Mr.Ballen. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you still have the letters he wrote to you?
Mr.Ballen. No; I first started to save his letters when he and his wife walked through Central America, and this was a collection of letters, but I am not a letter saver. But I did save them, saved them until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are the only letters that I have ever saved.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned De Mohrenschildt's daughter-in-law?
Mr.Ballen. Well, his wife's daughter.
Mr.Liebeler. His wife's daughter?
Mr.Ballen. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. What are their names?
Mr.Ballen. Rags and Chris Bogoiavlensky-Kearton. And the De Mohrenschildts call them Buggers.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that Rags and Chris stayed at your house for a period of time?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long, approximately?
Mr.Ballen. About 2 weeks.
Mr.Liebeler. They originally resided in Anchorage, Alaska, is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. Well, that is where they formerly resided; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have they permanently moved from Anchorage?
Mr.Ballen. Your guess is as good as mine is. I received a letter from him this morning. They are in Philadelphia on their way to New York.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether or not these two people, Rags and Chris, ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald?
Mr.Ballen. They say they had not, and in thinking through the chronology of events, I am satisfied that they did not. There was some confusion in my mind in my interview with the FBI about the individual who Rags and Chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try to help.
They drove him to east Texas once and to a timber farm.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this the other person whom you described a little while back as another stray dog?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. While Rags and Chris stayed at your house, did you have any discussions with them as to what the De Mohrenschildts had said about the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. They were very upset that George and Jeanne were publicly stating in Port-au-Prince that the FBI had assassinated Kennedy, and that Oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to be banding about.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding you to say that Rags and Chris reported to you that De Mohrenschildt and his wife were saying publicly in Port-au-Prince that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of Kennedy and Oswald was a patsy?
Mr.Ballen. They told me that they stated that at a reception for members of the Foreign Diplomatic Corps in Port-au-Prince.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you when that reception was?
Mr.Ballen. It would have been while Chris and Rags were in Haiti.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Rags and Chris tell you they heard De Mohrenschildt make this remark?
Mr.Ballen. That was the impression I had, but I couldn't answer your question directly.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the dates that Rags and Chris were in Port-au-Prince?
Mr.Ballen. This is March. I believe that Rags and Chris came through my house possibly the first week of December 1963. They stayed at my house one night. We had quite a bit of snow that night. They had come through in a mad rush from Alaska. They left Florida for Haiti, and they left Haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house.
Mr.Liebeler. When did they show up at your house again for the second time?
Mr.Ballen. They left my house 2 Sundays ago, and they would have been at my house a total of 2 weeks. They would have arrived at my house at about March 2, something like that. They would have arrived at my house March 1, and left March 15, more or less.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you state for us, as best you can recall, the conversations that you had with Rags and Chris concerning these remarks allegedly made by De Mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house.
Mr.Ballen. This information was brought to me by Rags and Chris that they were very much upset about it. And I told Rags that probably all of George's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that I felt that sooner or later he would be called before the Warren Commission.
The FBI had already interviewed me, I told Rags, and that distressed him a little bit that the FBI was probably intercepting his mail and probably had a tail on him.
He thought I was kidding, and I said, no; that this was a pretty serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he then took the initiative to call the FBI and said if they wanted to see him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and so they came out to my house and interviewed him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Rags told the FBI about the remarks that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made?
Mr.Ballen. I do not. I was out of the house when the FBI agent was there, but I kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room where they were.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know the name of the agent who came out?
Mr.Ballen. He was one of the agents who interviewed me from California. Had a very nice tan, but I don't know his name.
Mr.Liebeler. One of the two agents that interviewed you when?
Mr.Ballen. About March 6th or 7th.
Mr.Liebeler. The interview that you have just referred to concerns your acquaintanceship with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Ballen. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I advised you that the names of the agent that interviewed you were W. James Wood and Raymond P. Yelchek?
Mr.Ballen. The gentleman who came out to my house was Mr. Wood.
Mr.Liebeler. It was Mr. Wood that interviewed Rags, is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Rags discuss with you the interview after the agent had left?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Rags tell you anything about his conversations with De Mohrenschildt after De Mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of the President?
Mr.Ballen. Just to the extent that he or Chris had protested vigorously on politics generally with George, and as I had already known before Rags came to my house, the visit in Haiti had deteriorated into quite a personality clash.
I had gotten a letter from George which showed that he was very critical on personal grounds of Rags.
Mr.Liebeler. Why was De Mohrenschildt critical of Rags, do you remember?
Mr.Ballen. These are personal matters, and I am just asking a question now. Is it within the realm of your interest? These are really personal matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a son-in-law of his wife, and, so, I wrote back to George and said that his anger was only natural, that the Navajos had a taboo against sons seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and maybe the Navajos know what they are talking about.
But to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a personal matter, and I really do not think it has anything—any bearing here. If you want me to discuss it, I will.
Mr.Liebeler. No; if you represent to me that the differences were of a purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me.
Mr.Ballen. With only one exception, and that is that George, by his overall nature, is leaning to left center, and Rags, by his overall nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this was one of the sources of some conflict.
Mr.Liebeler. They had political differences, in other words, also?
Mr.Ballen. In their overall perspective; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you told us everything that you can remember about your conversations with Rags concerning these statements by De Mohrenschildt that the FBI was responsible for the assassination? Tell us everything about that that you can remember, either about your conversation with Rags, or what Rags told you about his conversation with De Mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to De Mohrenschildt's statements.
Mr.Ballen. He or Chris said that the American Embassy down there was very disturbed that George, at a cocktail party possibly run by, well, I think by someone in the Foreign Corps there, whether it be the French, that George or Jeanne had made this statement, and it was a foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and I think also at that party there was a Negro emissary from one of the newly free republics in Africa who told the Haitians that if Haiti is the result of 300 years of freedom, he would like to go back to French rule.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Rags specifically mention the names of anybody else who was at this party, that you can remember?
Mr.Ballen. No; I don't think so. And if he had, it wouldn't rest with me. This was one of numerous cocktail parties down there.
I had the impression, from what Rags said, that this was George's statement and was known to the American Embassy down there.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what Rags said about that?
Mr.Ballen. That it was distressing to the American Embassy, and that George and Jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the American Embassy.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Rags indicate whether or not De Mohrenschildt had been interviewed by the FBI while he was living in Port-au-Prince?
Mr.Ballen. Yes; George had said to me in one of his letters that he had had a previous visit with the FBI, and then subsequently Mr. Wood—was that his name?
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Wood was the gentleman who interviewed Rags.
Mr.Ballen. He subsequently; yes, subsequently I believe Mr. Wood indicated that he had gone down there and also had met George.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Wood indicated that to you at some point in his interview of you, is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. No; after his interview with me he indicated to Chris and Rags that he had just the day before or 2 days before seen George and Jeanne previously at the American Embassy at Port-au-Prince and they were looking fine.
But prior to that, much prior to that, I had written to George and told him that I had received a visit from the FBI inquiring about him. And he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the gray flannel suit boys.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't tell you any details of his conversation with the FBI?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Based on your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt and your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's relations with Oswald, do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that De Mohrenschildt could have been involved in the assassination in any way?
Mr.Ballen. None whatsoever.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed this matter with anybody?
Mr.Ballen. Would you make your question a little more specific?
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed with anybody the possibility of De Mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. Only to the extent that on November 23, when I realized that I had known Oswald and I realized how I had met him, my wife and I then said, how in heck did George meet him and that George had better have a good answer to that one.
And during the ensuing months I have made inquiries of the Russian colony here and kind of came to the understanding that George had met him through George Bouhe.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you speak to Mr. Bouhe about that?
Mr.Ballen. No; I haven't seen George Bouhe.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember who told you that De Mohrenschildt and Oswald had met through Bouhe?
Mr.Ballen. It would have either been Declan Ford or Natasha Voshinin.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with any of these people the possibility that De Mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you heard anybody else discuss that question?
Mr.Ballen. No; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is, the first time I have heard that question raised is today.
Mr.Liebeler. Yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified, when you heard that, when you recalled that Oswald was the man that De Mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife De Mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met Oswald; is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. In your letters with De Mohrenschildt or through the contact that you had with De Mohrenschildt through Rags and Chris, did you learn what the last contact was that De Mohrenschildt had with Oswald prior to the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. No; this was not discussed with any of them. I have the feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their leaving Dallas for Haiti 9 months ago.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know that Oswald and De Mohrenschildt corresponded after De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti?
Mr.Ballen. I do not.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of any other matter about which you might have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think should be brought to the attention of the Commission in connection with this matter?
Mr.Ballen. I would only add that in my opinion, George is an extremely discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best, but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and I would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as anyone on the type of person that Lee Harvey Oswald was.
George was speaking the language. There was a rapport. They were both familiar with the same geography, and George and his wife were befriending him. I would think George could give a pretty good personality sketch and political sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth in the remark that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning the FBI's involvement in the assassination and Oswald's being a patsy.
Mr.Ballen. Do I have any reason to believe that?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Ballen. No, sir; I have no reason to believe that. I would only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my mind about Lee Harvey Oswald, and if I were to draw up alternative possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of 10,000 other possibilities, I suppose included in that 10,000 might be some unofficial cabal of the FBI, but the answer to your question is "No."
Mr.Liebeler. Did Rags or Chris indicate to you whether or not either of the De Mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that the FBI was involved?
Let me ask you preliminarily, did Rags or Chris indicate that De Mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have uttered?
Mr.Ballen. They indicated that in De Mohrenschildt's emotional state, that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at.
Mr.Liebeler. Now let's go back to the preceding question. Were there any reasons expressed by De Mohrenschildt for this belief?
Mr.Ballen. No; because Rags and Chris said this is a madness. That there are no reasons, and this is a madness.
Mr.Liebeler. Had De Mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he believed this?
Mr.Ballen. None were expressed to me; no, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you want to add?
Mr.Ballen. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you very much, Mr. Ballen.
The testimony of Mrs. Lydia Dymitruk was taken on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Jenner. I am Albert Jenner.
Mrs. Dymitruk, will you stand to be sworn, please?
I am about to take your testimony by deposition. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you. Be seated please.
Mrs. Dymitruk, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the staff counsel and consultant for and to the Commission appointed by the President of the United States to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy.
Now this is a Commission appointed pursuant to Executive Order of the President of the United States, Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United States No. 137.
Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your deposition taken?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. And included with that letter were copies of the Executive order and the resolution to which I have made reference?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine American citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; I am.
Mr.Jenner. As it appears from the Executive order and the resolution, the Commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain respecting and relating to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and also the subsequent death of Lee Oswald, and persons involved in those two unfortunate events. And it is our information that you have some possible information that might help us with respect to Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and I should like to question you about that.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir; I am ready.
Mr.Jenner. You seem a little excited. Why don't you sit back and relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. Nothing's going to happen to you.
Mrs.Dymitruk. I'm not afraid.
Mr.Jenner. Your name is Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And do I correctly pronounce your name?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir; that's all right.
Mr.Jenner. And it is spelled [spelling] L-y-d-i-a. And Dymitruk is [spelling] D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. You live at 3542½ 10th Street in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And I'm not going to ask you if Fort Worth is a suburb of Dallas—because I understand that would offend you.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir [laughter].
Mr.Jenner. But it is a large Texas city about, what—25 or 30 miles from here?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir; I like it very much.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, it's a splendid town. You're employed at the Neiman-Marcus store in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I understand that's a beautiful store.
Mrs.Dymitruk. It is—it is beautiful store and nice place to work—and I like it.
Mr.Jenner. How long have you resided in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Dymitruk. How long I'm in Fort Worth?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Let me see—I think it was from August.
Mr.Jenner. Of what year?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Last year.
Mr.Jenner. 1962?
Mrs.Dymitruk. 1962—yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. And where have you resided prior to August 1962?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Why?
Mr.Jenner. Where? You came to Fort Worth in August 1962, did you say?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yeah; yeah.
Mr.Jenner. From where?
Mrs.Dymitruk. From Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. From Dallas?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You had been a resident of Dallas up to that time?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. How long had you been a resident of Dallas?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, about 4 years—and 3, 4 months.
Mr.Jenner. And from where had you come when you came to Dallas?
Mrs.Dymitruk. From Belgium—Brussels.
Mr.Jenner. Are you a native of Belgium?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir; I am a citizen of Belgium.
Mr.Jenner. You are acitizen——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Born in Soviet Union.
Mr.Jenner. I might occasionally have to ask what might be considered personal questions but I'm not merely curious—I'm seeking information.
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's okay.
Mr.Jenner. What is your age?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Thirty-seven.
Mr.Jenner. Thirty-seven.
Are you married?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever been married?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. In this country or in Belgium or in Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I was married in Belgium.
Mr.Jenner. Married in Belgium?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did your husband come with you to this country?
Mrs.Dymitruk. He came first to United States, and I came afterward.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from Russia, where you were born, to Belgium.
Mrs.Dymitruk. In 1942, we were kidnapped from the Germans during the war and brought to Germany—Dusseldorf.
Mr.Jenner. Was this your parents and you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; just sister—an older sister and I and that's all. We are separated from the family.
Mr.Jenner. And the German Army took you to Dusseldorf?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And then you were freed by the advancing Allied armies, essentially?
Mrs.Dymitruk. The Americans.
Mr.Jenner. The Americans?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
And you and your sister went to Belgium, did you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; 1945. After the war.
Mr.Jenner. Now, my arithmetic is very bad. How old were you then?
Mrs.Dymitruk. In 1945?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, 17.
Mr.Jenner. All right. So you were about 15 years old when you were captured by the Germans?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you live in Russia when you were captured by the Germans?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Rostov.
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] R-o-s-t-o-v?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Or is that "o-w"?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; it's "v".
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any brothers?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. Just yourself and your sister were the only children?
Mrs.Dymitruk. And a little sister—she was born after the war, in 1947. So, I haven't seen her.
Mr.Jenner. Your parents are still in Russia as far as you know?
Mrs.Dymitruk. They are; yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Were either of your parents active politically in Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Active politically?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; was your father an active member of the Communist Party, for example?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Were you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. Is your husband still in this country?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You don't?
Mrs.Dymitruk. We were divorced for, I think, 3 years ago—3½ years ago. I don't know where he is.
Mr.Jenner. I take it for part of this time at least—was he an American?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; he was from White Russia.
Mr.Jenner. White Russia?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You were married in Belgium, were you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And he preceded you to this country?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he settle here in the Dallas area?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; he settled for awhile. And—uh—he never settled down in same place. He always traveled all over United States to find a better place to live. But I like here, and I stay here.
Mr.Jenner. What was his business or occupation?
Mrs.Dymitruk. His occupation?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. He was a draftsman.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Is he now an American citizen?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I heard yes.
Mr.Jenner. I see. And you certainly are?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Not yet.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, you're not yet?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. What status are you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Sir?
Mr.Jenner. What is your status? Have you applied?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I applied 5 years ago when I came to this country that I would like to be American citizen. I can read, I can speak, but I can't write. So that's why I have to go to school first.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, to write English?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes. To have examinations you have to learn writing English.
Mr.Jenner. I see. But you are doing that?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, yes; I study at home.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And the Constitution of the United States.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes; great document!
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Were any children born of your marriage?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No children.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know a lady by the name of Anna Meller?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Sometimes pronounced "Miller"?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me your acquaintance with Anna Meller. How did it come about?
Mrs.Dymitruk. When I came to UnitedStates——
Mr.Jenner. Wait a minute. What year was that?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I think it was 1960.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You came to the United States and you came to Dallas?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You joined your husband here?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you became acquainted with Anna Meller?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Not through him.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Through George Bouhe.
Mr.Jenner. George Bouhe?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I met him the other day. Monday, as a matter of—what is today? Yes, Monday.
George Bouhe—he's a resident here in Dallas, a man who takes a great interest in all Russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a little church, did he not?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, he helps everybody I know.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. He's a short, bald-headed man?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes. He's not just to help Russian people, he helps everybody—Germans, Belgians, everybody.
Mr.Jenner. He's a generous man?
Mrs.Dymitruk. He just like to help. That'sall——
Mr.Jenner. He's bouncy and vigorous. All right. I interrupted you. Go ahead.
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's okay.
Mr.Jenner. Your acquaintance with Anna Meller?
MrsDymitruk. Yes; I met her at George'shouse——
Mr.Jenner. You met her where?
Mrs.Dymitruk. At George Bouhe's house.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And, since then, once in while I see her in church or I go visit her at home.
Mr.Jenner. All right. What church is that?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It's the Russian church.
Mr.Jenner. Russian Orthodox Church?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Russian Orthodox Church. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the name of it? Saint somebody or other?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I don't know the name because I go to both churches. One is Father Dimitri's church on Newton Avenue. I went there and few times I went to George Bouhe—but I don't know the name. I don't know if it's his name or not. I don't know; really. That's his church and he just likes everybody to go there—but I prefer to go to this one—Father Dimitri's church.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So, once in while, I see Anna Meller at a party somewhere or when I'm in Dallas, I visit with her and her husband.
Mr.Jenner. In their home?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In 1962, you were living in Dallas?
Mrs.Dymitruk. 1962; yeah.
Mr.Jenner. You had an apartment of your own at that time?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And where was that?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It was on McKinney Avenue.
Mr.Jenner. McKinney?
Mrs.Dymitruk. McKinney Avenue. Yes. Palm Gardens Apartments.
Mr.Jenner. And was there an occasion when there was an interchange between you and Mrs. Meller with respect to the possibility of your befriending or harboring another lady—taking somebody into your home—your apartment?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. No?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any conversation at any time between you and Mrs. Meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home temporarily?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, I couldn't take in my home because I got just one little room. I couldn't take. But it was once a conversation—I remember it—that Marina Oswald, she was looking to live with somebody in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her husband.
Mr.Jenner. Separated?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes. It was some kind of conversation that I ought to help her, or something, but I didn't know her in that time.
Mr.Jenner. Had you heard of her at that time?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I heard about her, yes; but I haven't met her.
Mr.Jenner. From whom?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It was from Anna Meller. Anna Meller and George Bouhe. Both of them.
Mr.Jenner. Told youabout——
Mrs.Dymitruk. About, yes. That she's separated from her husband and she are looking for—uh—to help—for somebody can help her to find a living or somewhere. But she was at that time somewhere living with somebody, but I don't know with whom.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Did George Bouhe or Mrs. Meller then tell you about this lady?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, yes; she told me—yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did she—what did they tell you about her?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I visit her on Sunday once and—uh—she told me that Marina was in her apartment for a week.
Mr.Jenner. Had lived with Mrs. Meller a week?
Mrs.Dymitruk. With Mrs. Meller; Yes. And that she went back to her husband and that she called, that was on Sunday, and she cried that her baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital.
Mr.Jenner. The husband would not take them to the hospital?
Mrs.Dymitruk. The baby to the hospital or to see a doctor.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And she askedme——
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Meller asked you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Mrs. Meller; yes. She asked me if I want to go and see her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because I've got my own transportation. And I told her on Sunday, I don't want to go. So—and I thought about it on Monday and I think, "Well, I don't know. If something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. I better go." So, on Tuesday was my day off and so Anna Meller she give me the address and she says, "If you can go—if you go to her and see her, could you bring the books?" They borrowed a dictionary—English dictionary—hers and George Bouhe's—dictionaries. I said, "Well, okay."
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Mrs. Meller asked you that if you went to the Oswalds, would you please bring withyou——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. English-language and Russian-languagedictionaries——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, they were English.
Mr.Jenner. English dictionaries that the Mellers had; that you would then bringthem——
Mrs.Dymitruk. To her.
Mr.Jenner. To Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No. Those books were at Marina's house.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Dymitruk. There was two books. One, George gave it to her; and other one, Anna Meller gave it to her.
Mr.Jenner. And they were both English-language dictionaries?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; English-Russian.
Mr.Jenner. English-Russian?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
So, she asked me to bring it back—those books.
Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So, it was on Tuesday early in themorning——
Mr.Jenner. Tuesday?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Tuesday.
Mr.Jenner. I thought you said Thursday?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; Tuesday is my day off.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And on Tuesday I went to Marina's house—I found her house—and——
Mr.Jenner. Was she at home?
Mrs.Dymitruk. At first, I couldn't find her at all. I went, first, to see the landlady, and I talked to her for a minute—maybe 5 or 10 minutes—and I ask her where she lives, in which apartment. There was so many apartments—some empty—and, you know, I just couldn't find her. So, she showed me where to go up to find her. So, I came there, I knocked on door and she came. And I asked her if she was Marina Oswald and she said, "Yes."
Mr.Jenner. Is that the first time you ever met Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's the first time. I think was the first time. The first I remember.
Mr.Jenner. Okay.
Mrs.Dymitruk. She said, "well, yes?"
And I said to her, "I hear that your baby is sick. Anna Meller told me that your baby's very sick and you need help. And maybe I can help you to bring that baby to the hospital."
"Oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and I'm in trouble with him. I don't know what to do."
And I said, "Where is he?"
"Well, he's working."
I said, "Well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." I said, "Do you have a doctor of your own?"
She said, "Well, I don't know. It was some kind of doctor before, but I don't know."
I said, "Well, okay. Let's go to the hospital."
Mr.Jenner. Were you speaking in Russian?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, I take it, you have a fluent command of the Russian language—you speak Russian well?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And do you have an impression as to Marina? Did she speak Russian well?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So—and she said that the baby had103——
Mr.Jenner. Fever?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Fever. And I said—it was some kind of cold weather—"You had better put some warm clothes—and in the car it's warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby."
She said, "Well, all right."
So, it was about 10 o'clock or10:30——
Mr.Jenner. In the morning?
Mrs.Dymitruk. In the morning.
I went to the Parkland Hospital.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, we'll just hesitate a minute.
Did you enter the apartment?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And tell us what you observed as to the conditions around the apartment. How she was dressed; whether you thought they might or did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? You know.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Uh—I think she was all right. And house was clean. And it was, I mean, it was nice apartment. I lived in much worse apartment when I came to United States—so——
Mr.Jenner. So, she was neat, the apartment was neat andclean——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she was neat and clean?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, I take it, you had, at that moment, a good impression of her?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what sex was this baby—girl or boy?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It was a girl.
Mr.Jenner. A little girl. About how old?
Mrs.Dymitruk. (Gesturing with hands.) Baby couldn't walk. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Could not walk? All right. That's really what I was getting at. She was carrying the baby in her arms?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Could you recall a little more clearly what she said about her husband? That is, was she having difficulty with him or were they getting along well—or what was your impression in that respect?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, I haven't seen him at all—so, I couldn't sayanything——
Mr.Jenner. I know, but from what she said, Mrs. Dymitruk?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, that's what she said about her husband—that he's against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to pay the bills.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So, I said to her at the Parkland Hospital you don't have to pay anything or maybe something—I don't know.
So, I took her to the hospital with her baby.
Mr.Jenner. You went to the Parkland Hospital here in Dallas?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you drove Marina and her child?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Okay.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked the baby, fever 103, they give some little medicine for the temperature to go down, and they said, "I'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have a children's doctor here."
Mr.Jenner. Do not have a children's doctor?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; I was little bit surprised because they deliver babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's doctor.
Mr.Jenner. Yeah.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And I said, "Well, what we can do right now? I don't know what to do with the baby now."
"Well, if you can come in the evening."
Mr.Jenner. The doctor or the attendantsaid——
Mrs.Dymitruk. That was the nurse.
And she said, "Well, in the evening, it will be a doctor for the children."
I said, "Is it possible to find somebody else right now?"
Because the baby couldn't breathe and I don't know—I don't have my own children but really I was scared to see baby.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. And they said, "Well, we give the address to go to another children's hospital in Dallas."
And that's what I did.
Mr.Jenner. You and Marina and the baby then droveto——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember where that was?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Sir, I don't remember. It was a little hospital—children's hospital. I think it was free. You don't have to pay anything.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes; it was a clinic-type of hospital?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Just for children.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So, when I come there there were at least 40 children there waiting.
Mr.Jenner. 40?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I think so. There were so many children.
And at first I asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is possible right away.
Mr.Jenner. Because the baby has a fever?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; and she said, "Well, I'm sorry. I can't help it."
Mr.Jenner. Cannot?
Mrs.Dymitruk. "I cannot—because they have so many children here and you have to wait your turn."
I said, "Maybe those children——"—I see around there—playing around—so, I say, "Maybe they don't have a fever high like this. Can't you take baby right away?"
"Oh, no; you have to wait 3 or 4 hours"—or something like that.
I said, "Well, I'm sorry. We have to go home."
So, I brought her home. It was about 2 o'clock. And I said to her, "Well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. If you want it, I can take you to hospital this evening."
She said, "Yes."
So I came to see her around, maybe 6 o'clock—maybe 5 o'clock or something—I don't remember. But when I came home to see her her husband wasn't home.
Mr.Jenner. Was not?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Was not. I said, "Now, Marina, I would like to take you to the hospital. Do you want to go?"
She said, "Yes; but wait just a minute when my husband will be back."
I said, "Okay."
So he came home and first he waseating——
Mr.Jenner. Were you introduced to him?
Mr.Dymitruk. Yes. She said, "That's my husband." And he spoke Russian to me.
Mr.Jenner. He did speak Russian?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; and I was really surprised—in short time, he spoke nicely.
Mr.Jenner. He spoke pretty good Russian?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
So—and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby. And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay."
So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and they were fighting in the living room—what to do—to go or not to go.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a real argument?
Mrs.Dymitruk. It was. Yes. I could hear from the kitchen that they argued.
Mr.Jenner. It was a heated argument?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, they were just—uh—I don't know what it was all about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to the hospital.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. And from what you heard of this argument, he didn't want to go, she did?
Mrs.Dymitruk. She want to go buthe——
Mr.Jenner. He did not want to go?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right."
So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He—the doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray—a lung X-ray and, I don't know, all kind of tests, right away.
So, on the way back—he got some kind of papers, I think it was two copies or three copies ofpapers——
Mr.Jenner. From the hospital?
Mrs.Dymitruk. From the doctor to go to the service desk.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. So, at the service desk—he was standing here [indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the baby. So—and the service desk asked question—the address and if he's working, and he said "No."
Mr.Jenner. Not working?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment—do you get some unemployment money?"
He said, "No."
And she said, "Well, how do you live then?"
He said, "Well, friends helping me."
And Marina—she was behind me—and she says, "What a liar!"
And they argue again.
Mr.Jenner. They argued—between the two of them?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes, in Russian language.
Mr.Jenner. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just told us?
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's what she told. That's what she told.
Mr.Jenner. Did he hear her say that—is whatI'm——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes—because then they were in argument.
Mr.Jenner. Then, they got in an argument?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what was the argument about?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, about the—that he is not working—because he was lying.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Did he say why he lied?
Mrs.Dymitruk. No; no. He didn't say anything.
So, that piece of paper—he received some kind ofpaper——
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Dymitruk. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I think so—but he put it in his pocket.
Mr.Jenner. He put the paper in his pocket?
Mrs.Dymitruk. In his pocket.
And so we came out and I brought them home—and I didn't come into the house.
Mr.Jenner. They just got out of the car and went in?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes. They didn't say anything—thank you or what—anything.
Mr.Jenner. To you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Nothing.
Mr.Jenner. They just got out?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is free. It's suppose to be free here, too."
I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted.
Mr.Jenner. You weredisgusted——
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With him?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I was disgusted with him[laughing]——
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of his argument was that these things were free inRussia——
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And they should be free in the United States?
Mrs.Dymitruk. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he shouldn't be paying?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes; that's what he figures.
Mr.Jenner. When, if ever, did you next see either Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Dymitruk. I have seen her. It was in 1963, summertime—I think was in July or June, or something like that. I saw her in Irving. I worked in Irving as manager of a French bakery in the Wyatt's Store—located in Wyatt's Store there.
Mr.Jenner. That's a supermarket?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes. And I managed the bakery.
So, I saw hershopping——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. I assume you speak French, too, do you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Very little.
Mr.Jenner. Very little?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes. Flemish and German.
Mr.Jenner. Flemish and German and Russian—and English?
Mrs.Dymitruk. And English.
Mr.Jenner. You do very well with English.
Mrs.Dymitruk. Thank you. And I saw her with little baby and her dressed maternity.
Mr.Jenner. So she had the same child she had the year before?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she was pregnant with another child?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Well, she was dressed like she was.
And I just saw her from far—and I said, "Marina?"
"Oh!" she says, "How are you?"
I said, "Okay."
Mr.Jenner. Did she recognize you?
Mrs.Dymitruk. Oh, yes. And she said, "Do you see anything on me?"