Mr.Taylor. Uh—well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June, returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Leestayed——
Mr.Jenner. That was at the time of that first meeting?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; at the time of the first meeting—at the end of it. And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall, some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings—more bulky ones other than clothing—to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And then he came to Dallas and—uh—took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did take residence at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your home, commencing that Sunday night?
Mr.Taylor. Approximately 2 weeks.
Mr.Jenner. And she brought with her what—in addition to her child, of course?
Mr.Taylor. Just clothing.
Mr.Jenner. And you were residing then where?
Mr.Taylor. At 3519 Fairmount.
Mr.Jenner. In what town?
Mr.Taylor. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12.
Mr.Jenner. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian, your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty with the language?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. How did you get along about your social intercourse between Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during this week?
Mr.Taylor. My social intercourse with Marina during this period was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were able to—uh—not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their being able to play with the children and the children play with each other.
Mr.Jenner. Did she have any visitors during that week—or did you say 2 weeks?
Mr.Taylor. Two weeks.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week period?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first hear from him?
Mr.Taylor. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday.
Mr.Jenner. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday meeting?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the Y.M.C.A.
Mr.Jenner. Here in Dallas?
Mr.Taylor. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him up.
Mr.Jenner. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front of the building?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—I think I did both. I remember specifically once going into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down.
Mr.Jenner. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement?
Mr.Taylor. Something—I just remember that I went in and asked for him and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going in and his coming down to meet me.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct?
Mr.Taylor. I believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that call?
Mr.Taylor. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife.
(Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.)
Mr.Jenner. Now where were we?
Mr.Taylor. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at some point during thisperiod——
Mr.Jenner. This is the 2-week period?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; the 2-week period—Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and picked Marina up.
Mr.Jenner. At your home?
Mr.Taylor. At my home—and took her, I believe, to a dentist.
Mr.Jenner. Now, how do you know this?
Mr.Taylor. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from her mother—and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the whole period Marina was gone—which, as I remember it, was the better part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a charity—went to a charity dental clinic.
Mr.Jenner. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law?
Mr.Taylor. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just mother-in-law.
Mr.Jenner. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law.
Mr.Taylor. That would be a stepmother to my wife.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic?
Mr.Taylor. No—not to my recollection. I didn't take—uh—Marina anyplace that I remember.
Mr.Jenner. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of Dentistry?
Mr.Taylor. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out at Baylor Hospital—but I'm not familiar with it otherwise.
Mr.Jenner. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your home—first, the month?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—it was in September of 1962.
Mr.Jenner. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none of it in the month of October 1962?
Mr.Taylor. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But—uh—I personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would—that Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came—she came to my home for a period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer.
Mr.Jenner. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr.Taylor. I believe I—uh—I may not have personally. I may have dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could talk to him.
Mr.Jenner. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either for yourself or for Marina?
Mr.Taylor. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable that I would have.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do so?
Mr.Taylor. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr.Taylor. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him there.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks about which we have not talked that arrested your attention?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—nothing, outside of possibly some insights into Marina—I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing that arrested my attention.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr.Taylor. Uh—she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine qualities—an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all that she could about her new environment.
Mr.Jenner. You don't mean her new environment in your home—you mean——?
Mr.Taylor. I'm talking about in this country.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Taylor. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her desire to learn English.
Mr.Jenner. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead.
Mr.Taylor. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions, this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning English—not—he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and say that he didn't want her to learn English but—uh—he was or did appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared for Marina several lessons in English—and I believe that Lee later took them away from her.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to have you give me as much on this series of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and becoming more proficient in its use. First—as to what you based your present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall? Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her theEnglish language lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That George Bouhe had prepared for her?
Mr.Taylor. George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her?
Mr.Taylor. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one occasion and as I remember he told me that—uh—or brushed it aside by saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"—something like that. And then, of course, he did take the lessons from her.
Mr.Jenner. How do you know that?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—because, as I remember, this was the first time that I had knowledge of her being beaten by him.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr.Taylor. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. DeMohrenschildt——
Mr.Jenner. They moved where? Into your home or from your home?
Mr.Taylor. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas—the first apartment they had, on Elsbeth.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from her,and——
Mr.Jenner. Lee had struck her?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; that Lee had struck her.
Mr.Jenner. She said that to you?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina that said that.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that.
Mr.Taylor. And—not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina left—I think this was somewhat later, probably inNovember——
Mr.Jenner. Left the home?
Mr.Taylor. Left Lee and went to stay with someone—I don't remember who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Taylor. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was told that she had left him.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home?
Mr.Taylor. The only other observation I would make is that—again, it has to do with relationship between them—and that is that to my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication between them—at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But, certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and woman married would want some time alone together. They could have—we had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could have taken walks and been alone together and talked—but this never happened.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mr.Taylor. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing intimate or personal between them at these meetings.
Mr.Jenner. No expressions that you could understand or, at least, conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were evidences of love and affection?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. It was more platonic—a friendship relationship?
Mr.Taylor. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during the 2-week period?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; on several occasions.
Mr.Jenner. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had been a previous arrangement—or what do you recall as to that?
Mr.Taylor. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their meetings, would call him and he would then come.
Mr.Jenner. Was he always transported, or did hecome——
Mr.Taylor. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We were not far from downtown and had good bus service—and I remember at least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and rode the bus back to town.
Mr.Jenner. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the streets?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or three occasions.
Mr.Jenner. With him?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, and I never did.
Mr.Jenner. You never got around to it?
Mr.Taylor. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to teach a beginner how to drive.
Mr.Jenner. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he was unable to operate an automobile?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Or with Marina through an interpreter?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence?
Mr.Taylor. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions they did try to get me to do it, and I refused.
Mr.Jenner. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. You never received anything?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and Lee Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. You never received anything from anybody at all?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from anybody."
Mr.Taylor. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the expenditures that I made on their behalf.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was there something that occurred in particular that brought about the termination of that 2-week guest period?
Mr.Taylor. Mrs. Hall—I believe you said Elena—had an automobile accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs. Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself food and so on.
Mr.Jenner. Was she living alone at that time?
Mr.Taylor. Yes she was.
Mr.Jenner. That is, Mrs. Hall?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by associatingit with either Midland or Abilene—I don't remember which one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time.
Mr.Jenner. And her leaving your home then—there was no cause or reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas and at that time they were, as you understood, separated?
Mr.Taylor. Or divorced. I don't remember which.
Mr.Jenner. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help care for Mrs. Hall?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, that would take us to about the last week in November—somewhere in that area—I mean September—is that correct?
Mr.Taylor. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of September, and possibly even early in October—again, due to time, this is all quite vague—I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had, through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's—is that where you went?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds' house paraphernalia, clothing and otherthings——
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to be more specific as to how this came about?
Mr.Taylor. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I got Lee that day. I wish I could—for several reasons you are probably aware of. But I don't remember.
And, at any rate, we went to FortWorth——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me.
Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of January 1964.
Mr.Taylor. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where Marina was living?
Mr.Taylor. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to say this about it.
That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item, it occurred to me that at one time—once—I went to—uh—and looked for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that—uh——
Mr.Jenner. Can you pinpoint this as to time?
Mr.Taylor. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I just remember some vague directionsthat——
Mr.Jenner. What about year—1962?
Mr.Taylor. 1962 definitely.
Mr.Jenner. And it had to be some timeafter——
Mr.Taylor. It had to be some time between September and November 15, because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and looking for Lee. I don't think I found him—at least, not on the occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directionsthat——
Mr.Jenner. From whom?
Mr.Taylor. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. Were you requested to seek to locate him?
Mr.Taylor. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just of Lee.
I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a building that stuck—or I had a recollection of one building in this area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know whathe——
Mr.Jenner. What location was that?
Mr.Taylor. I gave him the exact street address—but it seems to me like it was—well, the name of the apartment building was the Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z—I—E-i-g-h-t—apartments, and I think they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off on; but the name I do remember.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of a building was this?
Mr.Taylor. An apartment building.
Mr.Jenner. Brick?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds occupy prior thereto?
Mr.Taylor. Repeat, please.
Mr.Jenner. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than the Elsbeth Street home, for example?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—I would say it was in the same class.
Mr.Jenner. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?
Mr.Taylor. I'm not sure how definitely that was—I'm not definitely sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a Sunday afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home?
Mr.Taylor. I cannot remember.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage?
Mr.Taylor. I believe he did.
Mr.Jenner. Describe it, please.
Mr.Taylor. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this—Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile, and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?
Mr.Taylor. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place located from which you rented the trailer?
Mr.Taylor. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service station where I had rented a small covered trailerand——
Mr.Jenner. A small covered trailer?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; it was covered.
Mr.Jenner. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with Mr. Yelchek.
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your recollection?
Mr.Taylor. It—uh—could be University; yeah. However, it was not University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember. Thisservice station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a mile north of Texas Christian University.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mr.Taylor. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon investigation of the—visual investigation, actually being there one evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place.
Mr.Jenner. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first talked to the FBI?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. There is no question about it.
Mr.Jenner. Your more recent one is?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since then, that the owner says that—or there is no record of the rental at this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved—one for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too involved in it—just to know that there wasn't any record.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have your driver's license with you?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is?
Mr.Taylor. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking.
(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr. Jenner.)
Mr.Jenner. 1606670.
(Hands license back to witness.)
Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's license number on that occasion?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember. It's common—in fact, it's normal procedure to take the license number—driver's license and vehicle license.
Mr.Jenner. How long have you had that number?
Mr.Taylor. It's permanent in the State of Texas.
Mr.Jenner. So you had it on this occasion—the same number?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers? Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker—or what?
Mr.Taylor. Vehicle?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Taylor. They change from year to year.
Mr.Jenner. They change the number?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; they do.
Mr.Jenner. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit letters "E" and "Y"?
Mr.Taylor. I would never have a license tag with that number.
Mr.Jenner. With those prefix letters?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Why is that, sir?
Mr.Taylor. The "E" prefix—the prefixes beginning with "E" are for Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part.
Mr.Jenner. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are what—your prefixes?
Mr.Taylor. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all of the "N" and "P".
Mr.Jenner. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary."
Mr.Jenner. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three letters?
Mr.Taylor. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the three that we have just been discussing.
Mr.Jenner. From one of the three we have just discussed?
Mr.Taylor. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's and P's—like NA or NS or PA or PZ.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
You piled all this material in the covered trailer?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When did you return that trailer?
Mr.Taylor. The same day.
Mr.Jenner. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded trailer?
Mr.Taylor. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. And then what happened when you got there?
Mr.Taylor. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service station where I had rented it in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember for sure.
Mr.Jenner. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you, was it?
Mr.Taylor. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who paid for it. I—it comes to mind that Lee probably did—but I can't say specifically that Lee did it.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the trailer in the first instance?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether upon its return, he paid for it or you did?
Mr.Taylor. No; payment would be in advance.
Mr.Jenner. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not pay for it?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household furniture and whatnot into their apartment?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you do that before you returned the trailer?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their apartment that same afternoon or evening?
Mr.Taylor. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. Idon't——
Mr.Jenner. Back with you where?
Mr.Taylor. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer.
I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not.
Mr.Jenner. That would be how much of a ride?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—round trip it would take probably 1 hour and 15 minutes.
Mr.Jenner. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to Fort Worth—just approximately?
Mr.Taylor. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Next, and under what circumstances?
Mr.Taylor. Sometime after the move—I am not, again, can't be specific about dates—my memory isn't that good—I visited them by myself, and I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort Worth—I mean, on his visit to Russia.
Mr.Jenner. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front entitled"Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157. And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald on his trip or life in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing.
(Witness peruses document page by page.)
Mr.Jenner. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in New Orleans, and what not?
Mr.Taylor. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking.
Mr.Jenner. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete. That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which is indicated in these photostats—that is, lined 8 by 11½ sheets?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. It was not?
Mr.Taylor. No; it was not.
Mr.Jenner. Was it ringed notebook paper?
Mr.Taylor. No; it was not.
Mr.Jenner. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting?
Mr.Taylor. No; I am not.
Mr.Jenner. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it typed?
Mr.Taylor. I would not know—this material? I'm sorry. I was thinkingabout——
Mr.Jenner. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting?
Mr.Taylor. It was typed.
Mr.Jenner. It was typed?
Mr.Taylor. It was typed—on white paper.
Mr.Jenner. Plain white paper?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he showed you. Now, would you please go on?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever read it fully. I read a page or two of it—of which my recollection is very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in character, or do you have any impression about it?
Mr.Taylor. I don't have any impression—having read so little of it such a long time ago.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where was he living?
Mr.Taylor. He was still living on Elsbeth.
Mr.Jenner. And you reached their apartment, did you?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was she home?
Mr.Taylor. Yes, she was.
Mr.Jenner. Did you visit with them on that occasion?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably the only guest they had had—or at least certainly that guests were unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned.
And we just talked briefly that evening—not about anything in great detail. I stayed—I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed perhaps an hour or 2 hours.
Mr.Jenner. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other, on this occasion?
Mr.Taylor. It appeared that—uh—they were getting along well. When I arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was sitting at a table, I think, readingand——
Mr.Jenner. A book or a newspaper?
Mr.Taylor. Sir?
Mr.Jenner. Reading a book or a newspaper?
Mr.Taylor. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books from the library.
Mr.Jenner. Did you understand him to be an avid reader?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading?
Mr.Taylor. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy. I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy of—uh—at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the title or name of the book.
Mr.Jenner. "Das Kapital"?
Mr.Taylor. I'm aware of that title—but I just don't remember what he had a copy of.
Mr.Jenner. But they werepolitical——
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and philosophy?
Mr.Taylor. I would say primarily on philosophy.
Mr.Jenner. Philosophy or theories of government?
Mr.Taylor. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit on this particular evening?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see them again after that?
Mr.Taylor. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime muchlater——
Mr.Jenner. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962?
Mr.Taylor. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant?
Mr.Jenner. I had concluded you were speaking of priorto——
Mr.Taylor. No; I did make contact with them after my separation—if that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where they had moved.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mr.Taylor. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about a block away. And I went there.
Mr.Jenner. What street was that?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. What town?
Mr.Taylor. Dallas—about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I went to this—where I had been directed, and found Marina at home.
Mr.Jenner. Was Lee at home?
Mr.Taylor. No, he was not.
Mr.Jenner. What day of the week was this?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Why did you go there?
Mr.Taylor. Just for a friendly visit.
Marina was at home. She—her English had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that—uh—I don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attendingnight school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas—which is our technical high schooland——
Mr.Jenner. Was this occasion in the early evening?
Mr.Taylor. I think it was in midafternoon.
Mr.Jenner. Midafternoon?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Are you certain about that?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; uh—because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys—a ball and something or other—were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.
Mr.Jenner. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in Texas—and this was what? The spring, did you say?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mr.Taylor. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it was midafternoon.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was working at all.
Mr.Jenner. I shouldn't have used the term "working"—whether he was employed?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a very, very vague recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech?
Mr.Taylor. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at all at Crozier Tech.
I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and—uh—in other words, telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and we had separated. Uh—and she said that she had been ill, I believe. And—uh—she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10 minutes.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was in the night school?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; it was in the night school.
Mr.Jenner. But your visit was in the midafternoon?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening?
Mr.Taylor. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I don't—I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the time. She may have said he was at work or not at work.
Mr.Jenner. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she said he was employed and working and had work at that time?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—the general impression is that he was not working, but it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When was the last time you ever saw Lee?
Mr.Taylor. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last time I saw Lee.
Mr.Jenner. That was prior to November 15, 1962?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that time. I know that he wanted it very badly.
Mr.Jenner. He called you for it?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one, I think I got in the car and took it to him.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you now to give me—now that we've had this discussion between us—your impressions of the Oswalds individually.
(Off-the-record discussion followed.)
Mr.Taylor. Uh—my impression, first, of Lee would be that—uh—he was, first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject.
In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas as being true—such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and communism have.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Taylor. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was very superficial—and when you started digging down in to the meat of the subject, why, Lee was through.
He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very good case for it.
Mr.Jenner. Was he emotional in that respect?
Mr.Taylor. He would—uh—not any more so than anyone else you would get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly emotional subject on everyone's part.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't regard him as a vicious type—as a man who would think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—well, I thought of him as a man who—uh—would kick a dog or beat his wife, but—uh—I was never afraid of him because I never felt like that he would attack anything his equal.
Mr.Jenner. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you?
Mr.Taylor. Well, even a person—even a grown human being, any male, I wouldn't ever have expected this of him.
Mr.Jenner. Regardless of size?
Mr.Taylor. Regardless of size.
Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not have expected himto——
Mr.Jenner. Was he mild-mannered,or——
Mr.Taylor. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there was a very definite limit to it—even suggesting some inner cowardness.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had any black and blue marks on her person?
Mr.Taylor. [Pausing before reply.] No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or their policies?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at that time.
Mr.Jenner. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy.
Mr.Taylor. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor.
I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take exception to Government policies—definitely——
Mr.Jenner. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was he a drinking man?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Give me as best you can now recall—did you ever loan him any money or give him any money?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their behalf?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to Marina?
Mr.Taylor. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county.
Mr.Jenner. At least, you never assumed any of it?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You ever pick him up there?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, his personal habits in that respect?
Mr.Taylor. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and Marina?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She was fastidious, was she?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about it. It just had to be damp—it didn't have to be wet.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I are dressed now—in a business coat?
Mr.Taylor. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see him with a tie on?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Taylor. Uh—it's difficult to assess their relationship because there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I saw, they were quite in opposition to each other—such as the lessons in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been so active in seeing that they got along well.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee—such as where to look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee grabbed them and took them—whether it was what time to go to bed or where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA.
Mr.Jenner. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De Mohrenschildts.
(Looking through papers.)
Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are?
Mr.Taylor. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Taylor. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of course,all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in Russia and I believe he went tothe——
Mr.Jenner. Now, this is what you were told and heard while youwere——
Mr.Taylor. Married to his daughter.
Mr.Jenner. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a long period of time?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family. He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] v-o-n?
Mr.Taylor. That's right. And that he came to this country—when, I'm not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York City.
Mr.Jenner. Repeat the names, please.