Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And she found when they went out there, or whatever occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was making; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And so she went back to work.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't she?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long?
Mrs.Murret. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park area. That was when I was referring to.
Mr.Jenner. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. I have forgotten which section that was.
Mr.Jenner. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became pregnant.
Mr.Jenner. Was that when they had the house?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that theyrented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.
Mr.Jenner. Carrollton?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact that she was pregnant.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't want any children?
Mrs.Murret. He didn't want any children, that's right.
Mr.Jenner. This would have been when they were married approximately 3 years; would that be about right?
Mrs.Murret. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that.
Mr.Jenner. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close?
Mrs.Murret. We were very close.
Mr.Jenner. Very close?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your brothers and sisters. Your father died when?
Mrs.Murret. My father?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. Well, he died about 33 years ago.
Mr.Jenner. Thirty-three years ago?
Mrs.Murret. About that; yes.
Mr.Jenner. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when did your mother die?
Mrs.Murret. My mother died about 1911.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, she preceded your father?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. So when your father died, you children were then orphans; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 years of age?
Mrs.Murret. I was married when my father died. I had three children when my father died. One child was a baby.
Mr.Jenner. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?
Mrs.Murret. I have two brothers.
Mr.Jenner. Two brothers?
Mrs.Murret. And we were four sisters.
Mr.Jenner. All right, now give me the brothers' names.
Mrs.Murret. Their names are Charles and John.
Mr.Jenner. Charles Claverie and John Claverie?
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Are they alive?
Mrs.Murret. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5 months apart.
Mr.Jenner. Were they teenagers?
Mrs.Murret. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.
Mr.Jenner. Was that Charles or John?
Mrs.Murret. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB.
Mr.Jenner. And he died at age 18?
Mrs.Murret. Around that; yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you had four sisters, you say?
Mrs.Murret. Including myself.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; including yourself.
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. All right. One sister was Marguerite.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And yourself, Lillian.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Who else?
Mrs.Murret. Aminthe.
Mr.Jenner. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Is that pronounced Aminthe?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; Aminthe.
Mr.Jenner. That sounds French, is it?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; it's French.
Mr.Jenner. All right, what's the other sister's name?
Mrs.Murret. Pearl. She died.
Mr.Jenner. Pearl is dead?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where is Aminthe living at the present time?
Mrs.Murret. Aminthe is living in Knoxville.
Mr.Jenner. Knoxville, Tenn.?
Mrs.Murret. Tennessee, yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it Charles was the oldest?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and I was next.
Mr.Jenner. You were next?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; John was next.
Mr.Jenner. John was next?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe.
Mr.Jenner. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. John was third.
Mrs.Murret. John was third, that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Marguerite was fourth?
Mrs.Murret. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth.
Mr.Jenner. How about Pearl?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, let's see—that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth.
Mr.Jenner. And Pearl was fifth?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. How old was Pearl when she died?
Mrs.Murret. She died recently. She was about 54.
Mr.Jenner. She was in her fifties?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did she die of natural causes?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. What was the occupation of your father?
Mrs.Murret. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. He worked for them approximately around 40 years.
Mr.Jenner. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken out the first mule car, I think—when they had mule cars, before they had the handbrakes on the cars.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal education, beyond high school?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John who died when he was 18?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Well, did John finish high school?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did Charles?
Mrs.Murret. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross," and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to someone, and I never did get it back.
Mr.Jenner. How unfortunate.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, you know, back and forth. He was a gunner.
Mr.Jenner. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser?
Mrs.Murret. On the transport.
Mr.Jenner. He was a gunner on a transport?
Mrs.Murret. Transport; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is alive; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right. Aminthe is alive too.
Mr.Jenner. Did you complete high school?
Mrs.Murret. I did not. I didn't even go to high school.
Mr.Jenner. You did not?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you complete elementary school?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Jenner. What about Pearl?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.
Mr.Jenner. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, or did she?
Mrs.Murret. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We were just trying to keep the family together more or less.
You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.
Mr.Jenner. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I don't want you to think I am just being curious.
Mrs.Murret. No; I understand.
Mr.Jenner. I am trying to find out the family background so that we can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey Oswald. You understand?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.
Mr.Jenner. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her personality.
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.
Mr.Jenner. I think she's nice looking.
Mrs.Murret. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.
Mr.Jenner. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were wrong.
Mr.Jenner. How do you and Marguerite get along now?
Mrs.Murret. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls, and how you got along then.
Mrs.Murret. Well, when we were girls, we got along.
Mr.Jenner. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with her, anything like that?
Mrs.Murret. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like that. We did get along pretty well.
Mr.Jenner. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, because there were things where we just didn't think alike.
Mr.Jenner. You did not?
Mrs.Murret. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was wrong.
Mr.Jenner. She thought you were wrong?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about anything. She would just, you know, fly off.
Mr.Jenner. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, no.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything that you can recall of that nature?
Mrs.Murret. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.
Mr.Jenner. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, they did for a while.
Mr.Jenner. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville.
Mr.Jenner. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans area?
Mrs.Murret. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when I first got married, she stayed with me then.
Mr.Jenner. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed together.
Mr.Jenner. You and your husband and your father and your sister Marguerite stayed together?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman.
Mr.Jenner. What is the business or occupation of your husband?
Mrs.Murret. What is his occupation?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other words.
Mr.Jenner. Different what?
Mrs.Murret. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have work, he will work for someone else.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me what else you know about John Pic.
Mrs.Murret. What else?
Mr.Jenner. Yes, about Edward John Pic.
Mrs.Murret. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, what was the reason or anything.
Mr.Jenner. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite?
Mrs.Murret. No; she left John.
Mr.Jenner. Did she leave him?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Before they were divorced?
Mrs.Murret. Before they were divorced; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick.
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Would you elaborate on that a little?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; if I can.
Mr.Jenner. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she would act without thinking things over?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she made up her mind. That's what Imean. In other words, when she would find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick decisions.
Mr.Jenner. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl as well as a mature lady?
Mrs.Murret. I don't remember anything like that before she was married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.
Mr.Jenner. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick acting in her personality?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. And you think she failed to think things over, that she didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she needed to reach a decision, is that it?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over before I did them, but she wouldn't.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that?
Mrs.Murret. You can call it that if you like.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.
Mrs.Murret. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City Park section, in Carrollton.
Mr.Jenner. Would you spell that for me, please?
Mrs.Murret. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n.
Mr.Jenner. Carrollton?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs from yours.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; my southern drawl.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's as long as your arm.
I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, with a sharp enunciation.
Mrs.Murret. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce.
Mr.Jenner. Now, was she working at that time?
Mrs.Murret. No; she was not working then.
Mr.Jenner. How was she being supported?
Mrs.Murret. Eddie was supporting her.
Mr.Jenner. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until he was 18 years old.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 years old, she married Mr. Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. I will get to that in a minute.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward Pic embittered her?
Mrs.Murret. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?
Mrs.Murret. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come over and stay a while, and he did.
Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was cruel, because I don't believe in that.
Mr.Jenner. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she refused to permit her former husband to see the child?
Mrs.Murret. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the child or not. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?
Mrs.Murret. That's right, she wouldn't.
Mr.Jenner. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't know that?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not.
Mr.Jenner. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie see the child; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't think, not after he was a child.
Mr.Jenner. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; I imagine she was.
Mr.Jenner. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was unusual insofar as personality is concerned?
Mrs.Murret. No; not that I can think of.
Mr.Jenner. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already.
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she got alimony for herself.
Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a lot wouldn't know how to do that.
Mr.Jenner. Of course I gather from what you have said—as a matter of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you were necessarily poor people.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, or $14 a month house rent—I forget which—and every day he would give us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left out of the $1, believe it or not.
My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to thestore and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.
Mr.Jenner. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day?
Mrs.Murret. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, were out.
I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had a lot of fun.
We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children have to do today.
I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's the thing to do.
Mr.Jenner. What's the Blue Room?
Mrs.Murret. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel.
Mr.Jenner. Is it a place of entertainment?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.
They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like that either.
Mr.Jenner. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to lie about anything.
Mr.Jenner. You never have?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?
Mrs.Murret. I would say, when you put it that way—I would say if she expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do that, well, then that was the wrong thing.
Mr.Jenner. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, or show any emotional trait at all?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be right all the time.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like that.
Mrs.Murret. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, then you were just wrong.
Mr.Jenner. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it?
Mrs.Murret. She was very independent, in other words. She was very independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would have these little differences.
Mr.Jenner. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would go ahead and give her help again.
Mr.Jenner. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these incidents would arise?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were the older sister and really head of the family?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't act that way?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.
Mr.Jenner. She questioned that?
Mrs.Murret. With me, yes; I mean, about the children.
Mr.Jenner. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your children?
Mrs.Murret. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.
Mr.Jenner. Go ahead and tell me about it.
Mrs.Murret. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was just married October 5.
Mr.Jenner. Of what year?
Mrs.Murret. This year, 1963—this past year.
Mr.Jenner. Your son John?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; well, she was over at thehouse——
Mr.Jenner. Who are you talking about now?
Mrs.Murret. Marguerite
Mr.Jenner. All right, Marguerite was over at the house, and what happened?
Mrs.Murret. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, so Marguerite was over at the house at that time.
Mr.Jenner. You are talking about your house?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and it wasa rainy day, and John and this girl friend—we were all in the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, "Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall that was.
Mr.Jenner. Was that just this last fall, in October?
Mrs.Murret. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't seen—this was quite a while previous to that—maybe 2 years.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say?
Mrs.Murret. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that time, or after.
Mr.Jenner. Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected.
Mrs.Murret. Let's see. I can't remember when that was now.
Mr.Jenner. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to Russia right after that.
Mrs.Murret. I just can't remember that.
Mr.Jenner. Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on my route.
Mr.Jenner. Lee Oswald was an insurance collector?
Mrs.Murret. For Metropolitan; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He collected insurance premiums?
Mrs.Murret. For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co.
Mr.Jenner. Was that weekly or monthly, or what?
Mrs.Murret. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good insurance man, I think.
Mr.Jenner. He was an energetic man?
Mrs.Murret. He was.
Mr.Jenner. When you first knew him, he was married; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he collected in my area.
Mr.Jenner. He was already divorced from his wife?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had he had any children of that marriage?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think he did.
Mr.Jenner. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and Marguerite became acquainted?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic—I'm not too sure of that—and Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally.
Mr.Jenner. He had to leave the church?
Mrs.Murret. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He could go to mass.
Mr.Jenner. He happened to be Catholic?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Are you Catholic?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go ahead.
Mrs.Murret. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street.
Mr.Jenner. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of religion. You are Catholic.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Have you always been Catholic?
Mrs.Murret. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the Lutheran religion.
Mr.Jenner. You were baptized in the Lutheran religion?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that we went to Sunday school.
Mr.Jenner. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday school, to the Lutheran church?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family.
Mr.Jenner. Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then.
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so he continued that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he did.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted?
Mrs.Murret. No. John Pic—rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite a school, and it was a very nice place.
Mr.Jenner. What's the name of the school?
Mrs.Murret. William T. Frantz, they call it.
Mr.Jenner. How do you spell Frantz?
Mrs.Murret. F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is.
Mr.Jenner. There were two children born of that marriage; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born after his father died.
Mr.Jenner. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't want to change his name.
Mr.Jenner. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony terminated, did it?
Mrs.Murret. I think so, but John still received his.
Mr.Jenner. The child support continued?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in there—he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young woman was in thestore——
Mr.Jenner. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are you referring to John Pic?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was working in the store—you see, Marguerite didn't have any children then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young woman said to John—he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that he was married or anything, and then this marriagewas annulled—an aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. My sister did tell me the story about that.
Mr.Jenner. That marriage was a happy marriage, was it?
Mrs.Murret. The Oswald marriage?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would drop by, but we didn't visit too often.
Mr.Jenner. They had a car and they had a home?
Mrs.Murret. What's that?
Mr.Jenner. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their own home on Alvar Street?
Mrs.Murret. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come out, he just toppled over.
Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no insurance on the house, or whatever it was.
Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember where, and then she sold that.
Mr.Jenner. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did your sister return to work?
Mrs.Murret. Not right away.
Mr.Jenner. Not right away?
Mrs.Murret. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that.
Mr.Jenner. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return to work after a period of about 3 years?
Mrs.Murret. About 3 years; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took care of Lee when he was that age.
Mr.Jenner. All right, I would like for you to tell me about that.
Mrs.Murret. When Lee was a very small child?
Mr.Jenner. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that 3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was—I don't know how that came along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and her husband—I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when Iwould he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so—in other words, I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would still get out.
Mr.Jenner. What do you mean by a basement house?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath.
Mr.Jenner. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. She had gone back to work; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What sort of work did she do?
Mrs.Murret. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of the stores in town.
Mr.Jenner. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I assume her earnings were small?
Mrs.Murret. What's that?
Mr.Jenner. I assume her earnings were small?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; they don't pay too much.
Mr.Jenner. What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time?
Mrs.Murret. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home.
Mr.Jenner. Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans?
Mrs.Murret. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who have one parent.
Mr.Jenner. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be back here at 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET RESUMED
The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr.Jenner. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did you have him?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time.
Mr.Jenner. That was 1948; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient myself.
Mr.Jenner. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when that was?
Mrs.Murret. When she married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr.Jenner. No; that you had the care of Lee in your home.
Mrs.Murret. That I had what?
Mr.Jenner. When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, when he was about 3 years old.
Mr.Jenner. That would have been about 1942; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I don't recall exactly how that was now.
Mr.Jenner. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have been 9 years old; isn't that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time.
Mr.Jenner. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home on that occasion?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years.
Mr.Jenner. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere in there?
Mrs.Murret. Yes sir.
Mr.Jenner. He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. What's that?
Mr.Jenner. He was 3 years old?
Mrs.Murret. About 3; yes.
Mr.Jenner. When he came with you?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. How old was he when he left?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left me.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem orphanage?
Mrs.Murret. He did. He was out there for a while.
Mr.Jenner. Did he come from your home to the orphanage?
Mrs.Murret. I really don't know that.
Mr.Jenner. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers.
Mrs.Murret. Well, the incident could have been—I don't know if it was that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any more, or something like that; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You don't have any clear recollection on that score?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about 5 years old?
Mrs.Murret. About; yes.
Mr.Jenner. When he left your home?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem orphanage home with his two brothers, do you?