I said, "Well, I don't know."
She said, "Well, I expect another baby."
I said, "Well," I said, "that's something." I said, "How is your husband doing?"
"Oh, he's in New Orleans. And I'm going to New Orleans, too."
And there was another lady with her.
Mr.Jenner. There was another lady? Would you describe the other lady, please?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, she was tall, black hair. She spoke Russian.
Mr.Jenner. What was her command of Russian?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Very—not too bad. But I was surprised at her. Because I thought she was English first—her type of face.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And she said, "Well, no. I'm American—and I went to the university and studied Russian—and I practice now with Marina."
I said, "Why Russian?" I said, "Well, in United States, if you need another language, you study Spanish or French or German. Why Russian?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. "Oh," she said, "I don't know, but I like very much the Russian language.
And I thought [gesturing with hands out, palms up]—I don't know.
And they sit down on the table and I give them some coffee. And she say that the lady was with her, she will drive her to New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. The lady who was accompanying Marina was going to drive Marina to New Orleans?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Right.
Mr.Jenner. What time of the year was this?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Years and dates, I'm just lost.
Mr.Jenner. Well, was it in the spring?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No, no, no. It was in summertime.
Mr.Jenner. It was in the summertime?
Mrs.Dymitruk. In summertime. Just before we close up the store. I think was in July, or maybe June. I'm not sure.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's the last time I saw her.
Mr.Jenner. That's the last time you saw Marina?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. And is that the last time you had even any indirect contact—people speaking of her—that is, prior to November 22—did you hear about her in between?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. Not at all?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. When you were assisting them with their child and went to their apartment, that apartment was here in Dallas, was it?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; I think it was in Oak Cliff.
Mr.Jenner. In Oak Cliff?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I think was in Oak Cliff.
Mr.Jenner. In your driving to the clinic that evening with Lee Oswald and Marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of his views with respect to Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It was just only about the hospitalization.
Mr.Jenner. Only the hospitalization?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you learn, during the course of those visits with Marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether he had been in Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I knew; yes.
Mr.Jenner. You knew that before—well, I'll ask you this: How did you know he had been to Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I knew from George Bouhe.
Mr.Jenner. From George Bouhe?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; he told me about it—uh—one person who went to Russia and then he come back with Russian wife and a baby—back to United States. "Well," I say, "that's one thing—that he learned something. To go to Russia and he didn't like it and then he come back. He was just lucky that he did come back to United States."
Mr.Jenner. He was fortunate that he could come back?
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. In your talks with Marina that morning, when you were taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her a good many hours?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh—let me see. It was maybe till 2 o'clock—2:30 maybe.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting Oswald in Russia? Did she tell you anything about her life or their lives in Russia and their life here in the United States? Did you girls have some smalltalk?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It was just about life in United States; not in Russia.
Mr.Jenner. Not in Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
She told me that her husband want to go back to Russia.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, she did?
Mrs.Dymitruk. "And I don't want to go," she say.
Mr.Jenner. Fine. Tell me about that. Was it, to the best of your recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to Russia, including himself and her?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Or was it that he wanted her to go back to Russia and he was going to stay here?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; he wanted to go with her.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And she said, "He can go if he want to, but I don't go—because I like here and I don't go."
Mr.Jenner. I see. But she did make a point of telling you about that?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this day when you were with them for a good many hours?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; with her.
Mr.Jenner. Yes—with her.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, I asked her if she like United States. She says, "United States, I do—but not everything"
I said, "What you mean—not everything?"
"Well, just the same problem—the hospitalization and the doctors."
I said to her that in United States we have, when you work with a company, you have insurance. You pay just a little every month and then if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's how I explain to her.
"Well, in Russia, when a baby is born in Russia—my baby was born in Russia, and they took care and when I come home from the hospital there was a nurse for 8 days in my room who took care of the baby—and why is it not in United States like this?"
I said to her, "Well, you just can't compare two countries—Russia and United States." I said, "I am longer here and I can explain so you will understand."
Mr.Jenner. And did you explain to her?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I explained about this hospitalization what we have here.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Dymitruk. "Well," she said, "it's still too expensive. If you have to go doctor, you pay the visit."
I said, "You can go to the hospital—to the Parkland Hospital and it cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything."
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. "If you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to doctor, then you pay $10 or $5 or something like that." I said, "Why, that's nothing."
"Well, I can't afford it."
I said, "Well, that's why I'm taking you to hospital—to Parkland Hospital—to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything."
That was the only—what she complained about.
Mr.Jenner. But otherwise she thought well of the United States?
Mrs.Dymitruk. She liked it.
Mr.Jenner. She wanted to stay?
Mrs.Dymitruk. She want to stay; yes.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, she did not want to go back to Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. But she told you that her husband did want to return to Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With her?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember specifically now?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; I remember. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to go back with her?
Mrs.Dymitruk. With her. And she said, "I don't want to go. If he want to go, he can go by himself. I stay here."
Mr.Jenner. Now, did she say anything, during the course of this time you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the United States?
Mrs.Dymitruk. She told me that he was unhappy and that he was very disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in Russia and the people find out that he was in Russia, so he's on the street.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And that's why he was always so upset.
Mr.Jenner. I see. All right.
Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would like to call my attention and, through me, the Commission, that you think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important investigation?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone American who goes from United States to Russia, let them there. Don't bring them back. That's the only thing that I can say. It's no reason to leave United States and change your nationality or something. Because I have experience myself. I lived in Russia for 15 years and, in my childhood, I knew too much about the life in Russia. And I can't see any reason that American want to go to Russia and to accept Russian life—I mean the Communists. I can't see that.
Mr.Jenner. You have a personal aversion to communism?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And it's your viewpoint that if any American goes to Russia with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there?
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And not encourage him to return to the United States?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Not encourage—or if he ask to come back, just let him stay there.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh. All right.
Anything else?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Let's see—Uh—one thing that I'm just always wonder about Marina and her husband—that she knew—if she knew that her husband tried to kill General Walker. I think she was responsible, in that case, to tell the Government or somebody in Government that her husband tried to do this.
Mr.Jenner. It's your viewpointabout——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. That she should have disclosed that?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir. Husband or no husband, I would feel that I should.
Mr.Jenner. Your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a husband, or whomever it might havebeen——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Right.
Mr.Jenner. That was involved in such an incident, that it should have been disclosed to the police or the Government?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, you ask questions. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. I can't think of anything at the moment.
Now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter hasn't been transcribing. Is there anything that occurred during the course of any off-the-record discussion that I haven't brought out in questioning you that you think is pertinent here?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Nothing.
Mr.Jenner. Everything that's pertinent I have questioned you about?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As far as you know?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine young lady will have it some time next week. You may read it if you desire, or not—as you see fit. And some people like to read it over and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. That's optional. You may or may not as you see fit. And you have a right to do this if you want. You also may waive it.
Mrs.Dymitruk. I think that's all right.
Mr.Jenner. You would prefer to waive it?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I think that's all right. What I say is truth.
Mr.Jenner. Well, all right.
Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming voluntarily. It's certainly an inconvenience, I know, but you've been very helpful.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Thank you.
The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m. on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Taylor, will you stand and be sworn please?
In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Taylor. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently—I guess it was last week—a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Presidential AssassinationCommission——
Mr.Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Asking if you would appear for the taking of your deposition?
Mr.Taylor. That's true.
Mr.Jenner. And was there included with that letter a copy of the Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130 of November 29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and directs that it prescribe itsprocedures——
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the creation of the Commission?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; there was.
Mr.Jenner. Pursuant to that Executive Order and the Senate joint resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it.
We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might be helpful.
I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions here in Dallas and conduct the examination.
And you appear here voluntarily?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, your full name is Gary—[spelling] G-a-r-y E. Taylor?
Mr.Taylor. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. What's your middle name?
Mr.Taylor. Edward.
Mr.Jenner. And you live in Fort Worth—is that correct, sir?
Mr.Taylor. No; I live in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Dallas? And your address in Dallas?
Mr.Taylor. 3948 Orlando Court, apartment 111.
Mr.Jenner. Are you a married man?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Family?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How many children?
Mr.Taylor. One.
Mr.Jenner. And what is your age?
Mr.Taylor. Twenty-three.
Mr.Jenner. You are an American citizen?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Born here?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your wife is an American citizen?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Born here?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your children born here?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Are you a native of this area of the country?
Mr.Taylor. I am a native of Wichita, Kans. I've been in Dallas since 1951.
Mr.Jenner. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring you to Dallas?
Mr.Taylor. No; I moved here with my parents.
Mr.Jenner. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your business or occupation or profession?
Mr.Taylor. I'm a recording engineer for the Sellers Co.
Mr.Jenner. And what is the Sellers Co?
Mr.Taylor. A recording company whose primary function is the recording of radio and television commercials.
Mr.Jenner. And how long have you been in that business?
Mr.Taylor. I went to work for them in September.
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mr.Taylor. Prior to that, I was in the Motion Picture Industry. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your occupations back through, let us say, 1961.
Mr.Taylor. Uh—prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time jobs and attended college at Arlington State.
Mr.Jenner. Are you a graduate of Arlington State?
Mr.Taylor. No; I'm not. I'm a 3-year student.
Mr.Jenner. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3 years at Arlington State?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Are you attending there at night—is that a night school?
Mr.Taylor. They hold night classes. I'm not attending.
Mr.Jenner. During the time you had your interest, which you still may have, in—what did you say—photographing?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was the nature of that?
Mr.Taylor. Oh—it was motion picture work primarily centered around television commercials.
Mr.Jenner. Are you an amateur camera fan?
Mr.Taylor. Just a little bit. I try to carry it on as best I can.
Mr.Jenner. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which of the two did you meet first?
Mr.Taylor. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same day in their home.
Mr.Jenner. On the same occasion?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had any information about them prior to the time you met them?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I had.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when was it you met them?
Mr.Taylor. I believe it was in September 1962.
Mr.Jenner. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or was it a purposeful meeting?
Mr.Jenner. It was prearranged.
Mr.Jenner. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a moment, if we can defer that for a bit.
Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now indicated?
Mr.Taylor. All right.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, how did it come about—from the beginning of the world to the present?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—about a week before I met them, uh—my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name—given name?
Mr.Taylor. It is pronounced Zhon [phonetic].
Mr.Jenner. Pronounced as though it's spelled J-o-n?
Mr.Taylor. Yes—uh—it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it—Zhon. I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm not familiar with it.
Mr.Jenner. Is she sometimes called Jeanne [spelling] J-e-a-n-n-e?
Mr.Taylor. Yes. I'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it.
Mr.Jenner. I'd like to back up a moment. Your wife—what was her maiden name?
Mr.Taylor. AlexandraRomyne——
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] R-o-m-i-n-e?
Mr.Taylor. [Spelling] R-o-m-y-n-e.
Mr.Jenner. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And she was the daughter of whom?
Mr.Taylor. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as Mrs. J. M. Brandel.
Mr.Jenner. Spell that last name.
Mr.Taylor. [Spelling] B-r-a-n-d-e-l.
Mr.Jenner. And the present Mrs. Brandel—she was the wife of George De Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife?
Mr.Taylor. That is true. But that is not the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. No. I appreciate that. Where does she live now?
Mr.Taylor. Mrs. Brandel, as last I knew, was living at Stellara B.
Mr.Jenner. Will you spell that?
Mr.Taylor. [Spelling] S-t-e-l-l-a-r-a B.
Mr.Jenner. Just the letter B?
Mr.Taylor. Just the letter B. I believe Stellara means apartment in Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy.
Mr.Jenner. Has she remarried?
Mr.Taylor. Yes, she has remarried—and her name is Brandel.
Mr.Jenner. How many children were born of that marriage?
Mr.Taylor. One.
Mr.Jenner. Just your wife?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Taylor. The first wife—to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs. Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also was married to at least one, if not two other women?
Mr.Taylor. Yes, I am aware of one other one.
Mr.Jenner. Will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind?
Mr.Taylor. I know very little about her, other than that her name is Dee—her first name is Dee.
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] D-e-e?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Dee or DeeDee? Is she sometimes called DeeDee?
Mr.Taylor. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of which is deceased.
Mr.Jenner. And the one who still survives is male or female?
Mr.Taylor. Female.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know her name and whereabouts?
Mr.Taylor. Her given name is Nodjia—and I do not know the spelling of it. It is, I believe, a Russian name.
Mr.Jenner. Could you spell it phonetically?
Mr.Taylor. [Spelling] N-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic).
Mr.Jenner. Is she married?
Mr.Taylor. No. She's a minor.
Mr.Jenner. She's still a minor?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where does she live?
Mr.Taylor. I believe in Philadelphia—but I can't be sure of that.
Mr.Jenner. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her mother in Philadelphia?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Rather than with the De Mohrenschildts in Port-au-Prince, Haiti?
Mr.Taylor. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in Port-au-Prince, Haiti?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
(Off the record discussion follows.)
Mr.Jenner. In order that the record be not too confused, I think it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper perspective.
Mr.Taylor. All right.
Mr.Jenner. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we, Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. We will bring that out later.
(At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.)
YourReporter. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother—Mr. and Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt."
Mr.Jenner. Now, that's where I interrupted. Please go on from there.
Mr.Taylor. They explained to usthat——
Mr.Jenner. When you say "they," you mean whom?
Mr.Taylor. One or the other of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. Explained to mywife——
Mr.Jenner. In your presence?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. This is something your wife told you?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth with her husband, and that they were going to be—the De Mohrenschildts were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when was this?
Mr.Taylor. In early September of 1962.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Go on.
Mr.Taylor.We——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an American being back here with a Russian wife—or was this entirely new to you?
Mr.Taylor. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of either one of them prior to this.
Mr.Jenner. And, as far as you know, was it new to your wife?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the record,the wife you now speak of—that is, back in 1962—that is not your present wife?
Mr.Taylor. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. But that wife—what was her maiden name?
Mr.Taylor. Alexandra Romyne De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one Sunday afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "them," youmean——
Mr.Taylor. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds andalso——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over there?
Mr.Taylor. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived.
Mr.Jenner. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law and mother-in-law present?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; they were.
Mr.Jenner. And where was this?
Mr.Taylor. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number.
Mr.Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Taylor. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the number?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; it was a house.
Mr.Jenner. It was a house—not an apartment?
Mr.Taylor. It was a house.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex?
Mr.Taylor. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a duplex.
Mr.Jenner. You have no present recollection which one it was?
Mr.Taylor. No, sir; I do not.
Mr.Jenner. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare or new furniture—or what did it look like inside?
Mr.Taylor. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember, uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however, clean—particularly so considering the number of people that were there.
Mr.Jenner. And it was orderly—not messy?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. I believe she was.
Mr.Jenner. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife—anybody else present?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother was there.
Mr.Jenner. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was there—John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her name—first name.
Mr.Jenner. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a Hall?
Mr.Taylor. Elena.
Mr.Jenner. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the time that you stepped into this room?
Mr.Taylor. Only the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance with Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And what ensued—by way of what anybody did and what anybody said?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what preceded—I mean, Mrs.Oswald——
Mr.Jenner. Will you please state them and where you are stating a question in your mind as distinct from something that wassaid——
Mr.Taylor. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left shortly after I arrived.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you mean Marguerite?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; Lee's mother.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit?
Mr.Taylor. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that one afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. And you've had no contact with her directly since this particular occasion you are now relating?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And the news media to which you refer is news media activities subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr.Taylor. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. She was just there for about 5 minutes?
Mr.Taylor. Less than 45 minutes, I would say.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in those few minutes?
Mr.Taylor. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman who seemed to be—uh—out of place in the present crowd that was there that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in anything that went on—and I think that's what prompted her to leave.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and Marguerite?
Mr.Taylor. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them; that they had very little communication between them; that they were almost strangers—and possibly even didn't like each other. Particularly on Lee's part, I should think.
Mr.Jenner. That was your impression?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And this was, again, September of 1962—did you say?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. September 1962. Okay—I've got myself oriented. Go ahead.
Mr.Taylor. And that we talked generally about some of the things that—uh—some of Lee's observations about Russia.
Mr.Jenner. Did he speak in English or Russian?
Mr.Taylor. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or I; and quite often in Russian—as I believe everyone in the room spoke Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John Hall spoke Russian or not—but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts, and George Bouhe does.
Mr.Jenner. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts—your mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds—Lee and Marina?
Mr.Taylor. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall.
Mr.Jenner. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian?
Mr.Taylor. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words.
Mr.Jenner. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and pick up?
Mr.Taylor. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it.
Mr.Jenner. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and observations about Russia.Would you continue from that point, indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's experiences in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I—uh—told you all I can remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather than—because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that day.
Mr.Jenner. All right. So we can get one point in the record—I'll probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on. But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to make.
Mr.Taylor. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his observations of family life there.
He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this approximate size regardless of the size of the families—that there were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration for his work 45 rubles a month—which was the minimum, he said, that everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not.
He went into some detail about what is received directly from the State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen receives in what we would call socialized services—such as medicine. A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the house—apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in that. And we discussed their school system somewhat—how a student that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to a level of which they are capable and then put to work.
And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that salaries—once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as you continue through the years on a skilled job.
Mr.Jenner. As your skills increase?
Mr.Taylor. No; at the same job.
Mr.Davis. As your age increases?
Mr.Taylor. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, he gets a raise over and above that.
Mr.Jenner. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of time and has no relation to skill?
Mr.Taylor. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about—take the example he gave—machine operator—if the machine operator next to Oswald, for example—take a hypothetical person—is much more skillful then Oswald, is the compensation the same?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—to my knowledge, it would be.
Mr.Jenner. That's the impression you received?
Mr.Taylor. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age—I don't remember what that was—would be receiving something just under 200 rubles a month for performing the same task.
Mr.Jenner. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the ruble and the dollar—to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American money?
Mr.Taylor. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out of his 45 rubles a monththat he had to buy little other than food and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual.
Mr.Jenner. Liberally? Or just enough to get along?
Mr.Taylor. Just enough to get going on—in both cases. And that his impression—the impression he left with me was that a person needed little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these things were held by the State so that—uh—to get the families out of these cramped quarters, that everything—and constant entertainment in some form—athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of stage presentations—were held nightly away from the home, so that the families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this.
Mr.Jenner. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective in mind—of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events?
Mr.Taylor. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average Russian citizen—which is nonexistent. A personthat——
Mr.Jenner. Now, you are telling us things he said to you?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you.
Mr.Jenner. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or speculating from things you have read in works published with respect to life in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember any specific comments that he made about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and that—uh—I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, you didn't raise the question?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina worked as well as he?
Mr.Taylor. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married or not.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that wives worked?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; he mentioned that most wives—most women do work. He didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember much being said about it other than that most women do work—or, I should say, they are encouraged to work.
Mr.Jenner. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on his reaction toward this life in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. He—uh—oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words, to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this privilege as we enjoy it.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities on his part that were different from—that is, that were accorded him—that were different from those accorded Russian people or foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work comparable to his? This is, was he treated oraccorded benefits different from or in addition to those which would normally have been accorded him?
Mr.Taylor. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians put him into—in other words, the environment they put him into—- was less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I know.
Mr.Taylor. It was never—we never discussed this. But I always felt like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to do.
Mr.Jenner. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted?
Mr.Taylor. I think that's true. He didn't—uh—I think he expected, as a former American, to be treated as something special—as though he were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him.
Mr.Jenner. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what he actually received—did he say that to you? Was it more than just an impression on your part?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—he never said that. It's only an impression.
Mr.Jenner. Is it a distinct impressionor——
Mr.Taylor. Yes. It's a very distinct impression.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Taylor. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.
Mr.Jenner. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score—thathe——
Mr.Taylor. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached the subject.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to what he told you of his life in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his part—that is, activity of his distinct from Marina—such as, for example, going hunting?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever discussed by him with you?
Mr.Taylor. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed.
Mr.Jenner. The subject of firearms was never discussed?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I believe he said that—uh—he did have difficulties and that it took him—uh—about a year to get permission to come to this—return to this country with his wife.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort prior to his marriage—had commenced it prior to the time he had married Marina?
Mr.Taylor. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and himself?
Mr.Taylor. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you with respect to the subject of his life in Russia?
Mr.Taylor. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States?
Mr.Taylor. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in Russia and—uh—the place that he had been given in it.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection—any desire on her part to come to the United States?
Mr.Taylor. No; there was never—uh—any discussion as to her feelings about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that they were important to him.
Mr.Jenner. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not with you directly?
Mr.Taylor. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss directly with you, their route back to the United States?
Mr.Taylor. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the money to return.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished now from what was accorded him which you have related—more in the area of the political area—the Communist system, as such, the political philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or government?
Mr.Taylor. Well, everything that we discussed, of course—and the things I have related—illustrate the distinction between the two political governments—such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat better than the average citizen lived.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian Government?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his political philosophy?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—I would say that at the point in his life which I knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been—and perhaps still was—a partisan of a Communist form of government, but, as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all.
Mr.Jenner. All right. What else was discussed on this—was it a Sunday afternoon?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job—which I believe he had just left the Friday before. He was—he terminated his employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from it—and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to stay in my home.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mr.Taylor. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Leesaid——
Mr.Jenner. In the event he went to Dallas?
Mr.Taylor. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday evening forward.
Mr.Jenner. Why?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—during their move. Just to give her a place to live until he was able to find a job here in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee became established elsewhere?
Mr.Taylor. That's right. In Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then atmosphere?
Mr.Taylor. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any marital disharmony.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time?
Mr.Taylor. As of that time, it appeared to be normal—normal man and wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point.
Mr.Jenner. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion?
Mr.Taylor. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about Russia and how people live there.
Mr.Jenner. All right. How long did this meeting take place?
Mr.Taylor. Uh—I believe from about 4 until 7.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time?
Mr.Taylor. No.
Mr.Jenner. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in their lives?