Mr.Taylor. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother—the present Mrs. Brandel—in New York City.
Mr.Jenner. And was it your information that that was his first wife?
Mr.Taylor. To my knowledge, that was his first wife.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. They married approximately 3 months before she was born.
Mr.Jenner. Before your wife was born?
Mr.Taylor. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather quickly after she was born.
And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently well-established in business here, and owned a home—which, I believe, he had built to his own plans—and was generally well-accepted here in the business community.
And then he gets a little vague—at least to my knowledge—after that until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him—1958, I'm sure.
Mr.Jenner. Was he then married?
Mr.Taylor. He was then not married, to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.—whatever the particular alias she felt like at the moment. And I met them through her.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "her,"which——
Mr.Taylor. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter.
Mr.Jenner. Whom you subsequently married?
Mr.Taylor. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a half-sister of my wife's.
Mr.Jenner. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife?
Mr.Taylor. My former wife. This sure is involved.
Mr.Jenner. You are doing all right. Go ahead.
Mr.Taylor. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more until—uh—May or June of 1959.
Mr.Jenner. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a Nancy Tilton?
Mr.Taylor. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Who is she?
Mr.Taylor. She is a cousin of my wife at that time.
Mr.Jenner. And your wife's name was Alexandra?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
At any rate, I met—uh—at this time, I asked Chris out on a date and shesaid that she had her little sister—I think is the way she termed it at that time—visiting her, and could I find someone for her to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went out—couples of four, or two couples—on two occasions. And then I started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer—in fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date—or would you like the otherwise?
Mr.Jenner. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is.
Mr.Taylor. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married, as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed away—or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody.
When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs. Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go into court and get this custody set aside—at which time the daughter went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time.
Mr.Jenner. The daughter—this is Christiana?
Mr.Taylor. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex.
Mr.Jenner. Your former wife lived in Paris?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I met her.
Mr.Jenner. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence until I met her that evening, as previously described.
Mr.Jenner. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born?
Mr.Taylor. In China.
Mr.Jenner. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
My knowledge of her is that—uh—it's rather sketchy, because that's all my former wife knew of her.
She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side, was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through her late teens and early twenties—I don't know exactly how long—with her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers.
Mr.Jenner. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling].
Mr.Taylor. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have [referring to paper].
Mr.Jenner. Is that a maiden name or a married name?
Mr.Taylor. That is her married name—Jeanne's married nameto——
Mr.Jenner. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana?
Mr.Taylor. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Taylor. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China.
All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II. And, as far as Mr. Bogo—as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and—uh—he had severe mental problems and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he was resident of a State mental hospital.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar [spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft.
I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character to meet and to know—being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he seems to, when heworks, be able to make an awful lot of money and he must have money because they—Ragnar and Chris—honeymooned on a yacht that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked—which is a period of 2 years.
Mr.Jenner. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What's his name?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league university—Cambridge, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton? What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell?
Mr.Taylor. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever meet him?
Mr.Taylor. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him briefly on the telephone.
Mr.Jenner. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First, describe him. What kind of personality is he?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods—anywhere from extreme friendliness to downright dislike—just like turning on and off a light.
Mr.Jenner. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small, handsome, or otherwise?
Mr.Taylor. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a very powerfully built man, like a boxer.
Mr.Jenner. Athletic?
Mr.Taylor. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is a member of the staff.
Mr.Taylor. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would contact me.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of George De Mohrenschildt's—and I think I'm about ready to let you go home.
Mr.Taylor. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them.
Mr.Jenner. Is he unconventional?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life. The furnishings in their home somewhat show this.
Mr.Jenner. Is he unconventional in dress?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things like this, that—for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52—is a little unusual.
Mr.Jenner. You mean out on the street?
Mr.Taylor. On the street, as a constant apparel.
He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this could be in 32° weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned—only.
Mr.Jenner. On any time during the week?
Mr.Taylor. Any time during the week. They have always owned convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the respects you have indicated in regards to him?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; very similar.
Mr.Jenner. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does she?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini.
Mr.Jenner. What about his political philosophy?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—well, that's—uh—I have heard them say everything—from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia and live—so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that—again, so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife?
Mr.Taylor. In—let's see—on November 21, 1959.
Mr.Jenner. Your present wife?
Mr.Taylor. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963.
Mr.Jenner. Have you had any correspondence from either of the De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds?
Mr.Taylor. I have not personally received any correspondence at all from them. My parents have received correspondence from them—none of which mentioned—I take that back—in one case, the assassination was mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Taylor. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married.
Mr.Jenner. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the record. I will ask you first—is there anything you would like to add that occurs to you that you think might be helpful—as an occurrence having taken place or even general thoughts on your part—to the Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken?
Mr.Taylor. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that—uh—and I guess it was from the beginning—that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. On what do you base that?
Mr.Taylor. I base that on—uh—their desire, first of all, to—uh—return to Russia at one time and live there; uh—they have traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh—they took a trip to Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo, Tex., to the tip of SouthAmerica——
Mr.Jenner. Panama?
Mr.Taylor.And——
Mr.Jenner. On beyond that?
Mr.Taylor. Beyond—to the tip of South America—the southern tip of South America.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. Uh—and this they claim to have done, yet further information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area while all this training was going on. And, so, from that—from theseobservations——
Mr.Jenner. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that invasion preparation?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; because where—they went to Guatemala where the invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and—unbeknowing to anyone—and when these acquaintancesreturned——
Mr.Jenner. This was the trip during the time you were married to their daughter?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You are basing this information on communications from them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after they returned?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton?
Mr.Taylor. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital. This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, thepeople——
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Tilton reared her?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton'shome——
Mr.Jenner. Where is that?
Mr.Taylor. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh—Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in theirhome——
Mr.Jenner. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there?
Mr.Taylor. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully evicted them from it.
Mr.Jenner. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala?
Mr.Taylor. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names.
Mr.Jenner. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people who owned the house?
Mr.Taylor. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who owned it returned.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had advance permission to occupy that home?
Mr.Taylor. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks—as best the people who evicted them could determine from what was eatenand——
Mr.Jenner. In other words, they were trespassing?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
(Off the record discussion follows.)
Mr.Jenner. You are basing your comment with respect to the De Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De Mohrenschildts' daughter?
Mr.Taylor. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. What was that?
Mr.Taylor. Are you speaking of what I said off the record?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Taylor. I summed it up by saying that—uh—there was an indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they had traveled extensively through Communist countries.
Mr.Jenner. What countries?
Mr.Taylor. Poland and Hungary—no; I'm sorry. Poland and Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had met Marshal Tito.
Mr.Jenner. In Yugoslavia?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period that you were married to their daughter?
Mr.Taylor. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage. However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the family album—photographs of them in various Communist countries.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live—if you know?
Mr.Taylor. In Wingdale, N.Y.
Mr.Jenner. Is she married?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What's her husband's name?
Mr.Taylor. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson.
Mr.Jenner. What business is he in?
Mr.Taylor. I do not know.
Mr.Jenner. Where does Christiana reside—if you know?
Mr.Taylor. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other than that.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have already said that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission—that would open avenues for further investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is pertinent, that I have failed to bring out?
Mr.Taylor. No; there is nothing.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said on the record?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the right to waive that if you see fit.
Mr.Taylor. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You call, I would suggest—this is a rather long deposition—about Wednesday of next week.
Mr.Taylor. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much longer that I had anticipated—but you were very helpful and thanks for coming here despite the inconvenience.
Mr.Taylor. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help.
The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing voluntarily at our request?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if you wish counsel?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. But you don't wish counsel?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't wish it.
Mr.Jenner. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to waive the signing of your deposition.
Mr.Mamantov. It doesn't matter—what the proper procedure is—I would like to read those—it's always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right.
Mr.Jenner. That's your option—you may sign it or not, as you see fit.
Mr.Mamantov. That's my option—all right.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. On the record. If he wishes—it will be Thursday morning probably—we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would that be convenient for you?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning, then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish.
Mr.Mamantov. My name as you used my name was misspelled—I don't know if you want that—it was misspelled on my letter sent me.
Mr.Jenner. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go ahead and spell it for us now.
Mr.Mamantov. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not "en" as you have it.
Mr.Jenner. All right, give your full name and spell it.
Mr.Mamantov. I'll give you my full name.
Mr.Jenner. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and the address has been changed in the meantime too—to 2444 Fairway Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important.
Mr.Jenner. Did you give your telephone number?
Mr.Mamantov. AD-5-28—2873, it's a new number.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23.
Mr.Mamantov. The 22d.
Mr.Jenner. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that connection?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full address. What is your business, profession, or occupation?
Mr.Mamantov. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co.
Mr.Jenner. And how long have you held that position?
Mr.Mamantov. Since 1955.
Mr.Jenner. And is that your profession—a geologist?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And prior to 1952, your employment was?
Mr.Mamantov. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as seismologist.
Mr.Jenner. And over what period of time did that work extend?
Mr.Mamantov. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of 1955, when I took my present job.
Mr.Jenner. Let's take one step back—by whom were you employed, or with whom were you associated, prior thereto?
Mr.Mamantov. Lion Match Co.
Mr.Jenner. L-y-o-n [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York.
Mr.Jenner. In what capacity?
Mr.Mamantov. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, you atleast at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your profession or your particular calling?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced person and I didn't speak English enough.
Mr.Jenner. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster than I thought.
Mr.Mamantov. I'll put it this way—you want it in details—my life—approximately at that time?
Mr.Jenner. Not in great detail, but start out this way—I am a native of such and such country—and just tell us about yourself.
Mr.Mamantov. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my parents came to Latvia.
Mr.Jenner. They immigrated to Latvia?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944, we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg, P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year, excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp.
Mr.Jenner. "DP" meaning displaced persons?
Mr.Mamantov. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g [spelling], Germany.
Mr.Jenner. You say "we", at the time were you married?
Mr.Mamantov. I, oh, I was married all time.
Mr.Jenner. When did you marry?
Mr.Mamantov. 1938.
Mr.Jenner. A native of Latvia or of Russia?
Mr.Mamantov. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian—native Latvian.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, what is your age, sir?
Mr.Mamantov. 50 and, so, I am—my mother-in-law was also with us.
Mr.Jenner. Who is she—what is her name?
Mr.Mamantov. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling].
Mr.Jenner. And is she in this country?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later.
Mr.Mamantov. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and we haven't heard of him since that time.
Mr.Jenner. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something different from the Russians?
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know, Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an occupational force—I'll put it this way.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Mamantov. Or way of government.
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And where did you receive your higher education?
Mr.Mamantov. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia.
Mr.Jenner. And have you had graduate school education?
Mr.Mamantov. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D—it's actually between master's and Ph. D.
Mr.Jenner. When did you settle in Dallas?
Mr.Mamantov. In September 1955.
Mr.Jenner. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since?
Mr.Mamantov. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day.
Mr.Jenner. In 1955?
Mr.Mamantov. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex.
Mr.Jenner. Both you and your wife?
Mr.Mamantov. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis.
Mr.Jenner. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex.
Mr.Mamantov. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time.
Mr.Jenner. And was its main office located there?
Mr.Mamantov. No; this was the field party. The office is located here in Dallas and we traveled—at the start of 1951—Post, Tex.; Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell, N. Mex., and Ileft——
Mr.Jenner. I think that's enough.
Mr.Mamantov. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a month.
Mr.Jenner. Still employed by Lion?
Mr.Mamantov. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee, Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate, Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company at that time and went to Roswell to join the family.
Mr.Jenner. Is your wife a professional person also?
Mr.Mamantov. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went quite a way.
Mr.Jenner. She took legal training, training in the law?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, but she worked as a geologist—as geological computer for that particular company.
Mr.Jenner. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here?
Mr.Mamantov. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our law didn't exist at that time, as well you know.
Mr.Jenner. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission, and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr. Mamantov.
I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov—have you had 3-days' notice?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the taking of your deposition.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday—I had.
Mr.Jenner. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire, and do you agree to waive it?
Mr.Mamantov. I mean—I agree to deposition—I don't know your legal terms.
Mr.Jenner. We've got you into Dallas, now.
Mr.Mamantov. No; we got to Seminole—one more place I went from there. No; two more places—I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. With Sun?
Mr.Mamantov. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in October, the 1st of October 1955.
Mr.Jenner. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian language, with particular reference to—did you or have you done any teaching of the language?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area. I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in 1960–1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from—it was the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No—1962 and 1963. Now, I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU.
Mr.Jenner. Have you done any interpreting or translating?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think—yes—1961 I finished.
Mr.Jenner. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for any law enforcement agencies?
Mr.Mamantov. Here in the States?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. Let me think a little—no, I don't remember. I have translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the first time for the police department.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or translating?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22.
Mr.Jenner. What year?
Mr.Mamantov. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice.
Mr.Jenner. It was 1955 or 1963?
Mr.Mamantov. Excuse me, 1963.
Mr.Jenner. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior notice?
Mr.Mamantov. No; sir.
Mr.Jenner. You were called by some official of the city police department?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's Lieutenant—they call him Chief.
Mr.Jenner. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr.Mamantov. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of Lumpkin—is it important?
Mr.Jenner. I don't know—you might state what it is.
Mr.Mamantov. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)—I don't know how to spell his name right now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.
Mr.Jenner. And who is he?
Mr.Mamantov. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.
Mr.Jenner. All right, that was yourfirst——
Mr.Mamantov. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum.
Mr.Jenner. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with this tragedy?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did you?
Mr.Mamantov. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly well his background here in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. And you so advised the FBI?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was a half hour ahead of thetime——
Mr.Mamantov. This was approximately, I wouldsay——
Mr.Jenner. 4:30?
Mr.Mamantov. 4:30.
Mr.Jenner. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr. Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr.Mamantov. They sent a police car.
Mr.Jenner. To pick you up?
Mr.Mamantov. To pick me up—it was quite disturbing because there was sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you reside at that time?
Mr.Mamantov. 6911 East Mockingbird.
Mr.Jenner. East Mockingbird?
Mr.Mamantov. East Mockingbird Lane.
Mr.Jenner. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz.
Mr.Jenner. Go right ahead.
Mr.Mamantov. He took me into a room filled up with the detectives—before we entered that room, I had to pass through the hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people.
Mr.Jenner. You just went through that?
Mr.Mamantov. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that I saw.
Mr.Jenner. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there?
Mr.Mamantov. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine, whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you, your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943—we never were separated.
Mr.Jenner. Is her first name Dorothy?
Mr.Mamantov. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that moment? Knowingly?
Mr.Mamantov. No; sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had you ever met her prior to that time?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally.
Mr.Jenner. No; this is prior—up to that moment, you had had no contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought in and she also had a baby.
Mr.Jenner. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room?
Mr.Mamantov. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then, there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for whom I interpreted.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember his name?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him.
Mr.Jenner. And those were the persons?
Mr.Mamantov. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who was taking notes and sitting across at the desk.
Mr.Jenner. What is his name?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you?
Mr.Mamantov. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started with "H".
Mr.Jenner. Well, it might be "H"—Hosty.
Mr.Mamantov. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together.
Mr.Jenner. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the responses—the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave?
Mr.Mamantov. All right. Shall I go ahead?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you.
Mr.Mamantov. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this because—I mean—this was pure translation.
Mr.Jenner. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't you?
Mr.Mamantov. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's residence inIrving——
Mr.Jenner. To which she responded?
Mr.Mamantov. She responded.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is what I was getting at?
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, yes; she said she was living there.
Mr.Jenner. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but I'll have to, I'm sure, at times.
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember approximately what she was asked.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Mamantov. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's home. She answered positively then.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me—I'm sure that positively is affirmative?
Mr.Mamantov. Affirmative.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what time was this—5:30 or 6 o'clock.
Mr.Mamantov. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6 o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November.
Mr.Jenner. The previous evening?
Mr.Mamantov. The previous evening and including the night.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to eat breakfast.Now——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her?
Mr.Mamantov. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this—I don't want any of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall definitely.
Mr.Mamantov. No; I understand.
Mr.Jenner. There are bits of information that we have of things we would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no recollection, I would prefer you say so.
Mr.Mamantov. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.
Mr.Jenner. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your answers—do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen?
Mr.Mamantov. That morning.
Mr.Jenner. That morning—that she did go out to the kitchen that morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast?
Mr.Mamantov. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him and she ate.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you recall that she said that?
Mr.Mamantov. I understood—here's my problem—either I recall or I recall future instances from translating her life history.
Mr.Jenner. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to exclude from your mind—it is very difficult I appreciate—and to exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d.
Mr.Mamantov. I realize that.
Mr.Jenner. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do you understand?
Mr.Mamantov. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't return backward—I mean—come back to her—she didn't get up at the time he was leaving. After a while she got up.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the translatingyou——
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. At the city police station, that she said was that he left the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on.
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen?
Mr.Mamantov. She found that the coffee wasn't—I mean, or, she thought he didn't eat.
Mr.Jenner. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Mamantov. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage, and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit different position than she remember it before.
Mr.Jenner. Did she describe the configuration, shape—form of the blanket?
Mr.Mamantov. That's what I'm saying—I'll come to it. Then she was asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket. Now, she also said—she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it looked, she said, "Probably—yes," she has seen not the whole gun but she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this moment the gun was brought in.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared anybreakfast——
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. She then went to the garage; is that correct?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went to the garage.
Mr.Jenner. After she had inspected the kitchen?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that time?
Mr.Mamantov. No; I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Mamantov. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after Marina finished.
Mr.Jenner. Let's stick with Marina for the moment.
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, and did she respond on that subject?
Mr.Mamantov. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen ablanket——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the day. Do you recall that the question—is it because of the questioning, or she voluntarilystated——
Mr.Mamantov. No; because of the question.
Mr.Jenner. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and think about it.
Mr.Mamantov. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the exact time.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; they are important—you see, your responses when you first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage.
Mr.Mamantov. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen—I do not know.
Mr.Jenner. You cannot state it?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Does your recollection serve you that she went before noontime?
Mr.Mamantov. No; I cannot state.
Mr.Jenner. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the police arrived, which was in midafternoon?
Mr.Mamantov. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the questioning.
Mr.Jenner. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto?
Mr.Mamantov. About 2 weeks—yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your answer was "yes?"
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit?
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in the garage prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr.Mamantov. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit evasive answer.
Mr.Jenner. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your opinion as to whether it was evasive.
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it were there.
Mr.Jenner. She did notknow——
Mr.Mamantov. That it was there on that particular morning; however, she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that Lee took with him the gun and she was alsoasked——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and you translated it?