Mrs.Gravitis. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963?
Mrs.Gravitis. That's right.
Mr.Belin. When was the second one?
Mrs.Gravitis. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio.
Mr.Belin. This would be, say, June of 1963?
Mrs.Gravitis. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans.
Mr.Belin. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine about the Oswalds?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say?
Mrs.Gravitis. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New Orleans.
Mr.Belin. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet Marina Oswald or her husband?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring Marina to our house.
Mr.Belin. What did you say to that?
Mrs.Gravitis. She can bring Marina, but not her husband.
Mr.Belin. Why didn't you want her husband?
Mrs.Gravitis. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some information on us and notifying their own people.
Mr.Belin. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person?
Mrs.Gravitis. Oswald—the people who are in this particular stage trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear.
Mr.Belin. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be trying to spy, or what have you?
Mrs.Gravitis. If I saidto——
Mr.Belin. To Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be more careful.
Mr.Belin. What did Mrs. Paine say to that?
Mrs.Gravitis. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and very generous.
Mr.Belin. Are you a citizen, Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs.Gravitis. Yes; we received a letter from Washington, of course.
Mr.Belin. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been asked to come here?
Mrs.Gravitis. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered, if you interpret it that way.
Mr.Belin. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way?
Mrs.Gravitis. You mean personal opinion?
Mr.Belin. Go ahead.
Mrs.Gravitis. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald—I did not know her last name, she always called her Marina and Lee—so Mrs. Paine told me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why. She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back to the Soviet Union." I said thatthis isn't true. I was surprised, and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true, that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere.
She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help, had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work, and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to people who don't have money.
Mr.Belin. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should be noted here, that we should discuss?
Mrs.Gravitis. Maybe, but I don't remember right now.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else that you care to add?
Mrs.Gravitis. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he even hit her, Marina.
Mr.Belin. When did Mrs. Paine tell you this?
Mrs.Gravitis. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would reprimand his wife."
Mr.Belin. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife, or was this something different that happened when they came to New Orleans?
Mrs.Gravitis. Marina did not tell me.
Mr.Belin. I mean Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Gravitis. I didn't ask and she didn't say.
Mr.Belin. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be helpful here?
Mrs.Gravitis. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean she didn't tell Marina?
Mrs.Gravitis. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Belin. Why do you feel that Mexico was very important?
Mrs.Gravitis. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else.
Mr.Belin. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon which to base it?
Mrs.Gravitis. No; this is my personal feeling.
Mr.Belin. Any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here?
Mrs.Gravitis. I would help you more, but I don't have enough acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her husband came home after the President was assassinated.
Mr.Belin. Why did he come home, do you know?
Mrs.Gravitis. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it easier on her after that particular time.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?
Mrs.Gravitis. No.
Mr.Belin. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here, Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help.
Mrs.Gravitis. Thank you; Mr. Belin.
Mr.Belin. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the depositionand sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and let it go directly to Washington?
Mr.Mamantov. She trusts you without signing.
Mr.Belin. So you waive the signing?
Mr.Mamantov. Yes.
The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Gregory. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony. I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962.
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr.Gregory. Paul Roderick Gregory.
Mr.Liebeler. You are presently a student of the University of Oklahoma; isn't that right?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma?
Mr.Gregory. Russian language and literature.
Mr.Liebeler. What year are you in at the University?
Mr.Gregory. First year graduate student.
Mr.Liebeler. You already hold a degree from the University?
Mr.Gregory. I have a bachelor's degree in economics.
Mr.Liebeler. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's?
Mr.Gregory. A master's degree.
Mr.Liebeler. In the subject you have just indicated?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; Russian language and literature.
Mr.Liebeler. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where does he live?
Mr.Gregory. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is that not correct?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And he came to the United States approximately when, do you know?
Mr.Gregory. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of the exact year.
Mr.Liebeler. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is that correct?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth?
Mr.Gregory. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right around my birthday, which is February the 10th.
Mr.Liebeler. What year were you born?
Mr.Gregory. 1941.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared before the Commission in Washington.
Mr.Gregory. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave before the Commission?
Mr.Gregory. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the only thing he said about the testimony.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of that event?
Mr.Gregory. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something; some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to use Russian.
I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was staying at the time.
And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard. So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962, your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house?
Mr.Gregory. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned?
Mr.Gregory. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this dinner which you mentioned.
Mr.Liebeler. When was the dinner?
Mr.Gregory. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the summer, I imagine, in August, 1962.
Mr.Liebeler. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his brother's place in Fort Worth?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was present at that first meeting?
Mr.Gregory. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee, and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there.
Mr.Liebeler. Plus your father and yourself?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the conversation was at that time?
Mr.Gregory. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I believe theymight have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember any details of the conversation about the Oswalds' life in Russia?
Mr.Gregory. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of discussion about it, but not this time.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that you saw them?
Mr.Gregory. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite a big help.
Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June, a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went over to their house, my father and I.
We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays—I can't remember the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from, say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the middle of September.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you also present at the dinner which your father gave for the Oswalds?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who else was present at that dinner?
Mr.Gregory. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller, her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr. Clark. I can't give you their first names.
Mr.Liebeler. You clearly remember that they were there?
Mr.Gregory. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly.
Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there.
Mr.Liebeler. The Oswalds' little girl?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more, if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving of 1962.
Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode the bus over from Dallas.
They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them.
Mr.Liebeler. You just left them off at the bus station and they went and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas?
Mr.Gregory. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You let them—did you ever give any money to either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around $35 or $40, something like that.
This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember, $35, something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that correct?
Mr.Gregory. Marina.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the Oswalds any money?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money?
Mr.Gregory. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay.
Mr.Liebeler. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any bills while in your presence?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. I often took them—I believe the second day I would go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much they spent on food?
Mr.Gregory. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat. He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought very little though.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any money or pay any bills; is that correct?
Mr.Gregory. No; never.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be, "Yes; I did not see them"?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard?
Mr.Gregory. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on?
Mr.Gregory. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him.
At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it, he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left.
Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he tell you about that?
Mr.Gregory. Oh, I just asked him—I knew he had been in the Marines—what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was sort of—look disgustedand say, "I don't want to talk about it," or something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and the second one would be one which I am not sure of.
Mr.Liebeler. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps?
Mr.Gregory. No; he was disgusted with it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from the Marines?
Mr.Gregory. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school, from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a discharge.
Mr.Liebeler. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you believed that until after the assassination and you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from Arlington?
Mr.Gregory. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he had to—the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it around to face Lenin's new position.
He brought that up as a—I would ask him about what the people in the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a disgust for the members of the Communist Party.
Mr.Liebeler. He indicated quite a disgust for them?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be, in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my part.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that he worked and what he did?
Mr.Gregory. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet Union, that he didn't eat very well.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet citizens,or——
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. They all had the same trouble?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held similar jobs?
Mr.Gregory. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave, because he had no place to go.
If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place, and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the apartment.
Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said, "Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was, because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is," and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone.
I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to correspond with these people over there.
He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one was the son of a highly fairly influential person.
Mr.Liebeler. Would that have been Pavel?
Mr.Gregory. I think. I just remember something about him, about him being a general's son or a colonel's son.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember his last name?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you?
Mr.Gregory. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one letter which was harmless. There was no—I mean it was a personal letter. Maybe I would.
Mr.Liebeler. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name?
Mr.Gregory. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel, I am fairly sure of the Pavel part.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; I think that is correct.
Mr.Gregory. That is the only name I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't remember the name of this other fellow?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one you just mentioned?
Mr.Gregory. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal matters. I can't even remember the contents.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at this point?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember, that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has been sometestimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be given when he got there.
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I remember something now. He expected—I think he and I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was, fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like this.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to Russia was to enter college or university there?
Mr.Gregory. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make this application.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had received by Russian authorities?
Mr.Gregory. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement for the fact that they did allow her to return with him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any more of the details about what he said about that?
Mr.Gregory. About these meetings?
Mr.Liebeler. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to why they did let Marina come back.
Mr.Gregory. I think he said something about it was just an accident where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her go. It was more or less an accident.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say that to you?
Mr.Gregory. Or an exception, yes, as I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or something that he couldn't readily explain?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States?
Mr.Gregory. Not that I can remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember anything else that he said about the subject of Marina being able to come back with him?
Mr.Gregory. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for her.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous difficulties as a result of this?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was put upon her by her friends?
Mr.Gregory. No; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?
Mr.Gregory. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you when this was?
Mr.Gregory. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter, because he said—no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American. It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends that—I can't remember if that was Lee or not.
When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations was after—I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back, and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't—never mind.
Mr.Liebeler. No; I would like to hear your remarks.
Mr.Gregory. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he looked at things critically over there.
He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he saw over there.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it out?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was just complaining about things, do you?
Mr.Gregory. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very brilliant man and very able leader.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember anything else that he might have said about him, Mr. Khrushchev?
Mr.Gregory. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind, and he expressed admiration of Kennedy.
Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as admiration for Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you recall any specific details concerning his remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him concerning Kennedy?
Mr.Gregory. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said, "He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the presence of anyone else?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made any remarks about Governor Connally?
Mr.Gregory. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President Kennedy?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English or understand English?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Or didn't you think about that?
Mr.Gregory. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be true. I couldn't answer the question.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak English during the time you knew her?
Mr.Gregory. Very poor. She knew two or three words.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would go sit in the corner while everyone else ate.
Mr.Liebeler. While everybody else what?
Mr.Gregory. Ate.
Mr.Liebeler. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if she used them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the extent to which she could understand English?
Mr.Gregory. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you do," something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian?
Mr.Gregory. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong accent.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of accent?
Mr.Gregory. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me."
Mr.Liebeler. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why Marina did not learn English?
Mr.Gregory. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't help her.
I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these lessons started after I had gone away to school.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it?
Mr.Gregory. No; I did not see any letter that he had written.
Mr.Liebeler. This was a letter that he had received?
Mr.Gregory. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the grammar.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian.
I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in Russian.
Mr.Liebeler. How much did he read?
Mr.Gregory. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was, but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book about Lenin?
Mr.Gregory. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was all.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought home from the library that you saw in his apartment?
Mr.Gregory. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely interesting. I can't give any titles.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of the study of history?
Mr.Gregory. No; I always—my opinion of him was that he was not very smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was my opinion of him.
He just said he always had this love of history, and he several times—one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history and philosophy and things like that.
Mr.Liebeler. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to TCU?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. For what purpose, did he tell you?
Mr.Gregory. To look for night school.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember approximately when that was?
Mr.Gregory. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there."
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the officials at TCU concerning the night school program?
Mr.Gregory. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU?
Mr.Gregory. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he referred to the schedule.
Mr.Liebeler. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when?
Mr.Gregory. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not finish high school.
Mr.Liebeler. Going back to the statements that he may have made about his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he received from his job at the factory?
Mr.Gregory. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the factory?
Mr.Gregory. He told, but I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember any discussions about his source of income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember the amount that he was paid.
Mr.Gregory. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of which he seemed to be very proud.
I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a closet full of junk.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever show you his boots?
Mr.Gregory. I think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything about them?
Mr.Gregory. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no other recollection about it than what you have just expressed?
Mr.Gregory. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet Union, but I can't identify the articles.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he tell you about that?
Mr.Gregory. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return, and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow before leaving the Soviet Union to return?
Mr.Gregory. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I heard him mention being in Moscow.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to return to the United States?
Mr.Gregory. The only difficulties which I have heard are the difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out specifically.
Mr.Liebeler. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered with the U.S. authorities in that regard?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about the U.S. officials concerning his return?
Mr.Gregory. He mentioned that they had given this money to return.
Mr.Liebeler. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned him money to return?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that gave him the money.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he express any resentment toward any of the Government officials concerning his return?
Mr.Gregory. Completely neutral.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to the State Department?
Mr.Gregory. No; he never told me.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived?
Mr.Gregory. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case, that she did pay attention to him.
He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly, could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if he had too many acquaintances.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that all he told you about the incident when the fellow factory workers were trying to learn English?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he evidently gave him quite a bit of help.
Mr.Liebeler. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was trying to learn English?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and refused to pay attention.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in learning Russian?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina helped him quite a bit.
Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union.
In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and therefore he gave me the dictionary.
Mr.Liebeler. You have that at the present time?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where is that, in Norman?
Mr.Gregory. In Norman; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I wonder if you would make that available to us?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there or something.
Mr.Liebeler. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you in Normanand obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the Commission. How do you want to handle it?
Mr.Gregory. Either way.
Mr.Liebeler. We will have somebody from the Secret Service.
Mr.Gregory. I don't know of any writing.
Mr.Liebeler. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and we will eventually return it to you.
Mr.Gregory. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him.
Mr.Liebeler. We would like the card too, if you would make that available.
Mr.Gregory. All right.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention any access that he might have had to firearms?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used that terminology?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. I could tell you—this is a personal opinion—but evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure, but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that, too.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have said about that?
Mr.Gregory. All I know is that when she returned—she said she had written her relatives—she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they disapproved her decision to come to the United States?