr.Jenner. Everybody knew everybody?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And all rumors and everything else passed back and forth through this group?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. And is it true that arising out of this common interest in the Greek Orthodox Church and the two parishes that a measure of social intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; that is true.
Mr.Jenner. And you people generally became acquainted, one with the other, in not only your church activity but your general social activity as well?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah—well, I wouldn't say "general" social activity, because, in addition to the church, I meet people through my office and my wife met them too, so—but partially, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. At least, through that medium, whether you wanted to or not you sort of kept track of everybody?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Everybody knew something about what the other fellow was doing or would like to?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah—and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files andstill keeps files on everybody—when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Voshinin. He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you."
I say, "What for?"
And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things—so I keep a file on everybody."
Then, later, the parishes separated, as you know.
Mr.Jenner. The parishes separated. Yes. I've heard that.
Mr.Voshinin. Because, somehow, their life together, you know, became unbearable and finally the St. Seraphim Church decided to move out.
Mr.Jenner. Of that building?
Mr.Voshinin. Of that building on McKinney. And we bought a house on Newton and Throckmorton, as you know.
And the St. Nicholas Church remained within empty house which they only used once in 5 weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that house and it was torn away—torn down. And now there is a Gulf station on McKinney.
Mr.Jenner. A Gulf gasoline station?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at the house of Mr. and Mrs. Tsinzadze (phonetic).
Mr.Jenner. Hold it. Can you spell that?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, I don't know how to spell that. This is a Georgian name. These are Georgian people.
Mr.Jenner. By "Georgian," youmean——
Mr.Voshinin. From Georgia.
Mr.Jenner. From the Georgia part of Russia?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. It's the [spelling] T-s-i-n-z-a-d-z-e, something like that.
Mr.Jenner. That's good enough.
Mr.Voshinin. And we have been perhaps two or three times since that in Tsinzadze's house—because my father, I think, goes to confession there. He cannot go to the English confession. He prefers to have his confession in the Russian language. So, they still have, a pastor coming there—but not from Houston. That pastor who was in Houston is now in Johannesburg, South Africa. And they have a retired pastor from Galveston—from the Galveston Greek Orthodox Church—who comes there once in 5 weeks or so and they have services.
So, perhaps once in the year we go there—or twice.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Voshinin, this is very interesting to me. Would you describe this community of people in your own words? Tell me about the community as a group.
Mr.Voshinin. St. Nicholas?
Mr.Jenner. No; the whole—thisRussian——
Mr.Voshinin. They are not only Russians there. Of course, Russians—you said Russians—Yugoslav, Lebanese—but in addition to that, there are those people—Estonians and Latvians. You see, there are a lot of Latvians and Estonians who are Greek Orthodox. Well, you see, there is a national differentiation now—yeah—in addition, I can take another nationality. These are people—west Ukrainians and Carpathian Russians. These people have former Austrian citizenship and Polish citizenship. They come from that part which is known as Galicia.
So, nowdays, the people who are in St. Nicholas parish—we call that "Bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. That's what we usually call Bouhe's parish.
Mr.Davis. He's still the secretary of that parish?
Mr.Voshinin. He's still the secretary of that parish—yeah.
These people are mostly those Baltic people there, with few Russians. There are perhaps about 5 Russians there and about 15 to 20 Estonians and Latvians. That is St. Nicholas though, whereas the St. Seraphim Church has a much wider, of course, background because there are Russians there, there are Yugoslavs—it's true that Bouhe's group has some Yugoslavs but they never come to his church—not very often at least—very rare; but they come to us,too—so I don't think they are members any place—those to which I'm talking about.
But in our church there are a lot of—well, not too many Russians there—not many people with Russian background in our city at all; but we have those called Carpathian Russians and West Ukrainians and we have some Serbians—people with Serbian backgrounds; we have some Greek people even; we have all the Arabic people here—you know, Lebanese and other Arabic countries which are Greek Orthodox; and we have American people with just plain Anglo-American background who became members.
Mr.Jenner. Who became interested in the Greek Orthodox Church?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Uh, huh.
Mr.Voshinin. Our pastor himself, was a former Baptist who, through study of church history, became Orthodox.
Mr.Jenner. Is this group—and I'm going to call the group both Bouhe's following as well as the group in which you move—are they, by and large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country or in Europe, or Asia?
Mr.Voshinin. No; in Bouhe's group there are only a few people with higher education; whereas, in our group, I would say there is a lot of people with higher education. We have doctors and engineersand——
Mr.Jenner. These people, I take it, are interested in the welfare of others in the group—in the general sense of the word?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, did there move into this community or come into this community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some people by the name—or a man by the name—whose last name was De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes—except that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in God.
Mr.Jenner. Yes, he is an atheist—but he did arrive on the scene or he was on thescene——
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, he was on the scene for a long time before we arrived here.
Mr.Jenner. He was here?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; he was here.
Mr.Jenner. When you came here then, in September 1955, you found De Mohrenschildt already here?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And was he active among these people—even though, as you say, he's an atheist?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, he was singing in the church choir.
Mr.Jenner. He was singing in the church choir eventhough——
Mr.Voshinin. At St. Nicholas.
Mr.Jenner. Even though he was an atheist?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that's rather unusual. How did that strike you?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to church.
Mr.Jenner. Even though he didn't believe in church?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, he said he doesn't believe in itbut——
Mr.Jenner. And was De Mohrenschildt married at that time?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. To whom?
Mr.Voshinin. To the Sharples girl.
Mr.Jenner. What are they—Quakers?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes, I guess so. Dee Dee, I think, was her name. I don't know what it stands for. She was a medical doctor—his wife.
Mr.Jenner. What do you know of De Mohrenschildt's background?
Mr.Voshinin. Only what he told me, of course.
Mr.Jenner. And what was said by others in this community of people?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; something what was said by others.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You give me his background as you learned it by reputation among the people you have described.
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Well, De Mohrenschildt comes from a Swedish family.
Mr.Jenner. You mean, by reputation, he was born in Sweden?
Mr.Voshinin. No. He was born, as I heard, in Baku in Azerbaijan. This is part of Southern Russia and Baku is in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. And I understand that his father was a nobleman and born in Russia somewhere from Swedish parents—and that he was a rich manand——
Mr.Jenner. His father was a rich man?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some other interests which led him to go to Baku, because Baku is the oil town in Russia.
So, probably a very substantially rich man.
As he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested—I don't know by whom—and I think his mother, too, as I understand, and he, as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and hungry. And then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to get out of prison, and they moved to Poland.
He told us that he got his high school education in Poland and then went to the military school in Poland and finished the military school and became a Polish cavalry officer—and he was proudly showing his picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. So—but, somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to school in France and Belgium, I guess, and, as he told us—I never saw his diploma—but he told us he has a Ph. D. degree in economics.
Mr.Jenner. From a school in Belgium?
Mr.Voshinin. Belgium or in France. I don't know. I—you know, I don't like to question people too much.
Mr.Jenner. No. All you're doing is giving me what he said and what is at large in the community we talked about.
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. So—but I don't know exactly, you know, if I would think if it would be of interest for anybody I would try to remember, of course, better but—somewhere, I don't know. He probably told me from which school it was, but I don't remember.
After that, he decided to emigrate to the United States, came here and saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again—and he went to school in Austin.
Mr.Jenner. Austin, Tex.?
Mr.Voshinin. Austin, Tex.—and in Colorado. Now, whether it was Colorado the University or Colorado the School of Mines, I don't know. But he finally became a petroleum engineer. As I understand, he earned his master's degree.
After that, he went to work in some southern American country or—I think he was sometime in Mexico and in some other country—I think it was Venezuela, which I'm not sure again, it might be something else. And—uh—then I think he returned here again during the war.
Mr.Jenner. That's the Second World War?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; during the Second World War,and——
Mr.Jenner. When you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the Dallas area or to the United States?
Mr.Voshinin. To the United States.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. What he did during the war, I don't know; but, after the war, he was working for some oil company. I think he had connections with the oil company in which his father-in-law, Sharples, had some interest—because he was receiving some money from that company even after he divorced his wife—until it finally stopped. But he was—I remember that he was saying, "Well, they stopped my money I received from the Sharples Co." He says, "Now, they got me with this thing. I am not a consultant any more."
He was some kind of consultant for that company—I don't know what of, thecompany's, that is. So, therefore, you know, I learned that he had received that all the time though. I don't imagine it was too much money, but helping him.
And, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time, you know. So, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and made also some consultations. And I know that before we came here he was very successful in the Caribbean area, and he got big money—real big money.
Mr.Jenner. This is by reputation?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil somewhere. I don't know whether it was Cuba or Haiti. I think it was Cuba. But that must be in 1953—something like that—because I know he was always running around talking about income tax on that money because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which year you receive that and so on.
So, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about that sort of thing.
Mr.Jenner. This is what he said anyway?
Mr.Voshinin. That's what he said anyway. I was never in business with him—so I don't know.
So, shortly after that, after we came here—you see, how we met him, my wife is a geologist with a Master Degree from Rutgers University; and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which also would give her the possibility to work in her profession—and not be so noisy as New York is. So, she was looking for a job—which was very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist—though we have a dozen of them here. But—so Bouhe gave us—he said, "There is a Russian geologist"—so Bouhe gave my wife the address of Mr. De Mohrenschildt's office. He has a very good—beautiful office in First National Bank.So——
Mr.Jenner. And that's how you met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. That's how we met De Mohrenschildt.
So, my wife worked there forabout——
Mr.Jenner. She worked in his office?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah, for half a day—part-time.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "Well, I don't have anything but you can—I want to bring my files in order, you know, and you help me a little so for sometimes I can give you something to start with—and I have a big friend of mine, Mr. Henry Rogatz, who is looking for an assistant. So, he called him on the telephone and he said, "I have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and all your work."
So, Henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day—she worked half a day for De Mohrenschildt and half a day for Rogatz. And my wife only worked for De Mohrenschildt, I think, 2 or 3 weeks and then she moved to Rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he retired—which was about a year and a half ago. So, all that time, my wife worked for Henry Rogatz.
And De Mohrenschildt, in that winter, divorced his wife and closed his office.
Mr.Jenner. What year was this?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, he divorced his wife—that was 1956, I would say, and he had trouble with his wife, I think, beginning in that winter—1955 or 1956—and finally he divorced her and after—sometimes after that he also closed his office. I don't know which year exactly he closed his office but that must be around 1956.
And then he—after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard for him because he has, you know—he had some kind of accident, as I understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and he has difficulties to concentrate—and, therefore, he has to have an office where he can—you know, some job which he can walk a little, consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. That's what he explained to me.
Mr.Jenner. Not follow a regimen—be there at 9, have lunch at 12, come back at2——
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. He says he has difficulties doing that—just physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work—to look for foreign assignments;he said that the Government has that Foreign Aid Program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind of job like that and he says he will go to Washington and there are some kind of agents called 5-percenters in Washington who you can—if you find the right man you will get a job.
So, he was traveling back and forth to Washington and so on, and finally he said he got a job in Yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other way out because he's broke. So, he went to Yugoslavia and stayed there for about a year. So, thatwas——
Mr.Jenner. Was he married then?
Mr.Voshinin. No; he was not married at that time.
Before that, he met that so-called Mrs. Le Gon, who posed as a French woman, And he met her at the swimming pool of the StoneleighHotel——
Mr.Jenner. He met her.
Mr.Voshinin. He met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel—because he was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel after his divorce and she was livingthere——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. He was living there after his divorce—and she was also living there?
Mr.Voshinin. She was also living there—yes.
She was, as I understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. She went to New York to sell—her permanent residence, as I understand, was Los Angeles or some suburb thereof. But she used to come here and sell her fashion designs to somebody called Clarke, I guess. She was—so, she was temporarily here but pretty often. So, they met there and fell in love, you know, and though she is Russian, of course, she would not say a word Russian; she would talk English with a French accent and saying she was a French woman.
Up to now, I think Mr. De Mohrenschildt does not know everything about his wife. He told me two times that there is something that he doesn't understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she came to the United States; and he says the moment he tries to question her about that—because he says, "It's my wife, I want to know,"—he says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all.
And we know, for example, that every time she meets some Russian from China, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. What it was, I don't know—and even De Mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know.
Mr.Jenner. Is she reputed to have been born in or to have lived in China?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; she is. She was born somewhere in China. Her father's name was Fomenko, she said—[spelling] F-o-m-e-n-k-o—who was an engineer on the East ChineseRailroad——
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Can you describe De Mohrenschildt's personality?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, do you want the further travelings as far as I know?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; please.
Mr.Voshinin. So, after—well, he went to Yugoslavia in the middle of that year. When he was in Yugoslavia, she went to visit him there.
Mr.Jenner. His present wife?
Mr.Voshinin. His present wife.
Mr.Jenner. And, at that time, his present wife was not his wife?
Mr.Voshinin. No.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. They were very much in love, you know—and her husband who was here two times and he was chasing De Mohrenschildt, and George De Mohrenschildt says, "He will kill me with a revolver"—and there was some kind of—we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very cheap movie film. But George De Mohrenschildt was so much afraid that he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his Stoneleigh apartment. And, then, her husband, also, as I understand, hired a detective who was running constantly De Mohrenschildt—and all kinds of things like that.
Mr.Jenner. A lot of cloak and dagger?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah—cloak and dagger stuff. So after that, they divorced—she divorced her husband—and, you know, he is now in an insane—had somekind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, I don't know what.
Mr.Jenner. In California?
Mr.Voshinin. In California; yes. Bogoiavlensky is his actual name, not Le Gon.
Mr.Jenner. Why don't we get your spelling on that name? We had somebody try it yesterday. Wouldyou——
Mr.Voshinin. If you give me a pencil, I may try it.
(After writing name, as set out above, hands paper to Mr. Jenner.)
I think that's it.
Mr.Jenner. That spelling makes sense. I think that's probably an accurate spelling.
Mr.Voshinin. Her daughter still keeps this name.
Mr.Jenner. What is her daughter's first name—the one you now have in mind?
Mr.Voshinin. Christina.
Mr.Jenner. Christina. And she also had a child—Alexandra?
Mr.Voshinin. I don't know anything about it.
Mr.Jenner. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter by the name of Alexandra?
Mr.Voshinin. De Mohrenschildt has two daughters, but I wouldn't know their names.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. Though I met both girls, but I somehow slipped up. My wife probably knows them.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. Christina Bogoiavlensky is a very good girl—and her husband, too. They are quite different from the parents.
Mr.Jenner. Go ahead.
Mr.Voshinin. So, after that assignment in Yugoslavia, he had an assignment in Ghana—which somehow puzzled us. First of all, it was a pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us a newspaper edited in Ghana in which, on the first page, was a short article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal stamps—Mr. De Mohrenschildt, who came to Ghana on business as a representative of a Swedish company."
Well, De Mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "Oh, those jerks—they don't know anything."
Mr.Jenner. Now, excuse me. The newspaper account was to the effect that De Mohrenschildt had come to Ghana as a representative of a Swedish company?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, I don't know whether the word "Swedish," was in there—but it said, "As a representative,"—and he said that it would be this Swedish company.
Mr.Jenner. He said that it was a Swedish company?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. The newspaper may just had the name of the company, you know.
Mr.Jenner. But it did mention De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, yes. "George De Mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and specialist in stamps"—and so on.
And I said, "George, since when do you understand anything in stamps? Since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?"
"Oh," he said, "I'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also provides Ghana and other African country with stamps, and it also has trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in Africa." So, he says, "I went there as their representative to see what parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil leases and assign—and sign some kind of contract with them—with the Government of Ghana—in their name, and came back to Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. And then he returned to Dallas?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. And, later, he also referred that that company has interests in Nigeria—and he says, "you know, I am Swedish—so they rely on me."
The whole thing puzzles us a little because I think there are many geologists in Sweden itself—but perhaps they don't have oil specialists there. I think there is no oil in Sweden.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and the other members of the community think that he was exaggerating or this was all fictional?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, I couldn't doubt when the newspaper says that.
Mr.Jenner. When the Ghana newspaper said that?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. So he must have been in Ghana. He wouldn't print that newspaper—I hope. But, of course, he is a man who exaggerates a lot. He is that kind of character. I never believe 100 percent of whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk much more than he actually is.
Mr.Jenner. At least, he tended to exaggerate?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; because he always posed everybody as a big shot, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Everybody with whom he was associated?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes, are—or to whom he met—that he was a, you know, big businessman, big oil man, and so on—big specialist. And he wrote an article about himself in the Oil and Gas Journal about Yugoslavia, his trip to Yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the State Department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually in the Foreign Aid, you know, and that he—and it was said, you know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about himself. You can get that Oil and Gas Journal. And it was said that Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a consultant to at least six different governments and so on. And there was—all kind of countries were there, I don't know which ones but, of course, Yugoslavia was mentioned there. And he tells about his trip to Yugoslavia and he told everybody then after—when he came back from Yugoslavia he was called to the State Department to give his opinion on the state of affairs in Yugoslavia—"And I gave quite a lecture there to those boys there in the State Department. They all sat down and listened to me." You know, that kind of talk.
So, then he was in Ghana and I heard he was a second time in Ghana and a second time in Yugoslavia—but I didn't hear it from him. I just heard that as a rumor.
And then when he was in Yugoslavia, he also made a trip to Sweden, after Yugoslavia, and from Sweden he went to Poland, to Warsaw. And, you know, in Warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends and relatives—so he said he stayed there for a week,and——
Mr.Jenner. When was this? When did this take place?
Mr.Voshinin. In Poland, I think was 1958, because he was in 1957, 1958, he was in Yugoslavia and after Yugoslavia I think he went to Sweden and from Sweden he went to Warsaw to see relatives. He has cousins there. He said it was very difficult for him because to get even the permission of the American Government to go there and visit Poland, but he finally got it, and the Polish visa he finally got that. And he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. And he said that Warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. And, besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. Of course, one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to Panama City.
Mr.Jenner. Fix the time of that, please?
Mr.Voshinin. That was 1960, 1961.
Mr.Jenner. Was that at about the time of the Cuban invasion or the preparations for the Cuban invasion?
Mr.Voshinin. I don't know. No. Cuban invasion was much later. You mean our Cuban invasion?
Mr.Jenner. I don't want to say it was our Cuban invasion—but there was an invasion of Cuba.
Mr.Voshinin. Well, I take that from the record.
Mr.Jenner. Was it about this time?
Mr.Voshinin. No, that was before that time, I would say, because it wasin 1960. We don't know when they left because we were not on speaking terms at that time.
Mr.Jenner. Had there come about a break in friendship with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; but that was about the time when they left on their trip.
Mr.Jenner. They were supposed to do what?
Mr.Voshinin. To go by foot from Torreon on to Panama City. This is a city near the American border there and, as we were explained later by them, they went to Torreon. They have a lot of friends on the border, you know. There is particularly a very rich man there who is American married with a Mexican girl—a very rich man living near Eagle Pass.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall his name?
Mr.Voshinin. Tito Harper, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Harper? Tito Harper?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; I think so. You can check it with my wife. I never met him but I met his wife. They're very nice people, very rich people, big businessman there on the border. They have, you know, business on both sides of the border, and they are big friends of George.
And, from there, he went to Torreon—I don't know why Torreon—and I understand that from there they started by foot to cross Old Mexico, Guatemala, San Salvador, and all the countries throughout by foot—having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the dog—I mean, the dog rode the mule—and that way they traveled, you know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year. In order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because it's dangerous. You know this already. They didn't go along the main highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the hills.
And they made a movie on their whole travel, which I saw. And, for example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the top—which was erupting. They made a movie of her standing from the lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) And he made the movie—it's real exciting—a colored movie and that red lava flowing—you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course, they enjoy doing things like that. I wouldn't climb it.
And, so, they finally came to Panama City. And then from Panama City they flew to Haiti where George had a very close friend—also a very rich man there of Russian background on Haiti.
Mr.Jenner. Did he mention his name?
Mr.Voshinin. He's dead now.
Mr.Jenner. He's dead? Did he mention his name?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes, he was—I'm bad on names. His first name was Michel—which is Michael, of course, and what the second name is, I don't know—Brightman. He was a very old man who was a local businessman on Haiti, and he died since.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. And as antireligious as they both were, they came to church and ordered a church service for Brightman. That was the only time she was in the church—because she's more antireligious than he is.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when you say "she," you mean Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt—yes. Because he's not religious, not believing in God, but he's not fighting it. Butshe——