The testimony of Julian Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Julian Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr.Jenner. You are Julian Evans, husband of Myrtle Evans, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Evans just left this room after giving her deposition, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you live at 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Evans, you are a native-born American, is that correct, sir?
Mr.Evans. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. Where were you born?
Mr.Evans. New York.
Mr.Jenner. New York City?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How long have you lived in this area?
Mr.Evans. New Orleans?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Evans. Well, about 54 years.
Mr.Jenner. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Evans?
Mr.Evans. D. H. Holmes; salesman—major appliances.
Mr.Jenner. How long have you lived on Prytania, at that address?
Mr.Evans. Let's see—it's going on 15 years now.
Mr.Jenner. And you are Mrs. Evans' second husband, is that right, sir?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Were you married before?
Mr.Evans. No.
Mr.Jenner. During your lifetime you came to know the Oswald family, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes; the boy and his mother.
Mr.Jenner. Marguerite and Lee?
Mr.Evans. Yes; and there was another brother—two other brothers.
Mr.Jenner. John Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right. I met them for the first time when we were across the lake, around Covington, La.—the three boys and Marguerite, and Pic—no; I mean Ekdahl; that was before she married him.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl was over there with them?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know where Mr. Ekdahl was from?
Mr.Evans. From Boston. That was the first time I ever saw any of the boys.
Mr.Jenner. They were then living over in Covington, and that was during the summer, is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know what that address was over there?
Mr.Evans. No; I don't remember that address. I think they rented a place over there.
Mr.Jenner. This was in 1946, is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's about right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, there are two addresses given for that place, 611 West 24th Street, Covington, La., and 311 Vermont Street, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Well, I don't know the address. We didn't go to the house.
Mr.Jenner. You went to a picnic, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes; we went to a picnic over there.
Mr.Jenner. And Mr. Ekdahl was there with Marguerite and the children, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes, he was there, and I talked to him. He was a lot older than she was, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl was a lot older than Marguerite?
Mr.Evans. Yes; he was.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of Mr. Ekdahl at that time?
Mr.Evans. Very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. He seemed to know his business. He talked about rocks and ore and things like that, and I enjoyed talking to him. That's the only time I have ever seen him.
Mr.Jenner. I forgot, Mr. Evans, but you did receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, did you not?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And enclosed with that letter was Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And Executive Order No. 11130 of Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as in your case; is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You became aware, I take it, from these documents that you received that the Commission was empowered and directed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I represent the legal staff of the Commission, along with Mr. Liebeler, and our purpose for being here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have had with the Oswald family, and particularly Lee Oswald, during his lifetime, and we understand that both you and Mrs. Evans did have some contact with the Oswalds, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you appeared voluntarily here today, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and Mrs. Evans stay over at Covington more than a day on this occasion that you began to tell me about?
Mr.Evans. No.
Mr.Jenner. You just visited over there on one occasion?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you visit at Covington on any other occasions?
Mr.Evans. No.
Mr.Jenner. And this was in 1946, so Lee would have been 6 or 7 years old, is that right?
Mr.Evans. I guess; he was pretty small.
Mr.Jenner. And the other two boys were also with her, you say?
Mr.Evans. Yes; they were all with her over there.
Mr.Jenner. Were they in school at the time, do you know?
Mr.Evans. I think they were in school. They were on vacation, I believe, because this was during the summer; I am pretty sure they were on vacation over there.
Mr.Jenner. The two boys, that is, John and Robert, they were in a school that was different from the school that Lee was attending, if he was attending school, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Well, I don't know if he was attending school or not, but I don't think they went to the same school. These other boys went to an out-of-town school, I think.
Mr.Jenner. That's what I was getting at. I was trying to have you say it voluntarily, rather than me say it. Do you understand that they were attending a military school over in Mississippi?
Mr.Evans. Those two boys; yes.
Mr.Jenner. The two older boys?
Mr.Evans. Yes; I'm pretty sure that that's right.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee was with his mother; he stayed with her?
Mr.Evans. Yes; with his mother and Mr. Ekdahl—you mean in Covington now?
Mr.Jenner. No; in Texas; this was just a summer vacation over in Covington, isn't that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you get as to the life and habits and personality of Mr. Ekdahl and Marguerite and Lee, that is, when they were not on vacation—when they were moving from place to place in the pursuit of Mr. Ekdahl's line of business, from city to city?
Mr.Evans. Well, I think Marguerite and Ekdahl got along pretty well, except for the kid. I mean, he wanted his own way about everything.
Mr.Jenner. You noticed that?
Mr.Evans. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was quite apparent to you even though this was vacation time when you saw them over in Covington?
Mr.Evans. I don't understand that.
Mr.Jenner. I said, was this apparent to you even when they were on this picnic over in Covington that you told us about?
Mr.Evans. Yes; you could notice that. It seemed like all his life, Lee wanted his way, and that's what he wanted.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But you did notice that yourself?
Mr.Evans. Oh, yes, I did; definitely I noticed it.
Mr.Jenner. Was that the first time that you had met either Marguerite or Ekdahl?
Mr.Evans. Yes; that's the first time. I may have met Marguerite before but not Ekdahl, and not the boys either, but Marguerite was working on Canal Street in some hosiery shop, and I might have seen her there. I know Myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so I probably had met her before. I just don't remember now.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of a person was she?
Mr.Evans. She was a very fine person, a nice looking woman—well educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get the impression that Mr. Ekdahl and she, apart from this vacation, traveled a lot?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Because of his work?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Living in hotels?
Mr.Evans. That's right; they lived in hotels and also they took Lee with them.
Mr.Jenner. They took Lee with them?
Mr.Evans. Yes; everywhere.
Mr.Jenner. In traveling on his job?
Mr.Evans. That's right. They were living in Texas for awhile, I believe, and then he did some traveling in Texas, New York, and other places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went.
Mr.Jenner. You and Mrs. Evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with Marguerite, did you not?
Mr.Evans. That's right. Of course, my wife knew her more years than I did. She knew her a long time before she was even married.
Mr.Jenner. That's right; our information shows that.
Mr.Evans. She knew her when she lived down on Alvar Street.
Mr.Jenner. That was before you had any contact with the Oswald family, is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Has your wife given you any of the details regarding the background of the Oswald family?
Mr.Evans. Yes; over the years we have discussed it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife told you, because we have taken her deposition, but I just want to know what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth.
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Were you married to Mrs. Evans when the Oswalds lived at 1454 St. Mary?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You were?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about that. How did that come about? How did you first come to know them.
Mr.Evans. Well, she came to town, and she wanted an apartment.
Mr.Jenner. From where did she come?
Mr.Evans. Well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't get along, or something.
Mr.Jenner. Lillian Murret, is that who you are talking about?
Mr.Evans. Yes; her sister; she lives downtown.
Mr.Jenner. Lillian Murret?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And she is Marguerite's sister?
Mr.Evans. Yes; I think her and the boys were living there, and they couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment, or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment, but not for the same amount of money, or something like that—I don't know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that, but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the French Quarter.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know where?
Mr.Evans. Well, it's some little short street down in the French Quarter, you know, right off of Canal. It's not such a good neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that.
Mr.Jenner. Would that be Exchange Alley?
Mr.Evans. Exchange Alley, yes; that's it. We took them on vacation one time on a week end across the lake with us.
Mr.Jenner. You did?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about that.
Mr.Evans. We took them over to my sister-in-law's place, across the lake.
Mr.Jenner. When you say across the lake, which lake is that?
Mr.Evans. Lake Pontchartrain.
Mr.Jenner. And where's your sister-in-law's place across the lake?
Mr.Evans. At Sun, La. They are in the sand and gravel business over there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they stock it themselvesand they have some nice fish in there, and so Lee and the boys were down there fishing, but Lee didn't talk to the other kids or anything. He just seemed to want to be alone, and he just fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank after he would catch them. Now, the other small boys would catch them and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would throw the others back, but not Lee. He would pull them in and just throw them down on the river—I mean on the bank by the pond and just let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left them there. Something like that is hard to understand. He didn't catch them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. He just left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. We couldn't understand that at all. It showed how totally inconsiderate he was of everything. It was a good example of how he acted, and his general attitude.
Mr.Jenner. How old was he at that time?
Mr.Evans. He was just a young fellow.
Mr.Jenner. About 13, 14 or 15 years old, would you say?
Mr.Evans. Yes; somewhere around there. I believe he was going to Warren Easton at the time, or he went to Easton shortly after that.
Mr.Jenner. He first went to Beauregard Junior High School, is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes; and then he went to Warren Easton when he was about 14, I think. He wouldn't talk much. If you talked to him, maybe he would answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first. That's the last time I saw him until he came back from Texas looking for a place to stay.
Mr.Jenner. When Lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? I mean, did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant?
Mr.Evans. He was arrogant.
Mr.Jenner. Can you remember some incident that would illustrate that for us?
Mr.Evans. Well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he would holler real loud, "Maw, how about something to eat?"
Mr.Jenner. He would be demanding, you mean?
Mr.Evans. Yes; real demanding, and loud. He wanted her to come right now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed.
Mr.Jenner. It was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he was home, or anything like that?
Mr.Evans. No; it was real demanding. He would know where she was when she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have to go right now.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the regular time?
Mr.Evans. Oh, about the regular time, I think. I don't think he ever stayed away from school. I think he went to school all right, but, I mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. That was the thing.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever associate with any of the children in the neighborhood?
Mr.Evans. No; he didn't. He didn't associate with anybody.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember anything about his habits? Did he stay in the apartment, or go out, or what?
Mr.Evans. He stayed mostly in the apartment. Now, when he lived upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read. He always had a few books around, paper covered books.
Mr.Jenner. Paperbacks?
Mr.Evans. Yes; paperbacks. He had a lot of them.
Mr.Jenner. Did he go to the public library and get books?
Mr.Evans. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that, but he did a lot of reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say he was a voracious reader?
Mr.Evans. Yes, he read; he read all the time. I mean, from what I noticed by him being around the apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered about, or that you thought unusual or strange?
Mr.Evans. He seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times—always thinking. He was hard to get to.
Mr.Jenner. He was hard to get to?
Mr.Evans. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever feel that you ever got to know Lee Oswald, Mr. Evans.
Mr.Evans. No; I can't say that I ever did. I don't think anybody did. I don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was nobody could figure him out. It was hard to get to him or to understand him. He didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. He never went out of his way to make friends, I mean, from what I knew of him.
Mr.Jenner. He sort of shied away from friends, or people who might have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him?
Mr.Evans. Yes; that's it. You would try to be nice to him, but he wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't appreciate it. My sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with him when we had him across the lake to their house. They asked him to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be by himself. Finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any attention to him. Kids are like that, you know. If he wanted to be that way, that was all right with them. They just went ahead and enjoyed themselves, and to heck with him. They didn't let him bother them at all with the way he acted.
Mr.Jenner. As I gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "OK, we won't be friendly; see if we care"; is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was given there as 1454 and then later it was changed to 1452; what was that all about? Could you explain that?
Mr.Evans. Well, there was nothing to that. They just moved from upstairs to downstairs. We were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs, that's when she got mad and left, but, really, Lee had become very noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have him back in that apartment for that reason—because he was actually disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. You could really tell when he was home.
Mr.Jenner. You could?
Mr.Evans. Oh, yes; in fact, Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't seem to care who heard him or what he said. You knew he was home, all right.
Mr.Jenner. Did some friction arise between Mrs. Evans, the landlady, and Mrs. Oswald about that time?
Mr.Evans. Yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that at all, and then she moved away.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say that Lee was a very impervious fellow?
Mr.Evans. Yes; I would say that. He had what I would call a foghorn voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. He had a good speaking voice, though; I will say that; very good.
Mr.Jenner. Now, after this incident in which Marguerite took over other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about or have any contact with either Marguerite or Lee Oswald?
Mr.Evans. When he came back there to look for an apartment.
Mr.Jenner. That would have been last spring?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. May?
Mr.Evans. Around May.
Mr.Jenner. May of 1963?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, I think, and I was about to leave for work, because I was due at work pretty soon, but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and she helped him get an apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Did you notice anything unusual about Lee when you first met him that day?
Mr.Evans. Well, when I shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything.
Mr.Jenner. A fishy handshake, was it?
Mr.Evans. That's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's the way he shook hands.
Mr.Jenner. You mean he didn't have a firm handclasp; is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right. His hand was not solid, like the average person that you shake hands with. It was soft. I had understood that he had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of a mechanic.
Mr.Jenner. Had you heard anything about him before he came to your house that day?
Mr.Evans. You mean in connection with this Cuban thing?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; anything about that?
Mr.Evans. No; that came after that.
Mr.Jenner. All right; we'll get to that in a minute. When he got to your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes; she answered the door?
Mr.Jenner. She answered the door?
Mr.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he could find one, or what?
Mr.Evans. Yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and they sat down and we talked a few minutes before I had to leave.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and your wife recognize him then?
Mr.Evans. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Immediately?
Mr.Evans. He hadn't changed. He was talking a little more. I noticed that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was the same Lee Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. You recognized him right away; is that right?
Mr.Evans. Yes; I recognized him. We talked for a little bit, but I had to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because I had to get to work. I was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so I didn't get to see him for very long that morning. When I left, my wife was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment, and at that point I had to leave. I left then and went to the office. Later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment, and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr.Jenner. He had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.?
Mr.Evans. That's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over from Texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over.
Mr.Jenner. Did your wife question him in your presence about his alleged attempt to defect to Russia, and whether or not he had renounced his American citizenship?
Mr.Evans. Well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. He said he was only a tourist in Russia, or something like that. He said he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did not intend to ever give up his American citizenship. The next thing we knew, we were watching television,and his picture came on there, as big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. I think it was on Canal Street—no; I think that was on Bolivar. Anyway, the signs read, "Free Cuba," or something like that.
Mr.Jenner. Could that have been "Fair Play for Cuba"?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. What was your reaction when you saw this on the screen?
Mr.Evans. Well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on Magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not to go. She said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Then neither you nor your wife visited them at their apartment on Magazine Street; is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. You did not?
Mr.Evans. No.
Mr.Jenner. And they never did visit you after that, either; is that right?
Mr.Evans. That's right. They didn't visit us, and we didn't visit them.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion of President Kennedy at this breakfast that you had with your wife and Lee that morning he first showed up—at least, before you left for work?
Mr.Evans. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were there, at least?
Mr.Evans. No. Like I said, I just finished a cup of coffee and left. I had to get to the office.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see Lee Oswald in any fits of temper, so to speak?
Mr.Evans. No; I didn't. I never did actually see anything like that, but I could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother and so forth. I mean, but I never did actually see him at times like that. He would be up in the apartment. From what I could hear, though, I could tell that he was very demanding of her.
Mr.Jenner. Very demanding of his mother?
Mr.Evans. Yes; he was.
Mr.Jenner. What other impressions did you have of this boy?
Mr.Evans. Well, I thought he was a psycho. I really did. He was so young to be acting the way he did. Of course, there is no doubt that his mother really spoiled him. She would do just about anything he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or anything like that, and I understand that he was the cause of his mother's divorce from Ekdahl. Ekdahl said that Lee was more demanding of his mother than he was, and he was her husband.
Mr.Jenner. You had the impression that Lee came between her and Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.
Mr.Evans. Marguerite?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Evans. I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken—a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no other way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks old.
Mr.Jenner. Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr.Evans. That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thingon television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.
Mr.Jenner. Were you home when her picture came on television, along with this news of the President's assassination and Oswald's arrest?
Mr.Evans. No; I was at the store at the time. It was on television there.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do when you saw it?
Mr.Evans. I immediately called my wife, and I said, "Do you have the television on?" and she said, "No," and I said, "Well, put it on." I said, "They are holding Lee Oswald as the assassin," and she said, "No; that can't be!" and I said, "Turn on the television and see for yourself."
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever observe anything about Lee Oswald that would lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence on the person of anybody else?
Mr.Evans. No; he was a good talker.
Mr.Jenner. He was a good talker?
Mr.Evans. Yes; he was. He had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his age, anyway; so I guess all that reading he did must have accounted for that. Also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother or wanted her to do something for him. I used to think it was pretty awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. She would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that she could. But he did have a booming voice. You don't see a voice in a kid like that, at 13 years old, very often. His voice was just about changing then, at that early age.
Mr.Jenner. Did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other children?
Mr.Evans. Yes; I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of this man in general when he came back to New Orleans in 1963 and you had occasion to see him?
Mr.Evans. In what way?
Mr.Jenner. Well, say, with respect to money; what was his financial status?
Mr.Evans. You mean this boy?
Mr.Jenner. Yes, Oswald; what was his status with relation to income or the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? What did you learn about that?
Mr.Evans. Well I don't think he had any money.
Mr.Jenner. That was your impression; that he had no money, or any outside source of money?
Mr.Evans. Yes. He couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife and child. He had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he couldn't afford anything better. He did not have money; that's what seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. We just figured if he was getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for anything.
Mr.Jenner. Then you saw no evidence of him having any money?
Mr.Evans. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think it possible that he might have received any substantial quantities from any other source?
Mr.Evans. No; I don't. Even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he didn't have a coat on that I ever saw.
Mr.Jenner. No coat?
Mr.Evans. Just a sport shirt is all, when I saw him. I don't know of any other income he could have had. Of course, his mother might have been helping him. If it was possible, I know she would have helped him. I don't think his brothers helped him any.
Mr.Jenner. Does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation; anything that I might not have asked you about,or that I just didn't know about, and that you think might be of assistance to us in this investigation?
Mr.Evans. No; not a thing.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter, and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your deposition. However, you don't have to do that. You can waive that right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to Washington, to the Commission. Now, what is your preference in that regard?
Mr.Evans. I will waive that.
Mr.Jenner. You will waive that privilege?
Mr.Evans. Yes; I can't think of anything else besides what I have already told you. I didn't actually know Lee too well, because he just wasn't the type of man you could get close to. He just sort of lived in his own world, I guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at least that was my impression, and I did have enough contact with him that I could arrive at my own opinion.
Mr.Jenner. All right, Mr. Evans. Thank you very much for coming in voluntarily and answering these questions.
The testimony of Philip Eugene Vinson was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise and I will administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Vinson. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission To Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
The Commission's rules require that a witness be given 3 days' notice prior to the time that he can be required to testify. I don't think you have been given 3 days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that notice if you want to.
I assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to waive it and go ahead.
Mr.Vinson. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to give you now a copy of the Executive order that I just mentioned, plus the Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking of testimony from witnesses. You may keep those documents and refer to them as you wish.
The Commission understands that you were a classmate of Lee Harvey Oswald in the second grade?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. While that may not seem to have too much relationship to the events of last November, one of the purposes of the Commission is to try to determine, assuming Oswald's guilt, his motive. In that area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some relevance.
Mr.Liebeler. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would like you to state your full name.
Mr.Vinson. Philip Eugene Vinson.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live, Mr. Vinson?
Mr.Vinson. 4325 Baell Street, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. You are presently employed as a reporter for a Fort Worth newspaper, is that correct?
Mr.Vinson. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Which newspaper?
Mr.Vinson. The Fort Worth Star Telegram.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you been employed by them?
Mr.Vinson. Since July 15, 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of work have you been doing for them?
Mr.Vinson. Reporter.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any particular specialty, or just a general reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing?
Mr.Vinson. We have a bureau in Arlington, Tex., which specializes in covering suburban news in the community between Dallas and Fort Worth, and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and I am one of the two reporters in this bureau at this time.
Mr.Liebeler. So you are actually presently located or based in Arlington; is that correct?
Mr.Vinson. That's right. We have an office in Arlington.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been doing this same work ever since you went to work for the newspaper?
Mr.Vinson. No.
Mr.Liebeler. What other jobs have you had?
Mr.Vinson. When I started, I was given the routine work that most beginner reporters assume. You start out writing obituaries and just general assignments on the city side or working through the city editor, and I did that for about 6 weeks.
During this time I was doing this 4 days a week, while on Saturday they were training me to take over the police reporters job. And I worked 4 days out of the main office and 1 day from the police station for about 6 weeks.
And then around the first of September I became a full-time police reporter for the Evening Star Telegram, and I worked as a police reporter until about October the 1—excuse me, until about, I would say, around October 20, the latter part of October. I don't know the dates exactly, but I stayed as a police reporter for a little less than 2 months. Then the management decided that they were going to establish this bureau in Arlington, and I was chosen along with another reporter to come out to work in Arlington.
Mr.Liebeler. How old are you, Mr. Vinson?
Mr.Vinson. Twenty-three.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you born?
Mr.Vinson. July 6, 1940.
Mr.Liebeler. Where?
Mr.Vinson. Childress, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Where is that?
Mr.Vinson. It is just at the beginning of the Panhandle. It is about 120 miles west of Wichita Falls and about 150 miles southeast of Amarillo, just at the base of the Panhandle.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you live there?
Mr.Vinson. I lived there until the summer of 1947, with one exception. We moved to Fort Worth in 1945, 1946, for a short time, about 3 months, and my father was working in Fort Worth, but my mother and I, there was this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to live, so we moved back to Childress until my father was able to find us a place to live. That was in the summer of 1946, as I recall now, because I started to school in the first grade in Childress that fall.
Mr.Liebeler. Then you and your mother finally moved to Fort Worth?
Mr.Vinson. Yes; in the summer of 1947, we moved to Fort Worth, and that fall I started to school in Fort Worth, and that would have been the second grade.
Mr.Liebeler. You went to the first grade in Childress?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you went to the second grade in what school?
Mr.Vinson. Lily B. Clayton Elementary School.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you live in Fort Worth at that time?
Mr.Vinson. 661 Seventh Avenue.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr.Vinson. I have one brother.
Mr.Liebeler. Older or younger?
Mr.Vinson. Younger.
Mr.Liebeler. How old is he?
Mr.Vinson. Three.
Mr.Liebeler. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember when you first met him?
Mr.Vinson. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the second grade?
Mr.Vinson. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there before I got there.
In other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year.
The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs.
We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being the leaders.
But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around.
Mr.Liebeler. How many kids were involved in this altogether?
Mr.Vinson. Well, the boys in our class.
Mr.Liebeler. The boys in your second grade?
Mr.Vinson. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may be 15 or so.
Mr.Liebeler. Fifteen?
Mr.Vinson. Well, now, you mean in the class?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Vinson. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they were—there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class, and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys.
And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very vague, but I do remember this.
And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it seemed that the other boys used to look up to his—let me start over. They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later on.
And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a member of his little group.
And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a tough-guy type, although not as a bully.
Mr.Liebeler. He wasn't a bully?
Mr.Vinson. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he had any tendencies like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody?
Mr.Vinson. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out on the schoolground. Really not out of anger.
Mr.Liebeler. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys who you have described as bullies?
Mr.Vinson. Not that I recall.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you a member of Oswald's gang?
Mr.Vinson. No; I wasn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were?
Mr.Vinson. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of thing, you know, and I don't know that.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these out-of-school activities?
Mr.Vinson. I don't remember anything about him out of school.
Mr.Liebeler. I mean out of the classroom?
Mr.Vinson. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom, I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember Oswald ever having this happen to him.
He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very—my recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed to be a quiet type of kid.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size?
Mr.Vinson. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at all.
Mr.Liebeler. What is her name?
Mr.Vinson. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class who had remembered him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you what his name was?
Mr.Vinson. Bill Barnes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Barnes?
Mr.Vinson. I know who he is. I remember that he was in my room that year. We moved from that area uptown, and I only went to that school 1 year, and I remember his name, and I remember who he was, and I had occasion to see him several other times in Fort Worth.
He went to TCU over there, and I think he was a cheerleader or something, and I saw him at the TCU football games, and I just had run across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. I just saw him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed with him his recollection of Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. No; I didn't. I couldn't get hold of him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you try?
Mr.Vinson. Yes; I think I didn't try hard enough. I think I just didn't get an answer at the house or something.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mrs. Murphy tell you what conversation she had with Barnes about Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. Let me back up a minute. I believe she told me that she talked to Barnes' mother rather than Barnes himself, and Barnes' mother repeated something that Barnes had told her about remembering Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, for whatever it is worth, what did Mrs. Murphy tell you that Mrs. Barnes had told her, that Bill Barnes had told his mother about Oswald?
Mr.Vinson. Well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing, but it just goes along with the whole business. Barnes said that he remembered Oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of Popeye, "I eat me spinach".
That I do remember, although as far as Oswald speaking is concerned, I recall that I thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would say things like "Give me dat," or "dis" for this, and I took somehow I took, or associated this with New England or New York or Brooklyn or something, and I think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the gangsters were always from Brooklyn and talked with a Brooklyn or sort of dialect, and somehow I thought this made him tough.
But I later found out, of course, that he had lived in New Orleans and possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a speech impediment. I don't know, but I do remember that was what—was one thing that I do recall about him was the way he spoke.
Mr.Liebeler. Apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any particular difficulty getting along with the other boys?
Mr.Vinson. Not that I recall at all. Now, I don't know what he did after—outside of school. Like I say, to my knowledge, I knew a good many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever played with him or went to his house for anything after school. They could have, but I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact that Oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground?
Mr.Vinson. It didn't at the time. However, it did later, it seemed strange now. I don't recall that I thought anything at all about it at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. But you knew of none of the boys who ever went to Oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or outside of the playground, at that time?
Mr.Vinson. I knew of none, that is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know where Oswald lived?
Mr.Vinson. I didn't, but I somehow had the notion perhaps I had seen him walking home, but I had an idea about where he lived, about where I thought he lived, however, I don't know. I never went to his house or I never knew anyone who did, or anything like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know whether Oswald had any brothers or sisters?
Mr.Vinson. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald after you left the second grade at Lily B. Clayton School and moved away to another section at Fort Worth?
Mr.Vinson. If I did, I don't recall. It is possible, because I do recall that I ran across several of the kids that I had gone to school with over there after I moved away, but I don't know whether he was one of them. I just don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. What school did you go to? What school after you left Lily B. Clayton?
Mr.Vinson. G. E. Talldy Elementary School.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you go to high school from elementary school?
Mr.Vinson. No. I went to that school from the third grade to the sixth grade, and then to junior high for 3 years.
Mr.Liebeler. What junior High.
Mr.Vinson. Meadowbrook Junior High.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that in Fort Worth, also?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And from there you went to high school?
Mr.Vinson. Polytechnic High School.
Mr.Liebeler. Also in Fort Worth?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you gone to college?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where?
Mr.Vinson. I went to two colleges. I went to Arlington State College.
Mr.Liebeler. For how long?
Mr.Vinson. Well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. I went there in the fall of 1958, and the spring of 1959. The fall of 1959 and the spring of 1960. Part of the summer of 1960. Half of the summer, one semester. I did not go to college at all in the fall of 1960.
Then in the spring of 1961 I went back to Arlington State College, and in the fall of 1961, I went to Arlington State College, and the spring of 1962 I transferred to North Texas University in Denton. I went there that semester, both semesters, all of 1962, and the spring of 1962. The spring of 1963—excuse me, and half of the summer of 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you graduate from that school?
Mr.Vinson. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you major in?
Mr.Vinson. Journalism.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever met anybody since you moved away from Lily B. Clayton that knew Oswald either at Lily B. Clayton or anywhere else?
Mr.Vinson. I talked on the telephone to Richard Garrett. I wrote an article in the Star Telegram dealing with the fact that I had gone to school with Oswald in the second grade, and I couldn't pin it down and we really went off half-cocked without being certain when I wrote the story, when the story was published, although I did remember the name, and I had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although I could never find the teacher that—the day I was trying to do this and I couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in the second grade.
But nevertheless, I went ahead and did the article, but I was trying to contact everyone I could who had known him, to see if they could help me, and I talked to Richard Garrett who is mentioned in the Life Magazine story. He had known of Oswald in the sixth grade, and he had seen Oswald again when Oswald came to Arlington Heights High School for a short time, and he told me just a few things.
I didn't talk to him long. I asked him, of course, if he recalled what elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although he knew that he had gone to some others in Fort Worth.
Mr.Liebeler. He, being Oswald?