Mrs.Gibson. We knew the location of the place where he was working.
Now, I am not sure if we knew that he was working already or if we thought he was still unemployed, not unemployed but already employed but not working yet.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall Mrs. Hall having been involved in an automobile accident?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was in October, was it not, 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know what the month was, but I imagine it was. It must have been in the latter part of October.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall Marina residing with Mrs. Hall?
Mrs.Gibson. She was with Mrs. Hall before the accident and after the accident and while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital she lived at the house.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall also that Mrs. Hall, after she returned from the hospital, went to New York City?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. And that while she was in New York City, that Marina stayed at her home also?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; she did.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether during that period Lee Oswald stayed at the Halls'?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he did. I believe, while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital; he stayed with Marina while she was alone for 2, 3, or 4 days, something like that. He was there off and on. He spent quite a few nights there, I know this.
Mr.Jenner. Were there any occasions when you and your husband or either of you were at the Halls' when Oswald was there?
Mrs.Gibson. I believe we took him to Fort Worth once to visit, and we stayed for supper, and Mrs. Hall was there and she cooked us supper. This is before her accident, and Alex was there and Marina and Gary and myself.
Mr.Jenner. This is the occasion to which you earlier made a reference, is it, or had you done so?
Mrs.Gibson. It was the occasion where Alex and Lee got into an argument; yes. And this was prior to Mrs. Hall's accident. We stayed until fairly late in the evening. I can't remember if we brought Lee back with us or if he spent the night. It would seem logical, I think we brought Lee back with us.
Mr.Jenner. You brought him back to where?
Mrs.Gibson. To Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. To where in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know. I can't remember.
Mr.Jenner. This was before he stayed at the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. No; this was after.
Mr.Jenner. This was after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital?
Mrs.Gibson. No; this was before her accident. This is while Marina was there.
Mr.Jenner. To help orient you, she was in the hospital from the 18th of October 1962 to the 26th of October 1962.
Mrs.Gibson. This is before her accident. I think only a couple of days before her accident or a day before, because I remember how shocked I was when I heard that she had been in an accident. It was only a day or two before, so where would he have been living, at the Y, wouldn't he, at that time?
Mr.Jenner. He would be at the Y.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. He was at the Y on the 15th.
Mrs.Gibson. I imagine that is where we dropped him then.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know of your own personal knowledge the fact that Lee stayed with Marina at the Halls' from time to time?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; Mrs. Hall told me—he told me andMarina——
Mr.Jenner. Oswald told you?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; and Marina told me in a roundabout fashion.
Mr.Jenner. How?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, she'd tell, you know, Mrs. Hall to tell me something and Mrs. Hall would tell me, that is how, or through Lee, or through gestures or a dictionary she would be able to tell me a few words.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether or where, I will put it that way, where Lee stayed between the 19th of October 1962, when he left the Y, and November 3, 1962, when they moved into the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. I know that he stayed part of the time, I'd say a good portion of the time, at Mrs. Hall's. Now, whether he had another residence I don't know. I know he spent a few evenings with my father. If he spent a night there I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. When you say he spent a few evenings with your father, I infer from that—and if my inference is wrong please tell me—that there were occasions when he stayed overnight in your father's home.
Mrs.Gibson. No; not occasions. I think possibly one or two times. But he would be over there evenings and they would talk. Then he would leave. Now, where he went to I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. But your recollection is that there were at least several occasions in which he stayed overnight in your father's home?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I am trying very hard to think of where he stayed. It is such a very vague recollection, so vague it is barely there, that he had a room. But I don't know where.
Mr.Jenner. During this period?
Mrs.Gibson. During that period; yes.
Mr.Jenner. From the 19th to the 3d?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; it is so vague but it is there, that he had a room somewhere. Where I don't know. I just can't think.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a recollection that either you or your husband ever went to visit him at some room?
Mrs.Gibson. No; Gary possibly, but me, no. Gary might have picked him up some place, but not me. I don't recall. It is just so vague and maybe it is just because you think there was one that I say this. But I feel that there was a room some place.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any recollection that your stepmother gave you at any time an address?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. At which Lee, a place where Lee was staying during this period from October 19 to November 3?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't. She might have, but I have no recollection of it whatsoever. But then we weren't on too tremendously good terms and I might have just not even thought of what she said.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, it is your recollection that during this period, October 19 through November 3, that Lee did stay a good portion of the time at the Halls?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With Marina?
Mrs.Gibson. It seems to me that he had a place to live somewhere near where he was working, somewhere easily accessible on foot, to where he was working.
Mr.Jenner. That is your former husband Gary's recollection, and he seemed reasonably confident that you would recall the address.
Mrs.Gibson. No, no; no idea. Did Gary mention something about one night we were in Oak Cliff and we were looking for some place.
Mr.Jenner. He said you were looking for Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Is that what he said? And we went up and down and up and down and we never found the place. I recall one evening, I don't remember what we were looking for, but I recall this.
Mr.Jenner. You were looking for Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Is that who we were looking for?
Mr.Jenner. No;I——
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know, I am not sure, but one evening Gary and I were looking for some place, and I don't know where it was. But it was in Oak Cliff. It was right over the river. And we went up and down and back and forth fora good hour looking for this address. And I can't think of where it was, and we never found it. I do remember that. We never found it.
Mr.Jenner. But it had something to do with Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. I think it did. I think it had to do with a room that he had over there, but where it was, the address, I don't know. I never knew Oak Cliff very well in the first place.
Mr.Jenner. You say he was now employed and could afford a room?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; but I don't know where. I—we couldn't find it wherever it was, because we looked.
Mr.Jenner. But you did have an address at that time?
Mrs.Gibson. I had an address for something I was looking for. What it was I don't know. If I was looking for him or if I was looking for somebody else, if Gary was looking for somebody, I don't recall. But it could possibly be that it was him that we were looking for. I don't know how Gary thinks I can remember an address, though. I don't.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when you assisted Marina and Lee to move into the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. What day of the week was that?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know. Weekend.
Mr.Jenner. Was that a weekend?
Mrs.Gibson. It seems reasonable that it would have been a weekend, but then with Gary working as a cabdriver, I don't know if it was or not, because he sometimes worked weekends. They were good days to work. Saturday was very good. Was it a Sunday?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Wait a minute, it was a Saturday, the 3d of November 1962, was a Saturday.
Mrs.Gibson. Did we move him in on that day or did he start rent from that day?
Mr.Jenner. The advice of the landlord or manager of the building was they moved in on the third, but do you recall that it was a weekend rather than a weekday?
Mrs.Gibson. I wouldn't know. It could have been. It seems more logical that it would have been a weekend.
Mr.Jenner. Now, tell us about that from the beginning. What led up to it, how you participated, the extent you participated with your husband?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, when we were over in Fort Worth visiting Mrs. Hall, we had taken Lee over there to see Marina, we told them we would help them move when he found a place, and he came by one eveningor——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. This then was after he had obtained a job?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes. He either called or came by one evening.
Mr.Jenner. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion when you went over to see them?
Mrs.Gibson. When we moved them or before, that other time?
Mr.Jenner. That other time.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; she was.
Mr.Jenner. So this was subsequent to October 26?
Mrs.Gibson. And also we were over there to visit them also another time after she had the accident, and I remember she was in bed.
Mr.Jenner. Was it before or after she went to the hospital?
Mrs.Gibson. It was after, right after, when she came home and she was still in bed. It was before she went to New York.
Mr.Jenner. She came back on the 26th of October?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; and we went over there and she was still in bed.
Mr.Jenner. Was that the occasion? Was he there?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was that the occasion when you told him that you would help him move?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When he found a place?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I believe he said he was looking. And Ibelieve——
Mr.Jenner. Lee was at the Halls' on that occasion?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I think we took him there.
Mr.Jenner. All right, he was not at the YMCA.
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. He was not staying at the Halls'?
Mrs.Gibson. No; he came to our apartment.
Mr.Jenner. So he must have been staying somewhere in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he must have been. He came to our apartment. I don't ever recall taking him back to any place in particular, or picking him up at any place in particular. See, that is my problem. But I do remember the visit when she was in bed, and we told them that we would help them move. And I guess he must have called us or come to visit us about moving, and we took our car and I think, I don't know if we rented a trailer, I think they rented a trailer in Fort Worth, I am not sure, and left it in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Let's get it sequentially. You left your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Lee came to your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In the morning was it?
Mrs.Gibson. Morning or early afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. And then you left your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You, your husband, and Lee?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And where did you go?
Mrs.Gibson. To drop the baby off.
Mr.Jenner. Your baby?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With a sitter?
Mrs.Gibson. No; to Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Gibson. From there we went to Fort Worth to Mrs. Hall's, and then Lee and Gary went to rent a trailer, and I stayed with Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Where was Mrs. Hall?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know. I guess she was in New York. So, they came back with the trailer and we started to load up all the stuff, andAlex——
Mr.Jenner. Kleinlerer?
Mrs.Gibson. Kleinlerer came by, I guess to supervise the moving, to see that nothing was taken of Mrs. Hall's, and he watched us move and we got all their stuff out, and we took them to their apartment in Oak Cliff, Elsbeth apartment, to move them in there. By then it was early evening, and then we left them there. We looked over the apartment and we left them there.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband rented that trailer?
Mrs.Gibson. I think Lee did; didn't he? I don't think Gary paid for it. Did Gary pay for it? I can't imagine Gary paying for it. He might have, but I don't see it.
Mr.Jenner. Apart from that, did Lee thank you for spending the day?
Mrs.Gibson. Very briefly, thank you, and that was all. Marina was not happy with the apartment at all. She said it was filthy dirty, it was a pigsty and she didn't want to stay there. Lee said it could be fixed up.
Mr.Jenner. What was their attitude toward each other on that occasion?
Mrs.Gibson. They were arguing.
Mr.Jenner. During the day when you reached the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Not too much during the day but after she saw the apartment she was very unhappy with it and they were arguing very much when we left.
Mr.Jenner. Was it your impression she had not seen it?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe she had; no.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of the apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. It was a hole. It was terrible, very dirty, very badly kept, really quite a slum. It had possibilities to be fixed up. It was large, quite large, built very strangely, little rooms here and there, lots of doors, lots ofwindows. The floor had big bumps in it, you know. It was like the building had shifted and you walked up hill, you know, to get from one side of the room to the other. It was not a nice place; no.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a brick structure, wooden?
Mrs.Gibson. It was brick outside, dark red brick. It was a small apartment building. I think two stories, overrun with weeds and garbage and people.
Mr.Jenner. Did you visit the Oswald's in that apartment thereafter?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether your husband did?
Mrs.Gibson. I think he told me when I came back to Dallas in December that he visited them once.
Mr.Jenner. I take it then that sometime after November 3, you left Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I left Dallas the latter part of November.
Mr.Jenner. And just to orient you, where did you go?
Mrs.Gibson. I went to Tucson, Ariz.
Mr.Jenner. You were with your aunt?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I was by myself.
Mr.Jenner. Had you lived in Tucson?
Mrs.Gibson. Before that, no; not really. I had been to boarding school there a few years, and I lived in Tucson 1 year with my aunt in a house that we rented, and her husband, but I had not lived in Tucson before this.
Mr.Jenner. Let's identify her. What was her name?
Mrs.Gibson. Mrs. Tilton.
Mr.Jenner. What was her full name?
Mrs.Gibson. Do you want her first name?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Gibson. Nancy.
Mr.Jenner. Nancy Tilton?
Mrs.Gibson. Nancy Sands Tilton.
Mr.Jenner. And her married name?
Mrs.Gibson. Mrs. Charles Elliott Tilton III.
Mr.Jenner. And in previous years you had as a young girl, even as a child, lived with her; had you not?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was a good many years?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; 14 years.
Mr.Jenner. Fourteen years. Was that in Arizona or Florida?
Mrs.Gibson. It was all around. I lived in Vermont in the summer, Arizona in the winter, Florida sometimes. It depended.
Mr.Jenner. Your aunt was a person of means I gather?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You have already mentioned that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald when you returned from Arizona?
Mrs.Gibson. I am not sure if it was then or if it was right before I left.
Mr.Jenner. Before you left for what?
Mrs.Gibson. Arizona.
Mr.Jenner. And where did you see him?
Mrs.Gibson. At the apartment. He came by to pick up a manuscript that I had of his.
Mr.Jenner. That is at your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I show you a document that is in evidence in this proceeding as Commission Exhibit No. 95. Would you examine that and tell me whether that is the manuscript to which you have made reference several times.
Mrs.Gibson. I believe it is. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw that document and how it came into your possession?
Mrs.Gibson. I asked Lee if he had written anything on Russia that I could read, if he had any material, and he said yes, he did; that he had a manuscript that he had written on general life in Russia and I asked him if I could read it and he said yes and he gave it to me. He brought it over one evening. I have no idea of the date or the time.
Mr.Jenner. Was it reasonably early in the course of your acquaintance with the Oswalds?
Mrs.Gibson. I think it was before they moved to Dallas, to Oak Cliff.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss the manuscript with him?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I did. I told him he should publish it and he said no, that it was not for people to read.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss its contents with him?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; a little bit. I asked him questions about it.
Mr.Jenner. Can you recall any of the inquiries you made of the discussions you had with him regarding the substance of it?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I asked him, I believe on this manuscript that it was said that you could not move from town to town.
Mr.Jenner. In Russia?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; and he was telling me why.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mrs.Gibson. He said that the housing problem was so difficult there that once you got an apartment or a room in one city, that you had to wait in line in another city to get housing, therefore, you were not allowed to leave from one city to another unless you already had housing and a job. But for him it was easier because he was an American, and I guess as he said they were trying to impress him a little bit.
Mr.Jenner. In that connection did he imply that he was free to move about the country as he saw fit?
Mrs.Gibson. Freer than Russians I would imagine. He did imply that he was freer than they were.
Mr.Jenner. To move around?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say that he had at any time left Minsk to go anywhere else?
Mrs.Gibson. I believe he had been to Moscow.
Mr.Jenner. Was that in connection with his efforts to return to this country?
Mrs.Gibson. I have no idea. I think it was just to see the countryside.
Mr.Jenner. Would you look further through that manuscript and see if your recollection is refreshed as to any other discussion you had with him?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, we talked a little bit about clothing and food.
Mr.Jenner. That is a generalization. Tell me what you talked about.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, he said that the Russian people were very impressed with his clothing, that they did not have the quality or the style that he had. Also the sparseness of fruits, vegetables there. He told them about the supermarkets we had here and how plentiful fruit and vegetables were, how expensive butter and everything was in Russia, like that, your dairy products, aside from milk, butter, and cottage cheese, and all these things were extremely expensive and, well, like gold. Education we talked about, how much higher their educational standards are.
Mr.Jenner. Than ours?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say in that connection?
Mrs.Gibson. They are much higher, that everybody is trained there to do something. That they have what would be considered, well, like your elementary school, and after you finished this required, oh, I don't know what it is, 8 or 9 years of school, you take this test, and if you pass this test you are admitted into what is considered college. If you don't pass it, you are able to choose a vocational school that you can go to to train you in some vocation, oh, like bricklayers or electricians or plumbers or something like this. You are allowed to choose whatever you want. You hear, he said, that women are laying streets, let's say, in Russia and he said that isn't because they are made to but this is because what they have chosen to do, what they want to do. That is about the general gist of what he had to say.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall something about a time when little June was baptized?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that, please.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, one evening there was a knock at the door and I went to answer it and Mrs. Hall and Marina and June were outside, and Mrs. Hall came in and told me that she had just brought Marina and June to Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina and the baby come in the apartment, too?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And Mrs. Hall said this in the presence of Marina?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was your husband home?
Mrs.Gibson. No. She said that they brought the baby to Dallas to be baptized without Lee knowing it because he would object, and that Marina had been brought up in Russia with religion, although it was against the law there, and that she wanted her child to be baptized, and that Lee objected so strongly to it that she did it on the sly, and she asked me please not to tell him. And she left a box of clothes of his there for me that she had bought him. It was his birthday, I believe, the next day.
Mr.Jenner. Lee's birthday?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, he was born on the 18th of October 1939, so this was the occasion when he was living at the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. His birthday was the next day or something, or a couple of days.
Mr.Jenner. He was at the YMCA from the 15th through the 19th, 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. I am getting my days messed up, because I thought she stayed with us while he was at the YMCA. She must not have. You know, I can't place when she stayed with us. I can just place the period of time that she stayed with us, you know, that it was not over 3 or 4 days.
Mr.Jenner. Could it have been right following his leaving the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. It possibly could have been. I really don't know. But like I said, that is something I forgot. Now that you know his birthday, you can place when she was baptized and when she brought this box to me.
Mr.Jenner. She was baptized the day before his birthday?
Mrs.Gibson. I am not sure if it was the day before or 2 days or 3 days, but it was real close to his birthday.
Mr.Jenner. Real close?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The records indicate the baptism occurred on the 17th of October, 1962.
Mrs.Gibson. Then it must have been the day before.
Mr.Jenner. Which is the day before his birthday, but the occasion you remember it was about his birthday time?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. They left a box of clothing or some gift?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, it had a shirt and a pair of sox and general things.
Mr.Jenner. These were new?
Mrs.Gibson. Brand new.
Mr.Jenner. A gift?
Mrs.Gibson. A gift; yes. From his wife.
Mr.Jenner. Didn't it seem strange to you at that time with him at the YMCA they didn't ring him up or go by the YMCA and leave this birthday gift?
Mrs.Gibson. She didn't want him to know that she was in Dallas because she didn't want him to know she had baptized the baby.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee speak with you on that subject?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I guess it must have been the next day that he dropped by and I gave him the box, and I didn't say anything about this, but I think he had heard it. I think he had talked to Marina or something on the telephone.
Mr.Jenner. He became aware when he came by the next day, which would be his birthday, that theyhad——
Mrs.Gibson. I think she told him on the telephone that she had baptized the baby, and he asked me if I knew, and I said yes, and he said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And I said, that it was not any of my business.
Mr.Jenner. I am a little bit confused. He came by the next day, that is the day after Mrs. Hall and Marina were there?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he came by to pick up his birthday gifts?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. At that occasion you didn't say anything to him about the baptism?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Therefore, at some subsequentoccasion——
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Afterthat——
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. There was a discussion?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I think it was probably the day after that that he dropped by and he asked me about this. He asked me if they had been there, and I said yes. He says, "Why didn't you tell me?"
Mr.Jenner. Why you didn't tell him what?
Mrs.Gibson. That they had been there and that the baby had been baptized, and I said that it was none of my business.
Mr.Jenner. The thing that confuses me a little bit is he came by and picked up the birthday gift.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing was said about baptism.
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. On that occasion.
Mrs.Gibson. No, no; I thinkhe——
Mr.Jenner. Therefore, he must have known or inquired as to where you got the birthday gift, correct?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't recall. I think I had some story fixed up for that. Mrs. Hall, I think, told me to tell him that she had been by, or something. I can't remember what it was, but she had some story, you know, for how come I had that.
Mr.Jenner. That would explain that, then.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I don't, you know, really remember what was said exactly.
Mr.Jenner. The day following thatoccasion——
Mrs.Gibson. I did not tell him that I had seen Marina, though.
Mr.Jenner. Is when he approached you on the subject?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Of the baptism and why you hadn't told him?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say to him?
Mrs.Gibson. I told him it was none of my business, and he wasn't too happy about it.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say about the fact that June had been baptized?
Mrs.Gibson. Not too much. He wasn't really that upset about it. He just said he didn't like the idea, but that was all. He wasn't terribly upset about it.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Gibson, was he upset because the baby had been baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church rather than the Lutheran Church, for example?
Mrs.Gibson. No; he was an atheist. He just didn't want anything to do with religion.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and your husband have discussions with him on the subject of religion?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what were his views on the subject of religion?
Mrs.Gibson. He didn't believe in it. He didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in anything.
Mr.Jenner. And did that discussion occur reasonably often, on more than one occasion?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, it was mentioned in with politics. You know how that can get. The two subjects you are not supposed to talk about we talked about probably the most.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression about any view or hope or desire or ambition on his part of some future attainment?
Mrs.Gibson. He didn't really talk too much about in the future or what he wanted to do. I don't know what he wanted to do with himself.
Mr.Jenner. Was President Kennedy ever mentioned in the course of the discussions between your husband and Lee?
Mrs.Gibson. Never, never. He wasn't President at the time anyway, was he?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; he was.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he was. He had just become President, hadn't he? No, he was never mentioned. Now, the only person ever mentioned pertaining to that was the Governor of Texas.
Mr.Jenner. He became President in 1960.
Mrs.Gibson. It was the Governor of Texas who was mentioned mostly.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mrs.Gibson. First you are going to have to tell me who the Governor was.
Mr.Jenner. Connally.
Mrs.Gibson. Connally. Wasn't that the onethat——
Mr.Jenner. That had been Secretary of the Navy.
Mrs.Gibson. That had been Secretary of the Navy, was it? Well, for some reason Lee just didn't like him. I don't know why, but he didn't like him.
Mr.Jenner. Would this refresh your recollection, that the subject of Governor Connally arose in connection with something about Lee's discharge from the Marines?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't recall. I just know Lee never spoke too much about why he left the Marines or anything like that. I don't know. Maybe it was a dishonorable discharge, I don't know. All I know is that it was something he didn't talk about. And there was a reason why he did not like Connally.
Mr.Jenner. Whatever the reason was, he didn't articulate the reason particularly?
Mrs.Gibson. No; he just didn't like him.
Mr.Jenner. But you have the definite impression he had an aversion to Governor Connally?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; but he never ever said a word about Kennedy.
Mr.Jenner. Did you answer?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I did; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your answer is yes?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That he did have a definite aversion?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. To Governor Connally as a person?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did he speak of that reasonably frequently in these discussions?
Mrs.Gibson. No; not really, no. He didn't bring it up frequently.
Mr.Jenner. But he was definite and affirmative about it, was he?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he didn't like him.
Mr.Jenner. Was General Walker ever discussed?
Mrs.Gibson. No, no.
Mr.Jenner. Were there any discussions in these political arguments between your husband Gary and Lee Oswald about, oh, the American Civil Liberties Union, the Birch Society, people having, let's say, extreme right viewpoints or left viewpoints?
Mrs.Gibson. Gary was quite a Democrat, and he disliked the Birch Society intensely. So every once in a while they would come into the conversation, being that Gary felt so personal about them. He didn't like them at all. And Gary once in a while would make a comment, "Oh, he is a Bircher," I can't name any particular person, but just somebody in particular.
I think Dallas is a fairly Republican city. No, there was nothing ever about any of the different factions, or right or left wing. Just I know Gary disliked the Birchers. As I recall, I don't think Lee had much to say about them. I think maybe he liked more radical people than we did, you know, the normal straight down the middle or conservative or something.
Mr.Jenner. Were there occasions when you saw either of the Oswalds at your father's home?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Were there occasions when your father and your stepmother brought either of the Oswalds to your apartment other than those you have already testified about?
Mrs.Gibson. Not that I recall, no.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall seeing Oswald on the day before he moved into the YMCA? He moved into the YMCA on Monday, October 15. Did you see him the previous day, Sunday?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know. I really don't know.
Mr.Jenner. But you do recall taking him to the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mrs.Jenner. On Monday, the 15th?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; we might have. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Did you go and pick up Oswald at Mrs. Hall's when you took him to the YMCA, or did he just come by your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. I can't remember where we picked him up, but I know we didn't go to Fort Worth to pick him up, no. It could have been at the bus station.
Mr.Jenner. But you went somewhere to pick him up is your recollection?
Mrs.Gibson. We could have gone somewhere. He could have come to our apartment. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware of Marina staying with the Halls?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Hall?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware of her going to attend to Mrs. Hall; to do that before she actually went to live with Mrs. Hall?
Mrs.Gibson. I might have heard something about it from my father. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. But you did not hear it from Mrs. Hall?
Mrs.Gibson. I didn't know Mrs. Hall until I met her through Marina.
Mr.Jenner. AfterMarina——
Mrs.Gibson. When I went to visit there.
Mr.Jenner. That is when you went to visit Marina while she was staying at the Hall's?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; when Lee and Gary and I went over there. That is the first time I ever met her. But she was very friendly because she knew my father, you know, and so it was a very friendly atmosphere.
Did Mrs. Hall give a fixed time of when Marina stayed with her?
Mr.Jenner. I can't say it was a fixed time, but she testified that it was before she had her automobile accident.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, what I am trying to fix in my mind is when Marina stayed with me, you know.
Mr.Jenner. That is the 3 or 4 days?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I can't fix that in my mind at all now. I thought it was when he was at the YMCA and then it couldn't have been because of when the baby was baptized and when his birthday was. But it must have been shortly before that, because it wasn't after that. So it must have been before.
Mr.Jenner. Well, it wasn't on the 14th of October because you took him to the YMCA on the 15th. Was Marina living with you then?
Mrs.Gibson. No; not then, no. But she might have been shortly before that. I believe she was at Mrs. Hall's then, wasn't she. Doesn't she know where she was?
Mr.Jenner. Well, she has got some impressions; yes.
Mrs.Gibson. I hope she does.
Mr.Jenner. I am trying to find out what you recall.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, you know, I can't recall when she was there. I know when she wasn't there now more than I did before, from placing his birthday and the box and that, I know she wasn't there then.
Mr.Jenner. Wasn't where?
Mrs.Gibson. At my place. I know she wasn't there then, because she cameto visit me from Fort Worth with Mrs. Hall. But how long she had been with Mrs. Hall must not have been too long.
Mr.Jenner. The thing that bothers me, also, Mrs. Gibson, Mrs. Hall entered the hospital on the 18th of October.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is Lee's birthday. She was at your place the preceding day?
Mrs.Gibson. I think it was that night that she got in the accident. That is why I said it was very shocking when I heard, you know, that she had been in an accident.
Mr.Jenner. And at the time she had her accident, Marina was living with the Halls'?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was living at Mrs. Hall's home?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband Gary recalls that while Lee was at the YMCA, that he came to visit at your home.
Mrs.Gibson. That is possible.
Mr.Jenner. And his recollection was that Marina was with you at that time.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, she couldn't have been.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Could it be that she stayed with you for a few days after he left the YMCA and before they moved into the Elsbeth Street home or apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I don't know how it could be possible, because when we moved her from Fort Worth, she was at Mrs. Hall's. Now whether she stayed with me while Mrs. Hall was in New York, she couldn't have because she was, Mrs. Hall was in New York when we moved Marina, see, and Marina was there.
Now, I suppose it is possible that she stayed with us, then, but I remember she stayed with Mrs. Hall after the accident because Mrs. Hall needed her. She couldn't get around. I know she was there before the accident because of the baptism and Lee's birthday. So it leads me to believe she was there the whole time, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall when the Oswalds left the Mercedes Street apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't know when they left that. They moved, from there they moved all her stuff to Mrs. Hall's.
Mr.Jenner. Right from the Mercedes apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. I guess they must have. All the stuff was there.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when your father moved Marina and the baby from the Elsbeth Street apartment to Mrs. Meller's?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the Oswalds living at 214 Neely Street?
Mrs.Gibson. Where was that?
Mr.Jenner. That is just about a block from the Elsbeth Street apartment, which they moved into from the Elsbeth Street apartment.
Mrs.Gibson. That must have been after I left.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; it was.
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. You just don't recall anything about that?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I wasn't there.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you do recall Marina staying 3 or 4 days.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Can you grasp in your recollection why? What led up to that?
Mrs.Gibson. I think it was the period before she went to Mrs. Hall's. It must have been after Lee lost his job, or quit.
Mr.Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; and before he got the new one. It must have been then. And I think it was while they were trying to find her a place to live, while he was job hunting.
Mr.Jenner. And before he got his job with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs.Gibson. It must have been.
Mr.Jenner. On the 12th of October? You see that is a 4-day period, Mrs. Gibson.
Mrs.Gibson. Between when he lost his job and got his job?
Mr.Jenner. That is right.
Mrs.Gibson. That is probably where she stayed then. I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. The last day he worked at Leslie Welding was the 8th of October 1962. He became employed and went to work for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October 1962.
Mrs.Gibson. That probably was when she stayed with us, then. I just don't have any recollection of when it was.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any recollection that she came to stay with you, the reason why? Was she having difficulty with Oswald? Was that the reason, or was it because he was out of work?
Mrs.Gibson. I think it was because he was out of work. I don't think they had any money. I think my father lent them money, didn't he? I don't know. Somebody must have given them money. It was Bouhe, that is who it was who lent them money.
Mr.Jenner. It was only 4 days, Mrs. Gibson.
Mrs.Gibson. No; but he had to have money to get started. He had to have money to stay at the YMCA. He had to have money to get started, and I know who gave him money. George Bouhe did.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; George Bouhe did, there is no question about that.
Mrs.Gibson. Because I recall that. He gave him money, and he also had the debt to pay to the American Embassy.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to where Oswald stayed prior to the time that he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October, that is between the 8th of October and the 15th of October? That is a week.
Mrs.Gibson. No; all I know is he never did stay at our place overnight ever.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall when you were looking for this address, was it an address on North Beckley?
Mrs.Gibson. It is possible that it was.
Mr.Jenner. Does that stimulate your recollection at all?
Mrs.Gibson. No; it doesn't. I just know that Beckley is near the river.
Mr.Jenner. And you were looking in the area.
Mrs.Gibson. Near the river; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, between the 19th of October and the 3d of November, which was the day you picked up Oswald and Marina and the baby and took them to the Elsbeth Street apartment, do you know where Oswald was staying?
Mrs.Gibson. No; but it was probably in that area where I was looking, you know. I am not even sure who I was looking for, but it seems possible. I don't know anybody else in Oak Cliff, you know. If that is anywhere near the Jaggars Co., and I think it is, that is probably where, and who we were looking for.
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina taken to the dentist to your knowledge other than the first period, the first visit in August of 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. I think she might have had another appointment. That possibly could have been the other reason why she stayed with me, but I am not positive. It seems to me you know by the dentist records if she had. I remember she had teeth pulled. Now, how many—and, as I recall, those first appointments led to a later appointment after her mouth had healed. But I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina stay at the Halls' on more than one occasion, that is periods?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Was it just one period?
Mrs.Gibson. I think it was one period.
Mr.Jenner. Did it have anything to do with Mrs. Hall's accident?
Mrs.Gibson. Why Marina stayed there, you mean, or why she left?
Mr.Jenner. Why she went there in the first instance.
Mrs.Gibson. No; Mrs. Hall had not had her accident when Marina first moved in.
Mr.Jenner. Was Mrs. Hall aware that Marina had stayed at your home?
Mrs.Gibson. I think so. In fact, I could almost say positively she must have been aware of it.
Mr.Jenner. What leads you to say that?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I mean she never knew that Marina and I knew each other.She brought her to my place. I had told her that, I believe I myself, told her that Marina had stayed with me. I mean it is just in common conversation that she must have known. Didn't she know?
Mr.Jenner. Including this 3- or 4-day period?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; she must have known because that was before Marina stayed with her. Does she know?
Mr.Jenner. She didn't mention it in her testimony.
Mrs.Gibson. Am I the last one to testify?
Mr.Jenner. No. Mrs. Gibson, were you aware that Lee Oswald gave your apartment address and your telephone number—when I say your I mean you and your husband—when he was seeking employment in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he asked Gary's permission and Gary said all right.
Mr.Jenner. That was in your presence?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was that permission requested before he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October? He obtained his job at Jaggars, remember, on the 12th of October.
Mrs.Gibson. I believe it was before. He said he needed to establish a residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there had been any calls for him or messages during the day.
Mr.Jenner. Now, were there any calls or messages?
Mrs.Gibson. No; not that I recall. I don't believe there were.
Mr.Jenner. And do you recall him looking for work during this period? That would be the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of October.
Mrs.Gibson. I really don't know. If he had a job, it doesn't seem that he would be looking for a job.
Mr.Jenner. He was at the Texas Employment Commission on the 9th, 10th, and 11th.
Mrs.Gibson. Then probably he was. And if he gave our address and our phone number; I am sure he was.
Mr.Jenner. But you don't recall where he was staying during that period?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Could he have been staying at Hall's?
Mrs.Gibson. Gee, it is possible, but I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. But you do recall that he did stay at the Hall's a good deal or portions of the time that Marina was there?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he went there weekends, as I recall, when he was working. He spent the weekends there.
Mr.Jenner. When he was working at Jaggars?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. So when he began to work at Jaggars, which was the 12th of October, up to the 3d of November when you and your husband, Mr. Taylor, took the Oswalds to the Elsbeth Street apartment, he visited at the Hall's on weekends?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. So there was some place he was staying then himself during that period?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; there must have been.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mrs. Hall live in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And Fort Worth is approximately 30 miles?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. From Dallas, isn't it?
Mrs.Gibson. He didn't stay in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. He stayed in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But you can't recall still where he stayed in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I have no idea.
Mr.Jenner. But it is now your definite recollection that he did stay in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I knowthat——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me—after he became employed at Jaggars?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that he was staying in Dallas at the time.
Mr.Jenner. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats between the two of you along about this time?
Mrs.Gibson. No; we had been spatting all our life.
Mr.Jenner. I mean were you on speaking terms?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I'd say so.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up Oswald in front of the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up?
Mrs.Gibson. I guess so.
Mr.Jenner. Bring him to your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus.
Mr.Jenner. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of temperance or intemperance, drinking?
Mrs.Gibson. I never saw him take a drink.
Mr.Jenner. Did he smoke?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't think he did.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina smoke?
Mrs.Gibson. On the sly.