Mr.Jenner. With whose daughter?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. With George's daughter.
Mr.Jenner. Alexandra?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.
Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was complaining about her. So Alexandra—it didn't hit off exactly with Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, and I think they helped them to move, even.
Mr.Jenner. Gary Taylor?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.
Mr.Jenner. You mean he is not a man of attainment?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had.
Mr.Jenner. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to Russia?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. None at all.
Mr.Jenner. That is entirely new to you?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than we ever knew about them.
Mr.Jenner. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, as well.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Could be, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Did I what?
Mr.Jenner. Are you aware of theletter——
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. You are?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did your husband show you that letter?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Before he sent it?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything or if he wants to add anything to mine.
Mr.Jenner. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter was mailed.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't think I really should read it.
Do you want me to read it again?
Mr.Jenner. You have read that exhibit?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read this, too?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. Back on the record.
The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him in the same feeling.
Mr.Jenner. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. Now, all that is true; isn't it?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know how to feed that baby.
Mr.Jenner. She did not?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was 9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, didn't have anything.
I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a balanced diet.
I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to raise a baby correctly."
She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth.
Mr.Jenner. Marina's teeth?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; of course.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. She just didn't know any better, you know. That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them all sportsmen, verytough, you know, just thinking of their work, sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was absolutely too—I never thought that. I thought they were very, very proper andvery——
Mr.Jenner. What did she say about how they behaved?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy interests.
And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all are, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very little, because he was always working or something. One evening I talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I was really sorry for her.
I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You cannot be very angry with her.
Mr.Jenner. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that expression I assume they were partiesof——
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never occur to us.
Mr.Jenner. In this country?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. In this country. I would say China, too. I was brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth never acted like that at all.
So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely degeneration.
Mr.Jenner. You found her, while you knew she was apharmacist——
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. In bringing up the child?
Mr.Jenner. In bringing up this child?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely.
Mr.Jenner. That she fed her sugar and water?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Milk and sugar.
Mr.Jenner. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with the child?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. The child was more or less clean, but with this pacifier thing.
Mr.Jenner. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up and stick it in the baby's mouth?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected teeth, but she was notaware of it. That is what didn't make sense, didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist—it also didn't make any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the medical help is supposed to be absolutely free.
Mr.Jenner. Can you recall any other incidents?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. With Marina?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't recollect of anything of any importance.
Mr.Jenner. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests were involved, let us say?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was asked—I mean what swayed me about herpersonality——
Mr.Jenner. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers afterward. I want your opinion.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Before?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, promiscuous, you know.
Mr.Jenner. What?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Promiscuous.
Mr.Jenner. She was promiscuous but not malicious?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her.
Mr.Jenner. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and these gadgets and a refrigerator?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for very little money.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know if he even drives a car.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see him drive a car?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I have. We didn't have too much discussions about it.
Mr.Jenner. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic.
Mr.Jenner. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. She did.
Mr.Jenner. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I know her very little, but I recall her. I think it is Lydia, isn't it?
Mr.Jenner. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in Baylor Hospital, dental clinic.
Mr.Jenner. Some money had to be paid in that connection?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you got that money from George Bouhe?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. That is right, and he told me there would be thenecessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some funds for them.
Mr.Jenner. That if there was need for additionalmoney——
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously." You have told us about that?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." Is that correct?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You recall that?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was that the Mellers?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, go through all that trying to do something for them and then she dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles.
Mr.Jenner. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which Marina left Lee and went with some others?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't even remember that.
Mr.Jenner. You don't?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only connection we had.
Mr.Jenner. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and the late President was successful in so many domains and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband discuss that sentence with you?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this letter.
Mr.Jenner. But you read the letter before it was mailed?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I read the letter.
The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have that impression of the man?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No, never at all.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that is understandable, too. We learned thatConnally refused him honorable discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, no.
Mr.Jenner. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No. We read it in the papers after.
Mr.Jenner. I want to keep separated here what you learned about afterwards.
Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Never.
Mr.Jenner. That you had any contact with the Oswalds?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever mentioned?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was his boyhood ever mentioned?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. His boyhood?
Mr.Jenner. Boyhood.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No. Never, never.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't remember discussing that.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in the service, and what he had done?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No. I don't recall any conversation.
Mr.Jenner. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, that was rationalization afterwards?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely.
Mr.Jenner. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions should have been taken."
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Right. I agree.
Mr.Jenner. Did you discuss that with your husband?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson.
Mr.Jenner. So this remark in the letter is based on that?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. On that, exactly.
Mr.Jenner. That is as far as you are concerned?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. As far as we are concerned, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband may have had something else in mind?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right wing, extreme right wing?
Mr.Jenner. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. And so there was a lotof——
Mr.Jenner. Animosity?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan.
Mr.Jenner. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all theevidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last sentence, did your husband discuss that with you?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. We talk about it very often.
Mr.Jenner. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't even see the letter.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he prepared the letter?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just wrote the letter.
Mr.Jenner. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more than once?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I think I took her twice there, I believe. They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit.
Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, "For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you still didn't meet the Oswalds?"
She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason."
I said, "What are the reasons?"
She said, "I cannot tell you."
Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you gave them these language records?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. A phonograph.
Mr.Jenner. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money that you had received from George Bouhe?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Right.
Mr.Jenner. But you didn't give them any of your own money?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Not that I ever recall.
Mr.Jenner. You brought them gifts?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Just tiny little things.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. You gave her some clothing.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have it altered for her and she didn't need to.
Mr.Jenner. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home overnight you gaveher——
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like that.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever discuss his finances with you and your husband?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay out the debt.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the United States and its form of government?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Never. He objected to the way the integration question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do.
Mr.Jenner. He was opposed to segregation, was he?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we have.
Mr.Jenner. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his views were.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is completely in accord with President Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this investigation?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Well, the only thing, the question I actually brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Never heard of him.
Mr.Jenner. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. That he operated?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, disposed to attend that sort of thing.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No; not at all.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence.
Mr.Jenner. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as drinking is concerned?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. I mean apart from newsreels?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. TV? No.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No; not that I recall.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of Jack Ruby's places?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put it that way.
Mr.Jenner. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the newspapers?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is the only thing I know.
Mr.Jenner. And not on any actual facts you know anything about?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. No, sir; and, also based on the natural deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any sense. The whole evidence just points to—the thing is much too simple. How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn'the try to cover it up a little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any sense.
No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't have a good time, I am sure, and he did not.
What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know?
It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it.
Mr.Jenner. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first time?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. That you knew anything about a rifle?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only person that was, you know, what I mean—maybe it was just because she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with Marines staying in the east.
Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling—Marina was telling me the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so on and so forth.
Mr.Jenner. That is, Oswald had told her that?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, something like that.
Mr.Jenner. She needled him?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be completely imagination, you know, all of these things.
Mr.Jenner. You have appeared voluntarily?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. What did you say?
Mr.Jenner. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your deposition?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, absolutely.
Mr.Jenner. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from Mr. Rankin?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we did.
Mr.Jenner. General counsel of the Commission?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution 137?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was created, and a copy of President LyndonJohnson's——
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; two copies.
Mr.Jenner. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And fixing its responsibilities?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed that is what it was.
Mr.Jenner. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I probably did.
Mr.Jenner. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you andyour husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately has led to this.
Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden to see your child."
The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did something very big.
Mr.Jenner. Well, he didn't.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow—at the moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart.
The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever possible and he is really doing something constructive.
By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult.
For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped?
Mr.Jenner. We will see what we can do about it.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able to see the little girl.
We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?"
He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anythingwe can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it will come up.
For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in 2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know.
Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's little girl.
If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you very much.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. You want the addresses?
Mr.Jenner. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish.
Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the necessity of reading it.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little things to do.
Mr.Jenner. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I am sure, because if something was not just exactly so, I don't think it really matters.
Mr.Jenner. These men are quite competent and they take down everything.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. That is wonderful.
Mr.Jenner. Then you will waive your reading and signing?
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to be signed?
Mr.Jenner. No; not unless you insist on it.
Mrs.De Mohrenschildt. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the other.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you very, very much.
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.
Mr.Jenner. Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the dayyesterday.1