Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion?
Mr.Ray. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He wasn't real good to her.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have beaten Marina up?
Mr.Ray. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation.
Mr.Liebeler. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned?
Mr.Ray. Yeah.
Mr.Liebeler. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald?
Mr.Ray. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald along these lines as far as you can remember?
Mr.Ray. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said at this point?
Mr.Ray. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no. I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and that's the way it went.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr.Ray. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you know what I mean?
Mr.Liebeler. The United States you mean?
Mr.Ray. Yeah; why did they take him back and how—the question in my mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked odd to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife out partly related to the difficulties you had had?
Mr.Ray. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did look odd to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this question?
Mr.Ray. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I wouldn't say for sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in Russian while you were there or did they speak in English—the people that were at the house?
Mr.Ray. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian and it just—I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all. I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of leaves Ed and I out when we are together.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines?
Mr.Ray. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the Russians would not want him or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you believe?
Mr.Ray. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility, see.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say you believe what you are really saying is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm recollection?
Mr.Ray. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit prior to the assassination?
Mr.Ray. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure we talked about it.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation might have been?
Mr.Ray. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the country.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you why she was concerned?
Mr.Ray. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that they might have sent him back for something.
Mr.Liebeler. She expressed that feeling to you?
Mr.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the assassination?
Mr.Ray. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know, the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know, brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President. I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a year or something like that but I had to tell him who Iwas before he remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told me "Yeah, that's the guy."
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have been the man who really did assassinate the President?
Mr.Ray. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all those places in that short length of time.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories?
Mr.Ray. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how many blocks away it was and later apprehended inthis——
Mr.Liebeler. Texas Theatre.
Mr.Ray. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone?
Mr.Ray. I don't know but there was something said about—now, George was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I remember that statement.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his previous association with Oswald?
Mr.Ray. No; he didn't say a word about that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind?
Mr.Ray. I think so; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe?
Mr.Ray. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the paper", said "It's all in there."
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember if he said anything else?
Mr.Ray. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I don't remember anything.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about that?
Mr.Ray. About this deal?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Ray. No; that was the only time.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you seen him at any time?
Mr.Ray. Haven't seen him since then.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody else that was at this party about this assassination?
Mr.Ray. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't—now, that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and that's—of course, we discussed it then.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was discussed?
Mr.Ray. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how it came about, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a Russian agent?
Mr.Ray. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was said about it?
Mr.Ray. No; I cannot because I just don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a Russian agent?
Mr.Ray. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a Russian agent.
Mr.Liebeler. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did you get that opinion?
Mr.Ray. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever telling you that they thought he was?
(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.)
Mr.Ray. No, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be?
Mr.Ray. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or not he was a Russian agent or might be?
Mr.Ray. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course, you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would want, you know, for a Russian agent.
Mr.Liebeler. That isjust——
Mr.Ray. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the people that knew him thought; I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. That is just your own thought on it?
Mr.Ray. That is my own thoughts on it, see.
Mr.Davis. Have you all—I might inject here—have you all gone over the point—did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of these other people that it was strange about them being able to come out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed?
Mr.Ray. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or longer—how long was he over there? Anyway, they lethim——
Mr.Davis. Going on 3 years.
Mr.Ray. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of ridiculous to me.
Mr.Liebeler. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife, wasn't it?
Mr.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Davis. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there been very frequent—I mean, have you and your wife gone—I believe this was the first time?
Mr.Ray. This was the first time we ever.
Mr.Davis. Did they mention about this having happened fairly frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in Dallas?
Mr.Ray. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know, somewhere around New Year's—Christmas or New Year's; something like an annual affair for them to get together.
Mr.Davis. Did you know—were there any others in this group or did youhave any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go out of Russia?
Mr.Ray. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were Russian descent or else they were like—they had married a Russian over there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of them.
Mr.Liebeler. But you heard of no other examples where people had come out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct?
Mr.Ray. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You know or did you hear of it?
Mr.Ray. I did not hear.
Mr.Davis. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this proved to be?
Mr.Ray. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally gave up.
Mr.Davis. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence it has been made easier to communicate back and forth?
Mr.Ray. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a couple years before we even knew it.
Mr.Davis. How long has this been you received that information?
Mr.Ray. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by when my wife found out about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she died, do you know?
Mr.Ray. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you know, took place, in Arzamas.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this point, go right ahead.
Mr.Ray. I think we pretty well covered it. I hope you have.
Mr.Liebeler. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much.
Mr.Ray. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI, because of that. They might contact these people and find out more about it.
Mr.Liebeler. I think they have talked to most of them.
Mr.Ray. I am sure they have.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen? Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give?
Mr.Ballen. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin mentionedin the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact you this week to take your testimony.
The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.
Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did receive those, did you not?
Mr.Ballen. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your association with George De Mohrenschildt.
Will you state your full name?
Mr.Ballen. Samuel B. Ballen.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr.Ballen. 8715 Midway Road.
Mr.Liebeler. In Dallas?
Mr.Ballen. Dallas 9.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your employment, sir?
Mr.Ballen. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior officer in several corporations.
Mr.Liebeler. Included among those corporations is the High Plains Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.?
Mr.Ballen. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. You are an American citizen, sir?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you born here in the United States?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. In Dallas?
Mr.Ballen. In New York City.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr.Ballen. November 1950.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your age, sir?
Mr.Ballen. Forty-two.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly your educational background?
Mr.Ballen. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y., and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University, Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University, and Texas A&M.
Mr.Liebeler. What were the graduate courses in, generally?
Mr.Ballen. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum engineering.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr.Ballen. In some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy.
My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems, that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for him.
I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately 2 hours with him.
He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to the YMCA where he was residing.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision?
Mr.Ballen. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or the very early part of 1963.
I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and that was also true of Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you; do you know?
Mr.Ballen. He indicated to me that he was not employed.
Mr.Liebeler. He told you he was living at the YMCA in Dallas, is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. That's correct. He told me that his—I knew he had a wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you where his wife was staying?
Mr.Ballen. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have an idea from De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Ballen. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the Oak Cliff region.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you anything about his previous employment?
Mr.Ballen. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop some employment for him.
He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in the field of photography—no, some area in the field of reproduction, but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his lack of any usable training.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia?
Mr.Ballen. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ—or a newspaper in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a result of his interview with you?
Mr.Ballen. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting, trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what I could do.
Mr.Liebeler. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this to try to help him find a job?
Mr.Ballen. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any memory of my calling him in that regard.
Mr.Liebeler. The other individual being the man in charge of operations at Log Services?
Mr.Ballen. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this conclusion that you have just expressed?
Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to yourbest recollection, give the substance of the conversation that you and Oswald had that day?
Mr.Ballen. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector.
I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there.
I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be fairly realistic.
Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own institutions.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along that line?
Mr.Ballen. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R., and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press or official spokesmen.
He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government?
Mr.Ballen. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him, I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the course of your discussion?
Mr.Ballen. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would have—this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards President Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. You drew that inference simply as a general impression based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him?
Mr.Ballen. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you—and you can't pinpoint anything specifically that led you to that conclusion?
Mr.Ballen. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor Connally mentioned?
Mr.Ballen. No; it was not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular institution of the United States?
Mr.Ballen. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the United States. I cannotdocument that with any specific items which were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this had come out during that discussion.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it discussed in terms of the Negro race problem?
Mr.Ballen. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of compassion for mankind generally.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies which had as their end racial prejudice?
Mr.Ballen. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced by racist or hate propaganda?
Mr.Ballen. You will have to make your question more specific.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them?
Mr.Ballen. I think I understand your question, and there would have been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular organization.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as heck to gain employment.
I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of training you have, if you get employment."
And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work he did in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about camera and reproduction equipment.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Mr.Ballen. He did say that the economics there were awfully tight.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as to what his income was?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this—his job?
Mr.Ballen. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say about that?
Mr.Ballen. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out; and I got out."
I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she was reporting to usthat on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people and mingle and otherwise.
George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently moved into Dallas from afar.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember with any great specificity the things that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such an independent fellow?
Mr.Ballen. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have, a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within the Soviet Union in any way?
Mr.Ballen. I had the impression that he had done considerable traveling there.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you get that information or impression?
Mr.Ballen. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just incredibly boring and dismal.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring or dismal in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to impose on him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you question him—did you have questions in your own mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling?
Mr.Ballen. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he did, engender a certain amount of sympathy.
In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of money to do it.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion?
Mr.Ballen. No; I am sorry. I don't know more specifically.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr.Ballen. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit; "Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique.
Mr.Liebeler. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and understanding of that type of machinery?
Mr.Ballen. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion concerning his wife, Marina?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever meet Marina?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you speak Russian?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his return to the United States?
Mr.Ballen. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to renounce his citizenship?
Mr.Ballen. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a job.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was employed and lived in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and what I have read in the newspaper.
Mr.Liebeler. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was employed in the city of Minsk?
Mr.Ballen. That is correct. I would have thought that he would have—my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. No; I didn't ask him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his wife when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as his return to the United States is concerned, you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any resentment?
Mr.Ballen. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human being.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating to possible resentment of the United States?
Mr.Ballen. No; I do not.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as Russia?
Mr.Ballen. No; I wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no.
Mr.Liebeler. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians who had delayed his return, is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. Well, it was a matter of working then through these bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the same?
Mr.Ballen. I would say about equal.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion with Oswald concerning politics?
Mr.Ballen. Not in addition to what I have already alluded to, parenthetically.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and that sort of thing?
Mr.Ballen. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate conclusion I came to was that he left—that he lacked educational training.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper in New Orleans?
Mr.Ballen. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans, and the—in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you about his activities in New Orleans?
Mr.Ballen. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans, and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or any part of the political spectrum.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not know that he was a professed Marxist?
Mr.Ballen. He may have—I think I had the feeling that he, to the extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and was a critic of societies along Marxist lines.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about religion?
Mr.Ballen. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview with him, made statements to reenforce that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about Oswald before you actually met Oswald?
Mr.Ballen. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir. Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred, and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow with no hatred.
Mr.Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no hatred of anything?
Mr.Ballen. That is what—De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions connected with it.
Mr.Liebeler. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind when you met and talked to Oswald?
Mr.Ballen. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent; yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that he would have had a little disdain for both sides.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not get the impression, however, that he was emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two sides? Would that be a fair statement?
Mr.Ballen. Definitely.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda that might be disseminated in the country?
Mr.Ballen. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United States, including our Government.
Mr.Liebeler. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced by propaganda of this sort?
Mr.Ballen. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn'tappear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference, to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way, and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to involve him in my firm, which means a team operation.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence?
Mr.Ballen. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It was this quality—these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable?
Mr.Ballen. Appeared to be just a little too much a hard head.
Mr.Liebeler. What makes you say that, Mr. Ballen?
Mr.Ballen. Too much a hard head?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes, sir; what do you mean by that?
Mr.Ballen. I—just his general conduct, his general responses, general bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively, a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally ill, I didn't come away with that feeling.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at self-improvement or self-education that you could give us?
Mr.Ballen. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership, literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian literature?
Mr.Ballen. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology.
Mr.Liebeler. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he understood them to be Marxian leanings?
Mr.Ballen. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity to go into that with him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald?
Mr.Ballen. Was that the FBI or the Secret Service?
Mr.Liebeler. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents Kesler and Mitchell.
Mr.Ballen. Yes; I recall being interviewed, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings?
Mr.Ballen. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what your answer was?
Mr.Ballen. No, sir; I don't remember what my answer was.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia?
Mr.Ballen. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the newspapers—all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December.
Mr.Liebeler. You are not conscious of any difference in those two answers?
Mr.Ballen. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the same as my answer here today.
Mr.Liebeler. Assuming that was your answer that day?
Mr.Ballen. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my best memory and best recollection at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know anything about the relationship between Oswald and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Ballen. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were leaving for Haiti.
George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at the wall and fighting each other."
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was an attempt made on the life of General Walker?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss that with George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Ballen. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed it with him in anygreat——
Mr.Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in connection with the attempt on Walker's life?
Mr.Ballen. None whatsoever. I don't think he ever mentioned it to me.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no recollection that he did?
Mr.Ballen. I do not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention to you that Oswald owned a rifle?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind in that conversation?
Mr.Ballen. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Was the time that Oswald came to your office the first time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that?
Mr.Ballen. If I had met him previously, it would have been on a Sunday morning in the De Mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of about 40 minutes, but I am about satisfied, in talking to other people, that the individual I met on that Sunday morning was not Oswald, but some other stray dog.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember who this other stray dog was?
Mr.Ballen. I don't know his name. This was someone who had worked his way here either from Hungary or Bulgaria.
Mr.Liebeler. And subsequently disappeared from the scene?
Mr.Ballen. I don't know his name. This was one of the individuals De Mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of 4 or 5 or 6 weeks.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Ballen. When I first heard of Oswald's arrest, I didn't realize that this was the chap I had met. It only dawned upon me about 2 or 3 hours later that this was the chap I met.
I told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake, that I didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and she said, what do you mean? She said they picked him up and got the gun. I said Oswald wasn't that sort of guy. I told my wife that if you lined up 50 individuals, the oneperson who would stand out as being suspicious or strange would be Lee Harvey Oswald, but I was very surprised when Oswald was arrested.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any further conversations along that line with your wife?
Mr.Ballen. Well, as this story developed day by day, we would naturally discuss it.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you still have the same view that you expressed to your wife when you first learned of the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. I want to read the report that I assume the Warren Commission will ultimately publish. The circumstantial evidence as reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and I am looking forward to seeing the published report.
Mr.Liebeler. It would certainly be fair to say, however, would it not, Mr. Ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had any reason to believe that Oswald was capable or would be inclined to commit an act of this sort, is that correct?
Mr.Ballen. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of any contact between Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mr.Ballen. None whatsoever.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first meet George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Ballen. Approximately 1955, maybe 1954.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you had any conversation with De Mohrenschildt since this assassination?
Mr.Ballen. Only through the mails.
Mr.Liebeler. You have corresponded with him since the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you write about the assassination?
Mr.Ballen. Only in a very guarded way, because I understood that mails in Haiti are subject to scrutiny, and I didn't know what his environment was down there, so I only corresponded with him in a very guarded way.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me in general what you wrote to him?
Mr.Ballen. I made no reference to the assassination directly. I said in one letter that I wanted to hear from him. I was—I wanted to know that he was okay. I didn't use those words in the letter, but he understood what I was asking him.
And I said it was a shame that he had to leave Dallas, that if he and Jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened, because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed mind out into the open air.
And I received one reply back from George's wife, and she thanked me for what she thought were kind sentiments.
Subsequently he chided me a little bit, and I again wrote to him and let him know I wondered how he was getting along.
And he wrote back and said, "I am fearful about you, all kinds of race riots and assassinations in Dallas, but how are you getting along? Let us hear from you."
Subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were guests in my house for 2 weeks, and so I learned from them about George and his wife, and I am about due another letter in the next week or so.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you keep copies of the letters you wrote to him?