Mr.Glover. With her husband. That was during the later period.
Mr.Jenner. She was married and lived somewhere else in this country?
Mr.Glover. All I know is that daughter and husband came from a Mexican trip and were going to Alaska.
And she had this one daughter who she talked very much about, how she had brought her up and so forth, and she seemed to have a desire to sort of help people out and sort of arrange their affairs.
She tried one time to give me advice on my family situation, at which time, as one would say, I told her off, told her that I had my own ideas about what I wanted to do about the situation and was not interested in hers at all. But that is the most outstanding impression I have of her, always trying to do something for someone, arrange things in some way, sort of an overdeveloped mother tendency, to me.
Mr.Jenner. Describe the physical characteristics of her, please.
Mr.Glover. Physically, I am depending somewhat on some pictures she showed. According to her, when she showed pictures in the album.
Mr.Jenner. I don't mean—are you relating to the pictures to describe Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Glover. No; well, I will just leave that out, if you prefer.
Mr.Jenner. Describe the physical characteristics of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt as you knew her, saw her.
Mr.Glover. Well, she was a person who looked in fairly good physical shape.
Mr.Jenner. About how old?
Mr.Glover. She looked like she was about 40 years old. She was accumulating fat on her body which was very noticeable. We played tennis all the time, and she looked like someone fortyish and was beginning to get quite a lot of fat.
Mr.Jenner. What about coloration?
Mr.Glover. Color of hair was brown, medium brown. I don't remember people's eyes very well. It sort of seems to me like they were blue. I am not sure. Her height was medium height.
Mr.Jenner. Medium for a woman and medium for a man differ—what would you say, five two, or five three or five five?
Mr.Glover. I am not very conscious. I would say five five or five six, maybe.
Mr.Jenner. Miss Reporter, would you please stand and tell us how tall you are?
TheReporter. I am five two and a half in my stocking feet and about five five with heels.
Mr.Jenner. Having observed the reporter, what is your present recollection about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's height. Is she taller or shorter?
Mr.Glover. I would say her height without her heels or anything was at least as tall as she is standing now, would be five five or five six which I said, or possibly taller than that. I am not very sure.
Mr.Jenner. But she was inclined to be on the heavy side?
Mr.Glover. Slightly. She was getting heavy.
Mr.Jenner. What would you say she weighed, offhand?
Mr.Glover. She talked about that when we were playing tennis. I can't remember. I really don't know. Maybe, I would say, 110 to 120, or so.
Mr.Jenner. She was five five and she weighed 110 pounds? She would be awfully thin.
Mr.Glover. Well, she must have weighed more than that. I am not very conscious about that.
(Comments off the record.)
Mr.Glover. Maybe she would be 130 or so. Maybe she weighed a little bit more than that.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt speak to you of his background?
Mr.Glover. He spoke somewhat of it. I didn't get a very clear picture of the exact tracings of his background. I got a picture of him having been born in Sweden. He said he came from Sweden. And having lived in Russia for a short time, and then having left there. And the next thing I remember him saying was that he fought with the Polish National Army sometime in the Second World War, and had left the army. Now I am not quite sure when that was, when the army was disbanded, when Hitler invaded, or some other time. I am not sure. It must have been then, I guess, but that is the hazy impression I have of that part of it.
Mr.Jenner. At the time of the invasion of Poland by Hitler, which was roughly September of 1939, De Mohrenschildt then left Poland?
Mr.Glover. Well, he left the Polish Army at the same time. I really don't know for sure when that was. I didn't think very much about it.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say he came directly to this country at that time?
Mr.Glover. I do not have any impression of him saying he came directly here, no. The next thing I remember about his telling his background was that he came here to this country.
Mr.Jenner. Here in Texas?
Mr.Glover. First he came to New York, according to his story. And I remember one comment he made about that. He was wined and dined and passed around to people who he knew in some way, and this was fine, but when he came to find a job, he had a lot of trouble. And the next period I remember is that he was at the University of Texas, and I assume he was going to school and got a degree in petroleum engineering.
Mr.Jenner. But you are not so sure about that? You have the impression that he was a person who had the benefit of higher education?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I assumed that he had had at least some school knowledge of the subject of petroleum engineering or petroleum in general.
Mr.Jenner. He did say that he attended the university in this State?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he said he attended the University of Texas, I am quite sure. At least I got that impression. I am not sure of his exact words. He talked about being a student, so I guess I just assumed that. I don't know whether he said specifically he attended as a full-time student.
Mr.Jenner. Describe George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Glover. He is a heavy set rather Mr. Atlas type.
Mr.Jenner. Atlas or Adonis?
Mr.Glover. I notice that he is still around, Mr. Atlas. Very healthy looking specimen. Tall and heavy set. Little bit clumsy in his movements.
Mr.Jenner. A big man, in other words?
Mr.Glover. Big man, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And handsome?
Mr.Glover. Well, that is a matter of what you call handsome.
Mr.Jenner. You described him in that respect.
Mr.Glover. Well, I think he was a, he might be called handsome by somebody. I would call him a good heavy-looking physical specimen.
Mr.Jenner. Color of hair?
Mr.Glover. Hair was some kind of brown.
Mr.Jenner. Had a good crop of hair?
Mr.Glover. Yes; a lot of curly, wavy hair.
Mr.Jenner. What about his personality?
Mr.Glover. He was a very great mixture of things.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about it.
Mr.Glover. He was a very cynical sort of person. He was a Bohemian sort of person.
Mr.Jenner. What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, but what do you mean by "Bohemian type of person"?
Mr.Glover. I mean he lived the kind of life where he went the way hewanted to go and he did what he wanted to do and he didn't care very much about what anyone said.
He wanted to play tennis, morning, noon and night. He wanted to dress the way he wanted to. He was not very conforming in his physical dress or in his appearance or anything else. But the main thing that impressed me most about him was his immaturity. He acted like a fellow who is in his teens, who was reacting against everything in the world and never settled down, and acted like this minor revolution which occurs in most people, of being against authority and so forth, and wanted to travel over the world and do things himself. He is sort of a revolution inside of him. It never stops. He was sort of a rebel.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say he really had somewhat adolescent tendencies and had never grown up?
Mr.Glover. I would say that he was very much so; yes.
Mr.Jenner. In your time and my time, we talked about "Joe College." Is that expression familiar to you?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was he that kind of a person, breezy?
Mr.Glover. Yes; very much so. Very outspoken. His language sometimes wasn't very nice. He said anything he wanted to say.
Mr.Jenner. Was he, in his conversation, somewhat of a braggart?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he was.
Mr.Jenner. Talked about himself a great deal and what his accomplishments were and so forth?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he did. He was somewhat of a braggart. He did, like many, many people, he embroidered things. I had the feeling one could never place full stock in exactly all the things he said. He was like a lot of people, he embroidered things. Not so much a braggart exactly as just one who just talked a lot about everything. I think, yes; he was sort of a braggart in a way.
Mr.Jenner. What would you say were his attitudes and his relationships, first, with the male sex, and second with the ladies?
Mr.Glover. Female sex?
Mr.Jenner. Overall attitude.
Mr.Glover. His overall attitude, one of his preoccupations was sex, seemingly, the female sex. He used to talk about every female he saw go by. He would ride along in his car and blow the horn at any female he saw going down the street. And his attitude toward males, as far as I know, there was no particular, nothing particular to be said on that subject.
Mr.Jenner. But he showed considerable interest in ladies?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he showed a very, very great interest in them, sort of a preoccupation thing with him.
Mr.Jenner. Did he seem to ingratiate himself with ladies when he was in their presence?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he was even somewhat rougher than that. He would act very, very aggressive toward them, very aggressive toward them. I don't know whether his bite was as bad as his bark. I never saw any evidence of it, but he was very, very rough and aggressive with people.
Mr.Jenner. Would you give me your present overall impression of George De Mohrenschildt insofar as character and integrity are concerned?
Mr.Glover. Well, he was a man who obviously very much embroidered things he said. And also from his political opinions, which he gave out from time to time, didn't show very clearly where he stood.
Mr.Jenner. Now would you give the circumstances and your—first give me your overall impression as to his political views. And I mean political in the sense of, first, I mean political in the sense of the views he entertained with respect to governments in general, and in particular, I mean as against any political party.
Mr.Glover. Well, he said—the main thing there is his cynical attitude towards things. I don't think he respected any kind of authority. I think that he is sort of apolitical. He sort of resented having to conform very much. But his political views, as far as our system versus communism, forinstance, it wasn't very clear how he stood. He made remarks which suggested that he didn't like the way the Communists were treated. Very pointed remarks, sometimes.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't like the way the Communists were treated?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he didn't like the treatment that some Communists were given. I can give you an example.
Mr.Jenner. You mean in this country or in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Glover. Well, I was thinking of outside this country.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Glover. So I would say that the wholequestion——
Mr.Jenner. What did he say in that respect which gave you that impression?
Mr.Glover. Well, I remember that at the time of Castro and Cuba, when the incident occurred of removing the Russianmissiles——
Mr.Jenner. Missile sites?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he was very much upset about this, and he was very angry at Kennedy for doing what he did.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say, as best you can give us in substance? I know you can't remember the words, but in substance, what he said.
Mr.Glover. Well, the substance of what he said, he didn't like what Kennedy was doing at all. And the reason he gave, as far as I can remember, was the possible involvement in a nuclear war.
Mr.Jenner. You seek to imply that De Mohrenschildt was opposed to what Kennedy was doing, not because of dislike for Castro, but rather that he feared we would be, those actions might involve us in a nuclear war?
Mr.Glover. Well, in this particular point, yes. He also remarked, which shows that he had sympathy with Castro—it is not possible for me to separate those exactly, but in this particular thing, I remember one time being very, very excited about the missile business in Cuba, and this business came up that that would lead us into a nuclear war. In other words, he was suggesting that he was sympathetic with Castro, at least I thought so—well, Castro is all right, he can't do any harm, he is just a little guy, and this is the general impression I got. Again, those may not be the exact expressions that he may have used.
Mr.Jenner. Would you give me an example that he was sympathetic with what Castro represented?
Mr.Glover. He certainly never, in my acquaintance with him, tried to make out a case for the Communist system against our system. It was just sort of his shouting off about this thing I just described. And also I remember one very distinctly, which I told the FBI. One time there was a cartoon in the newspaper which pictured Khrushchev with the face of a pig, a caricature, and George was very, very indignant about them doing that. And I said to George, well, he does look like a pig. And after all, the caricature has been around since the days of the famousFrenchman——
Mr.Jenner. Lautrec?
Mr.Glover. No; it isn't Lautrec. It's Daumier. I don't know, but that is what I was thinking, and he does look like one. And so he showed on this point that he resented something very much about this.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever get into any political discussions with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Glover. There is not very much I remember, because as I say, there was never any real discussion about such issues, that amounted to anything, but there were occasions when he seemed to agree to what I consider a reasonable view.
For instance, things in Russia at the present time. I recall one instance once before that there was a discussion—whether it came from a remark of a public figure in the press or somebody else who may have been present, but there was a discussion about the fact that under the Khrushchev regime things had loosened up somewhat in Russia. Whoever was responsible for it, I think it was a public figure at the time who was talking, said that it was very true, things had loosened up in Russia, but how does the Russian feel about this. The answer was that the Russians didn't feel that it is necessarily going to stay that way very long. I remember talking about this in the presence of George and he seemed to be quite agreeable on this idea.
Mr.Jenner. When is the last time you saw De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Glover. I saw him sometime in the early part of May, I believe. I moved into my house at 5723 Southwestern about the 20th of April, and I had taken all his furniture which he had, looking for a place to store, and we three fellows were needing furniture, because I sent all my furniture to my former wife, all the good furniture, so he was going to let us use the furniture for as long as we wanted, to save him storage fees and help us out. We moved it over, and then he finally, on leaving to go to Haiti, before he was going, he dropped by the house sometime in the day he departed, I think it was in the last few days of May, first week ortwo——
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mr.Glover. 1963, right. He came by the house looking for something which had been stored in some of the boxes, and they were loaded with their trailer and cargo to load on the boat in Florida where they going to take off from. They were sending goods by boat and flying themselves.
Mr.Jenner. That's the last time you have seen him?
Mr.Glover. That is the last time I have seen him.
Mr.Jenner. Have you heard from him at any time?
Mr.Glover. Have I heard from him?
Mr.Jenner. What has been the extent of that contact, first?
Mr.Glover. Well, he wrote to me and his wife wrote to me telling about how things were going in Haiti, and I have replied very little to him. I have replied, I don't know how many times, maybe once when they first went down there, and I replied after January 1, when I moved. I shipped most of his furniture to a storage, keeping some back that I can still use in the new house, and I wrote to him telling him, I told him I didn't need the furniture, and I haven't corresponded with him very much.
Mr.Jenner. In that correspondence he—has he given you any information as to what they are doing in Haiti? Did you have any information before they left for Haiti as to what they were, or thought they were, going to do?
Mr.Glover. Yes. I have the information from talking very much about his Haiti venture, and the impression I got was somewhat hazy, but the first part was that he was going to be doing a geological survey for chemicals and minerals.
Mr.Jenner. For what?
Mr.Glover. Minerals of economic value.
Mr.Jenner. Did he indicate the group or company for which he was to do this work, or was it independent?
Mr.Glover. I had the impression that he was the one who was running the show himself, but he was associated with some other businessman that was connected with it, that besides this initial venture of doing this chemical survey, they were also going to do other things and set up business ventures. That is what the other part involved, and I had the impression that this all tied together.
Mr.Jenner. This was in the nature, as near as you can recall, of a joint venture of some kind?
Mr.Glover. Yes; except he gave me the impression that he was really running the show, and I also had the impression, which he didn't emphasize, but that someone else was providing the money if there was any money needed.
Mr.Jenner. Give us your knowledge and also your impression of the De Mohrenschildt's financial status when they resided here in Dallas?
Mr.Glover. I had the impression that they didn't have very much money, because he had been away, and the time he came back, the oil consulting business had gone down pretty much. This was about the time when the companies were reorganizing and they were tightening their belts, and it just wasn't such good times, and he apparently had trouble in getting any oil consultant jobs. This was the impression I got from him and he didn't do very much, except I got the impression that he might have owned some leases, andhe——
Mr.Jenner. Oil leases?
Mr.Glover. Oil leases. And he talked about one particular one where there was litigation about it. And I got the impression that he didn't have verymuch money, except possibly some money coming in from the oil leases and they didn't have lots of food. They didn't have anything but very simple food, simple clothes. They hadn't bought anything new. They had clothes from time before, which were quite expensive, but they did, however, have a nice car. But they didn't spend a lot of money and didn't seem to have a lot.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say they attempted to live frugally?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I would say they attempted to live frugally.
Mr.Jenner. Speaking there about attire, in this connection, as evidence of their financial status or condition, do you recall mentioning to the FBI their tennis clothing and from time to time other clothing was quite informal, even to the extent of not being appropriate?
Mr.Glover. Well, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt used to wear a bathing suit all the time when she was playing tennis, one piece bathing suit, in which the lower half was sort of Bikini like. And George just wore a pair of shorts. That is accepted attire for a man tennis player. We used to go to the Dallas Athletic Country Club east of the city to play, sometimes, because Sam Ballen had a membership, and she was told it is against the rules to appear on the courts with a bathing suit.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about Sam Ballen. Who is he?
Mr.Glover. Sam Ballen, I met him in the way I told you, and he told me that he had been in the stock market business in New York, and came here to organize a company which deals in cataloging, and has a library for oil well logs. These are the records of the physical measurements made in the oil well, and apparently was very successful in doing this. I have known him for the past 2 years—I met him actually when I told you; at Lauriston Marshall's house sometime in 1962, I guess.
Mr.Jenner. Is Ballen a friend of Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Glover. Ballen is a friend of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. Was it your impression that they were closely acquainted?
Mr.Glover. Fairly well, yes; closely acquainted.
Mr.Jenner. Did you play tennis together with Mr. Ballen and the De Mohrenschildts on more than one occasion? Did you continue to have this acquaintanceship subsequent to that first occasion about which you have testified?
Mr.Glover. Very much so; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were there occasions thereafter—social events, parties, visits in the home, and what not, that Sam Ballen participated?
Mr.Glover. Yes; there were occasions, although the main association was that we played tennis together. We made a very good team. We have about the same degree of skill at it; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Does he reside here in Dallas?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he does.
Mr.Jenner. He still stays—lives here?
Mr.Glover. As far as I know.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know of a company with which he is associated?
Mr.Glover. I do not know the name offhand.
Mr.Jenner. And that his name is spelled B-a-l-l-e-n, and his first name is Samuel?
Mr.Glover. I just call him Sam. I don't know whether his name is Samuel or not.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know anything about the De Mohrenschildts' views toward religion?
Mr.Glover. They are very much against religion, I am quite sure. They don't think very much of organized religion at all.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any information more definite than that? Are they atheistic, are they just—don't have any feeling one way or the other?
Mr.Glover. Be hard for me to say. I would think probably that atheistic would be more the correct term, but I don't recall specific remarks that they made.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any impression, and do you now, as to any political affiliation of the De Mohrenschildts together or separate?
Mr.Glover. Any kind of affiliation?
Mr.Jenner. Political or otherwise.
Mr.Glover. Political or otherwise. Well, business, he belongs to the Petroleum Club. He talks about being down there. And I don't know of any other organizations.
Mr.Jenner.Well——
Mr.Glover. Well, cystic fibrosis, they are very active in that, because of his son.
Mr.Jenner. That is a charity organization?
Mr.Glover. A charity organization. And they were very active in this, because the wife, although it was not her son involved, was very, very active in that and went from door to door collecting, trying to get money for this purpose. I don't know of any other organizations. I remember one time being invited to some kind of charity program over at the—I don't know how to call it any more, but there is a center for retarded children over in the Cedar Springs area, which it seems that a Mexican-American organization was sponsoring, and he invited me to go to that. I don't know if they were members or not. I think that was sort of a Mexican-American, I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have the impression they ever belonged to any political organizations?
Mr.Glover. No; I did not have any impression that he belonged to any.
Mr.Jenner. Did they express what their politics were? That is, say, as between being Republican or Democrat?
Mr.Glover. I don't recall anything very strong on that subject.
Mr.Jenner. Did you, during your time here in Dallas, become acquainted with Marina and Lee Oswald?
Mr.Glover. I did.
Mr.Jenner. Would you state when it was that you first became acquainted with either or both of them.
Mr.Glover. I am not able to give a specific time. I met Marina first at the home of George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. All right, give me the circumstances and when that occurred and what led up to it, and what you knew in advance before the meeting was held, about that? That is, whether this came all of a sudden without any advance notice, or whether there had been some discussion with the De Mohrenschildts prior to that time. Just tell me the whole circumstances leading up to the moment you met Marina.
Mr.Glover. I am not able to state a specific time, but of course it was somewhere, I am not really able to say whether it was sometime in December, or in January, or sometime in that time, or in the first part.
Mr.Jenner. What year?
Mr.Glover. This would be the year 1962–63.
Mr.Jenner. Now would you fix it with respect to when your wife and you separated. Was that in December of 1962, did you say?
Mr.Glover. No, we separated before September 1, 1962. I am not able to say when she (Marina) came to the De Mohrenschildts. Marina came to the De Mohrenschildts several times. The first time I met her and subsequent times, she was also there.
Mr.Jenner. Had there been—has there been any conversation about the Oswalds with you or in your presence prior to the time that you met Marina?
Mr.Glover. Well, I am not sure about this, but I would think, yes; they had mentioned her.
Mr.Jenner. The De Mohrenschildts had mentioned her?
Mr.Glover. Had mentioned her and her husband and their situation, but I really do not know a hundred percent that they mentioned it before I came over there. I rather think they mentioned she was coming there previous to my meeting her.
Mr.Jenner. What did they say about her in advance of the meeting?
Mr.Glover. Well, they told about, this is as far as I remember, that they told about her coming over here with Oswald and, as far as I remember the impression I got from De Mohrenschildt—it might not have been entirely from him, it may have come later—Oswald had gone to Russia to live and had become a citizen. That is the impression I got. And that he had decided he didn't like Russia and he came back here and brought his Russian-born wife with him,and were living in Fort Worth, and they were having trouble getting along, the Oswalds were.
Mr.Jenner. Getting along with each other?
Mr.Glover. Getting along with each other.
Mr.Jenner. You remember that distinctly?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I remember that very distinctly, because they were trying to find a place for Marina to stay.
Mr.Jenner. You learned all this through conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Glover. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And either or both of them told you that the Oswalds were not getting along?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that they were seeking what for them?
Mr.Glover. They were seeking a place particularly for Marina to stay. She had a baby. And seeking a place for her to stay where she could just get a living, because apparently her husband didn't get along with her, Lee Oswald didn't get along, and I am not sure whether he had lost his job or something. It was suggested it was financial difficulties, the main thing, they didn't get along, and were trying to find a place for her where she could live.
Mr.Jenner. Did either of the De Mohrenschildts speak Russian?
Mr.Glover. So far as I know, both of them spoke Russian.
Mr.Jenner. In your presence?
Mr.Glover. Yes; spoke Russian, what I assumed to be Russian.
Mr.Jenner. What is your command, if any, of the Russian language?
Mr.Glover. Well, I know "Da," but I know very little about it. I have started to study Russian in connection with scientific work, because it is very valuable to be able to speak Russian, and I have always wanted to learn to speak Russian, but somehow I never got to do this. It is very slight, actually, and they both, as far as I know, spoke Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Now tell us what the occasion was, how it came about that you met Marina on this first occasion?
Mr.Glover. Well, I am not sure again as to all the details, but I believe that it was this way. That they told about her and that, I came over there one night when she was there. I might have been invited to dinner when she was there, or I might have just come over when she was there, and they called me during the day and said, "Glover, come over and meet this woman."
Mr.Jenner. Your recollection is that either George or Jeanne called you and asked you to come over to their home to meet Marina?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I am quite sure that he invited me to come over there, because that is usually the way. They were always inviting me to come over.
Mr.Jenner. And your impression, this was an evening or during the daytime?
Mr.Glover. Well, I couldn't be sure, because she would sometimes come and stay for a day. It might be in the evening or it might have been on a weekend during the daytime. My impression was, it was in the evening.
Mr.Jenner. But your impression also was that this time that she had been invited by them on occasions prior to this particular one?
Mr.Glover. I am not sure whether they had invited her prior or not.
Mr.Jenner. I'm just asking you what your impression was at that time.
Mr.Glover. At that time that I first saw her?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; as to whether she had been there to visit the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Glover. My impression was that she probably had, but I really couldn't be sure about that.
Mr.Jenner. Anything said that evening indicating how she had reached the De Mohrenschildt's home?
Mr.Glover. You mean just physically brought there?
Mr.Jenner. Had they, the De Mohrenschildts gone to pick her up? Had she gotten there by bus herself? Had she gotten a cab, or how did she get there?
Mr.Glover. I don't remember specifically how she had been brought there.
Mr.Jenner. That subject was not raised so as to give you the impression one way or the other, is that correct?
Mr.Glover. Well, since she didn't have any means of going herself, I am sure, whether she came by bus or whether she was brought by them, I had the impression that she was living in Fort Worth at the time, and I know she was, because at one time, either this time or another time, I volunteered, since I had a car, to take her down to the bus station with the De Mohrenschildts to take her on her way back to Fort Worth, and the bus wasn't leaving right away, and there was a long wait, so we took her over to Fort Worth. But I am not sure whether that was this time or another time.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had the impression then in that connection that there were occasions when she had come or gone back by way of bus, or that she was capable of doing so?
Mr.Glover. That she was capable, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she knew enough about bus travel between Fort Worth and Dallas and the location of the De Mohrenschildt home so that she, unaccompanied by someone, could travel back and forth?
Mr.Glover. Well, at least go to the Fort Worth bus. I'm not sure about whether they would pick her up or what. That is the impression I got from the fact we took her to the bus station and she was supposed to leave by bus.
Mr.Jenner. Who was present? Yourself, Marina, and the two De Mohrenschildts on this occasion?
Mr.Glover. I believe that is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Anybody else that you can recall?
Mr.Glover. I do not believe so, but I could not be a hundred percent sure. I believe that is the way it was.
Mr.Jenner. Have the De Mohrenschildts said anything to you about how they had become acquainted with the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. They had not said anything specifically, but again, I had the impression that because they were Russian speaking and knew some of the other people around the area who were Russian speaking, they learned from people they knew in Fort Worth of this Russian girl who was here in this country.
Mr.Jenner. What, if anything, did they say about their interest in her beyond, let's say, pure curiosity?
Mr.Glover. That is really the extent of what they ever said, that they were curious, and also trying to help her out. This was right in character with Jeanne, who was always trying to help people out in such situations.
Mr.Jenner. Was she a generous person in that respect?
Mr.Glover. I think you would call it generous although you have to realize this is a double-edged sword. People sometimes do things in order to control things and arrange things, and other times they do things out of the goodness of their heart, and I think it was one of the facts, she liked to help people out, and arrange things. Maybe this is my male bias coming into it.
Mr.Jenner. But in any event, they were, on the surface at least, cordial, and seeking to help her?
Mr.Glover. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you detect that that was an active and not merely a passive effort on their part?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I felt it was an active thing.
Mr.Jenner. They were pursuing it with some vigor?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. Let's take George in particular. Was it characteristic of him? Was he a generous man and wanted to help others?
Mr.Glover. Much less so, I would say, than Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I rather would attribute it to her. Maybe it is my male bias coming out, blaming it on Jeanne for being so interested in somebody else, but he went along with this too, and there were several other people I met there who they were trying to be good to. I think they were trying to do this to help. And shortly after my former wife left and I was by myself, I think they, in their relation to me, were trying to do something to help me out.
Mr.Jenner. You met her on this occasion. How many additional occasions were there?
Mr.Glover. I can't be sure of the number of occasions, because she came several times to the De Mohrenschildt house.
Mr.Jenner. Alone?
Mr.Glover. Yes; she came several times alone, and I would say two or three times I saw her there.
Mr.Jenner. And each occasion you saw her on these two or three or even more occasions, she was always alone in the sense that she was not accompanied on any of those occasions by Lee Oswald?
Mr.Glover. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mr.Glover. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. What was the length of this visit that you had on the first occasion?
Mr.Glover. I am not really sure of the time, but the impression I had, it was in the evening, and again I am not sure which one of the times, but the impression I had, it was in the evening that I was over there, either to eat, and she left quite early in the evening. Well, we took, maybe, or she was taken by them, but one time she left around 9 o'clock or something like this, to get a bus to Fort Worth. Whether this was the first time, I really can't be sure.
Mr.Jenner. Was it your impression she and her husband were living together at that time?
Mr.Glover. Yes; it was my impression. I am not really sure now whether anything was said to the contrary on that or not. My impression was that she was living with her husband on this first occasion, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did any occasion arise when you were advised or had the impression that she was not then at that period of time living with her husband?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I think this is subsequent to this first time I met her. Whatever those occasions were, they had arranged for her to stay with someone here in the Dallas area.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know the name?
Mr.Glover. I do not remember the name of the people, but they had arranged for her to stay here, and she had stayed for, as I recall, a fairly short time, that the arrangement did not work out.
Mr.Jenner. Does the name Elena Hall trigger your recollection?
Mr.Glover. Elena Hall?
Mr.Jenner. H-a-l-l?
Mr.Glover. I don't recall ever having heard that name.
Mr.Jenner. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r?
Mr.Glover. I couldn't be very sure about that. They might have mentioned a name, but I do not recall. They mentioned the names of quite a number of people to me, and I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have of Marina on this first occasion?
Mr.Glover. Well, my first impression was she was sort of an innocent person caught up in the situation. Although I have very little to go on, and I could not communicate with her, only through the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. Did she speak any English on that occasion?
Mr.Glover. She spoke practically none. No English. She understood a little bit that people said in English.
Mr.Jenner. But she did not speak it?
Mr.Glover. She couldn't speak English. It was very difficult for me to get any real good impression from her.
Mr.Jenner. And she was quite young?
Mr.Glover. Yes; she was quite young.
Mr.Jenner. Let's say this is February of 1963, did you say that was, or March?
Mr.Glover. This was sometime in the first part of the year.
Mr.Jenner. Of 1963?
Mr.Glover. Yes; it was probably in January. That would be my best recollection. It was during that time. It might have been later than that. I am hazy. The only thing I have to go by is, I learned later after discussion of the visit of Oswald and his wife to our house, I learned pretty much from the conversation that that meeting took place in the latter part of February.
Now I did not recall, I just talked with the other people who lived in the house, and we figured it must have been about that time. And other people present recalled this, so this is how I figured the whole business. And I know I met Marina previous to that time.
I know I was away for a week in February when I went on a business trip to Pennsylvania, and so I assume it was somewhere in January, but I really do not remember.
Again, if I had to recall those events, I might be able to. I can remember some of the events, but I am not very sure about it.
Mr.Jenner. When next did you meet Marina after this occasion?
Mr.Glover. Well, again, I am not sure at all about those occasions. She would come and stay at the house, and if I came in from playing tennis with George, she might have been there. This may have happened two or three times.
Mr.Jenner. There came an occasion, did there not, in which you met Lee Oswald?
Mr.Glover. Yes; when I met Lee Oswald the first time, was at their house.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina accompany the De Mohrenschildts on that occasion?
Mr.Glover. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. When was that and how did that arise, and what was the circumstance?
Mr.Glover. The only thing I can remember about this, is again to fix this with respect to the other meeting when he and his wife, Oswald and his wife, came to my house, and that was apparently in late February, so it must have been previous to that.
Mr.Jenner. Does the date February 22, 1963, refresh your recollection as to the occasion they came to your home?
Mr.Glover. Well, I think I remember in the conversation with the FBI they mentioned a date about Washington's Birthday.
Mr.Jenner. It is not Lincoln's?
Mr.Glover. I think it was Washington's Birthday, but I don't remember dates, so I had no actual recollection of the specific date.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; that is Washington's Birthday. [Checking calendar.]
Mr.Glover. The only thing I have a hazy recollection about, that it was on a Tuesday or Wednesday of the week.
Mr.Jenner. Washington's Birthday in 1963, was on a Friday.
Mr.Glover. Maybe it was. My recollection isn't worth much on this.
Mr.Jenner. It was the latter part of February, in any event, of 1963?
Mr.Glover. The meeting at which I first met Oswald was just previous to the meeting where I met Oswald and his wife the second time.
Mr.Jenner. There were two occasions when you met Oswald and his wife?
Mr.Glover. That's right. The first one was at the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, we have one meeting described which you set in the early part of the year, Marina alone. That is, she was unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. There might have been some additional occasions when you saw her at the De Mohrenschildts prior to your having met Lee Oswald?
Mr.Glover. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now what was the circumstance under which you had your first meeting or first occasion that you met Lee Oswald?
Mr.Glover. On that occasion the De Mohrenschildts invited the two Oswalds and invited quite a number of other people—I was included—to their house.
Mr.Jenner. About when was this?
Mr.Glover. Well, this was just previous to the time that Oswald and his wife came to my house, so I would say it was just a few days or a week before that.
Mr.Jenner. At the De Mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion?
Mr.Glover. This is where I have difficulty in recollection. Several times the De Mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner, when he had informal dinners, and I am not really sure at all who was present. I amsure that De Mohrenschildt and his wife, Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and myself, and Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr.Jenner. He was then living with you?
Mr.Glover. Living with me. He was there. And of the other people, I have just a poor impression as towhether——
Mr.Jenner. What about Pierce?
Mr.Glover. Pierce was not there, I know that.
Mr.Jenner. Wasn't there anybody by the name of Fredricksen?
Mr.Glover. He was not there.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know Fredricksen?
Mr.Glover. You are talking about the first meeting? I know Fredricksen. He had his office next to me at the laboratory. He works also at the laboratory, so I know him quite well. He was not there.
Mr.Jenner. You have exhausted your recollection now? There were additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their names?
Mr.Glover. I can recall names of people who might have been there, and I certainly wouldn't swear to it, because I really don't remember that well.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a large party?
Mr.Glover. There were quite a number of people for the small apartment. There may have been five or six, seven or eight more people.
Mr.Jenner. There may have been five or six or seven or eight more people in addition to these you have named?
Mr.Glover. Yes. Now I have an impression, and I may be completely wrong, that a man by the name of Richmond was there.
Mr.Jenner. Richmond?
Mr.Glover. I am not sure how you'd spell his name. I know they called him High Richmond, and he works at the, they call it SCAS, which is Southwest Center for Advanced Studies. He has taught physics at SMU. He may have been there. I do not know for sure. Sam Ballen might have been there, I don't know. I am not clear at all who might have been there.
Mr.Jenner. All right, this was a dinner party or an evening party?
Mr.Glover. Sort of a dinner.
Mr.Jenner. What did the Oswalds look like and what was your impression of Lee Oswald? Tell me how the Oswalds were generally attired? Did anything impress you?
Mr.Glover. Not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of things. I got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly well attired. As I remember, Oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair of pants. He wasn't dressed up at all. Some of the other people were dressed up.
Mr.Jenner. Even though this was in February 1963?
Mr.Glover. Well, I don't know. I got the impression that he was informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was also. That is the impression I got. Maybe she was dressed up more. Again, only impression I have is the informality of it as opposed to some of the other people who would be wearing suits. I can't remember what I was wearing at that time myself. I have the impression that they were different people than a lot of other people.
Mr.Jenner. You did?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That would be true of each of them?
Mr.Glover. About her, I don't know. It is hard to say. I don't remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little girl with a baby over on the bed sofa.
Mr.Jenner. She brought the child with her?
Mr.Glover. I am pretty sure; yes. Now again, I believe so, but again, I am not a hundred percent sure.
Mr.Jenner. On this previous occasion had she brought her child with her?
Mr.Glover. I believe she always had her child with her.
Mr.Jenner. To the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had the child with her?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What occurred that evening in the way of discussion?
Mr.Glover. This evening several people talked to Oswald. I talked very little.
Mr.Jenner. English or Russian?
Mr.Glover. No, I don't remember whether there was any conversation in Russian or not. I really didn't talk hardly any to the Oswalds, any myself that evening. I know I remember that Volkmar Schmidt talked with him considerably, but he did not talk in Russian. Volkmar talked English.
Mr.Jenner. Does Volkmar Schmidt have command of the Russian language?
Mr.Glover. He has no command of Russian, although Norman Fredricksen and Pierce and Volkmar all had started to study Russian. There was a course at the school. I believe there was a course at the laboratory, a private teacher was giving classes. They all three started to take, but Volkmar and Pierce stopped, and Fredricksen was the only one who continued.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name Voshinin familiar to you?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was he the instructor or the tutor for Fredricksen and Pierce?
Mr.Glover. I do not believe so. I don't think that is the—I am quite sure that is not the same person at all. The facts I have about the teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in Dallas who taught classes on the side. Maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was teaching on the side.
Mr.Jenner. Voshinin worked for Sun, did he not?
Mr.Glover. Not the Voshinin that I know. I know one Voshinin, and he is teaching in the Chemical Engineering School of SMU. And his wife does translating. Now I don't know of any other Voshinin. I don't recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but Fredricksen ended up by taking Russian lessons from an older woman who, I think, was related to a woman who—I beg your pardon, Fredricksen took lessons later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name I do not remember.
Mr.Jenner. His mother-in-law? Voshinin's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr.Glover. She had some kind of a name she was known by. I am quite sure—I can't remember whether it was Voshinin—it is not the Voshinin that teaches at SMU.
Mr.Jenner. It is a different one?
Mr.Glover. The only Voshinin I know is the man that teaches at SMU.
Mr.Jenner. Does anything stand out in your mind on this initial meeting which you met Lee Oswald? And if so, would you please state it.
Mr.Glover. Well, the story from the beginning that the De Mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, I didn't talk very much to him—was a perplexing business to me.
In the first place, when he [De Mohrenschildt] told the story, I didn't believe it was possible for any one to go to Russia and work as he did and come back to this country. I doubted it was quite possible. And I mentioned this fact to some of the people I worked with. One fellow was particularly anti-Russian in every way, and he thought this easily possible for a person to do this, that this made sense.
In other words, that I was dubious of the story from the beginning. The thing that I kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where I made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what he said and brought a Russian wife here, that certainly would be known by the authorities, the FBI particularly, and that if a person like he were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he would be someone who is known very well by the FBI people. I told the FBI about this, and I also told them what De Mohrenschildt had written to me quite recently.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about that.
Mr.Glover. De Mohrenschildt told me in a letter that Oswald had been checked by theFBI——
Mr.Jenner. Do you have it?
Mr.Glover. I gave it to the FBI. They have the letter. He stated in the letter that he had asked the FBI about this man, and I don't remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter, but words to the effectthat they passed on him, or he was harmless, or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from their point of view.
Mr.Jenner. That is, De Mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made an inquiry of the FBI and the FBI reassured him?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is, Oswald was all right?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want you to, by your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not in my words.
Mr.Glover. Yes. Well, I did get the impression from what I recall of his letter, that he had checked with the FBI, and I remember he stated specifically in the letter, either in Fort Worth or Dallas, about Oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was acceptable. They passed on him in some way. I don't remember the exact way he put it. It is in the letter.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had any discussion with De Mohrenschildt on that subject on or about the time of your meeting the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. When I got this letter, it reminded me that at one time when they were first talking about putting Marina somewhere, getting her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect, that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he checked with the FBI and they were all right, or words to that effect.
Mr.Jenner. You used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently you made a mistake. Do you recall that?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In this connection, what do you mean by that?
Mr.Glover. I referred directly to one thing, I made the mistake of assuming that a man in his situation—of assuming that, because this man had the history of having been in Russia, apparently, and had brought his Russian wife with him, and so forth, that the FBI would know all about it, and although I was very much perplexed by him, I felt that he must be not a dangerous person. I don't think the FBI thought he was as dangerous as he was, and I think I made a mistake when I assumed that they could know that he was harmless. I assumed that the FBI would know about such a person, and in having this conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do that.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any contact with the FBI prior to November 22, 1963, concerning the Oswalds, or either of them?
Mr.Glover. I did not.
Mr.Jenner. Did they—they didn't interview you, and you made no calls or had any contact with them?
Mr.Glover. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of Oswald on this first occasion that you met him?
Mr.Glover. Well, I didn't get too much of an impression. I didn't really talk to him very much.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get an impression of him being a man of education, or lack of it?
Mr.Glover. I certainly got the impression that he was someone who had a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life.
Mr.Jenner. Very much in his life in the way of material things?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. Or very much in the way of an education?
Mr.Glover. Material, educational, and spiritual.
Mr.Jenner. Spiritual or education or material?
Mr.Glover. That is the impression I got, but it's hard to put that down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. My impression does not come very much from the first meeting where I did not talk to him very much. Subsequently talking with Schmidt and the subsequent meeting at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from that total rather than any detailed thing he said.
Mr.Jenner. Then I will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what your impressionof Oswald was? Let's say, as of November 21, 1963? I am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but I am trying to fix a cutoff period.
Mr.Glover. Well, I came to the conclusion that he was, in the first place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. He was not satisfied with what was in this country originally. He was not satisfied with the life in Russia. And he was not adjusting at all when he came back, so he was very maladjusted.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had the impression that, or did you have the impression that he was generally a maladjusted person?
Mr.Glover. Well, certainly from his whole situation I would conclude that he was maladjusted. In the course of fitting into a social and political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had the impression then that he was not a person of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you moved?
Mr.Glover. Oh, yes; I had the impression that he did not have a capacity to do that. My best word to describe him, my own personal word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. He did not adjust anywhere. He obviously didn't get along with his wife. He wasvery——