Mr.Jenner. Why?
Mrs.Gibson. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any makeup.
Mr.Jenner. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home?
Mrs.Gibson. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it across to each other, you know.
Mr.Jenner. How did she communicate with you?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands, you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I do know this about makeup and smoking.
Mr.Jenner. Were there arguments between them on the subject?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke.
Mr.Jenner. What about his reading habits?
Mrs.Gibson. He read a lot.
Mr.Jenner. How do you know that?
Mrs.Gibson. My father had given him books to read. He was very much interested in them.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your place?
Mrs.Gibson. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm."
Mr.Jenner. What is that book about?
Mrs.Gibson. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a takeoff on people. Orwell—did he write it?
Mr.Jenner. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to read?
Mrs.Gibson. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember any other books?
Mrs.Gibson. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read.
Mr.Jenner. Did he indicate that he had read it before?
Mrs.Gibson. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read?
Mrs.Gibson. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography?
Mr.Jenner. "Mein Kampf"?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he read the Marx book—what was that, was that the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism?
Mr.Jenner. "Das Kapital"?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his literature.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was Natasha or Evalina?
Mrs.Gibson. I know Natasha.
Mr.Jenner. How did Natasha come into this?
Mrs.Gibson. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure I have got the right one.
Mr.Jenner. I can't give it to you.
Mrs.Gibson. You don't have it?
Mr.Jenner. I can't because I don't know.
Mrs.Gibson. You can't because you don't have it? Really?
Mr.Jenner. Really.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part.
Mr.Jenner. Was she a single lady?
Mrs.Gibson. No; she has a husband.
Mr.Jenner. They lived in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles. Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now, whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I figured probably she would know them. That is all.
Mr.Jenner. You were speculating?
Mrs.Gibson. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have no idea.
Mr.Jenner. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her moving into the Hall's?
Mrs.Gibson. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are very vague.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his mother in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Gibson. Maybe.
Mr.Jenner. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say this?
Mr.Jenner. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe he did.
Mr.Jenner. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced or attempted to renounce his American citizenship?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was the subject even discussed?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the Russians wanted him to give it up.
Mr.Jenner. And he declined to?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina politically minded?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr.Jenner. But she was religious?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I'd say she was.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect?
Mrs.Gibson. I think he was very intelligent.
Mr.Jenner. Was he articulate?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what about his argumentation?
Mrs.Gibson. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he was saying.
Mr.Jenner. He was strong in his convictions?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Unbending?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered or prone to violence?
Mrs.Gibson. I think he was very quick tempered.
Mr.Jenner. He flared up, did he, during these arguments?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And other things, with your husband?
Mrs.Gibson. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted, I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call us stupid a lot.
Mr.Jenner. Was that because you differed in your view?
Mrs.Gibson. Differed with him.
Mr.Jenner. From him?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could you possibly say such a thing?"
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When did they go to Haiti?
Mrs.Gibson. Last year some time.
Mr.Jenner. June of 1963.
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago.
Mr.Jenner. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, did they?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment, of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions. Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your home was longer than 3 to 4 days?
Mrs.Gibson. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks I musthave meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time of 2 weeks.
Mr.Jenner. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs. Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of this Commission?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130 which created the Commission?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission under which depositions are taken?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you understand from all those papers that the Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which you have now elucidated.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of this subject?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience.
The following affidavit was executed by Ruth Hyde Paine on June 24, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
State of Texas,County of Dallas, ss:
Ruth Hyde Paine, being affirmed, says:
1. I reside at 2515 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas. I am the Ruth Hyde Paine who testified before the Commission on March 18, 19 and 20, 1964, and gave testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. at the offices of the Commission on Saturday, March 21, 1964, and gave further testimony by deposition in my home the evening of Monday, March 23, 1964.
2. On the occasion of Saturday, November 9, 1963, about which I testified before the Commission, when I took Marina and Lee Oswald in my station wagon to the Texas Automobile Drivers Bureau Station in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to make application for an automobile driver's learner's permit, each of my two children and both of the Oswald children, June and Rachel, accompanied us.
3. Upon our arrival at the Automobile Drivers License Bureau, which waslocated in a shopping center area in Oak Cliff, we discovered that the Automobile Drivers License Bureau was closed. All of us went down the street to a ten cent store which was located approximately three doors down the street from the Automobile Drivers License Bureau Station. We entered the store. I purchased some child panties for my children and Marina selected and Lee paid for an infant's pacifier.
4. After we made the purchases, all of us returned to my station wagon, entered it, and I drove directly to my home in Irving, Texas. Upon arrival there, all of us entered my home where we remained throughout the balance of that day and evening. Marina and Lee Oswald and their children were present in my home throughout the two following days and evenings, November 10 and 11, 1963. Lee Oswald returned to his work at the Texas School Book Depository Tuesday morning, November 12, 1963. I was present in my home throughout November 10 and 11, 1963, except as described in paragraph 13.
5. During the course of my testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, March 21, 1964, Mr. Jenner examined me with respect to the various entries in my calendar diary, Commission Exhibit No. 401, for the period commencing and following September 24, 1963, including, in particular, those entries respecting baby and child clinic appointments for June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, in clinics in Irving, Texas, and in Dallas, Texas, as well as other appointments for June Oswald. On all occasions following Marina's return to my home from Parkland Hospital on October 22, 1963, following the birth of her daughter Rachel on October 20, 1963, when baby clinic, dental and other medical and physical attention appointments for either of Marina's children were made, and about which I have heretofore testified, I drove to the clinic or doctor's office in my station wagon accompanied by each of my children and by Marina and both of her children. This was so irrespective of which of Marina's children was to receive medical or other attention.
6. There were a number of occasions subsequent to September 24, 1963, on which Marina and both of her children accompanied me when I drove in my station wagon to shops, grocery stores, etc., in and about Irving, Texas, to do limited shopping or purchase food stuffs. On each of these occasions, we were also accompanied by my children. Understandably, Marina desired "to get out of the house" and visit with me around Irving, Texas, when convenient to me. I understood this and often went out of my way to invite her to come with me. She always brought her daughter June and after the birth of her daughter Rachel, also brought her.
7. On none of the above occasions did we shop in or visit or enter any furniture store. This includes the Furniture Mart, a store that was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas, which I now understand was owned and operated during its existence by one Edith Whitworth.
8. There were only two occasions during all the period in the Fall of 1963 that I took Marina and Lee together in my station wagon to Dallas, Texas, or anywhere in Irving, Texas. One occasion was a trip to Dallas, Texas, the morning of November 9, 1963, which I have mentioned above. (The other is described in paragraph 14.) I do not know Mrs. Whitworth. I never visited her place of business, nor did I ever drive Lee Oswald or Marina to that place of business; and, to the best of my knowledge and recollection, Marina was never at or in that place of business with or without Lee Oswald during the period she resided in my home in the Fall of 1963.
9. At no time after Marina and I and our children arrived in Irving, Texas, on September 24, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, did I ever take Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald to the Irving Sports Shop, which is located at 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas. I was quite aware during all of this period of Marina's activities and where she was. I know of no occasion when either she or Lee Oswald visited either the Furniture Mart or the Irving Sports Shop.
10. There was no occasion during the period Marina resided with me in the Fall of 1963, of which I was aware or now recollect, that Marina rode either in my station wagon or any other automobile or means of conveyance with Lee Oswald at the wheel. Neither the Irving Sports Shop nor Mrs. Whitworth nor Dyal Ryder was ever mentioned in my presence by either of the Oswalds.
11. I never drove Lee Oswald, with or without Marina, to any area or placein or about either Dallas, Fort Worth, or Irving, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to engage in rifle practice. I did not know until the afternoon of November 22, 1963, that he possessed or owned a firearm of any kind or character. At no time prior to November 25, 1963, did I know or had I heard of anybody by the name of Dyal Ryder.
12. Lee Oswald was not in my home and to the best of my knowledge was not in Irving, Texas, at any time on November 6 or 7, 1963. My recollection is clear that on each of those days, as well as November 8, 1963, Marina and her two children, June and Rachel, were present in my home day and night. Lee Oswald arrived at my home from Dallas, Texas, between 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. on November 8, 1963, for his customary week-end visit, which as to this particular week-end was to extend over through Armistice Day, November 11, 1963. Except for the trip to Dallas, Texas, on November 9, 1963, which I have described above, Lee Oswald remained in my home from the time of his arrival, the late afternoon of November 8, 1963, until he departed for Dallas, Texas, in the early morning of November 12, 1963.
13. I was not present in my home for part of the day on November 11, 1963. As I testified, I made a trip that day, which was Armistice Day and a holiday, to Dallas, Texas. I was gone from approximately 9:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. Not wishing to burden Lee and Marina with my children, I had them stay at my neighbors the Craigs. Marina and Lee Oswald and their children were in my home when I left and were there when I returned. Based upon my conversation with Marina and Lee Oswald, and my understanding of their plans for the day, it is my clear opinion that all of them remained in my home during my trip to and from Dallas.
14. There was one occasion in addition to the occasion of Nov. 9, 1963, which I have described above, that I drove Marina and Lee in my station wagon to Dallas, Texas. On Monday, October 14, which was the day before Lee Oswald obtained a position at the Texas School Book Depository, I drove him to Dallas, Texas. We were accompanied by Marina and her child June as well as by my children. I testified about this event. We left Lee Oswald off in Dallas at Ross Avenue near LaMarr. I then took my typewriter to a shop in Dallas for repair and Marina and I and our children returned to Irving, Texas.
Signed this 24th day of June 1964.
(S)Ruth Hyde Paine,Ruth Hyde Paine.
(S)Ruth Hyde Paine,Ruth Hyde Paine.
(S)Ruth Hyde Paine,Ruth Hyde Paine.
The following affidavit was executed by M. Waldo George on June 12, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
State of Texas,County of Dallas, ss:
M. Waldo George, 6769 Inverness Street, Dallas, being duly sworn says:
1. I am the office manager of Tucker Manning Insurance Company. I am the owner of the premises at 214 Neeley Street, Dallas, Texas, consisting of two apartments, one upper and one lower. In the latter part of January 1963 the upper apartment became vacant and I posted it "For Rent" by means of an appropriate sign in the yard in front of the premises.
2. On March 2, 1963, I was advised by Mrs. George that an individual by the name of "Oswald" had inquired about renting the apartment. Later that day I met the individual who identified himself as Lee H. Oswald. I advised him that the rent for the apartment was $60 per month, and he rented the apartment on a month-to-month basis, paying me $60 in cash for one month's rent in advance.
3. On April 1, 1963, I collected $60 in cash from Oswald, covering rent for the month of April 1963 to and including May 2, 1963.
4. Shortly after this occasion the downstairs tenants, Mr. and Mrs. George B.Gray, called me and informed me that the man in the upstairs apartment was beating his wife. I made no inquiry into this subject matter.
5. Two or three days later, myself and Mrs. George called on the Oswalds in their apartment and invited them to attend Gaston Avenue Baptist Church with us. He informed me and Mrs. George that he attended the Russian Orthodox Church although they were not regular in their attendance, because they had to depend on their friends to take them.
6. During this visit Oswald stated that he had met his wife while he was serving in the United States Marines as a guard at the United States Embassy in Russia, and had married his wife in Russia. I made direct inquiry of him as to whether he had had any difficulty in getting out of Russia with his wife and he said that he had had no difficulty whatsoever.
7. Neither myself or Mrs. George saw Oswald again at any time thereafter. Oswald did not pay rent for the succeeding rental period of May 2 through June 2, 1963. Because my attention was diverted by other matters, I did not go by the apartment to collect the rent for that period until several days after May 2, 1963. When I arrived at the apartment I found it vacant.
Signed this 12th day of June 1964 at Dallas Texas.
(S)M. Waldo George,M. Waldo George.
(S)M. Waldo George,M. Waldo George.
(S)M. Waldo George,M. Waldo George.
The testimony of William Kirk Stuckey was taken at 9:35 a.m., on June 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Jenner. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in your deposition which you are about to give?
Mr.Stuckey. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Be seated. State your full name?
Mr.Stuckey. William Kirk Stuckey.
Mr.Jenner. I regret, Mr. Stuckey, that we have to inconvenience you to have you back to have your deposition taken again. But through some happenstance in New Orleans, the transcript of your deposition never went beyond the U.S. attorney's office apparently, and we appreciate your willingness to come up here and be with us today so that I can depose you again. When I took your deposition before you had received a letter from Mr. Rankin, had you not?
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. I guess I called you when I was down there, didn't I?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; that is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And I explained to you at that time, the time before when I took your deposition, however, the legislation under which the Commission was authorized and the Executive order of the President creating the Commission and the rules and regulations of the Commission on the taking of depositions?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I understand that.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you. In effect, we want to inquire of you in particular with respect to the course of events in which you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in New Orleans in 1963 at some radio broadcasts which you, in your professional capacity, that is, your professional business, had organized, had put on, and you had some fairly extended acquaintance with Oswald in a professional sense.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes. Would you like me to tell you from the very first?
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think for the very first, for the purpose of the record, identify yourself, who you were then and who you are now, and your profession and business and associations.
Mr.Stuckey. Fine. At present I am employed at Tulane University as a special writer. In this capacity I write a syndicated column on higher education which Tulane distributes to 85 newspapers throughout the country. In August 1963 I was a broadcaster with WDSU Radio, New Orleans. This isthe NBC station. I had a weekly 5-minute radio program on economic and political developments in Latin America. I had been in this particular specialty for about 2 years previous. Prior to that I was a columnist with New Orleans States Item, with an interest in Latin America. As a result I had been looking for a long time for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in that area.
Mr.Jenner. If you would excuse me a second, would you give me your formal education because, as I recall in taking your deposition in New Orleans, you acquired some interest in South American relations which led you into looking for something on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes. Formal education was a B.S. degree in journalism from Southern Methodist University in Dallas. After graduation I went into the Marine Corps and completed 2 years of service, after which I spent some 8 months in Central America and Mexico traveling around, essentially hitchhiking, some walking, some third-class bus riding, in which I acquired a good deal of Spanish and an interest in the countries.
Mr.Jenner. What is a third-class bus?
Mr.Stuckey. That is where the goats and chickens aren't on top; they are in there with you.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Stuckey. After I returned I went into the newspaper business.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, how old are you?
Mr.Stuckey. Thirty-two.
Mr.Jenner. You are married?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes;and——
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a family and you live in New Orleans?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is your address?
Mr.Stuckey. 2317 State Street, and I have two children. I went into the newspaper business after returning from Latin America, working largely as a political reporter for a number of years.
Mr.Jenner. Were you giving attention to any particular phase of politics?
Mr.Stuckey. Local government?
Mr.Jenner. Thinking of it in the higher sense—local government.
Mr.Stuckey. You mean in a higher sense, in a subject category?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. I was interested particularly in planning and zoning.
Mr.Jenner. Did you acquire also an interest in South American relations?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; well, I had this interest, but I had no opportunity to exercise this interest in my work until the New Orleans States Item made me a columnist. This was in February 1962 when I started my column, and this extended on until April, I believe it was, 1963.
Mr.Jenner. What was the title of that column?
Mr.Stuckey. New Orleans and the Americas. That was really my first professional involvement in Latin American affairs. After I left the paper, doing public relations, I acquired this radio program, this radio broadcast, which was a very short thing. It was largely to keep my name in front of the public in this capacity.And——
Mr.Jenner. That was a broadcast program?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. It was put on regularly, was it?
Mr.Stuckey. Once a week.
Mr.Jenner. And it is the NBC station down there?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Radio and television or just radio?
Mr.Stuckey. Radio.
Mr.Jenner. That program had a title?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; Latin Listening Post.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us in general the character of that program and to what you were directing your attention.
Mr.Stuckey. Politics and economics. I inquired a bit about the Cuban situation. I had a number of programs that I think you would classify as newsfeatures. They didn't particularly have current events value, but they were interesting topics, and I just went and talked about them. I talked about social welfare programs in Uruguay, the Mexican Revolution; Central American common market; the character of the Latin American university student, this sort of thing.
Occasionally, when I had a live one, when I heard there was somebody in town who was a Latin bigwig, I would bring him on and we would talk whatever he wanted to talk about.
Mr.Jenner. How did you organize those programs?
Mr.Stuckey.Well——
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any preliminary discussions with the people you were going to have on your programs?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes, yes; sometimes I took up to 3 to 4 days to prepare a 5-minute broadcast.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. Actually it is 5 minutes which demands about 700 words, which was just about as long or longer than the column that I used to write, so these columns, 700 words, which would run about a column and a half of type in the paper, consumed within a 5-minute period on the broadcast. Anything else along that line?
Mr.Jenner. I think that covers it generally. Tell us the nature of your work with Tulane University.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You became associated with Tulane when?
Mr.Stuckey. In January, January 6.
Mr.Jenner. Of this year?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is the nature of that work?
Mr.Stuckey. I write a syndicated column on higher education. The column is called Dimension in Education. We deal with all manner of events and affairs affecting higher education, and sometimes things that do not affect higher education. I roam the spectrum of interest in the things. It is extremely interesting.
I sometimes write about such things as the Common Market, the humanities versus science, all this sort of thing, all the current controversies we get into.
Mr.Jenner. Is that in the nature of public relations work?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; very soft shell public relations. Sometimes we don't even mention Tulane. It is just that I think probably Tulane just wants to be established as a fount of wisdom in this particular field, and that is why they print these reports.
Mr.Jenner. During the year 1963, did an event occur, a series of events occur, in which you became acquainted with a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In your own words, taking it from the very first instant of the course of events, perhaps even before you met this man, tell us in your own words, and it doesn't have to be chronological, but the way you would put it out, about it.
Mr.Stuckey. Fine. As I told you before, as a Latin American columnist and one interested in affairs, I had been looking for some time in New Orleans for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. There haven't been any. Most of the organizations that I had contact with in mywork——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me—how did you learn about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mr.Stuckey. I was going to get to that.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Stuckey. Most of the organizations that I had contact with were refugee organizations, very violently anti-Castro groups, and there were a number of them in New Orleans. These people were news sources for me also. I used them quite frequently. One day, I think it was in August, the latter part of July of 1963, I was in the bank, and I ran across a refugee friend of mine by the name of Carlos Bringuier. Bringuier toldme——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me—identify Mr. Bringuier.
Mr.Stuckey. Mr. Bringuier at that time was the New Orleans delegate to the Revolutionary Student Directorate which was an anti-Castro group with headquarters in Miami. He also ran a clothing store called Casa Roca. He was an attorney in Havana before the Revolution, the Cuban Revolution of 1958, and had been very active ever since I had known him in New Orleans in anti-Castro activity. I had interviewed him on a number of occasions in connection with Cuban current events. Mr. Bringuier ran into me in the bank, and I spoke to him and he said that a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had appeared in New Orleans and that he had had an encounter with him shortly before.
Mr.Jenner. That interested you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes, very much, very much, because I knew something of the reputation of this group. I regarded them as being about the leading pro-Castro organization in this country, a propaganda organ for the Castro forces, and I had done a considerable amount of reading of congressional testimony, articles, and this sort of thing about their activities. Mr. Bringuier said he had had an encounter with a young man who was representing the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me—you had known Bringuier and you had had contact with him; had he ever been on your program up to this moment that you speak of?
Mr.Stuckey. No; he had never been on my program, but, as a newspaperman, I had contacted him quite frequently for information.
Mr.Jenner. Proceed.
Mr.Stuckey. He told me that—this is in the bank—a few days before, I don't recallexactly——
Mr.Jenner. This was a chance meeting?
Mr.Stuckey. This was a chance meeting with Mr. Bringuier. I was cashing my paycheck and Bringuier told me a few days before he had run into this fellow in his store, this Casa Roca—this young man had approached him.
Mr.Jenner. A young man had come in?
Mr.Stuckey. A young man. At the time he had mentioned no name. If he had, it wouldn't have made any difference to me because the name meant nothing.
He said a young man came in, introduced himself and said he was a veteran of the Marine Corps, he had just gotten out, and that he was very disturbed by this Cuban situation and he wanted to do something about hurting Castro, or trying to change the regime. He, in someway——
Mr.Jenner. This was something this up-to-the-moment unnamed young man had said to Mr. Bringuier?
Mr.Stuckey. Had said to Mr. Bringuier as Bringuier recounted it to me later. I am telling you Bringuier's story now.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I wanted to make clear that you were.
Mr.Stuckey. Right. Now, this young man said somehow he knew Bringuier was connected with the Revolutionary Student Directorate, how, I don't know. But, at any rate, as I said, he offered his services.
Then he presented a Marine Corps Handbook to Bringuier. He said, "This might help you out in your guerrilla activities and such. This is my own personal Marine Corps Handbook", which Bringuier accepted. That was the gist of the conversation. Bringuier told me that sometime after that, I don't recall exactly how long it was, he was walking on Canal Street, the main street of New Orleans, about a block away from his store, and he ran into this young man again. This time he was distributing literature, handbills, and the handbills said, "Hands Off Cuba", and on the handbill it said, "Join the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, Charter Member Branch".
It was this same young man. Bringuier, who was a rather excitable fellow, and he couldn't understand why this fellow was now distributing pro-Castro literature whereas a short time before he had posed as an anti-Castro man. So Bringuier got into a shouting match with him on the street corner, and I think some blows were exchanged, I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. Bringuier is again telling you this?
Mr.Stuckey. This is what Bringuier is telling me, because I did not witnessthis. At any rate, regardless of what happened, I don't know the exact sequence of events, the police arrived on the scene and took everybody down to the jail. Oswald was booked for disturbing the peace, and I think later fined $10, and let go. Well, this is what Bringuier told me in the bank.
Mr.Jenner. I may assume up to this moment you had not seen anything in the newspapers on this subject?
Mr.Stuckey. No; I hadn't. There wouldn't have been anything in the newspaper had it not been in my column, and my column at that time did not exist.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Stuckey. So I mentioned to Bringuier that I was interested in locating this fellow and talking to him. Bringuier gave me his name.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that this was the early part of August?
Mr.Stuckey. Or the latter part of July, I am not really sure. It wasn't—I would say probably the early part of August. It was a Friday. I can tell you that.
Mr.Jenner. It was August 9, 1963.
Mr.Stuckey. That is quite possible. So I inquired as to the name and the address of this fellow, and telephone, if any, and Bringuier said his name was Lee Oswald, and he lived on Magazine Street, somewhere in the 4000 block, I forget the exact address, and he had no telephone. This was a Friday. My program is on a Saturday.
I decided that early the next morning I would go by this address and ask Oswald if he would appear on my program. So very early, it was about 8 o'clock the following—wait a minute, I am losing some chronology. This was not the next Saturday. Then some time elapsed, and, at any rate, it was August 17 when I went by his house. I forget now exactly why this time did elapse, but it did.
Mr.Jenner. Had he again distributed handbills?
Mr.Stuckey. To my knowledge; no. He may have. He may have. But, of course, I had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not carrying stories about it, and I, well, just had no contact with him at all.
I did not meet him until August 17, at which time I went by his house on Magazine Street to ask him to appear on my program. This was early in the morning, about 8 o'clock. I went early because I wanted to get him before he left.
Mr.Jenner. This was a Saturday?
Mr.Stuckey. It is a Saturday. I knocked on the door, and this young fellow came out, without a shirt. He had a pair of Marine Corps fatigue trousers on. I asked him, "Are you Lee Oswald?" And he said "Yes."
I introduced myself and I told him I would like to have him on my program that night. So he asked me in on the porch. This was a screened porch, and I had a very brief chat. He said he would ask me inside for some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had better talk on the porch.
Mr.Jenner. Describe this Magazine Street place. Were you able to find it easily?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; no problem. It was on the side of the house—or the entrance was on the side.
Mr.Jenner. Was on the side and somewhat back from the front?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side of the property, but it was offset, to the rear.
Mr.Jenner. Frame house?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; it was a frame house, as well as I recall.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. So we had a few cursory remarks there about the organization. He showed me his membership card to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which was interesting, and it identified him as the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and it was signed by A. Hidell, president.
Mr.Jenner. Was that president or secretary?
Mr.Stuckey. President, A. Hidell. He was identified on the card, as I recall, as the secretary.
Mr.Jenner. That is, Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. Oswald; yes. It was a card on which there was a handwritten—it said "Mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name "Lee Oswald" was in the center of the card. In the lower right-hand corner it was signed by A. Hidell, president.
Mr.Jenner. Was this name familiar to you?
Mr.Stuckey. No; as a matter of fact, I would like to explain this, that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred to me again, I never thought of the name again, until after the assassination when Mr. Henry Wade of Dallas on television on a Sunday, I believe, mentioned that Oswald purchased a rifle from a Chicago mail-order house and had used the name A. Hidell in purchasing the rifle. When he said "A. Hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light bulb over my head, I recalled the name. Otherwise I would never have remembered the name.
Oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. There were several—I will mention them if you would like.
Mr.Jenner. I wish you would.
Mr.Stuckey. There were two speeches by Fidel Castro. One was "The Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought." Another was "Bureaucracy and Sectarianism." There was a pamphlet by Jean Paul Sartre, and this pamphlet was called "Ideology and Revolution."
There was a pamphlet called "The Crime Against Cuba," by Corliss Lamont. I believe that is all the literature that he gave me at that time. I got some subsequently to that which, incidentally, Mr. Jenner. I promised you that pamphlet the last time I saw you, and I couldn't find it, but I have since found it, and I brought it up for you. I will give it to you now before I forget.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. I will show you what is marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize the person shown on that photograph.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; that is Lee Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Does it look like him as of the time that you interviewed him on Saturday, August 17?
Mr.Stuckey. Almost exactly. He was dressed almost in exactly the same way, with a short-sleeved dress shirt, and a tie, and a black looseleaf notebook under his arm which apparently he used as a holder for literature.
Mr.Jenner. I hand you a series of exhibits, Pizzo Exhibits Nos. 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C. Would you examine those and tell me whether your friend, Mr. Bringuier, is shown on any of those photographs?
Mr.Stuckey. He is not there.
Mr.Jenner. You were referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A; he is not on that one?
Mr.Stuckey. No. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is of Oswald alone.
Mr.Jenner. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is a picture of Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes. Pizzo Exhibit 453-B is also Oswald, but Bringuier is not in the picture.
Mr.Jenner. All right. We will mark the pamphlet you have brought with you, which is entitled "The Cuban 'Episode' and the American Press: April 9-23, 1961" as Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.
(The pamphlet was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Handing you Stuckey Exhibit No. 1, being a 15-page pamphlet—I guess it is 16 including the back cover—is that one of the pamphlets that he handed to you and exhibited to you on August 17 and Saturday morning when you interviewed him in his home?
Mr.Stuckey. No; this is not one. I received this pamphlet that night when he showed up at the radio station.
Mr.Jenner. We will go into it later on, but I think for purposes of identification, was it a pamphlet that he gave you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; he gave it to me.
Mr.Jenner. Prior to the radio broadcast you are about to describe?
Mr.Stuckey. Immediately prior to that. Incidentally, I requested all the literature that he had.
Mr.Jenner. You did?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; and he gave me everything he could find that morningwhich were the four or five pieces I have already described. Then at night he says, "Look, I found this also", and he brought this.
Mr.Jenner. Meaning Stuckey Exhibit No. 1?
Mr.Stuckey. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.
Mr.Jenner. I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. All right, we had you still on Saturday morning talking with him at his home on Magazine Street.
Mr.Stuckey. Right. We discussed literature, his literature, the pieces of information I have already described. He showed me the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card. I asked him about the membership of this organization, and he said there were quite a few, quite a few members. The figure 12 or 13 sticks in my head. I don't really recall why now. There were that many officers or something like that, 12 or 13 people he mentioned that he was responsible to, or active workers, something like that, although I guess I shouldn't mention it until I have a more coherent idea of why he used that.
Mr.Jenner. Just give your best recollection of what he said on that occasion.
Mr.Stuckey. Right. Also as I recall, he was very vehement, insisting he was not the president, but was the secretary, and that was the occasion in which he pulled out his card showing that he was the secretary, not the president, and this other gentleman, Hidell, was the president.
Mr.Jenner. Did that strike you in any special way that he was apparently careful to point out to you that he was secretary instead of president?
Mr.Stuckey. No; it made no impression on me, none whatsoever. It seemed logical. He appeared to be a very logical, intelligent fellow, and the only strange thing about him was his organization. This was, seemed, incongruous to me that a group of this type—or he should associate with a group of this type, because he did not seem the type at all, or at least what I have in my mind as the type.
I would like to mention this. I was arrested by his cleancutness. I didn't expect this at all. I expected a folk-singer type, something of that kind, somebody with a beard and sandals, and he said—I found this fellow, instead I found this fellow who was neat and clean, watched himself pretty well.
Mr.Jenner. You mean he watchedhis——
Mr.Stuckey. He seemed to be very conscious about all of his words, all of his movements, sort of very deliberate. He was very deliberate with his words, and struck me as being rather articulate. He was the type of person you would say would inspire confidence. This was the incongruity that struck me, the fact that this type of person should be with this organization. That is the gist of the first meeting.
I asked him to meet me at the radio station that afternoon about 5 o'clock for the interview, and he agreed.
Mr.Jenner. This was to be an interview preliminary to a broadcast?
Mr.Stuckey. Well, this was to be a recorded interview prior to the broadcast.
Mr.Jenner. Why would you do that?
Mr.Stuckey. To avoid the possibility of errors. It is a risky business going on live. You know, you never know when you are going to slip up and, particularly, with somebody as controversial as a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee you want to know what you have in hand before you put it on.
During that day I thought quite a bit about Oswald before he arrived at the station for the interview, and I was interested in his articulateness and in discussing this organization, so I had decided during the day that instead of just interviewing him for 5 minutes, which was the length of my program, that I would just let him talk as long as he wanted to.
Mr.Jenner. In the private interview with you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; but record it.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; of course.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes. And then I thought after doing that I could take some excerpts out for a 5-minute program, and then ask the management at the station if they would be interested in running the whole thing in toto as a demonstration of the line of this organization. So this was the decision I made before the broadcast.
I drew up a lengthy list of questions, and then I met him that afternoon about 5 o'clock at the studios of WDSU, 520 Royal Street, New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. That is in the French Quarter, is it not?
Mr.Stuckey. In the French Quarter. He was dressed exactly as he is shown in this picture.
Mr.Jenner. Garner Exhibit No. 1.
Mr.Stuckey. Which is Exhibit No. 1, short-sleeved dress shirt with a tie, a black looseleaf notebook under his arm. There were no preliminary remarks particularly. We just went immediately into the studio. It was at this point that he gave me this pamphlet.
Mr.Jenner. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct. And we were seated—this conversation was witnessed or listened to by an engineer in WDSU by the name of Al Campin.
Mr.Jenner. Was that prearranged?
Mr.Stuckey. Well, you have to have an engineer to record it.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Stuckey. He just happened to be there operating the equipment, but he was, I mean he was, there, as a witness, and was greatly interested in it, because like me he hadn't run across too many of these birds, and we were curious to see how they thought and why.
So at that time then we began a long rambling recorded interview which lasted 37 minutes, covered a wide range of subjects.
Naturally, a lot of the subjects had to do with Cuba. We discussed the problem of the refugees leaving Cuba, we discussed as to whether or not Castro was an independent ruler of an independent nation or whether he was merely the head of a colony which was the line that I took.
Mr.Jenner. Head of a colony?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; a Russian colony, Cuba. This was the line that I took in this questioning.
We discussed the economic situation in Cuba, as to what had happened to the economy since Castro took over. We discussed a few abstracts. I asked him the definition of "democracy," which was interesting to me.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a transcript of that interview?
Mr.Stuckey. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Have you brought one with you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. May I have it, please?
Mr.Stuckey. Incidentally, I have a letter here that you may or may not be interested in. Father Clancy is the chairman of the political science department at Loyola University in New Orleans. I sent him this transcript as a Catholic and as a political science man just to see what his opinion was, and he went much stronger than I ever did after reading that, but the last paragraph, I thought, was interesting, and I thought you might be interested in reading the letter.
Mr.Jenner. The witness has furnished me a 13-page document on light-weight, green-tinted paper. The first page is entitled "Transcript of Taped Interview Between William K. Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald, August 17, 1963," and the last page of which, the last three lines of which, read:
"STUCKEY: Tonight we have been talking with Lee H. Oswald, secretary of The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans," et cetera. "(Standard close.)"
I wonder if you would be good enough, Mr. Stuckey, to initial each of these 13 pages. We will mark this as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. I suggest you put your initials at the bottom.
(The document was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. The witness has now placed his initials at the foot of each of the 13 pages of the transcript.
When and how was this document prepared, Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?
Mr.Stuckey. I typed it.
Mr.Jenner. You typed it as you were listening to your tape?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You have also brought with you the actual original tape of this interview?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is the radio tape?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And this 13-page document is a literal transcription or translation of that tape?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; there are some errors, but they are very, very small errors, largely typographical errors.
Mr.Jenner. Prepared by you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you look at the 13-page document, and if there are any errors other than obvious typographical errors which you would like to draw to our attention, I wish you would do it. You were going to look through it and see if therewere——
Mr.Stuckey. I can tell you in advance there are no errors in fact, and no deletions, with the exception of this last paragraph which I abbreviated by saying "standard close." All that was, was I would have been talking with Lee Harvey Oswald—"This is Bill Stuckey, Latin Listening Post. Good night"—that is all that was, no facts at all.
Mr.Jenner. The words ("standard close") appearing on the last line of page 13 is a shorthand way of your designating your customary signoff?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; correct.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence Stuckey Exhibit No. 2.
Mr.Stuckey. I was going to refer to this definition of "democracy" that he gave.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. Are you interested in it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. This is interesting to me for a number of reasons, not just the meaning but how adept this fellow was at taking a question, any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your question. He was expert in dialectics.
"STUCKEY: What's your definition of democracy?"
Mr.Jenner. You are reading from Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 now?
Mr.Stuckey. Correct.
"OSWALD: My definition—well, the definition of democracy—that's a very good one. That's a very controversial viewpoint. You know, it used to be very clear, but now it is not. You know, when our forefathers drew up the Constitution they considered that democracy was creating an atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth; these rights, well, the classic rights of having life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. In Latin America they have none of those rights, none of them at all, and that is my definition of democracy, the right to be in a minority and not to be suppressed; the right to see for yourself without government restrictions such countries as Cuba, and we are restricted from going to Cuba."
The question was, "What is your definition of democracy?", and we discussed the passport ban as part of the definition.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, he did not respond to your question?
Mr.Stuckey. No; except obliquely to make the point.
Mr.Jenner. Did you find that he did that—it will appear, of course, in thattranscript——
Mr.Stuckey. Constantly throughout the interview.
Mr.Jenner. In your discussions with him he parried your questions by not answering them.
Mr.Stuckey. He would—his general attack would be "I am glad you asked that question, it is very good," and then he would proceed to talk about what he wanted to talk about, and completely ignore your questions on occasions. So there were at least half a dozen examples of that.
Mr.Jenner. In the transcript which you have furnished?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you supply a copy of that transcript to anyone else prior to your bringing Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 today?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. To whom?
Mr.Stuckey. To the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr.Jenner. When you were interviewed by the FBI you supplied the FBI with a transcript?
Mr.Stuckey. No; as a matter of fact I gave the tape to the FBI the Monday following the interview, which would have been August 20, 1963. I told them I thought it was very interesting, and if they would like to have a transcript they could copy it, which they did. They made a copy and then they gave me a copy of their transcript, and returned the tape to me.