Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did Garrett know of Oswald in the sixth grade?
Was that Lily B. Clayton?
Mr.Vinson. No. Oswald left Lily B. Clayton, according to Don Jackson who wrote this Life article. He did some real extensive research on it. I see you have a copy there.
Mr.Liebeler. You are referring to the article on Oswald which appears in the February 21, 1964, issue of Life Magazine, is that correct?
Mr.Vinson. Yes. On page 69, it quotes Garrett. It was the fifth and sixth grades. I was trying to find which school it was. I believe it was Ridglea West Elementary School.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you this or you just said this on the basis of the article?
Mr.Vinson. Yes, he told me this, too. Well, actually, I can't remember offhand, but I was just trying to refer to this to see if this is accurate, and I feel sure, I believe it was Ridglea West.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it be the George Clark Elementary School?
Mr.Vinson. No. That was another year.
Mr.Liebeler. I believe Oswald did originally go to that school?
Mr.Vinson. Yes. Ridglea West Elementary was Mrs. Clyde Livingston. And then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend.
Mr.Liebeler. What else did you talk to Garrett about?
Mr.Vinson. Well, as far as the school is concerned, I don't remember offhand. I think it was Ridglea West. Garrett told me that he had known Oswaldin the fifth and sixth grades, or I believe that is what he says in here. I believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then he said that he saw him again in high school when Oswald came to high school at Arlington Heights High School. And he said he approached him, that Oswald approached Garrett something to the effect that, asked him if he remembered him from grade school, and I believe Garrett said that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and remembered who he was. And he told me that Oswald mentioned something about communism to him somehow. He was trying to sell Garrett on the idea of communism.
Mr.Liebeler. That was while Oswald was in the Arlington High School?
Mr.Vinson. That was what Garrett said, and Garrett said he went to the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not see Oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or expelled or what the situation was.
Mr.Liebeler. He never associated with Oswald to any particular degree at this point?
Mr.Vinson. Not at this point. He said he "shied away from him after he gave me this communism pitch."
Mr.Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you when this was? What grade in high school he was in?
Mr.Vinson. If he did, I don't recall. I think it was the sophomore year in high school, the 10th grade. It says in this article, but if this has got to come from my recollection, I would think it was the 10th grade.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you anything else?
Mr.Vinson. That is all. I just let him go because he couldn't help me much. Somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he remembered about him, and I was just trying to pin down what school Oswald went to in the second grade, at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. You said that you yourself wrote an article in the Fort Worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with Oswald in the second grade?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have a copy of that with you?
Mr.Vinson. No; I don't. I thought about bringing one, but I don't know if that would be needed or not, since what I am telling you is in effect what I said in there. I don't think there is anything I haven't told you that is in there, with the exception, I think I mentioned something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good grades.
Now this was just something I am not sure of, but that is just the way it seemed. And I mentioned something else that to the best of my memory he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. I don't recall that he had any difficulty, because I remember several who did, and he was not among those that I recall as having trouble along those lines.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than Garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to anybody who knew Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. No; I hadn't. Well, excuse me, yes, I have, too, on the telephone. I talked to Mrs. Livingston who is mentioned in this story. Some people from Life contacted me that saw the story I had in the Star Telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in Fort Worth for their story, and I made a few phone calls for them, and I did talk to Mrs. Livingston. But what I talked to her about was not about Oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture, and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. It was just who had a picture that Life could borrow.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you find one?
Mr.Vinson. Yes. Don Jackson, the author of the story came down, and at that time she said she didn't know of any. However, Jackson came down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at the bottom of the page. One which shows him on the playground, and the other which shows Mrs. Livingston with a dog that Oswald had given her.
Mr.Liebeler. You are referring to pages 68-B and 69, of the Life Magazine which we mentioned above?
Mr.Vinson. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize the scene in this picture on page 68-B?
Mr.Vinson. No; because that was not when I was in the second grade, or in the same school with him. I believe that was in the fourth grade. Maybe the third.
Mr.Liebeler. The scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to be near the Lily B. Clayton School?
Mr.Vinson. No; it doesn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to Jackson personally in connection with this article?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported to you as having said on page 68-B? In the article, is that correct?
Mr.Vinson. Yes. Excuse me, could you ask me that again I am not sure I understand.
Mr.Liebeler. You told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported you as having said on page 68-B, in the article, is that correct?
Mr.Vinson. What he reported to me as having said is taken from the story that I wrote in the Star Telegram.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not tell him this personally?
Mr.Vinson. I did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather than use what I told him, I don't know why, for some reason he just quoted from my story. He didn't attribute that statement to the story. However, Inoticed——
Mr.Liebeler. But it is a direct quote of what you had said in your story in the Fort Worth Star?
Mr.Vinson. I believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of the paragraph. Let me look at it. Where it says according to our code, I believe the wording was, "According to the code of us 7- and 8-year olds being in Lee's gang was a high honor." I believe that is about the only big change.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any other conversations with Jackson about Oswald other than what we have discussed here about Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. Well, about what I knew of Oswald?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Vinson. Well, one day he came by the office in Arlington and talked to me for about an hour, and I told him what I have told you about what I remembered about Oswald, and then I gave him the information that I had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. And this was something else I was getting around to. I did talk to some of the people named in this story, in Fort Worth, in an attempt to get some pictures, and he went to—went ahead and contacted them anyway after I had already talked to them. He was a little more persistent than I was, and it is his story and his job, and I was just doing it in my spare time, but I didn't get too far in locating any pictures, and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the people that I had already talked to. One of whom was Nick Ruggieri, who at that time, or at the time Oswald came to high school, was B-team football coach at Arlington Heights High School, and Oswald had come out for football. Now this is not what Ruggieri told me. This is what Jackson told me and what I have read in the story.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to Ruggieri?
Mr.Vinson. Yes; I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss this with him?
Mr.Vinson. Yes. And he told me he barely remembered the kid, something to that effect. He said he had come out for a few days and just didn't show up after awhile. There is something in the story I think, that gives that, and I think it quotes another coach who said he quoted Oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect.
Mr.Liebeler. When you talked to Ruggieri, he didn't mention anything about that, did he?
Mr.Vinson. No; he didn't. He just brushed it aside very hurriedly. He didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the B-team and he had disappeared after a few days.
Mr.Liebeler. On page 72, of the article, Ruggieri is quoted as saying, "Itold the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish practice with a sprint, just like the others.
"He gave me the same answer. I told him to hand in his cleats."
The answer refers to a statement that Oswald is reported to have made to Ruggieri that he, Oswald, would not sprint with the other boys, saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he didn't want to.
Did you ever discuss this subject with Ruggieri?
Mr.Vinson. No; I didn't. I don't know if he was just being evasive and didn't want to answer me, or what. But like I say, I didn't press him for any direct information about Oswald, but I just casually asked if he knew him.
I believe I didn't even ask him anything specifically about Oswald.
I called him and told him who I was and that Life Magazine asked me to try to locate some pictures for them of Oswald, and I asked him did he know of any existing that I might be able to make arrangements for Life to get ahold of, and I think he just volunteered that he didn't remember much about Oswald, and I didn't press it.
But apparently Jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to speak with Jackson than he was with me.
Mr.Liebeler. Has the FBI ever talked to you?
Mr.Vinson. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Secret Service?
Mr.Vinson. The only time the Secret Service talked to me was last night when he called and asked me to come over here.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered that you think would be helpful to the Commission's work as far as your knowledge of Oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. The only thing that I can think of offhand, this has probably been brought to your attention, I don't know—I feel sure it has—of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on the cover of Life is a composite picture and is not really the actual thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it on. I didn't read this. This was in Newsweek. I didn't read it. I was told about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the Commission.
Mr.Vinson. There was one other thing that I noticed also. Maybe I am wrong and I should possibly go back and reread this before I make any statements but I notice in the picture there is a scope on the rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of 1963, and it says in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of 1963, apparently shortly after he bought the rifle. I think it says he bought it in March.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope on it when he bought it?
Mr.Vinson. I think this just was something that came out in my discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation just—somebody just made the observation.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of Oswald by the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr.Vinson. No. The only one I know about was the place in Grand Prairie, unless I got my facts all crossed up. I was thinking the only scope I knew about was mounted, I thought was mounted at the range out in Grand Prairie. Is that correct? Was there one mounted there?
Mr.Liebeler. Not as far as anybody else knows.
Mr.Vinson. Maybe I am confused. I guess I am confused about it, but I think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which I thought was in the fall of '63.
Mr.Liebeler. There may well be something to that effect, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.
Mr.Vinson. I know.
Mr.Liebeler. But you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to anybodythat ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope for Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. No. My connection with the whole thing has not amounted to anything. I came to Dallas the day of the assassination because my newspaper sent practically everybody over here. I was at the police station. I am not a photographer. However, I carry a camera, and I was sent to the Dallas Police Station to take pictures, because I was the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. And I stayed there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of generally ran errands. I didn't do any actual reporting, but that was when it first came to my attention.
Well, let me rephrase that. When I heard the name Lee Oswald, when the reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was Lee Oswald, immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately I remembered when I had heard it, and I associated it with my second grade class, and I even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over here that day.
Mr.Liebeler. Unless there is anything else that you can remember about your contacts with Oswald or your conversations with others about him that you think would be helpful, I have no other questions at this point, I would like to thank you for coming over from Fort Worth on such short notice.
Mr.Vinson. I am happy to do it.
Mr.Liebeler. The Commission appreciates your cooperation.
The testimony of Hiram Conway was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Jenner. Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Conway. I do.
Mr.Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren Commission was authorized by a Senate joint resolution of the Congress of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come to be known as the Warren Commission.
The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had some contact with a man by that name?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And we want to ask you a few questions about it.
Mr.Conway. I will be glad to answer them.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are a native Texan, are you?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is your age?
Mr.Conway. I'm 57, will be 58 next month.
Mr.Jenner. I will be 57 next June. You reside in Fort Worth, Tex.?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And your business, occupation, or profession is what?
Mr.Conway. Tool inspector for General Dynamics.
Mr.Jenner. The General Dynamics Corp.?
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Conway off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. Back on the record. How long have you held that position as tool inspector for GD?
Mr.Conway. I am sorry—will take me a moment to think.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Conway. It was in 1945, August 25, when I went to work there—in 1945—August 23, 1945, and sometime in November, I believe the 16th, is when I went into tool inspection. That's approximate.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any connection with Leslie Welding Co., at any time?
Mr.Conway. With what?
Mr.Jenner. With Leslie Welding Co.? [Spelling] L-e-s-l-i-e.
Mr.Conway. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know a man by the name of Tommy Bargas?
Mr.Conway. I can't recall—I don't recall that name Tom Bargas—I don't recall the name.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you tell us the circumstances and what occurred?
Mr.Conway. Well, he was a child when he moved into our neighborhood.
Mr.Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Conway. Yes; where I live at the present time, and he moved in two doors from me, 7408, I believe it was two houses.
Mr.Jenner. Ewing?
Mr.Conway. Ewing; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And that is a single-family frame dwelling?
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and dining room together.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Conway. I'm not absolutely sure when they moved in there.
Mr.Jenner. You say "they," who is that?
Mr.Conway. His mother and his older brother, who is a half brother.
Mr.Jenner. John Pic?
Mr.Conway. Yes; his oldest brother, and then Robert Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. So, there were three boys and a mother?
Mr.Conway. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a husband or father?
Mr.Conway. No; there was no man about the house. John was the oldest one on the place.
Mr.Jenner. And about how old was he at that time?
Mr.Conway. I believe he was around 8 or 9.
Mr.Jenner. Let's see, let's see—what year was that?
Mr.Conway. Oh, it must have been—I'm not quite sure, but I moved there in 1948, and I'm not sure—I moved there in September or October.
Mr.Jenner. October of 1948?
Mr.Conway. And I'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of the year or not, but it was just shortly after I moved there.
Mr.Jenner. He was born October 18, 1939, so in 1948, at the time you are talking about, he would be approximately 9 years old.
Mr.Conway. Approximately—yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You had children at that time?
Mr.Conway. I had one daughter.
Mr.Jenner. Age?
Mr.Conway. Well, at that time, I'm almost ashamed—I don't know exactly when my daughter was born—1933, I believe, so that would be 15.
Mr.Jenner. About 15 years old?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. So your daughter would have had little or no contact with Lee who was then 9 years old?
Mr.Conway. No; very little. She was associated quite a bit with John. She and John were approximately the same age. I believe John might have been slightly older than her, maybe 1½ or 2 years, I'm not quite sure.
Mr.Jenner. Your daughter is now married?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is her married name?
Mr.Conway. Mrs. J. C. Bell (Spelling) B-e-l-l.
Mr.Jenner. Where does she live?
Mr.Conway. She lives on Santa Fe, I think, it's 2904.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall her telephone number?
Mr.Conway. CI 4-2394, it would be—Circle. I'm almost sure that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Is Mrs. Conway living?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How long did the family live there?
Mr.Conway. How long did they live there?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Conway. I think almost 4 years—it was in the vicinity of 4 years. It might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was approximately 4 years.
Mr.Jenner. And did these boys come to your attention?
Mr.Conway. Oh, yes; John was a real nice kid and he was a friend of mine, you know, a young friend. I taught him to play chess.
Mr.Jenner. You did?
Mr.Conway. Yes; I did, and he made an excellent player, I understand. I think he's runner-up in the championship at Lackland Air Force Base.
Mr.Jenner. Is that so?
Mr.Conway. I think so—John is a fine fellow.
Mr.Jenner. And because of your relationship especially with John Pic, you came to know the other boys, too?
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir; fairly well.
Mr.Jenner. In and around the neighborhood?
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. But having in mind Lee Oswald, at the age of 9, and by the time he left, he was 13, you had less contact with him?
Mr.Conway. I had very little contact with him, just to see him in the neighborhood was all.
Mr.Jenner. Did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a judgment as to his general disposition?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you describe that and tell us something—some incidents about it?
Mr.Conway. Well, he was quick to anger and he was, I would say, a vile nature—he was mean when he was angry, just ornery—he was vicious almost, you might say, is the best word I can describe it.
Mr.Jenner. Did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with his two brothers, Robert and John?
Mr.Conway. Yes; John was a very genuine character, a fine boy.
Mr.Jenner. What about Robert?
Mr.Conway. Robert was much more spunky than John, but Robert didn't very often get into much trouble.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing like Lee?
Mr.Conway. No; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for children to throw stones at, like Lee did. He was a bad kid.
Mr.Jenner. Did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in the neighborhood?
Mr.Conway. Yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually seeing him fight—the children didn't fight with him much, they got out of his way. They would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have caught one of them.
Mr.Jenner. Was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of 4 years or were they isolated incidences?
Mr.Conway. Naturally, it's hard to say, but I would see those things not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my mind. I didn't see him very often—I have seen him try to fight with his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that—I don't—it's been a long time.
Mr.Jenner. Was he left alone a good deal?
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir; quite a lot.
Mr.Jenner. Describe that circumstance, will you please?
Mr.Conway. That would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately because no more than I know about it, but I do know he would get home—I would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "Where is Lee," and they would say, "He's in the house," or something like that and that's about all I would know. But I would see him in and out. He had a dog that he was very fond of, Lee did, and I would see him play with the dog around the place and I would have reason for accurate knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being absolutely sure—I'm not.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a recollection now whether Mrs. Oswald, his mother, worked?
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir; she did work and I have heard my wife speak of where she worked, but I don't recall. She worked days and I usually worked nights—I usually worked nights.
Mr.Jenner. So you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this 4-year period as a rule?
Mr.Conway. I believe it was. I'm not absolutely sure but I believe it was.
Mr.Jenner. At least off and on during the 4-year period you did work nights?
Mr.Conway. I'm almost sure that I did.
Mr.Jenner. So that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and after school at least?
Mr.Conway. It's funny, but I'm not so—not absolutely sure what year I started working nights. I know I worked nights before I moved to Fort Worth and I moved to Fort Worth from Grand Prairie in 1948, and that was the—was before the Oswalds came, and I know I worked nights before they moved into that neighborhood and I took a preference to the second shift, so I did work the second shift at all times when it was possible since that time. It's more than likely that I was on the second shift almost all times they were there.
Mr.Jenner. Did a time come when the family moved?
Mr.Conway. Yes; and I don't remember exactly what year it was but it must have been in 1951 or 1952.
Mr.Jenner. If they came in 1948, and they were there 4 years, that would be 1952.
Mr.Conway. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Now; had either of the older boys already left before the family moved?
Mr.Conway.Well——
Mr.Jenner. Take this boy who you took a particular interest in—John Pic.
Mr.Conway. John went into the Coast Guard at sometime and it seems to me that he joined the Coast Guard before they moved away, but I'm awful cloudy on that.
Mr.Jenner. Well, have you exhausted your recollection on that?
Mr.Conway. Well, I don't know—I remember talking to John—John, when he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and I remember talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the Coast Guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. I believe he left before his mother did. He left and went into the Coast Guard before his mother moved away.
Mr.Jenner. You—could you refresh your recollection that he did leave before the mother and Lee left?
Mr.Conway. I believe I remember that.
Mr.Jenner. And he was in the Coast Guard and stationed in New York?
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. New York City, Staten Island, as a matter of fact?
Mr.Conway. Well, I didn't know. He married a girl in New York City and I believe—I believe my wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her that she was going to New York on account of John being there. After John left, I didn't have much contact with them at all, because John was my contact with them.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether Robert was still with the family when Mrs. Oswald picked up and left? Or had he also entered the service?
Mr.Conway. That, I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. You would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this vicinity, whom you think might recall him.
Mr.Conway. What year did you say he was born in?
Mr.Jenner. 1939, October 18.
Mr.Conway.1939——
Mr.Jenner. If he were alive, he would be approaching 25 years of age—this would be his 24th year and he would be 25 years old next October.
Mr.Conway. Well, I have discussed it with the Masseys, they live across the street.
Mr.Jenner. Give me their full name and address and telephone number, if you will?
Mr.Conway. And they don't remember it. It is H. R. Massey. What I was fixing to say, I was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by house. The Masseys don't remember—I don't believe Barbara Anne does, Barbara Anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age, but I heard her say that she didn't remember him at all.
Mr.Jenner. Is Barbara Anne living with her folks?
Mr.Conway. No, sir; she's married now. I don't know what her last name is.
Mr.Jenner. Well, maybe I could find out from her mother, Mr. and Mrs. H. R. Massey.
Mr.Conway. [Spelling] M-a-s-s-e-y.
Mr.Jenner. And they live across the street from you?
Mr.Conway. That's right—they live at 7425 Ewing.
Mr.Jenner. Do I have your permission to talk with Mrs. Conway?
Mr.Conway. Oh, yes; I suggested that she come with me and save a trip.
Mr.Jenner. Yes, that would have been nice.
Mr.Conway. I don't know why she wouldn't but she knows what she wants to do.
Mr.Jenner. I probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if she is free, tomorrow afternoon.
Mr.Conway. Well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you mention it to her when you get home and I'll call out home sometime tonight?
Mr.Conway. All right.
Mr.Jenner. And we will leave it up to her?
Mr.Conway. I'm sure she would be glad to do all she could.
Mr.Jenner. Can you think of any others?
Mr.Conway. The Turners, they just live—oh, Bill Bridges would be the age of John Pic. He was just another one of the kids in the neighborhood that I taught to play chess at the same time, but he was older and there was no other children in that range, and John is as old as my daughter.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I might talk with him on the telephone.
Mr.Conway. I don't know where he lives. He is with Halliburton, I believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too.
Mr.Jenner. Is that Halliburton, Tex.?
Mr.Conway. No; that's Halliburton Oil Co. I don't know where the home office is.
Mr.Jenner. Have you seen him around Fort Worth?
Mr.Conway. Bill?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Conway. The last time I saw him he came to my house and brought his family and it's been quite a little while ago.
Mr.Jenner. His first name is William and his last name is what?
Mr.Conway. Bridges (spelling) B-r-i-d-g-e-s.
Mr.Jenner. Well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can find him that way.
Mr.Conway. He is with Halliburton, I remember the last time I talked to him.
Mr.Jenner. The older boys were attending high school and Lee was attending elementary school, what elementary school is that?
Mr.Conway. I'm sorry—I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. And the high school?
Mr.Conway. It would be Arlington Heights. These schools are changing so rapidly and increasing so until I just don't know.
Mr.Jenner. During this period of time, did you become acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Conway. Yes; I knew Mrs. Oswald. She was in my house a few times.
Mr.Jenner. I wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of Mrs. Oswald, particularly with respect to the—to her care of these boys and Lee Oswald during this 4-year period.
Mr.Conway. Well, I think she was—my impression was that she felt burdened with them and I think she showed a selfish attitude towards her children.
Mr.Jenner. Selfish?
Mr.Conway. Selfish—yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Would you elaborate on that, what do you mean by that?
Mr.Conway. Well, I don't have words for it except that it appeared to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. She didn't care—they were embarrassed about their dress.
Mr.Jenner. They were?
Mr.Conway. Some of them were—John, especially and sometimes Robert, I think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good kids about it, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Did John speak to you on that subject?
Mr.Conway. No, sir; John wouldn't ever say anything against his mother. My daughter told me that someone said something about—hearsay, you see, is about all I know about such things, but my daughter told me that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said, "She's my mother." He stood up for her and that's all he would say.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from this remark that you just made that the boys, at least John, certainly John, did some work after school?
Mr.Conway. John sold shoes, I think, he worked in a shoe store for a time. It seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this distributive education thing and I believe that's how he got his job.
Mr.Jenner. And did Robert work also?
Mr.Conway. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. What about Lee?
Mr.Conway. I don't think so. Robert would have if he could have gotten a job.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of Lee on that score, was he industrious or not?
Mr.Conway. Yes; he was—you mean Robert?
Mr.Jenner. No; I mean Lee.
Was he industrious?
Mr.Conway. I don't rightly know, I have lost contact with them and he was too small.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any impression as to whether this was an emotional child?
Mr.Conway. Yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush and he would just storm at other children.
Mr.Jenner. He was quick to anger?
Mr.Conway. Yes; quite quick.
Mr.Jenner. And did he seem to be a sensitive, an overly sensitive child?
Mr.Conway. I suppose so—I thought he was a very strange type of person and at the time I thought he was considerably above the average in intelligence around that age—being 9 or 10 or 11, I mean, to catch on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things.
Mr.Jenner. What is your middle initial, do you have one?
Mr.Conway. P. (Spelling) P-i-e-r-c-e.
Mr.Jenner. You probably wondered why I asked you about Leslie Welding Co. Do you know a man by the name of Hiram L. Conway with Leslie Welding in Fort Worth?
Mr.Conway. No, I don't. I knew there was a Hiram—that—there's more than one Hiram Conway, about three or four in Fort Worth, I understand. I never heard of Leslie Welding.
Mr.Jenner. Oswald worked for Leslie Welding at one time.
Mr.Conway. He did?
Mr.Jenner. We have an FBI report on an interview with Hiram L. Conway and that's why I started out with you on that.
Mr.Conway. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. From the time that the Oswalds left Fort Worth in 1952, from that time on, did you ever see Lee Oswald?
Mr.Conway. Never saw him again.
Mr.Jenner. Or John?
Mr.Conway. Oh, yes; I see John.
Mr.Jenner. He comes to visit you occasionally?
Mr.Conway. John never comes to Fort Worth without coming to see me.
Mr.Jenner. And Robert?
Mr.Conway. Robert never comes to see me.
Mr.Jenner. Robert lives in Fort Worth.
Mr.Conway. Well, I don't ever see him at all.
Mr.Jenner. He never comes back to pay you a visit?
Mr.Conway. No.
Mr.Jenner. And Marguerite, have you seen her since they left?
Mr.Conway. Sincewhen——
Mr.Jenner. Since 1952?
Mr.Conway. My wife has talked with her since then. Just briefly.
Mr.Jenner. Since November 22d?
Mr.Conway. No, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just a few days before that. I wouldn't think it was over 5 or 6 weeks. She ran into her in a department store. No, I don't believe that I saw Mrs. Oswald at all, but I'm not sure. I've seen her so many times on television and she looks just like she always did except a little heavier and a little older, but I don't recall having seen her, but I remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me.
Mr.Jenner. Does anything occur to you that I haven't been stimulated to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the Commission in its work?
Mr.Conway. When you were talking on the phone, I was trying to think of anything, but I don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even to go with what you have.
When I said that Lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he had picked up chess from Bill Bridges and John—you see, I taught Bill and John to play chess and Robert picked it up from them and then Lee picked it up from them, and I think I remember hearing the boys say Lee would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would lose a game.
Mr.Jenner. You heard that, too?
Mr.Conway. Yes, I have heard he would become angry.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Conway, you have the privilege of reading your deposition after Miss Oliver has written it up and to sign it or to waive that privilege.
Mr.Conway. Well, I don't care anything about reading it—I know what I have said.
Mr.Jenner. If there is nothing else, this will conclude your deposition. I certainly appreciate your coming in.
The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of your deposition.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, three documents.
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive those?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret—and don't feel offended by this—but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs.Murret. I understand.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, did you not?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with you, that you will be able to help us.
Mrs.Murret. Well, I will if I can.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your knowledge.
Mrs.Murret. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.
(Glass of water given to witness.)
Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs.Murret. Claverie.
Mr.Jenner. How do you spell that?
Mrs.Murret. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E.
Mrs.Jenner. And your first name is Lillian?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Were you born in New Orleans yourself?
Mrs.Murret. New Orleans; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Were your brothers and sisters born here?
Mrs.Murret. They were.
Mr.Jenner. In New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana—Cajuns.
Mr.Jenner. Cajun and American?
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, not my grandparents.
Mr.Jenner. Not your grandparents?
Mrs.Murret. No. On my father's side were from France, and my grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?
Mrs.Murret. What my age is?
Mr.Jenner. How old are you?
Mrs.Murret. I will be 64 in May, May 17.
Mr.Jenner. And how old is Marguerite?
Mrs.Murret. I think she should be 57.
Mr.Jenner. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret.
Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.
Mrs.Murret. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.
Mr.Jenner. Edward John Pic?
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Is that P-I-C?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an explanation for that, do you think?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know which way it is.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took place?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not really too accurate as to years.
Mr.Jenner. Well, as closely as you can come to it.
Mrs.Murret. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 years, we'llsay——
Mr.Jenner. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you present? What do you know about that marriage?
Mrs.Murret. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very long time.
Mr.Jenner. She had known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Had you known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What was his business or occupation?
Mrs.Murret. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores.
Mr.Jenner. What did he do as a stevedore?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.
Mr.Jenner. He is alive?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. I don't know what the initials stand for.
Mr.Jenner. T. as in Thomas?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And B. as in Benny?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Smith?
Mrs.Murret. Smith, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he is—some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, saw him out there, but it was from a distance.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite married Edward John Pic?
Mrs.Murret. I was already married.
Mr.Jenner. You were already married then?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John Pic, does he?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't guess some of it is.
Mr.Jenner. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the Commission in this investigation.
Mrs.Murret. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and somebody else—lawyers.
Mr.Jenner. Was Sere a lawyer?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer too.
Mr.Jenner. How do you spell his name?
Mrs.Murret. Mr. Sere?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. S-E-R-E.
Mr.Jenner. Is Mr. Sere still alive?
Mrs.Murret. He is not.
Mr.Jenner. He is dead?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about Marguerite's first marriage.
Mrs.Murret. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she toldme now, I know nothing, you know, other than that—but she said Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and so forth while she was working.
Mr.Jenner. How old was she then?
Mrs.Murret. Well, let's see—John must be about 31 years old now.
Mr.Jenner. You mean her son John?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.
Mr.Jenner. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that be about right?
Mrs.Murret. Twenty-six—I don't think she was that old; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, 31 from 57 is 26.
Mrs.Murret. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. Let's see—well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, you see.
Mr.Jenner. Oh—well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22 years.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.
Mr.Jenner. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 years old; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think that's about right.
Mr.Jenner. What was her formal education?
Mrs.Murret. She had a high school education.
Mr.Jenner. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.
Mr.Jenner. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, previous to that.
Mr.Jenner. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied to her as to his income, did you not?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City Park area; is that right?