Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And had returned with Marina as his wife?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because after we found out—many people of Russian descent were somehow acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different sources of him and his political opinions.
Mr.Jenner. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly—give me your reaction to that.
Mr.Mamantov. My reaction—I never was asked to help them, never was approached by them or people who tried to help them.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression, that people were trying to help them?
Mr.Mamantov. People who tried to help them, I told them on many occasions they shouldn't do it.
Mr.Jenner. What do you mean?
Mr.Mamantov. Well, I told Mrs. Paine—Mrs. Paine was an interested person.
Mr.Jenner. Why?
Mr.Mamantov. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is strengthened due to the 22d assassination.
Mr.Jenner. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is, you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is arealization——
Mr.Mamantov. It is a realization of what the people told me of his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were asked before.
Mr.Jenner. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that respect?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local Republican Party.
Mr.Jenner. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of or has there come to your attention any information or statement attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say, prior to November 22?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; I understand—no, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his capacity as President of the United States?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning the President or any other name.
Mr.Jenner. And you have no information on which you personally can rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?
Mr.Mamantov. You mean if I have proof—physical proof?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. When did you meet George Bouhe?
Mr.Mamantov. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or earlypart of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to my house—he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number—3405, if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.
Mr.Jenner. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. Mrs. Meller—right.
Mr.Jenner. Is she a White Russian?
Mr.Mamantov. No; she is—she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came from—was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record a moment, please.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his political beliefs. What kind of person was he—was he quiet, retiring, avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?
Mr.Mamantov. I'll put it this way—the people who wanted to help Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back—I mean—people tried to start conversations, always he went into political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.
Mr.Mamantov. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been—for one reason or another he was disliked—I'll put it this way.
Mr.Jenner. All right—by the Russian emigre group as a whole?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, in that community of people—Mr. Mamantov?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. It was one of reservation, dislike—that they did not think well of his personality?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard—he tried to keep Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.
Mr.Jenner. He was holding back?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; once he beat up Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many instances.
Mr.Mamantov. Not from the one instance.
Mr.Jenner. But, not from one—one instance is hearsay to us.
Mr.Mamantov. Well—only, I know that he was undesirable—and after people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own houses, he was undesirable to those people.
Mr.Jenner. Was he regarded as a difficult person?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. I think you have said this, but may I ask you—your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Mamantov. I mean—she get the job through me.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; of course.
Mr.Mamantov. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to teach—and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students, and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several subdivisions—first, as to her personality.
Mr.Mamantov. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion was that she is very pleasant to be around.
Mr.Jenner. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian community for truth and veracity?
Mr.Mamantov. For whom?
Mr.Jenner. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, I see what you mean.
Mr.Jenner. A person upon whose statements one might rely?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't know—as a community. I do know in our family discussion.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I'll take that part of the community.
Mr.Mamantov. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way, but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her on the first-hand information.
Mr.Jenner. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now, that is a political question.
Mr.Mamantov. Now, she told mymother-in-law——
Mr.Jenner. Now, please, did she have a reputation?
Mr.Mamantov. Wait just asecond——
Mr.Jenner. A reputation, whether she was or was not—what did the Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?
Mr.Mamantov. All right—you want the Communist Party of the United States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?
Mr.Jenner. All right, I'll take both of them—I'll take the Communist Party of the Soviet Union first.
Mr.Mamantov. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic Youth Organization—she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did Oswald himself.
Mr.Jenner. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political views and might actively support those views here in the United States?
Mr.Mamantov. No; I don't know this—I mean—I don't have any opinion. I haven't heard anything—I know that she didn't—she avoided political discussions, I'll put it this way.
Mr.Jenner. She did?
Mr.Mamantov. She did avoid political discussions.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the Fords?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct. He is a bachelor now—he was married—he's divorced.
Mr.Jenner. He's a grass widower?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, but he was a very short time widower—he could be married.
Mr.Jenner. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the Oswalds?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware of that?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable impulse on his part?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You think it might have been ulterior?
Mr.Mamantov. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her husband beat her up.
Mr.Jenner. When there went through the Russian community a report that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?
Mr.Mamantov. I don't know—I think they were especially helping her, after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements. Supposedly, she was attacked by him—then the Russian community here in Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this more and more violently.
Mr.Jenner. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?
Mr.Mamantov. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. By collecting clothing?
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on occasions?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right—assigning for certain families to keep for a couple of weeks or a week.
Mr.Jenner. That included Mrs. Meller?
Mr.Mamantov. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get thisperson——
Mr.Jenner. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?
Mr.Mamantov. Mr. Bouhe.
Mr.Jenner. He tried to place her with whom—Mrs. Grolle?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her home.
Mr.Jenner. Well, we have no information that she did.
Mr.Mamantov. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or for 2 weeks.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr.Mamantov. Elena Hall—how do you spell it?
Mr.Jenner. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].
Mr.Mamantov. No; the first name—Elena Hall?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.
Mr.Jenner. No, that's a different person.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.
Mr.Jenner. You mean one is the father and one is son?
Mr.Mamantov. One is father's name and one is son's name—that's correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call your name—if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it appears.
Mr.Jenner. What do they say in case—since my name and my father's name are the same?
Mr.Mamantov. The same—it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.
Mr.Mamantov. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.
Mr.Jenner. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. Also a geologist.
Mr.Jenner. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].
Mr.Jenner. What was his first name?
Mr.Mamantov. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].
Mr.Jenner. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?
Mr.Mamantov. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.
Mr.Jenner. How old a man is he?
Mr.Mamantov. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.
Mr.Jenner. He is a young man?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; he came to—he served in the Army.
Mr.Jenner. Do you—the United States Army?
Mr.Mamantov. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of the Russian language already.
Mr.Jenner. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't that correct?
Mr.Mamantov. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of 1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private lessons for both of them.
Mr.Jenner. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr.Mamantov. They came—right now, they came to my house. Not before—the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and willingness to teach individual students, so we split—I was tutoring Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.
Mr.Jenner. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to you about the Oswalds one night?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit with us.
Mr.Jenner. Your home?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct, and this was, I would say, sometime—March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Was Fredricksen present?
Mr.Mamantov. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian. Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't speak Russian very much except with Marina. Shewas very shy and didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with Oswald on political questions, because he understood.
Mr.Jenner. This was the report they made to you?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. What are their names—do you remember a given name?
Mr.Mamantov. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the American occupation of Europe.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name—it isn't his original name.
Mr.Jenner. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?
Mr.Mamantov. It could be—he spelled it also with an "e", but that's originally his name.
Mr.Jenner. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?
Mr.Mamantov. Petroleum engineer—correct.
Mr.Jenner. Is he part Russian—part of the Russian emigre group here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Mr.Mamantov. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been with Gregorys on a few occasions—I have been with the Clarks on few occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in the past—whom else—the same I know them very well personally but we didn't meet—we don't meet as a group any more.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please state what you have in mind?
Mr.Mamantov. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other—but knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her arrangement—how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet Union, because if I liked to get—if I would have liked to take some of my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and here, a young lady—20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out and—but I don't want to accuse her—maybe she's completely innocent. I know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything else you want to add?
Mr.Mamantov. No, not on this particular case, I think that's everything.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had a short talk with you before we began this deposition.
Mr.Mamantov. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?
Mr.Mamantov. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.
Mr.Jenner. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?
Mr.Mamantov. No, I don't think it is.
Mr.Jenner. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to influence you in any statements you might have made?
Mr.Mamantov. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your deposition.
Mr.Mamantov. All right, sir.
Mr.Jenner. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov at this point.
The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter.
Mr.Belin. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Your name is Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where do you live?
Mrs.Gravitis. Today?
Mr.Belin. Now.
Mrs.Gravitis. Richardson, Tex., 2444 Fairway Circle (AD 5-2873).
Mr.Belin. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mrs.Gravitis. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Mrs. Gravitis, is your daughter married to Mr. Mamantov?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where were you born?
Mrs.Gravitis. Latvia.
Mr.Belin. May I ask approximately how old you are?
Mrs.Gravitis. Seventy-four years old.
Mr.Belin. Did you live in Latvia all your life before coming to America?
Mrs.Gravitis. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia.
I was educated in Russia, in Moscow.
I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of the city where I was teaching in Latvia.
Mr.Belin. Latvia became independent in 1918?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three Baltic countries around 1939, or so?
Mrs.Gravitis. 1940. In 1913, I got married.
Mr.Mamantov. Do you need a very detailed story on her life?
Mr.Belin. No.
Mrs.Gravitis[through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils, and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd at that time. This was in 1915.
Mr.Belin. Now it is Leningrad?
Mrs.Gravitis. Leningrad.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia from that time on until after—for how long?
Mrs.Gravitis. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and mydaughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't let him out.
Mr.Belin. From 1919 onward, where did you live?
Mrs.Gravitis. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a teacher in Latvia.
Mr.Belin. Where did you teach?
Mrs.Gravitis. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to junior high, and the Russian language.
Mr.Belin. Did you work for the State or for a private school?
Mrs.Gravitis. State school.
Mr.Belin. From 1940, where did you live and what did you do?
Mrs.Gravitis. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia.
Mr.Belin. Do you know the city?
Mrs.Gravitis. Zilupe, which is about half a mile from the Russian border.
Mr.Belin. How long did you stay there? From 1940 on?
Mrs.Gravitis. All the time.
Mr.Belin. Until when?
Mrs.Gravitis. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in Riga, which is the Latvian Capital.
Mr.Belin. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to Latvia with you?
Mrs.Gravitis. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923.
Mr.Belin. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia then, and what happened to him?
Mrs.Gravitis. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what ever became of him?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when.
Mr.Belin. When did you leave Latvia, and where did you go?
Mrs.Gravitis. 1944, I went to Germany.
Mr.Belin. You went with your daughter and son-in-law?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes; and two children.
Mr.Belin. And your two children?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Your two grandchildren?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where did you stay in Germany?
Mrs.Gravitis. In Bavaria.
Mr.Belin. In a camp?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg.
Mr.Belin. How long did you stay in the DP camp? Until when?
Mrs.Gravitis. Four years in—until October of 1949, when we went to Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States.
Mr.Mamantov. She left 2 weeks ahead of us because her name started with "G".
Mr.Belin. Where did you go in the United States when you got here? Where have you lived since you have come here?
Mrs.Gravitis. In New York City.
Mr.Belin. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived since then?
Mrs.Gravitis. Approximately 1½ or 2. However, we left New York February 28, 1952.
Mr.Belin. And you cameto——
Mrs.Gravitis. To Post, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Is that near Dallas?
Mrs.Gravitis. 325 miles west of Dallas.
Mr.Belin. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.?
Mrs.Gravitis. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post.
Mr.Belin. Where have you lived in Texas since then?
Mrs.Gravitis. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield.
Mr.Belin. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with your daughter and son-in-law?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin[to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have lived in Texas?
Mr.Mamantov. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe?
Mrs.Gravitis. Before we left Latvia, you mean?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mrs.Gravitis. I was a housewife also. No other profession.
Mr.Belin. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation?
Mrs.Gravitis. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr. Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the sidewalks.
I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual students.
Mr.Belin. This is generally what you have done then since coming to Texas, is private tutoring?
Mrs.Gravitis. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring on and off, because it is not enough students.
Mr.Belin. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs. Michael Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this.
Mr.Belin. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons cost?
Mrs.Gravitis. You mean how much I got paid?
Mr.Belin. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but I heard somewhere from $5 to $6.
Mr.Belin. That is at the Berlitz School?
Mrs.Gravitis. He paid me $2.50.
Mr.Belin. $2.50 for a private lesson?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; I received remuneration.
Mr.Belin. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. For how long a teaching session would this be?
Mrs.Gravitis. One hour.
Mr.Belin. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or would this be several people in the class?
Mrs.Gravitis. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had two, then I received $3.
Mr.Belin. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student?
Mrs.Gravitis. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was taking lessons before I came to that school.
Mr.Belin. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School. This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and Mrs. Paine dropped out of school.
Mr.Mamantov. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law would teach her at home.
Mr.Belin. At whose home?
Mrs.Gravitis. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per hour, private lesson.
Mr.Belin. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her?
Mrs.Gravitis. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons.
Mr.Belin. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. She was a good student, talented, serious.
Mr.Belin. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers, that you know of, in Russia?
Mrs.Gravitis. Pardon me?
Mr.Belin. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in Russia?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What do you know about this?
Mrs.Gravitis. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters—Mrs. Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes. Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of the city.
Mr.Belin. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian teacher?
Mrs.Gravitis. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question her any more.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; I don't.
Mr.Belin. Or was it a political youth organization?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion?
Mrs.Gravitis. Letters, you mean?
Mr.Belin. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher, or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political discussion involved?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. I started some time during the summer before Mrs. Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February, and then she discontinued taking lessons.
Mr.Belin. What period would this have been? What year?
Mrs.Gravitis. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years old, so we say 1961.
Mr.Belin. 1960, wouldn't it?
Mrs.Gravitis. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960.
Mr.Belin. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more Russian language lessons?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old.
Mr.Belin. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit taking lessons?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Gravitis. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs. Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party, that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and his wife is a Russian.
Mr.Belin. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Gravitis. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the English language and nobody could help her.
Mr.Belin. This was Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that time.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald, her husband?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Gravitis. Two.
Mr.Belin. When did the first conversation take place, and what was said?
Mrs.Gravitis. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the Paine's home.
Mr.Belin. This would have been when?
Mrs.Gravitis. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This was this past summer, 1963.
Mr.Belin. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from and where she lived before she came to this country?
Mrs.Gravitis. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in Leningrad, on Ligovka Street.
Mr.Belin. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad?
Mrs.Gravitis. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk, and together with her husband—excuse me it is just the reverse. She lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived on this street in Leningrad.
Mr.Belin. After she was married?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got married?
Mr.Mamantov. Would you mind if she started again?
Mr.Belin. Let's start at the beginning now.
Mrs.Gravitis. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad on this street, Ligovka Street.
Mr.Mamantov. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor part of Leningrad—I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow brought mother's memory back to Petrograd.
Mr.Belin. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she was married, or what her husband did?
Mrs.Gravitis. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist.
Mr.Belin. Did she say what her husband did in Russia?
Mrs.Gravitis. I didn't ask and she didn't say.
Mr.Belin. Did she say what her father did?
Mrs.Gravitis. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of Russia.
Mr.Belin. Did she have a stepfather?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Did she say why she came to the United States?
Mrs.Gravitis. She said her husband was returning home and she came with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck."
Mr.Belin. Did she say anything else about that?
Mrs.Gravitis. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason she lives at Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr.Belin. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to get out of Russia other than that she had luck?
Mrs.Gravitis. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of work is below his dignity.
Mr.Belin. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist?
Mr.Mamantov. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by the word Communist?
Mr.Belin. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just what she would call it.
Mrs.Gravitis. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said, "Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes."
Mr.Mamantov. She said, my husband—and this word, I don't know exactly how to translate it—I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I think in your investigation it is very important.
She replied that her husband is now—I could not translate just the individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word, which was developed fairly recently—that my husband is a person who believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement. Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of this word.
Mr.Belin. Can you spell the word?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes; ideinyi—which has political connotations, and it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist Party.
And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this third step is eventually for this particular work.
Mr.Belin. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct?
Mr.Mamantov. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean by most dangerous?
Mrs.Gravitis. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic people.
Mr.Belin. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this, who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that.
Mr.Belin. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the screening process that gets memberships, is that correct?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the members,are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become, they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the individual deed.
Mr.Belin. About what percent are members of the Communist Party?
Mr.Mamantov. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it is now?
Mr.Belin. Both.
Mrs.Gravitis. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are approximately 5 or more million people members.
Mr.Belin. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge?
Mr.Mamantov. She read. She said that she read recently also that there are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or members of the communistic youth organization.
Mrs.Gravitis. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get education. You cannot advance in your educational system.
Mr.Belin. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist?
Mrs.Gravitis. She said that when she got married she was expelled from the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol.
Mr.Belin. Did she say why she was expelled?
Mrs.Gravitis. Because she married an American. I understood that this was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free education or scholarship.
Mr.Belin. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this affect whether or not you get out of the country?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help.
Mr.Belin. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs.Gravitis. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to meet with the Russians any more.
Mr.Belin. Why not?
Mrs.Gravitis. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel that because she got tired of being questioned all the time.
Mr.Belin. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work here?
Mr.Mamantov. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However, mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and they didn't have an automobile.
Mr.Belin. Didn't have an automobile?
Mrs.Gravitis. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Did her husband know how to drive?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer. And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer.
Mr.Belin. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or had done in Russia and where he had gone?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so much. I didn't ask her any more questions.
Mr.Belin. Could he travel in Russia?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what?
Mrs.Gravitis. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she volunteeredto say that the room was better than the Russian people locally would have.
Mr.Belin. Why was this?
Mrs.Gravitis. Was because her husband was an American.
Mr.Belin. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was it because he was in this so-called third stage of the—of becoming a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. She didn't say anything?
Mrs.Gravitis. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion, if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia.
Mr.Belin. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go hunting?
Mrs.Gravitis. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting clubs over there.
Mr.Belin. You know of no such hunting clubs over there?
Mrs.Gravitis. Of course there are trappers, but either they are professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party. Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm.
Mr.Belin. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to a hunting club?
Mrs.Gravitis. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. When you say that the living accommodations were better because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were better? In what way would they be better than the average person there?
Mrs.Gravitis. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives, that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations.
Mr.Belin. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United States?
Mrs.Gravitis. She liked the United States and she also said that she was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom.
Mr.Belin. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church?
Mrs.Gravitis. In Russia or in the United States?
Mr.Belin. Here in the States.
Mrs.Gravitis. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her daughter.
Mr.Belin. And what church?
Mrs.Gravitis. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox.
Mr.Belin. Here in Dallas?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you had with her that she said about her husband?
Mrs.Gravitis. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very much. That is my personal interpretation.
Mr.Belin. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina Oswald said about her husband?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Gravitis. Two times.
Mr.Belin. Two more?
Mrs.Gravitis. Twice in total.
Mr.Belin. Two conversations in total?