Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the blanket in the garage?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, sometime in the past.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the blanket in the garage prior to November 22?
Mr.Mamantov. If I remember right—yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she had discovered it prior to November 22?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us what she said in that regard.
Mr.Mamantov. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark brown—black, she said.
Mr.Jenner. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought in the room?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was actually brought into the room, and state what she said.
Mr.Mamantov. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know, she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, and at that time the gun was brought in.
Mr.Jenner. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go back.
Mr.Mamantov. All right.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of November 22, to examine the blanket?
Mr.Mamantov. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and this—I don't remember—here is my time lapse—whenever she saw it.
Mr.Jenner. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything?
Mr.Mamantov. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position as she has seen in the past.
Mr.Jenner. You mean in a different position, in a different place in the garage?
Mr.Mamantov. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't anything in it.
Mr.Jenner. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition?
Mr.Mamantov. I'll put it this way—condition.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say what the different condition was?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention—as she had seen before, so much I remember.
Mr.Jenner. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had seen it?
Mr.Mamantov. Evidently—if somebody, for instance, if you see a package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape.
Mr.Jenner. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22, what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again?
Mr.Mamantov. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package ofelongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she left it in same shape she had found it.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of the package?
Mr.Mamantov. No. No.
Mr.Jenner. Just the butt end?
Mr.Mamantov. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back so as a result, she—she didn't pull out all—she didn't open the package.
Mr.Jenner. Did they question her as to where the package was in the garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage when she saw it on November 22?
Mr.Mamantov. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in the garage in one of the corners.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say as to the difference and the content?
Mr.Mamantov. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the gun.
Mr.Jenner. It did not contain the gun?
Mr.Mamantov. It did not contain the gun.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain what she discovered was a rifle?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping of that character?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Was that subject brought up?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package brought into the room?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was with her when she did that?
Mr.Mamantov. I think—was police and Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Jenner. At the time that she examined the blanket?
Mr.Mamantov. Once for sure—I don't know what happened before that.
Mr.Jenner. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of Mrs. Paine and the police?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the police were present?
Mr.Mamantov. On one occasion; yes.
Mr.Jenner. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of the police?
Mr.Mamantov. This, I don't know for sure.
Mr.Jenner. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the garage on two occasions that day.
Mr.Mamantov. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like, as you say, to interpret—I would be very happy to relate everything I know. If you don't remember, you don't.
Mr.Jenner. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d.
Mr.Mamantov. Well, I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for you to testify one way or the other.
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Because I don't—all I want you to do is to tell, as best you can, your recollection of what took place.
Mr.Mamantov. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't.
Mr.Jenner. I do want to ask you this—you don't want to exclude by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior to the time the police arrived.
Mr.Mamantov. No; I don't want to exclude it.
Mr.Jenner. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to testify one way or the other on that?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition?
Mr.Mamantov. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package—she saw an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the size of the package she testified it was.
Mr.Jenner. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that she had seen the gun in sections?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Today?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; you can read it back—I haven't.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the record.)
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and she saw the stock of the gun so much—that I said—there—so much—you asked me.
Mr.Jenner. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will be certain of it and see if we can find it.
(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following:
("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.")
Mr.Jenner. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, what did she say?
Mr.Mamantov. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the point—I don't remember what time she saw—either she saw by herself or she saw during the time when police arrived.
Mr.Jenner. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the package, if she said anything?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific questions about particular blanket.
Mr.Jenner. What questions?
Mr.Mamantov. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape."
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's—what was the sequence, as you recall?
Mr.Mamantov. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the premises of Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Jenner. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is that correct?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun—when at the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she said she hadn't seen gun since the gun—she saw last time—and this particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun was with her belongings.
Mr.Jenner. Prior to November 22?
Mr.Mamantov. Prior to November 22—that's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And her response was in the affirmative?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to her?
Mr.Mamantov. Only physical item was gun.
Mr.Jenner. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was not brought into the room?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in, was the gun itself, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did it have the telescopic sight on it?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what I mean by a sling?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure—I wouldn't be sure of the statement.
Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before—where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.
Mr.Jenner. And what was her response?
Mr.Mamantov. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union—I can say so much for sure and that's where I didn't like this.
Mr.Jenner. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union—that was an observation on your part, not what she said.
Mr.Mamantov. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be—not to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she went back—when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet Union.
Mr.Jenner. Might have been?
Mr.Mamantov. It might have been—so, she didn't know. The question was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun—she was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are dark and black and that's all—so much she said about it.
Mr.Jenner. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you some more questions.
Mr.Mamantov. Before we get to the gun itself—all right.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that he had the gun that she had in mind?
Mr.Mamantov. This particular gun?
Mr.Jenner. Whatever gun she had in mind.
Mr.Mamantov. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns, he always was interested in guns—this statement she made.
Mr.Jenner. And he always had a weapon?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, he always had a weapon.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a rifle?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a reply.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination of the package and what she found—would you state as chronologically as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part—"I went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it, or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"—was she questioned that closely?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember, questions like you stated.
Mr.Jenner. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon in the blanket package?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember the question—neither question.
Mr.Jenner. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she was not examined on that subject?
Mr.Mamantov. I would say so—yes.
Mr.Jenner. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon she saw with him in his possession—unwrapped?
Mr.Mamantov. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was asked.
Mr.Jenner. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle—whether it was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt.
Mr.Jenner. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was in Russia?
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in Russia and supposedly was hunting here.
Mr.Jenner. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in the United States?
Mr.Mamantov. I'll put it this way—she said he was using his guns for hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here.
Mr.Jenner. She did not say that he hunted in the United States?
Mr.Mamantov. No.
Mr.Jenner. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June 1962.
Mr.Mamantov. No—the question was asked if he hunted here or not and reply to why did he have the gun—because she said he had hunted in Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun.
Mr.Jenner. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States?
Mr.Mamantov. Not in my presence.
Mr.Jenner. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth, sighting it and pulling the trigger—dry sighting; do you know what dry sighting is?
Mr.Mamantov. Right—no, she wasn't asked.
Mr.Jenner. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing about that at all?
Mr.Mamantov. Nothing about that.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the translatingor interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States?
Mr.Mamantov. No, not specifically, but this rifle—I'll put it this way—about her seeing him with a weapon.
Mr.Jenner. Any weapon?
Mr.Mamantov. Any weapon.
Mr.Jenner. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle was brought into the room? Is there anything else—don't be concerned about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said on this occasion is relevant to us.
Mr.Mamantov. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I remember—I think I said everything I could remember.
Mr.Jenner. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when the gun was brought into the room?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, was there a court reporter present?
Mr.Mamantov. If I remember right, the detective took down.
Mr.Jenner. Made notes?
Mr.Mamantov. Made some notes, and which were read to her.
Mr.Jenner. Eventually—that is, at the conclusion of the examination he summarized his notes in her presence?
Mr.Mamantov. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well—Mrs. Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I probably wouldn't write the same way—you don't expect every policeman to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or "me"—that's the mistake it was.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance correct?
Mr.Mamantov. She signed it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated?
Mr.Mamantov. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine—Mrs. Paine made a remark about the grammar.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I think—let's go ahead—the weapon is brought in.
Mr.Mamantov. All right.
Mr.Jenner. It is fully assembled?
Mr.Mamantov. It is fully assembled.
Mr.Jenner. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling?
Mr.Mamantov. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around—in that position (indicating).
Mr.Jenner. Holding it up—holding it like that (indicating)?
Mr.Mamantov. More or less—you see—inclined in that position.
Mr.Jenner. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are the same, are a dark brown or black."
He asked her again—"This," which was to me very dark or black colored. He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the gun—I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then they asked her about a sight on the gun.
Mr.Jenner. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; a telescope—she said, "No; I never have seen gun like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet Union.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say to you—is this a conclusion on your part that she referred back to the Soviet Union?
Mr.Mamantov. No—no—she said this way.
Mr.Jenner. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, so you can go ahead.
Mr.Mamantov. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union, she didn't know how to say—she said, "This thing."
Mr.Jenner. The telescopic sight?
Mr.Mamantov. The telescopic sight—she pointed to it with her finger.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever it was he had in the Soviet Union—her recollection was it did not have a telescopic sight on it?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket—this she said again—she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was the end of the gun"—which part they asked her—I think I am callingit——
Mr.Jenner. The stock?
Mr.Mamantov. She pointed to the stock—correct—and then she was asked about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black."
Mr.Jenner. Still referring to the stock?
Mr.Mamantov. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the past.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, it is your recollection that they questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she had seen, and her responses consistently were—they were, no matter how close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all she thought, to fairly summarize?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color you saw?" She said "Yes—yes, it reminds me of the same color." They particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the gun and hasn't seen the whole gun.
Mr.Jenner. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Mamantov. And they asked her, I think they came back again and asked her if she has seen him carrying something.
Mr.Jenner. Carrying something?
Mr.Mamantov. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something.
Mr.Jenner. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left that morning he was carrying anything?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And her response was?
Mr.Mamantov. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, or whatever he was taking—means of transportation.
Mr.Jenner. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a fair statement of her statements?
Mr.Mamantov. That's exactly right.
Mr.Jenner. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that previous evening?
Mr.Mamantov. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the extent of his arrival—well, I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left?
Mr.Mamantov. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having the gun, and "this is the gun he used."
Mr.Jenner. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous evening?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather than on Friday as usual?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Did they go into any questions with respect to the acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or in Fort Worth or in New Orleans?
Mr.Mamantov. At that particular time?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Over what period of time did this examination take place? What was its duration?
Mr.Mamantov. Roughly, I would say about 2½ to 3 hours. You see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two statements—from both of them.
Mr.Jenner. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's?
Mr.Mamantov. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's.
Mr.Jenner. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement, as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Paine's responses?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian.
Mr.Jenner. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said?
Mr.Mamantov. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2½ or 3 hours altogether for the typist to type that.
Mr.Jenner. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then sign them.
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. All of this took about 3 hours?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were present?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to Marina—yes, she did.
Mr.Jenner. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina, were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have testified?
Mr.Mamantov. No; I don't think so. I don't remember—personal conversation more or less about the child who was present.
Mr.Jenner. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian, were they conversations related to personal matters—the children?
Mr.Mamantov. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to her protection—Marina's protection.
Mr.Jenner. And what was that?
Mr.Mamantov. "What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr.Jenner. Who made that statement?
Mr.Mamantov. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Jenner. "What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr.Mamantov. What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr.Jenner. And what did Mrs. Paine say?
Mr.Mamantov. Well, then, she asked—are they going to send her back to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent, then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I didn't want to go into conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent—then you are innocent"—did you mean to imply by that that she would not be deported in that event?
Mr.Mamantov. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would happen to her.
Mr.Jenner. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the best of your recollection that was said?
Mr.Mamantov. In relation to Marina or to both of them?
Mr.Jenner. First, in relation to Marina—during the course of that 3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station.
Mr.Mamantov. I think I have told you everything I remember.
Mr.Jenner. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any problems in that connection?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time.
Mr.Jenner. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you teach Russian?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And have taught Russian?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs. Paine's command of the Russian language?
Mr.Mamantov. Say for—I can give only comparison for American person and for Russian person. I say for an American person—fair to good for knowledge of the language, for command of language—very poor.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or translated for Marina?
Mr.Mamantov. In person? In her presence?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. That's the only occasion.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this questioning?
Mr.Mamantov. Intentionally or unintentionally?
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think, either way.
Mr.Mamantov. Either way—yes, sir—I once on one Saturday, my mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store.
Mr.Jenner. Was this some time afterward?
Mr.Mamantov. Shortly afterward.
Mr.Jenner. How shortly—the next day?
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, no—the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the picture.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have occasion to speak with her then?
Mr.Mamantov. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young men around, so in my mind it occurred—this is Marina, but I was so surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her at the police station and my name is so and so.
In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am very tired."
That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going up again—excuse me—by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me somewhere—I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the last time you have seen her?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. You do—when did you first meet him?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back—are you through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr.Jenner. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything about this particular occasion.
Mr.Mamantov. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a gun.
Mr.Jenner. If Mrs. Paine knew?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct—it's important to you to know this, please?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; it is.
Mr.Mamantov. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew," and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is a—what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania?
Mr.Jenner. Quaker.
Mr.Mamantov. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's part.
Mr.Jenner. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the previous evening; is that correct?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Mamantov. You told me to say only what I know—I know this.
Mr.Jenner. I want you to state only what you recall, sir.
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember—this is overlapping two occasions—whether that was that evening, if you will show me the statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with him?
Mr.Mamantov. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956.
Mr.Jenner. You were then a resident of Dallas?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his physical characteristics first?
Mr.Mamantov. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud in society, likes to tell one company jokes—one sex jokes.
Mr.Jenner. He's a hail fellow, well-met type?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Garrulous, talkative?
Mr.Mamantov. Very.
Mr.Jenner. Expansive type?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. What color is his hair?
Mr.Mamantov. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that.
Mr.Jenner. Sort of a ladies' man?
Mr.Mamantov. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a—a divorce was pending.
Mr.Jenner. Did you become acquainted with his then wife?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that general area, who is now his wife.
Mr.Jenner. And what was her name?
Mr.Mamantov. I don'tremember——
Mr.Jenner. Was she a native born American?
Mr.Mamantov. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was the way she was called in the Russian society.
Mr.Jenner. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think?
Mr.Mamantov. I would say so—also of Russian.
Mr.Jenner. I was about to ask you—she was of Russian derivation?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. She was born in Russia?
Mr.Mamantov. That, I don't know—I don't know her, as well as I know George.
Mr.Jenner. She was not an American born?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born.
Mr.Jenner. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect?
Mr.Mamantov. He speaks perfect Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Is he a native-born American?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in Leige, Belgium—well, he finished here—I know for sure if we meet again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories, all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very small—actually was just a regular residence.
Mr.Jenner. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas?
Mr.Mamantov. In Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would be interested?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And did that church have a name?
Mr.Mamantov. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church.
Mr.Jenner. Eastern Orthodox Church?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean—just to describe a man thisway——
Mr.Jenner. You mean this is part of his personality?
Mr.Mamantov. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person wouldn't do it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to the extent you can—and the part he played in your life. I am getting at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas.
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, as you have described?
Mr.Mamantov. No—no, no; I haven't.
Mr.Jenner. Or known of him?
Mr.Mamantov. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places—it was in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long because of him. We just have some reason—we had a tendency to avoid this person as much as possible.
Mr.Jenner. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. From what he did and what you thought he represented?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Mamantov. I know that Marina related the conversations to my mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that remark was made to you?
Mr.Mamantov. I mean, it was made in a family—after my conversation between my mother-in-law and Marina.
Mr.Jenner. And there was yourself—and anybody elsepresent——
Mr.Mamantov. My wife was present.
Mr.Jenner. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your presence?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; that's correct.
Mr.Jenner. But Marina was not present at that time?
Mr.Mamantov. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives. Mother-in-law never have seen Marina—was except at a distance at Sears store, except that time.
Mr.Jenner. Your information is that there never was any direct contact between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone?
Mr.Mamantov. On telephone.
Mr.Jenner. And, was that by way of the telephone?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And you were not present, in the presence of your mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with Marina?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived—if I can take your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I don't want to take your time.
Mr.Jenner. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay.
Mr.Mamantov. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant at that time—you see the connection?
Mr.Jenner. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her?
Mr.Mamantov. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my mother-in-law—I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her because she needs a translator.
Mr.Jenner. You may bring her.
Mr.Mamantov. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to answer your questions.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, is that so?
Mr.Mamantov. She will understand what you are talking about but—as far as that—she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite nervous by being by herself and so on.
Mr.Jenner. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which I have tried to do with you.
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be, because the reasons I hesitate to say—"Yes, I remember." I don't remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to separate right now without going back and reading the report.
Mr.Jenner. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. They are friends of yours?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct; they are also friends of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; and on quite a few occasions.
Mr.Jenner. During any of those conversations was any reference made to a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City, Mexico?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. When was that trip supposed to have taken place?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know. Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time.
Mr.Jenner. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will leave it to them.
Mr.Mamantov. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet representatives andMikoyan——
Mr.Jenner. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes—who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This, actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this—this mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to organize the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Mr.Mamantov. No, no; he did not participate.
Mr.Jenner. He did not?
Mr.Mamantov. He did not—he never was interested in church life, but I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active participants in organizing the church.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about which you have testified—yourself,Bouhe——
Mr.Mamantov. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We came in 1955—this already was going for a couple of years.
Mr.Jenner. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons interested?
Mr.Mamantov. Mr.Bouhe——
Mr.Jenner. Bouhe, yourself, your wife?
Mr.Mamantov. My wife not so much—she is a Catholic.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Mamantov. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.—oh, gosh, what is her name—Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in the telephone book later on.
Mr.Jenner. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian intellectuals?
Mr.Mamantov. No.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I call you an intellectual.
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. I meant to imply that.
Mr.Mamantov. Put it this way—all of them have lower educational level than I do, except De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are interested in what?
Mr.Mamantov. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bitlow——
Mr.Jenner. As yours?
Mr.Mamantov. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called miners, and the Voshinins are the same.
Mr.Jenner. Who else?
Mr.Mamantov. Grigor'ev—this was the benefactor of that church. That's called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin, Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian—Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e [spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there—now, an Estonian couple who are very active—Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s [spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it exactly, we take the telephone book—all of these names are in the telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.
Mr.Jenner. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; and Mrs. Meller—right, and the closest relationship is between her and Mr. Bouhe.
Mr.Jenner. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; closest of all this group because these people actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the first time.
Mr.Jenner. Then, I'll ask you this general question—would you please state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free, in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.
Mr.Mamantov. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.
Mr.Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Mamantov. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, his behavior in the presence of ladies—to us suspicious political trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can say of him.
Mr.Jenner. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the Dallas office?
Mr.Mamantov. I haven't told them anything except I know of the assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the knowledge I have.
Mr.Jenner. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough—I don't want to suggest the conversation to you.
Mr.Mamantov. In relation to what?
Mr.Jenner. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what his political leanings were in her opinion?
Mr.Mamantov. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs. Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I stated that he is a Communist—we didn't hesitate.
Mr.Jenner. That was based upon the reports to you from your mother-in-lawas to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone from this country to Russia?