1The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the Commission appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.
1The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the Commission appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.
I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.
TheReporter. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Paine. I do.
Mr.Jenner. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Jenner. My material indicates that you were born in New York City.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. In 1932.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you remained in New York City until when?
Mrs.Paine. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?
Mrs.Paine. My family moved to New Jersey.
Mr.Jenner. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?
Mrs.Paine. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.
Mr.Jenner. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?
Mrs.Paine. No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.
Mr.Jenner. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.
Mr.Jenner. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. I must have been 10 or about to be 10.
Mr.Jenner. And you attended elementary schools and high school in Columbus?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?
Mrs.Paine. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.
Mr.Jenner. 1949 was it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?
Mrs.Paine. I did, in 1955.
Mr.Jenner. You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.
Mr.Jenner. And do you receive any kind of credit?
Mrs.Paine. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.
Mr.Jenner. Does Antioch College—I know you said you were of the Quaker faith—does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?
Mrs.Paine. No; it doesn't.
Mr.Jenner. What was your major at Antioch College?
Mrs.Paine. I majored in education.
Mr.Jenner. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.
Mr.Jenner. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Or group activities, at least?
Mrs.Paine. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.
Mr.Jenner. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?
Mrs.Paine. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.
Mr.Jenner. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was thata——
Mrs.Paine. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.
Mr.Jenner. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreationinstructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is recreation instructor and leader?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Also, apparently—I am not certain of this—that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?
Mrs.Paine. No; that would have been the following summer.
Mr.Jenner. That would be 1951?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And where did that take place?
Mrs.Paine. With the American Friends Service Committee?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.
Mr.Jenner. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That is after reentering Antioch.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I had so understood.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?
Mrs.Paine. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes.
Mr.Jenner. And was your position a position of recreation leader?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr.Jenner. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. What did you teach?
Mrs.Paine. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow learning class.
Mr.Jenner. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; was it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr.Jenner. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I recall that.
Mr.Jenner. Would you state what the nature of that was?
Mrs.Paine. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with theFriends——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me—Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.
Mrs.Paine. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.
Mr.Jenner. Where is Pendle Hill?
Mrs.Paine. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is aschool for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Friends, Quakers.
Mr.Jenner. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?
Mrs.Paine. Two words.
Mr.Jenner. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to—state it again.
Mrs.Paine. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.
Mr.Jenner. Oxford, England?
Mrs.Paine. England.
Mr.Jenner. And you alsoattended——
Mrs.Paine. A Young Friends Conference.
Mr.Jenner. At Reading, England.
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.
Mr.Jenner. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?
Mrs.Paine. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.
Mr.Jenner. Were they all emigres?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.
Mr.Jenner. That is a city in Russia?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.
Mr.Jenner. What was your particular activity in connection with this group?
Mrs.Paine. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.
Mr.Jenner. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change?
Mrs.Paine. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.
Mr.Jenner. In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their families here.
Mr.Jenner. That is the first of those three groups.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was the next?
Mrs.Paine. The second was the group of young adults that met once a week.
Mr.Jenner. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?
Mrs.Paine. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.
Mr.Jenner. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or Poland?
Mrs.Paine. No, no; they had been born here.
Mr.Jenner. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?
Mrs.Paine. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.
Mr.Jenner. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?
Mrs.Paine. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.
Mr.Jenner. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.
Mr.Jenner. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?
Mrs.Paine. No; I hadn't.
Mr.Jenner. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?
Mrs.Paine. No; had these activities?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Stimulated my interest?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.
Do you recall that as early as 1945—1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.
Mr.Jenner. This was aprivate——
Mrs.Paine. It is just a private farm; yes.
Mr.Jenner. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.
Mrs.Paine. Oh, no.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?
Mrs.Paine. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.
Mr.Jenner. You say entering a school at that time.
Mrs.Paine. I was about to enter high school.
Mr.Jenner. That was high school?
Mrs.Paine. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Friends Vacation Bible School?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mrs.Paine. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.
Mr.Jenner. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in there?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us a little bit more about that activity.
Mrs.Paine. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with craftsand——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?
Mrs.Paine. Working with children in crafts with them.
Mr.Jenner. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. University.
Mr.Jenner. University, was it?
Mrs.Paine. This was the school I attended.
Mr.Jenner. That was your high school?
Mrs.Paine. This was the high school.
Mr.Jenner. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I was.
Mr.Jenner. Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?
Mrs.Paine. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.
Mr.Jenner. By the families themselves?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing—more likely stories.
Mr.Jenner. Were these quite young children?
Mrs.Paine. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.
Mr.Jenner. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. You did not?
Mrs.Paine. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended inthe——
Mr.Jenner. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.
Mrs.Paine. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.
Mr.Jenner. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?
Mrs.Paine. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.
Mr.Jenner. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?
Mrs.Paine. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.
Mr.Jenner. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In what activity were you engaged at that time?
Mrs.Paine. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.
Mr.Jenner. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?
Mrs.Paine. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do? What was your work?
Mrs.Paine. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.
Mr.Jenner. During all of that period?
Mrs.Paine. During those 2 years.
Mr.Jenner. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I see. That is where my confusion arose.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?
Mrs.Paine. I think it would have been August.
Mr.Jenner. August 1955?
Mrs.Paine. It has to have been before school started.
Mr.Jenner. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?
Mrs.Paine. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.
Mr.Jenner. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough yesterday.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?
Mrs.Paine. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.
Mr.Jenner. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?
Mrs.Paine. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Isthat——
Mr.Jenner. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954–55, along in that time, didn't you?
Mrs.Paine. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, but they were not conferences.
Mr.Jenner. I see. I am using the wrong terminology.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them.
Mr.Jenner. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?
Mrs.Paine. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.
Mr.Jenner. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?
Mrs.Paine. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?
Mr.Jenner. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.
Mrs.Paine. It brings nothing to my mind.
Mr.Jenner. It does not?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That fits with my memory of it.
Mr.Jenner. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?
Mrs.Paine. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from the American Friends Service Committee, also.
Mr.Jenner. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting—was it a dinner—and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. They went on from—where was this, in Philadelphia?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And they went on from there to see other parts of America?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any native Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is to say up to November22——
Mrs.Paine. You mean people who had been born there?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.
Mrs.Paine. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.
Mr.Jenner. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Jenner. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.
Mrs.Paine. I don't think of any particular contact.
Mr.Jenner. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.
Mr.Jenner. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second one, was Nina Atarina?
Mrs.Paine. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.
Mr.Jenner. And she is the school teacher?
Mrs.Paine. She is.
Mr.Jenner. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 months?
Mrs.Paine. It would be a year, I am quite certain.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.
Mrs.Paine. I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to—I am not certain of the name of the organization—to cooperative alliance in Europe.
Mr.Jenner. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?
Mrs.Paine. Having to do with insurance; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Insurance companies?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that is my understanding.
Mr.Jenner. This is a commercial activity, isn't it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I believe so.And——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?
Mrs.Paine. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.
Mr.Jenner. What is the subject he is teaching?
Mrs.Paine. It has to do with insurance.
Mr.Jenner. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father aninsurance——
Mrs.Paine. He worked for the same company then.
Mr.Jenner. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Have your parents had any interests in political matters?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me what youunderstand——
Mrs.Paine. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.
Mr.Jenner. Is that something like what I would call a farmers cooperative?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know what farmers cooperative is.
Mr.Jenner. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is?
Mrs.Paine. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.
Mrs.Paine. That is a correct statement.
Mr.Jenner. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.
Mr.Jenner. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes.
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.
Mr.Jenner. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I think that is a fair statement.
Mr.Jenner. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?
Mrs.Paine. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.
Mr.Jenner. Have you finished?
Mrs.Paine. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that.
Mr.Jenner. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does—I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"
She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."
Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive—that is November 1.
Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"
She said: "Yes."
She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."
Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?
Mrs.Paine. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.
Mr.Jenner. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.
Mr.Jenner. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?
Mrs.Paine. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.
Mr.Jenner. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection, also.
Mr.Jenner. That is your recollection?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. And that was Mr. Hosty?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn'tserve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?
Mrs.Paine. It could have been.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's testimony?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I don't; no.
Mr.Jenner. It possibly could have happened that way?
Mrs.Paine. It certainly could have.
Mr.Jenner. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Paine. I did indeed. May I interrupt?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Could we have a short break?
(Brief recess.)
Mr.Jenner. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Jenner. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs.Paine. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs.Paine. That seems correct to me.
Mr.Jenner. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?
Mrs.Paine. No; she was not.
Mr.Jenner. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall it offhand.
Mr.Jenner. Your sister, Sylvia?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Or her husband?
Mrs.Paine. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes; of course.
Mrs.Paine. But you don't mean that?
Mr.Jenner. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.
Mrs.Paine. I don't have any specific recollection.
Mr.Jenner. And you never did?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Or your sister?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know that.
Mr.Jenner. Your relations with your mother and your father—would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.
Mr.Jenner. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?
Mrs.Paine. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Do you exchange correspondence?
Mrs.Paine. We do, and photographs of the children.
Mr.Jenner. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that has always been true, has it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?
Mrs.Paine. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters.
Mr.Jenner. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.
Mrs.Paine. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes.
Mr.Jenner. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?
Mrs.Paine. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?
Mrs.Paine. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.
Mr.Jenner. It covers a span of years going back to your college days?
Mrs.Paine. And a few papers prior to college.
Mr.Jenner. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. Back on the record, please.
We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.
Mrs.Paine. I gave no cash.
Mr.Jenner. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?
Mrs.Paine. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him uponce. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.
Mr.Jenner. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.
Mrs.Paine. That was in late April.
Mr.Jenner. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time?
Mrs.Paine. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and temperature.
Mr.Jenner. What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?
Mrs.Paine. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.
Mr.Jenner. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, whichwas——
Mrs.Paine. No, the shoes were for Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?
Mrs.Paine. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.
Mr.Jenner. Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?
Mrs.Paine. That is distinctly my impression.
Mr.Jenner. They never paid you anything, in any event?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs.Paine. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.
Mr.Jenner. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. At least during the time that Marina was with you.
Mrs.Paine. At least during the fall; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?
Mrs.Paine. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.
Mr.Jenner. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.
Mrs.Paine. That is my impression.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?
Mrs.Paine. I certainly do not recall.
Mr.Jenner. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?
Mrs.Paine. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.
Mr.Jenner. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?
Mrs.Paine. No; I recall no such.
Mr.Jenner. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera film?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?
Mrs.Paine. I read in the paper.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.
Mr.Jenner. And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?
Mrs.Paine. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different size.
Mr.Jenner. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.
Mr.Jenner. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had taken?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Or people?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?
Mrs.Paine. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money.
Mr.Jenner. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is Hutch's Market—is that something familiar to you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In Irving?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is—it is too far to walk—I am quitecertain——
Mr.Jenner. How far away is the place?
Mrs.Paine. It would be a 3-minute drive—about 10 blocks.
Mr.Jenner. Ten blocks away?
Mrs.Paine. Something like that.
Mr.Jenner. Is it further away thanthe——
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Leeto——
Mrs.Paine. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.
Mr.Jenner. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?
Mr.Paine. Yes; he did.
Mr.Jenner. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?
Mrs.Paine. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.
Mr.Jenner. On occasion did he pack a lunch?
Mrs.Paine. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or packed some food for him to take.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say there was anything regular about that?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You recall only that one occasion?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?
Mrs.Paine. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.
I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for identification.
They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.
(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?
Mrs.Paine. I recall that letter.
Mr.Jenner. And was it in 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was.