Mr.Jenner. And what was the occasion again to—why you had the typewriter repaired as of that time?
Mrs.Paine. The original key was incorrect—I had it replaced.
Mr.Jenner. Incorrect in what sense—it had an incorrect Russian symbol—Russian language symbol?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And you wanted to replace it for what reason—did Lee Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the circumstances?
Mrs.Paine. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching Russian to one student.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything else about that incident that you would like to add to the record.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at the moment.
Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have been heretofore advised?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. There is nothing?
Mrs.Paine. This is rather an aside, I would think.
Mr.Jenner. All right, let's go off the record a minute.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. We go back on the record.
In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash as distinguished from check or money orders?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service as cash. After—about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account.
Mr.Jenner. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance of delivering those checks—"yes" or "no"?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right, tell us the circumstances?
Mrs.Paine. I asked JohnThorne——
Mr.Jenner. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face?
Mrs.Paine. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was signing, and by this I meant—endorsing her own checks and his reply to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a check written by me to her.
Mr.Jenner. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin?
Mrs.Paine. It does look as if I had left it—let's see—given to the hand of John Thorne.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of that page, are you not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter which appears on that page?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, accompanying it was a check?
Mrs.Paine. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope.
Mr.Jenner. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A.
(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it?
Mrs.Paine. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mrs.Paine. I am not.
Mr.Jenner. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature?
Mrs.Paine. I am.
Mr.Jenner. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit 277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature?
Mrs.Paine. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand.
Mr.Jenner. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of remitting cash gifts by check?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, I did.
Mr.Jenner. And you have now handed me another instrument which purports to be and which is a check.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, it is.
Mr.Jenner. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B, for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature appears as the maker of each of those checks?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it does.
Mr.Jenner. And you recall distinctly that you did make them?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is there an endorsement on the reverse side?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; there is.
Mr.Jenner. And do you recognize that endorsement?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. Is it in longhand?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. In whose hand?
Mrs.Paine. That is in Marina Oswald's hand.
Mr.Jenner. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement "For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right?
Mrs.Paine. That's right—that should be said.
Mr.Jenner. And are these instruments now in the same condition when they were returned to you, by your bank?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; they are.
Mr.Jenner. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December 28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.
(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A and 277-B.)
Mr.Jenner. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to return them all to you at once.
Mrs.Paine. All right.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else, now, that occurs to you?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be helpful to the Commission in this investigation?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. We have been on and off the record during the course of this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the record by Mr. Howlett or by me?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19½ feet south of the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much smaller, and is about—not quite a foot thick.
The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground.
Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
AgentHowlett. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the ground.
Mr.Jenner. I see—I recited it 3 inches and that was in error.
AgentHowlett. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have testified this evening?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated it would you read the translation into the record?
Mrs.Paine. The translation says:
"Dear Ruth:Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you did for me.Sincerely,Marina.P.S.—Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little June. I kiss you, Marina."
"Dear Ruth:
Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you did for me.
Sincerely,
Marina.
Marina.
Marina.
P.S.—Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little June. I kiss you, Marina."
Mr.Jenner. Thank you, Mrs. Paine.
Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. Whose writing is it?
Mrs.Paine. It is Marina Oswald's writing.
Mr.Jenner. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. Whose is that?
Mrs.Paine. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr.Jenner. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope itself—everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And this is as you testified—she was able to write English to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the envelope?
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was except for the reporter's identification, when you received it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was so enclosed.
Mr.Jenner. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you?
Mrs.Paine. That is fine.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been identified this evening.
Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to add, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. I can think of nothing else at this point.
Mr.Jenner. I do want to ask you this—while you were translating the Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured—we went out in your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west your yard in the rear a clothesline.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And I measured that as being located at 19½ feet south of the back porch—of the back fence?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in connection with events that day?
Mrs.Paine. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I told her.
Mr.Jenner. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the same position now as those posts were on that day?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; they are.
Mr.Jenner. And on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the School Book Depository.She recalled that to me in the evening and told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the Commission hearings—I have recalled it since.
Mr.Jenner. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49—is that an affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city police?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, it is.
Mr.Jenner. And is that the statement to which you had reference in your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of November 22?
Mrs.Paine. The 22d, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the interview of the Dallas city police with you?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was it—I was under a good deal of stress at the time.
"AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACTThe State of TexasCounty of DallasBefore Me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband, Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband. Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted. Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when he left for work.(S)Ruth Hyde Paine."
"AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
The State of TexasCounty of Dallas
Before Me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband, Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband. Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted. Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when he left for work.
(S)Ruth Hyde Paine."
(S)Ruth Hyde Paine."
(S)Ruth Hyde Paine."
Mr.Jenner. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar with her signature?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, I am.
Mr.Jenner. Is that her signature?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, that is her signature.
Mr.Jenner. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not already testified.
Mrs.Paine. (Read instrument referred to.)
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the Dallas City Police Station?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. Were you present when she was examined?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I was.
Mr.Jenner. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page 46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what was said, is it accurate?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. This is what I particularly remember.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto?
Mrs.Paine. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here.
Mr.Jenner. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."
Mrs.Paine. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already that her husband had one.
Mr.Jenner. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall—that was all done by the police.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred to you—however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we thought we might ask you before we close.
Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the contents of that drawer?
Mrs.Paine. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents of that drawer.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I think I am finished—is there anything you wish to add?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at 7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this sometimes gruesome work.
Mrs.Paine. Well, I am glad to help.
Mr.Jenner. And you have been very helpful. Thank you.
Mrs.Paine. Thank you.
Mr.Jenner. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your testimony of last week as well.
Mrs.Paine. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could then sign this deposition.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you on Saturday of last week.
Mrs.Paine. All right. Thank you.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you again, and that is all.
The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Paine. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. We have asked you to come here so we can take your deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of 1963, up to the time of the assassination.
We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in Texas.
I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but before I do that, will you state your name for the record.
Mr.Paine. Michael Paine.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr.Paine. 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. By whom are you employed?
Mr.Paine. Bell Helicopter.
Mr.Liebeler. Where are they located?
Mr.Paine. Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which that occurred?
Mr.Paine. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr.Paine. I think it was in April.
Mr.Liebeler. Of 1963?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has kept a calendar.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?
Mr.Paine. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time?
Mr.Paine. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were represented as he having been an American who had defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet him at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr.Paine. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from my wife but I think that was in February.
Mr.Liebeler. 1963?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you met him?
Mr.Paine. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the second meeting with Oswald?
Mr.Paine. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her visit on the east coast,stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, and I guess Lee came out.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you there when he came out?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper.
So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his voice on the telephone.
Mr.Liebeler. You and your wife were separated at that time?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us approximately when you were first separated?
Mr.Paine. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose.
Mr.Liebeler. At that time, you mean in October?
Mr.Paine. It had been a year; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So it would have been in October of 1962?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I guess it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you living in Grand Prairie?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How often would you visit your wife during the period that you were separated particularly during the period of September-October?
Mr.Paine. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr.Liebeler. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight or did you justcome——
Mr.Paine. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening.
Mr.Liebeler. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of 1963?
Mr.Paine. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent a couple of months, the end of July, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving?
Mr.Paine. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or the date she arrived at Irving.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also brought Oswald's personal and household effects?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to take out.
Mr.Liebeler. That was shortly after she returned from her trip?
Mr.Paine. That would suggest either the same day or the next day.
Mr.Liebeler.Now——
Mr.Paine. Go ahead.
Mr.Liebeler. Go ahead.
Mr.Paine. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the date they came back.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any reason?
Mr.Paine. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things there, and the tools were there.
Mr.Liebeler. And you used the tools from time to time?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?
Mr.Paine. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the floor, and there was a—I was a little ashamed because I didn't know what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.
I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45° angle. I can draw you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of what you visualized to be in the package?
Mr.Paine. Also this was—I visualized after I put the package down. I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something—this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it.
Mr.Liebeler. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.
Mr.Paine. I was trying to put these in the package to make something that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual package as I visualized it—that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package.
Mr.Liebeler. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of as an iron pipe of some sort.
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask him to mark this as Exhibit 1.
(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".)
Mr.Liebeler. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid piece or just what was your feeling?
Mr.Paine. I didn't think. It remained in the package—nothing jelled. I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it rattle at all when you moved it?
Mr.Paine. No; it didn't rattle.
Mr.Liebeler.Now——
Mr.Paine. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was too symmetrical.
Mr.Liebeler. What was too symmetrical?
Mr.Paine. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow.
Mr.Liebeler. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?
Mr.Paine. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.
I never—I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my thinking.
Mr.Liebeler. How long would you estimate the package to be?
Mr.Paine. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.
Mr.Paine. I guess about that. That is including the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. The witness has indicated a length of 37½ inches.
Mr.Paine. You had two twelves. All right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that?
Mr.Paine. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it wrapped tightly?
Mr.Paine. Pretty snug.
Mr.Liebeler. When you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it?
Mr.Paine. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. Nothing crinkled, no sound.
Mr.Liebeler. And you moved it several times?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Paine. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.
Mr.Liebeler. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package?
Mr.Paine. I suppose it was the—I had a .22 when I was a kid.
Mr.Liebeler. A .22 caliber rifle?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the ground.
I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picturethat I drew, I didn't sense that there being another pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around it.
Mr.Liebeler. You never placed anotherpipe——
Mr.Paine. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.
Mr.Liebeler. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the package.
Mr.Paine. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.
Mr.Liebeler. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was more than one pipe inside.
Mr.Paine. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move one part with respect to another.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it tied tightly?
Mr.Paine. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes trying to hold still in the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. How wide was the package?
Mr.Paine. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something, I think that would go around the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you want to draw something additional here?
Mr.Paine. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was not as wide?
Mr.Paine. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was folded over.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded over at the other end opposite from "A"?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different thoughts at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first drawing that you made on No. 1?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.
Mr.Liebeler. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end "B" and drawing in another line.
Mr.Paine. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, between 7 and 8 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. Mark that "C".
Mr.Paine. All right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about?
Mr.Paine. [Marking.]
Mr.Liebeler. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, the length and the height.
Mr.Paine. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went actually through my fingers and thumb.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your hand actually close around it?
Mr.Paine. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is the thumb.
Mr.Liebeler. The witness hassketched——
Mr.Paine. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. Witness has drawn at the end marked "B" his hand indicatinghow he picked it up and said that at that end it was about 2 inches thick, including the blanket.
When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was just a fold of the blanket at that end?
Mr.Paine. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it—I can't recall exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the strings were and I thought the fold in the blanket came up along here somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over.
Mr.Liebeler. In other words, your testimony is that at end "B"?
Mr.Paine. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the time so I was thinking about that.
I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. Now I didn't remember that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well wrapped up.
Mr.Liebeler. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on our drawing.
Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark "D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us?
Mr.Paine. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn.
What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package?
Mr.Paine. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this pipe here shown didn't—the package. I must draw another package then. The package must have sloped.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, do you remember how it was?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a blanket, I mean it was a—reconstruct the blanket or something but this is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't think of it all at one time, you know. I just had these individual separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my mind into this package.
Mr.Liebeler. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should have gone right to the end of the blanket?
Mr.Paine. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the edge of the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me show youa——
Mr.Paine. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside of it, I didn't particularly arrange it.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw in the garage?
Mr.Paine. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is the mood of the colors there.
I think I would have—I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in thegarage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, do anything you want to with it.
Mr.Paine. I would guess that—it looks a little, in here it looks cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks—the light isn't very good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this absolutely.
It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good candidate for, my memory of the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you would have them on when you were working in there?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You said at one point you stored the blanket under your saw?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You had lights near your saw, didn't you?
Mr.Paine. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that shines on the table.
Mr.Liebeler. There is no light directly over the saw?
Mr.Paine. No; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of the room.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine the colors of the blanket?
Mr.Paine. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the impression I had of the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. And those blue spots would have been a part of the pattern of the blanket?
Mr.Paine. Yes; sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket, Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal privacy, so I don't investigate something.
Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. I remember that feeling.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like the blanket?
Mr.Paine. Yes; that is agood——
Mr.Liebeler. It is similar?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with brown thread, is it not?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Around some of the edges at any rate?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket that was in the garage?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as the next exhibit on this deposition.
(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)
Mr.Liebeler. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which hasbeen marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you saw it in the garage, if you remember?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually remember whether it was or not.
Mr.Liebeler. It appears to be similar?
Mr.Paine. That is about as good as could come to my memory.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket?
Mr.Paine. No; I think it was wrapped at both ends.
Mr.Liebeler. With two strings?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you notice that pin?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think I do.
Mr.Liebeler. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference table, and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your garage?
Mr.Paine. It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as thewhole——
Mr.Redlich. By "this end" what do you mean?
Mr.Paine. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had wrapped it and pulled the blanket over.
Mr.Liebeler. You are having difficulty in making it as small as when you remember it in the garage?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. We want you just to continue to work with it and take your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other.
Mr.Paine. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too thick to do it that way.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be similar to the one you saw in your garage?
Mr.Paine. I should say this end was a little bit too big here and it is not quite big enough here.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say this end, you are referring to the end marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt end of the rifle, isn't that right?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that end is too thick.
Mr.Paine. As I have it wrapped.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package?
Mr.Paine. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same thickness, calling the width from type—calling the rifle and the scope of the rifle the width.
Mr.Liebeler. The width?
Mr.Paine. The width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of the package and not quite so—I would have to wrap it in some manner to move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much that I can't grab that feel of pipe.
That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been two pipes there.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the "A" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you remember the package in your garage or the same width?
Mr.Paine. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt end of the rifle.
Mr.Liebeler. The "B" end?
Mr.Paine. As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full.
Mr.Liebeler. And you think that appears to bethicker——
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Than the package that was in your garage?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is what, not as thick nor not as wide?
Mr.Paine. Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller.