Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that?
Mr.Clark. Yes; he told me.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say?
Mr.Clark. I asked him what it was like working there and he said the closest comparison he could give would be like the Marine Corps. He said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to corporal, sergeant and so forth. He said the higher you went in their jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if he stayed there 5 years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. He said you could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city—I said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that. He said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could live and they assigned you an apartment and itmight take 5 years to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their vacations while he could not. I said, "Well, you were saying everyone got a month's vacation." He said, "That's true, but you had to pay your transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place of employment down to the Black Sea.
Mr.Liebeler. He told you that?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Clark. He said he was limited because he did not have the money.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?
Mr.Clark. As I recall, between 80 and 90 rubles and he was justifying that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. That's the main things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing, shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he received any income from any source other than his job?
Mr.Clark. He said that's all he had and he had written to his mother to get money to come back to the States.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention receiving money from the Red Cross?
Mr.Clark. No; he did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention to you that he had gone from Minsk to Moscow to talk to the officials at the American Embassy about returning to the United States?
Mr.Clark. No; he did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever tell you that Marina went from Minsk to Kharkof for a 2- or 3-week vacation after they were married?
Mr.Clark. No; he did not. He said that after they were married that she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and walk around and do some hunting of some kind; I don't know. I didn't pay much attention to him. He said they went out for amusements for walks. I asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go to dances once in awhile. He indicated to me that Marina had to work up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the child but by putting in his application to return to the United States somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. She never returned to work after the birth of the child.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high cost of transportation?
Mr.Clark. Yes; the reason I remember that is I had read an article recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures in Life or Time magazine on the Black Sea, this resort area, and asked him if he had been down there as I heard it was similar to the Riviera in France. He said no, he wanted to go there. I said, "Why didn't you go there during your vacation if you had a month?" He said he couldn't afford it. It would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the transportation. I said, "Isn't housing and food provided?" He said, "Oh, yes; if I could have gotten there I could have a free house but only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down there." He was quite unhappy about it.
Mr.Liebeler. He mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath while most of the other apartments had to share the bath?
Mr.Clark. Yes; I was asking him what the apartments were like. He said most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments, would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share that one bath and one kitchen. And the other side of the wing would be a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those apartments was his had a wash basin and privatestove in there, small apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to use the communal kitchen.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you said that Marina did not go back to work after the baby was born?
Mr.Clark. That's what he indicated to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that that was an extraordinary situation?
Mr.Clark. Yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were allowed so much leave; I think he said 6 weeks before the birth of a child and 4 weeks or something after the birth of the child in which they were not required to work but other than that they worked the whole time.
Mr.Liebeler. What happened to the child when they went back to work?
Mr.Clark. He said they take it to special places that elderly women—they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he express any opinion as to this procedure? Did he think this was a good thing or bad thing?
Mr.Clark. Well, he didn't seem quite—he just took it as a matter of course. He thought that was all right. He didn't have much comment to make on that.
Mr.Liebeler. I am looking at a report of an interview which you gave on about November 29, 1963, to two FBI agents, Mr. Haley and Mr. Madland. Do you remember that?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. This report indicates that you told them at that time that 3 months after Oswald's child was born that his wife did go back to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a government nursery.
Mr.Clark. No; I think maybe Earl must have misunderstood because when the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than 5 months old. I am not sure but the baby was very young and I think Earl might have misunderstood when I said after the mothers returned to work they were placed in a nursery.
Mr.Liebeler. Seems like he might have confused the general proposition with the particular case of the Oswalds.
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did Oswald tell you the circumstances under which he met and subsequently married his wife, Marina?
Mr.Clark. Well, I have heard from him and then, of course, I think she told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he met Marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a short time, they got married.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing permission to marry her?
Mr.Clark. He didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a flirt. In other words, she said that she made a practice of going late to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be hot and tired. So, she went late this night, later in the evening, and arrived very fresh and she met Oswald and she thought it was unusual to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an American, so she started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "What did your friends think about you going with an American and marrying an American and coming to the United States?" Marina says "Well, they told me it couldn't be any worse."
Mr.Liebeler. By that she meant the United States couldn't be any worse than the Soviet Union?
Mr.Clark. Couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite happy to get out of there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife have the feeling that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?
Mr.Clark. My wife had the impression she thought it was something new and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was—seemed to be as much interested in leaving Russia as staying there.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did Oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the Soviet Union and return to the United States?
Mr.Clark. Yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind that he would never get any place in the Soviet Union and that he was disappointed because it was not like Karl Marx or was not true Communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and Marina was to leave so he made application to leave.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember him specifically using the words "make his mark" or is that just an expression of yours?
Mr.Clark. That is my expression but my general impression was he wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what particular circumstances he was in.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the fact that he was a defector and had gone to Russia and you gave the impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this fact and you said, if I recall it, he would say "Well, you know who I am" when you met him. Would you think this would be an example of what you just spoke of?
Mr.Clark. Yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted to stand out. He wanted everybody to know he was the defector.
Mr.Liebeler. And he called attention to that fact to make himself stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to peoples' attention?
Mr.Clark. Yes; I thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to think it made him somebody.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of any other examples of behavior on Oswald's part?
Mr.Clark. Well, he stated while he was in Russia he didn't—he was completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former Marine Corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment than the average sheet metal worker. He was quite proud of the few accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he read very much and how much he had read.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he tell you about that?
Mr.Clark. Oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything he could about communism, about Karl Marx and that he felt that it was much better than participating in sports. I tried to see if he was interested in sports and he wasn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you he was a member of any Communist or Marxist organizations?
Mr.Clark. No; he didn't. We didn't get into any phase of organizations. He was more or less discussing his particular life in Russia and what it was like and I was interested in how he got back and why he decided to come back.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining permission to return to the United States?
Mr.Clark. Well, I was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and Marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and I asked him "How did you work that?" He said "Well, we just went down and I made application and she was my wife and the child and told them I wanted to go back to the United States. When I secured the passage" he said, "they okayed it." Said "We left." He didn't seem to think it was unusual. He said that he just happened to ask at the right place is what he indicated to me; said "Maybe these other people hadn't hit at the right time or hadn't approached the right person."
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate the U.S. Government had given him or Marina any difficulty about them returning?
Mr.Clark. None whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not renounced his citizenship. I said "I thought you said you turned in your passport and wanted to become a Soviet citizen?" He said "I did turn in my passport but they didn't make me a Soviet citizen so I did not renounce my citizenship. So when I made application to come back", he said "They couldn't keep me out."
Mr.Liebeler. He ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing of his American citizenship to the refusal of the Russians to make him a citizen?
Mr.Clark. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. He did not mention the U.S. Embassy or Moscow had refused to permit him to return?
Mr.Clark. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate any hostility toward the State Department or Embassy or Moscow?
Mr.Clark. He did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. He just thought everyone was out of step but him. He was rather an arrogant-talking person.
Mr.Liebeler. He did not mention specifically any government official, President Kennedy, Governor Connally?
Mr.Clark. No one.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about his service in the Marine Corps?
Mr.Clark. Nothing except he was very unhappy while in the Marine Corps. He didn't like any part of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did that come up in connection with his comparison of life in the Soviet Union with life in the Marine Corps?
Mr.Clark. I would ask him "How would you classify life in the Soviet Union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether they work or not?" He said just that they have to work. There may be five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put you on; and I said "What prevents everyone from migrating from one place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" He said "It's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of places to live and assignment of apartments."
Mr.Liebeler. He did not mention to you he received an undesirable discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr.Clark. No; he did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know about it at that time?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who told you that?
Mr.Clark. I think it was in the paper. I felt pretty sure anyone that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable discharge.
Mr.Liebeler. Did any of the other members or any of the members of the so-called Russian Community in the Dallas-Fort Worth area ever raise with you the question of whether they should associate with Oswald; whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have anything to do with him?
Mr.Clark. I think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked me and I said "In my opinion he is a defector and you know what he is"; I said "You should not hold that against this girl Marina. She's having a hard time. He's beating her up, everything is strange to her, she can't speak the language, I don't think you should ostracize her because of Oswald." Most of them had absolutely no use for Oswald and they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and kicked around by this Oswald without at least trying to look after her. I told them I didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. I said "As far as Oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that when he returned to the United States the FBI has got him tagged and is watching his movements or I would be very much surprised."
Mr.Liebeler. If theydidn't——
Mr.Clark. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly wherehe is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would keep a record."
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss Oswald with anybody in the FBI?
Mr.Clark. Not before this happened.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever had any official connection with the FBI?
Mr.Clark. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became acquainted with Earl Haley.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of this sort with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Clark. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well, I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know him quite well.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after the assassination?
Mr.Clark. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Has he said anything in these letters about the assassination?
Mr.Clark. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us generally what he said?
Mr.Clark. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs. Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way?
Mr.Clark. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened—that Oswald had done it.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you still have copies of those letters?
Mr.Clark. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them. I know I got the last one.
Mr.Liebeler. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with you, of course?
Mr.Clark. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. If you would look through your records when you go back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters and may want to make them part of this record.
Mr.Clark. Sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Clark. No.
Mr.Liebeler. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not think Oswald was the man who did it?
Mr.Clark. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an explorer or pirate or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was?
Mr.Clark. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up.
Mr.Liebeler. Who told you that?
Mr.Clark. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told me that.
Mr.Liebeler. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Clark. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald a real lashing about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea when that was?
Mr.Clark. It's bound to have been in—sometime after the first of January, sometime in the spring of 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. How do you fix that date in your mind?
Mr.Clark. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas, the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party, the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or 27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go.
Mr.Liebeler. Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Mr.Clark. So, getting back to that party—so we didn't go to the party at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of Oswald and threatened him—picked him up by his shirt and shook him like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid another hand on her.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party?
Mr.Clark. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I think it was.
Mr.Liebeler. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti?
Mr.Clark. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti.
Mr.Liebeler. I think it was in May sometime.
Mr.Clark. I know one time during that period I think George went to Pennsylvania or New York.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; that's right, I believe.
Mr.Clark. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3 weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month or maybe more.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made on the life of General Walker?
Mr.Clark. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that?
Mr.Clark. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him shortly before he left for Haiti.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Clark. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked politics.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in connection with the Walker attempt at that time?
Mr.Clark. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only comment we had.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty to the United States?
Mr.Clark. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was just a "patsy" in the thing?
Mr.Clark. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes without even thinking; most of the time he does that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to whether he was mentally unstable or not?
Mr.Clark. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in the world was out of step but himself.
Mr.Liebeler. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him?
Mr.Clark. Well, I just thought—I didn't think—well, I just felt that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was—didn't seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was a completely shiftless individual.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr.Clark. Never heard of him until all this happened.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby?
Mr.Clark. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did not.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't know of any connection between the two?
Mr.Clark. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Clark. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have committed?
Mr.Clark. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous.
Mr.Liebeler. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to call attention to himself?
Mr.Clark. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or other.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you now told us everything that you recall about Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what you said, go right ahead.
Mr.Clark. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned with what life was like in Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms?
Mr.Clark. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have registered on me.
Mr.Liebeler. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in firearms to you at that time?
Mr.Clark. Not at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. He never indicated that to you at any time?
Mr.Clark. No; not at any time; no, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might have been a Russian agent?
Mr.Clark. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the ones thathad lived in the States the longest period of time and couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's" just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily. The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to be concerned about it because they felt the American government was keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as much as the ones that got out recently.
Mr.Liebeler. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in getting out of Russia, is that correct?
Mr.Clark. Yes; based on the reason the ones—because they had considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia?
Mr.Clark. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know there's several others of the younger group that came over.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr.Clark. Thomas Ray—her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr.Clark. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna.
Mr.Liebeler. That's Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mr.Clark. That's the one I know.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in Blossom, Tex.
Mr.Clark. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't recall their name.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?
Mr.Clark. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent.
Mr.Liebeler. You did consider the question prior to the assassination?
Mr.Clark. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by the FBI?
Mr.Clark. I did not discuss it with him.
Mr.Liebeler. You never mentioned it?
Mr.Clark. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off political issues or anything about the United States.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very much.
The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.
I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, and anything you might know about the assassination or anything shedding light on Oswald's motive.
I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony.
Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go ahead at this time?
Mr.Bouhe. I am.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you.
Mr.Bouhe. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance before the Commission?
Mr.Liebeler. No. This is in effect your appearance before the Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington.
Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give?
Mr.Bouhe. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr.Bouhe. George A. Bouhe.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr.Bouhe. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you presently employed?
Mr.Bouhe. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last year.
Mr.Liebeler. For whom were you employed up to that time?
Mr.Bouhe. For 9½ years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr.Bouhe. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a baptismal certificate showing February 11.
Mr.Liebeler. Under the old Russian calendar?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United States.
Mr.Bouhe. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy.
It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia.
The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sentAmerican executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking English, was an office boy.
When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did that lead to your coming to the United States?
Mr.Bouhe. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University, Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at night, and it was cold, and got out.
Mr.Liebeler. You went into Finland and came to the United States?
Mr.Bouhe. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you eventually become an American citizen?
Mr.Bouhe. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you continue your education when you came to the United States?
Mr.Bouhe. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did there, which is not much.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe.
Mr.Bouhe. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess.
Mr.Liebeler. You got your first acquaintance with English through the English governess, is that correct?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to the gymnasium, is that correct?
Mr.Bouhe. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us Latin and Greek.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first come to Dallas?
(Mr. Jenner entered the room.)
Mr.Liebeler(continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner.
Mr.Bouhe. On July 4, 1939.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you lived in Dallas since that time?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us about that?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married people, married to Americans, and so on.
So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.
In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to Dallasfrom Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian Empire.
By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language.
It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in Germany—they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a 10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him.
So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their new homeland.
Mr.Liebeler. You gathered these people together and you formed a church congregation, is that correct?
Mr.Bouhe. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian language was welcome.
And as you said, I organized—well, I did the organization work, really.
The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky.
Mr.Liebeler. These people came together in an effort to help the people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the English language become useful members of the community and become self-sufficient?
Mr.Bouhe. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn English, because I have the great reliance on that.
Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn English? All I want to do is get a job."
Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, taking people by the hand and sticking them there.
Mr.Liebeler. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if my information is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. That lady's maiden name was Sharples?
Mr.Bouhe. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A. Mamantov?
Mr.Bouhe. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere around that time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.
Mr.Bouhe. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, 1962.
Mr.Liebeler. Where?
Mr.Bouhe. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and Mrs. Peter P. Gregory.
Mr.Liebeler. Who else was there at that time?
Mr.Bouhe. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission.
Mr.Liebeler. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct?
Mr.Bouhe. It was that.
Mr.Liebeler. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald?
Mr.Bouhe. Of course.
Mr.Liebeler. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language?
Mr.Bouhe. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a free class of the Russian language.
Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they exchanged a few talks.
Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Bouhe. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear it from anybody else?
Mr.Bouhe. No.
Mr.Liebeler. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the assassination?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth.
Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 bill—and that information is from the press—and started dictating the book.
Mr.Liebeler. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald with his book?
Mr.Bouhe. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee Oswald and his wife, Marina?
Mr.Bouhe. I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said at that time?
Mr.Bouhe. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg.
This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in existence, or the herring fish market still smells.
Mr.Liebeler. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that time?
Mr.Bouhe. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I was interested in.
Mr.Liebeler. And you discussed those maps?
Mr.Bouhe. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any exchange of pleasantries on that subject.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad and moved to Minsk?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. Petersburg to Minsk?
Mr.Bouhe. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union?
Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss—let's not just limit your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we will go back and pick up the other times when you met him.
Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union?
Mr.Bouhe. I did not at that meeting.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss with him?
Mr.Bouhe. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against society.
Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He doesn't like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that?
Mr.Bouhe. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he didn't like it.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you learn about the football?
Mr.Bouhe. In the press after the assassination.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald.
Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Bouhe. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory.
But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet Union.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you?
Mr.Bouhe. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90 rubles.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had while he was in Russia?
Mr.Bouhe. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?"
Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent.
I said, "What did you get as rent?"
"Well, it was an old factory building."
I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a flimsy partition.
Mr.Liebeler. This is the place where he lived?
Mr.Bouhe. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, or did he appear to have better quarters?
Mr.Bouhe. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.
Mr.Liebeler. Pretty sad pair of boots?
Mr.Bouhe. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops—which were famousfor Russian boots for generations, which were originally all leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so on—were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much they cost?
Mr.Bouhe. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you continue those discussions and have him go through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?
Mr.Bouhe. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of his rare occasions.
Mr.Liebeler. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter Gregory?
Mr.Bouhe. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles—and I can't imagine what it is in Minsk when it rains—what about the food?"
And that figure I remember distinctly.
In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something because there was not enough money left to buy.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke was all the money he received while he was in Russia?
Mr.Bouhe. I did not ask that question; no.
Mr.Liebeler. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that correct?
Mr.Bouhe. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, "90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"
No answer.
But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I couldn't cross-examine.
Mr.Liebeler. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, is that correct?
Mr.Bouhe. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For instance, he had a portable radio.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see that?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone and records.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask him how much the radio cost?
Mr.Bouhe. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it and he said it is a most awful construction.
But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. And what she was earning, I do not know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting club in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Bouhe. I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do—"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".
Mr.Liebeler. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?
Mr.Bouhe. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting?
Mr.Bouhe. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun?
Mr.Bouhe. There?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; in the Soviet Union.
Mr.Bouhe. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in connection with his hunting trips?
Mr.Bouhe. No; never asked. Was never told.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can remember?
Mr.Bouhe. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting?
Mr.Bouhe. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no reason to suspect his lying.
Mr.Liebeler. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when he was in Russia?
Mr.Bouhe. That is what he said.
Mr.Liebeler. That didn't surprise you at that time?
Mr.Bouhe. No; that is one of the occupations.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of the Soviet Government?
Mr.Bouhe. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or heard him volunteer any such thing.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia?
Mr.Bouhe. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to be brought up in the United States."
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why he wanted to come back to the United States?
Mr.Bouhe. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.