Mr.Jenner. Myrtle Evans referred to Pittsburgh Plate and Lillian Murret referred to Pittsburgh Plate. You do recall that?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; in fact, I think at the time she worked at Pittsburgh Plate she was going with Mr. Ekdahl. In fact, I think I remember him driving us over there or something once.
Mr.Jenner. When you were at Bethlehem, did your Aunt Lillian ever have occasion to visit?
Mr.Pic. She never visited us that I recall. We visited her many times.
Mr.Jenner. While you were at Bethlehem?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall Myrtle Evans visiting on any occasion?
Mr.Pic. I don't remember. Wait a minute. Myrtle Evans, is she kind of heavy?
Mr.Jenner. She is now.
Mr.Pic. She was then too, that is the same one.
Mr.Jenner. Energetic?
Mr.Pic. Yes; I remember a Myrtle.
Mr.Jenner. She had taken some accountingand——
Mr.Pic. The name is familiar, sir. I can't place the lady.
Mr.Jenner. She had been a girl friend of your mother's?
Mr.Pic. Yes; I wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at Bethlehem, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember the Evanses coming over to see you when you were at Covington, one time?
Mr.Pic. I don't recollect, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recollect Myrtle Evans coming and visiting when you first went to Texas?
Mr.Pic. Sir; I don't remember Myrtle Evans that much. The name Myrtle is familiar to me. Just like this woman that worked at Holmes for 30 years is familiar to me. Where I had seen her and different places?
Mr.Jenner. H-o-l-m-e-s?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; this is a department store in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. Of course you would recall the Murret family.
Mr.Pic. Yes; I recall them very good.
Mr.Jenner. There were a couple of those children about your age and Robert's, is that right?
Mr.Pic. I can only—let's see, Charles, there is Marilyn and Charles.
Mr.Jenner. Marilyn is the youngest?
Mr.Pic. Marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; Boogie is the youngest.
Mr.Jenner. B-o-o-g-i-e?
Mr.Pic. What is he doing now. I heard he was playing semipro ball.
Mr.Jenner. No. He is not doing that any more. Is Boogie John?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; Ithink——
Mr.Jenner. One is a dentist, one is with Squibb, Gene is a seminarian.
Mr.Pic. Gene is the priest. Gene is the one who is my age or thereabouts. Boogie was closer to Robert's age.
Mr.Jenner. She had five children?
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Marilyn.
Mr.Pic. Joyce.
Mr.Jenner. Marilyn, Joyce, John,Gene——
Mr.Pic. Charles.
Mr.Jenner. And Charles. They are all alive?
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. That was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much.
Mr.Jenner. How did Lee get along with them?
Mr.Pic. Well, I don't know how he got along with them. I know he was placed there several times to stay for a while. I don't know if the people resented this or was glad to have him or not.
Mr.Jenner. Well, they were glad to have him. They appeared to me to be generous people.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. We always could count on our uncle for a dollar or two.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. I take it from the questions I asked you this morning that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with the Oswald family?
Mr.Pic. There was no contact that I remember at all, sir, after his death. Prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what I remember. I remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would visit. He had this other Oswald who was either a brother or sister or something, we visited these people. I remember the older woman we visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just Robert and I, a whole bunch of toys for Christmas every Christmas. But after his death, there was no contact at all, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What is your impression as to why that took place?
Mr.Pic. I will speculate and saythat——
Mr.Jenner. Give me the impression you have rather than speculate.
Mr.Pic. They couldn't get along with Mrs. Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. With your mother?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went to work in 1942, and she had a couple, a Mr. and Mrs. Roach taking care of Lee who wasthen——
Mr.Pic. What was Roach's first name, sir?
Mr.Jenner. Thomas.
Mr.Pic. What street did he live on?
Mr.Jenner. 831 Pauline.
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I don't. The only one I could think of that may have taken care of Lee was this milkman Bud and his wife.
Mr.Jenner. To help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your mother lived with Lee at 831 Pauline Street in 1942, and a couple present there by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Roach, Thomas and Dora Roach. They had been living on de Lessups Street in New Orleans, in the 800 block.
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And moved into 831 Pauline, or your mother moved into 831 Pauline Street with them. There was a whole question as to who was the renter, whether it was the Roaches or your mother?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; this I don't recall at all.
Mr.Jenner. And it wasn't long after they were there that some difficulty arose with respect to Lee and that ended that. It was about 6 weeks or a month, 2 months. But you have no recollection of that?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right. The question I asked you and which I keep interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course of recounting that.
Mr.Pic. Well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and lower in the class structure.
Mr.Jenner. As your financialstatus——
Mr.Pic. And our class structure, both.
Mr.Jenner. Would you elaborate on that? Your financial status went down?
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. And then you say lower in the class structure?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about that?
Mr.Pic. I would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on Alvez.
Mr.Jenner. While your father was alive?
Mr.Pic. And, being we moved to Bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, I think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, two class structures dropped, something like that.
Mr.Jenner. Were you conscious of that even as a 10-year-old?
Mr.Pic. Well, I realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Go ahead.
Mr.Pic. Well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with our own kind, so to speak. I had no feelings whatsoever. I mean, we enjoyed that place. They were rather strict but we enjoyed it. We had quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. We would sneak out of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. But Robert and I enjoyed it.
Mr.Jenner. I am thinking more of your relations with your mother. Was her personality affected by the death of your stepfather?
Mr.Pic. Probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as the oldest and things like this. When we were in Bethlehem we didn't see that much of her.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Pic. Maybe once every 2 weeks, that would be the most often. Maybe once in a while she would drop around.
Mr.Jenner. While you were at Bethlehem did you visit the Murrets?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; several times, lots of times. You see the home once or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in New Orleans. We would get on the rides and naturally the Murrets were right there, and so we would rent bikes for free. It was on the home and I would ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did Robert. Whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there.
Mr.Jenner. While at least through the Bethlehem Orphanage period your present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a reasonably happy life?
Mr.Pic. We enjoyed it.
Mr.Jenner. Like all children you accommodated yourself to the circumstances?
Mr.Pic. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think probably a good new start off point is Mr. Ekdahl. Tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance was at that time, what your mother's was?
Mr.Pic. Okay.
Mr.Jenner. Give times as best you can.
Mr.Pic. If you can date for me when I had my appendix out I can practically date for you Mr.Ekdahl's——
Mr.Jenner. I am afraid I can't. Were you at Bethlehem Orphanage?
Mr.Pic. Yes; I was at Bethlehem so it would be either 1943 or 1944, and I am sure she was at Pittsburgh at that time.
Mr.Jenner. Pittsburgh Plate?
Mr.Pic. Right. And it was right after I had my appendix out that he appearedon the scene. And she visited us more often when she was going with him.
Mr.Jenner. And she brought him with her, did she?
Mr.Pic. Yes; he had the car.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, did your mother have an automobile during this period following your stepfather's death?
Mr.Pic. I don't think so, sir.
Mr.Jenner. But Mr. Ekdahl did have an automobile?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; he had a 1938 Buick.
Mr.Jenner. And your mother visited you more often?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. And they on weekends took us to Covington. I remember once, it may have been more.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I wanted to ask you about that. While your stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit Covington?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr.Jenner. Covington, as I understand it, Covington, La., is sort of a summer resort area, is it not?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; it is on the—it is north of New Orleans on the northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain, and the Murrets used to go to Mandeville, which is about 30 miles closer to New Orleans than Covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the summer.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the names of any of those people that you—whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during the summer period?
Mr.Pic. To the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at these tourist places. We were never at anybody's home. The Murrets were, I believe, at somebody's home in Mandeville. They had a large house there.
Mr.Jenner. Does Mrs. Benny C-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to you?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. At 600 West 24th Street, Covington, familiar to you?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Does the address 311 Vermont stimulate your recollection over in Covington?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. That may have been the street we lived on when we went there in 1946, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I ask you to relate the circumstances respecting Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr.Pic. Well, in June 1944, we were removed from Bethlehem,and——
Mr.Jenner. Did you know about that in advance? Were you aware you were going to be removed and why?
Mr.Pic. I don't remember how much in advance we knew this. We knew maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time.
Mr.Jenner. Or maybe the more important thing is why were you being removed from Bethlehem? What were the circumstances of bringing that about?
Mr.Pic. Well, she was marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and if you had two parents they wouldn't allow you to stay at Bethlehem.
Mr.Jenner. She was not yet married to him?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Didn't marry him until the 5th of March 1945?
Mr.Pic. That is about right, sir.
Mr.Jenner. So you were removed in June or May 1944, and the record shows in June. Describe Mr. Ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have a recollection?
Mr.Pic. Hewas——
Mr.Jenner. Who was he? Who did you understand he was?
Mr.Pic. He was an electrical engineer. His home was in Boston, Mass., somewhere around there. He was described to us as a Yankee, of course. Rather tall, I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore glasses, very nice man.
Mr.Jenner. Very nice man. I take it he was older than your mother?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit.
Mr.Jenner. A man of at least, apparently of considerably better means than your mother?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Than you boys had been accustomed to?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What about his health, what did you understand as to that?
Mr.Pic. I have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at that time, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I see. When you were taken from Bethlehem Orphanage in June of 1944, where did you go?
Mr.Pic. Dallas, Tex., sir.
Mr.Jenner. And do you recall where you lived in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Pic. I remember what the house looks like, sir. I don't remember the address. You can probably refresh me on that.
Mr.Jenner. I will do so and I want to make it accurate. 4801 Victor was the address.
Mr.Pic. That sounds familiar.
Mr.Jenner. In Dallas. Would you please describe that 4801 Victor Street home?
Mr.Pic. It was white, two story.
Mr.Jenner. Frame, brick?
Mr.Pic. Frame. I think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. I am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. We lived on the lower right, in boxcar-type rooms.
Mr.Jenner. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Pic. Well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, kitchen.
Mr.Jenner. One lined the other, you mean?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I see. With a long hallway to connect it; is that it?
Mr.Pic. The hall ran into each room as you walked by it.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; you lived there with your mother, with Lee, and with Robert?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. At the outset?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any recollection where he lived? First, was he in Dallas?
Mr.Pic. I think he was in Fort Worth, sir. And he used to come over to Dallas to see us. Is that right?
Mr.Jenner. I think that is right. I can't answer.
Mr.Pic. Okay.
Mr.Jenner. That was one of the reasons why I asked my first question.
Mr.Pic. I think that is the way the setup was, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I think that is so but I don't know. He would come over from Fort Worth and visit you?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You boys, when you reached Dallas in 1944, you entered school, grammar school at that time, did you?
Mr.Pic. Robert—just a moment, sir; I remember I attended a summer school session of the 6th grade. Robert may have. I don't really remember. I think he did.
Mr.Jenner. We are in the summer of 1944?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; we went to summer school. I did, I know. I think he may have.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember that it was the DavyCrockett——
Mr.Pic. No, sir; it was not the Davy Crockett. It was another school. Davy Crockett is where we entered in September. We meanwhile went to summer school.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Pic. If you can give me a map of Dallas?
Mr.Jenner. You never heard of it?
Mr.Pic. Give me a map of Texas and I can show you where approximately the school was and I will show you where it was.
Mr.Jenner. You did, after that summer school period in the summer of 1944, enter grammar school in Dallas?
Mr.Pic. That is right. Davy Crockett Elementary School. I entered the 7th grade and Robert entered the 5th.
Mr.Jenner. Let's see, Lee is now almost 5 years old. Did he enter Davy Crockett at that time?
Mr.Pic. To the best of my recollection, no, sir.
Mr.Jenner. At that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. All right, you and Robert then entered Davy Crockett?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You continued on at Davy Crockett in the fall semester?
Mr.Pic. Just a moment.
Mr.Jenner. Yes?
Mr.Pic. This house we went to in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Pic. My mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one side of it.
Mr.Jenner. It was a duplex?
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Myrtle Evans testified that she recalled visiting you, the family, on a trip she made to Dallas on one occasion, on a buying trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, two-place houses. To me they are duplexes.
Mr.Pic. Right; duplex.
Mr.Jenner. So her recollection is fairly good then. Does that affect your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it was a two-apartment building?
Mr.Pic. I am pretty sure it was four apartments.
Mr.Jenner. Okay; go ahead.
Mr.Pic. Well, I was under the impression and always have been that she owned the house, and there was some arrangement with Mr. Ekdahl as to how she got it or something. She was renting to one couple upstairs, I know; is this right?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Pic. We are in Davy Crockett Elementary School, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Carry on.
Mr.Pic. Well, that would be September 1944. In the summer of 1945 she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think you dated that as March or April.
Mr.Jenner. She married him, in fact, on May 7, 1945. I said March before; I misspoke. It was May 7, 1945.
Mr.Pic. I have got summer. It is pretty good.
Mr.Jenner. Did he then move into the 4801 Victor Place?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came back and moved in.
Mr.Jenner. In the summer of 1945 did you and Robert continue on at—through that summer in Dallas?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. That following September, however, you transferred to some other school; did you not?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school session ended in 1945. I knew before we left Davy Crockett we were going.
Mr.Jenner. What was the name of that?
Mr.Pic. In September 1945, sir, Robert and I entered Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, military school for boys, Port Gibson, Miss.
Mr.Jenner. And you were aware of that—that that was forthcoming?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; as early as May 1945 I think.
Mr.Jenner. And what were the circumstances?
Mr.Pic. Mr. Ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding school.
Mr.Jenner. I exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of your mother's dated February 1, 1945, to the Bethlehem Orphanage, John Pic Exhibit No. 4 in which your mother is petitioning the Bethlehem Orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage.
Mr.Pic. I don't think I was aware of this letter.
Mr.Jenner. You were not aware?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. So circumstances that you can recall now of the possible relationship between your mother and Ekdahl that might have led to her seeking to do this?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. She says in her letter she is thinking in terms of returning you to Bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with her husband when she does marry him—that is Mr. Ekdahl. There was no discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject?
Mr.Pic. Not returning to Bethlehem, no, sir; not that I remember. I have to find Victor Street and from there I can just about guess where the school was. I am lost on this map. I can't find Victor Street and where I lived.
Mr.Jenner. Was Davy Crockett Grammar School near your home at 4801 Victor Street?
Mr.Pic. About three blocks, sir. Three long blocks.
Mr.Jenner. Describe that neighborhood to us.
Mr.Pic. I think it would be middle class.
Mr.Jenner. A level up from what you had been accustomed back in New Orleans?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. There were fine brick homes; in fact, I had a paper route out there that I delivered, and easily middle class. Maybe some upper middle class.
Mr.Jenner. Was your life there pleasant?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And when Mr. Ekdahl moved in were the relationships generally among all, now five of you, pleasant?
Mr.Pic. Between Mr. Ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. I think there were some arguments between Mr. Ekdahl and my mother from time to time.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware of those?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. I am going to need a map with a listing of the schools. This one doesn't seem to have one. This summer school was about a good 2 miles away. We walked it in the morning.
Mr.Jenner. You and Robert?
Mr.Pic. I think me and Robert. We had other friends that we went to school with.
Mr.Jenner. Of course.
Mr.Pic. And there were always a group of us. I don't remember if Robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth.
Mr.Jenner. I see. When you came around to the fall of 1945, however, you entered the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; in fact, the trip to Chamberlain-Hunt was a side trip because Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and Lee were on their way to Boston to visit his folks. And so they dropped us off at the school and then proceeded to Boston.
Mr.Jenner. Was that a motor trip?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; it was in a 1938 Buick.
Mr.Jenner. You remained at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy except for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long?
Mr.Pic. Well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. I have got a whole bunch of goodies while I was at Chamberlain-Hunt.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mr.Pic. During Christmas vacation of 1945 Robert and I received money to go home for the Christmas holidays. We were to take the train from Vicksburg, Miss., to Shreveport, La. These were instructions and when we arrived atShreveport, we were to wait for Mr. Ekdahl to pick us up. We arrived and he wasn't there. So I think we waited around, I have an estimate of between 1 and 2 hours, and then he showed up. He then drove us to Fort Worth, Benbrook, Tex., and we had a house about 15 miles below Fort Worth in Benbrook, it was way out. It wasn't the same Benbrook house, it was further. This was a brick house.
Mr.Jenner. The first house in Benbrook?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had you known the family had moved to Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; because we was writing.
Mr.Jenner. Because of correspondence?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. This was your first view of that house?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us what it was; describe it to us?
Mr.Pic. It was rather isolated on one of the main highways. In fact, I just drove that way recently and I couldn't find the place. When I went up to Fort Worth in 1962 I was looking for the house, I couldn't find it.
Mr.Jenner. Was it Granbury Road, Box 567, Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; that sounds familiar. This was a brick house, with quite a bit of ground. I think way back they told us that one of the Roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how I remember. We arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why we were so late. One reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy fog, and I informed her we had to wait a while for Mr. Ekdahl, and she kind of hinted to me, I think I was 15 at the time, did I see another woman or was there anything shady about it or something. That is all I have to say about that. She was under the impression years later, she told me that he had met some woman in Shreveport and they were having some fun.
Mr.Jenner. You were in Benbrook, Tex., then for the Christmas holiday?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You and Robert?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Lee was living with Mr. Ekdahl and your mother at the Benbrook, Tex., home out on the outskirts of Fort Worth; I guess thisis——
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And you returned after the Christmas holidayto——
Mr.Pic. It would be January 1946 we returned to, back to Chamberlain-Hunt.
Mr.Jenner. Did you return home at all from then on until the summer of 1946?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Where were you during the summer of 1946?
Mr.Pic. In the summer of 1946, Robert and I were informed that we would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. Well, school let out in May and I think summer session starts in June, so there was a waiting period of about 2 to 3 weeks, so we just stayed there. This suited us fine. We really liked the school.
Sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us that her and Mr. Ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with Lee, of course, and she was going to take us to Covington where we would stay the summer. We had—the commandant of the school was an attorney, and I think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding or something. She talked to him about it, I know. His name was Farrell, Herbert D. Farrell. He was commandant of the school. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr.Jenner. Not that I know of.
Mr.Pic. A real nice man, too. She had the car.
Mr.Jenner. The 1938 Buick?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. She had it.
Mr.Jenner. Had she taken a home or a house in Covington?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. When we arrived there she looked for a house, and there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown area thatwe stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this area. That address I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Does the address, the street Vermont Street refresh your recollection, 311 Vermont?
Mr.Pic. The only thing I remember about the house is a lady next door was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out every morning chasing them with a broom.
Mr.Jenner. The squirrels?
Mr.Pic. The squirrels. This was a one-story brick house, and we lived on the right side.
Mr.Jenner. You stayed there throughout the summer?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you return to Chamberlain-Hunt that fall?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; we returned to Chamberlain-Hunt in September 1946. Then for the Christmas holidays, 1946, 1947, we returned to Covington where she and Lee still were, and spent those holidays there. During those holidays we made one trip to New Orleans with this other boy who lived in Covington also that we went to school with, and they were driving to New Orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to New Orleans and visited the Murrets a day or so. I think it was 1 day.
Mr.Jenner. Did your mother accompany you?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had Lee entered grammar school at this time?
Mr.Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Our records show that heentered——
Mr.Pic. He probably did.
Mr.Jenner. He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January 23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School.
Mr.Pic. Probably.
Mr.Jenner. Is that your impression at the time that he was in school, he is now 7 years old?
Mr.Pic. I think he had to be in school or they came and got him. My next note says that sometime between January 1947 until May 1947 Mr. Ekdahl and my mother were reunited. Robert andI——
Mr.Jenner. Had she returnedto——
Mr.Pic. To Fort Worth. She didn't return to Fort Worth. They moved to Fort Worth. We had never been to Fort Worth before that except in Benbrook.
Mr.Jenner. I see. This was from Benbrook, Tex., to Fort Worth?
Mr.Pic. Right. This address I don't remember, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Does the address 1505 Eighth Avenue, Fort Worth, refresh your recollection?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; that is it.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mr.Pic. OK. During that summer her and Mr. Ekdahl had their ins and outs.
Mr.Jenner. You were home?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. Now let's go back further than that. When we first got there I got a job for the summer at Walgreen's, and I worked there for a couple of weeks before they fired me.
Mr.Jenner. You are now 15 years old?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. And while I was working there I met this other boy, his name was Sammy, his last name I don't remember, he was from California. He was working in Walgreen's in Fort Worth, also. So, after I lost my job at Walgreen's I got this other job, assistant manager of Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor which was on Eighth Avenue, about 6 blocks from the house.
Mr.Jenner. Describe that house, please.
Mr.Pic. It was the second house from the corner. On the corner lived the McLeans who was an attorney and I think he was her attorney or his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. They had a couple of boys we became friendly with. The house itself was a brick, I remember brick with a garage in the back. I think there was an upstairs or side.
Mr.Jenner. Describe the neighborhood, please.
Mr.Pic. I would say it would be middle class.
Mr.Jenner. It was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at 4801 Victor in Dallas?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. I was assistant manager of this Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor.
Mr.Jenner. What was Robert doing?
Mr.Pic. Nothing.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't work?
Mr.Pic. I don't think so.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. That is right, he was playing around with girls at that time.
Like I said, my mother and Mr. Ekdahl were having problems. It would seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave and come back. Well, it seems one night, as I was returning from work, I think we closed the store about 10 o'clock, Mr. Ekdahl and she drove up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were going downtown to the Worth Hotel. This was one of their reunions, and this was one of their longer separation periods.
So, I went back and I told Lee and Robert, and this seemed to really elate Lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back together. Mr. Ekdahl, while Robert and I were at the academy would write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. He would send us a poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell.Well——
Mr.Jenner. I—what is your impression of Mr. Ekdahl, did Lee like him?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. That is your definite impression that he liked him.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I think Lee found in him the father he never had. He had treated him real good and I am sure that Lee felt the same way, I know he did. He felt the same way about it, because Mr. Ekdahl treated all of us like his own children.
Mr.Jenner. There appears to be in the file at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy a letter from Mr. Ekdahl to your—to you boys dated August 1946, carrying a return address of the Fayette Hotel on Third Street of Fort Worth.
Mr.Pic. I don't know, sir.
Mr.Jenner. This would be at the time when your mother was living in Covington. During that period.
Mr.Pic. I didn't know about it.
Mr.Jenner. You have no recollection of it?
Mr.Pic. I don't know where Mr. Ekdahl was when she was in Covington. I know he was in the Fort Worth-Dallas area is all I knew.
Mr.Jenner. Your mother and Ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back together again, more friendly?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I mentioned it because it impressed Lee.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Pic. I think it impressed him more than it did either of the older boys.
Mr.Jenner. Did anything else occur during that summer?
Mr.Pic. A whole bunch of stuff.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mr.Pic. I think this is the same summer when we made the raid. I don't know if you know about the raid or not.
Mr.Jenner. I don't think so.
Mr.Pic. Well, this guy Sammy that I knew had another—knew a couple, a young married couple named Marvin and Goldie, I don't remember their last names, sir, and Sammy and I were friends, Sammy lived in a downtown hotel, and Marvin and Goldie had a house somewhere in the Fort Worth area. So we became friendly the four of us, and then they would come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. Well, after they broke up again, after this last incident.
Mr.Jenner. This is still during the summer of 1947?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had strong suspicionsthat Mr. Ekdahl was seeing another woman and she was following him, I don't know how. I know she had the lead, she knew where the woman lived and everything.
So, one night Marvin, Goldie, Sammy, my mother and I all piled into this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and Sammy acted as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "Telegram" for this woman, whoever she was. I don't remember the name. When she opened the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a nightgown negligee, Mr. Ekdahl was seated in the living room in his shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. She's got him now and all this stuff. That is about it. Well, that is all to that incident.
In September, Robert—well, in August—Robert and I in September returned to Chamberlain-Hunt, this is September 1947. During the school year 1947–48 I was informed about divorce proceedings. Christmas holidays, 1947, Robert and I returned to the house on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth and those are the pictures of Lee sitting on the bike, it is in that time period.
Mr.Jenner. Let's identify those. I hand you Pic Exhibit Nos. 52 and 53.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. This is the front lawn of the house on Eighth Avenue and the white house in the background would be that of the attorney Mr. McLean.
Mr.Jenner. Did you take those pictures?
Mr.Pic. Sir?
Mr.Jenner. Did you take the pictures?
Mr.Pic. My brother Robert and I each had a box camera we received—no, we had the box camera before that. We took it with our box camera.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I offer those exhibits in evidence.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 52 and 53 were marked for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Was Mr. Ekdahl living in the home at that time?
Mr.Pic. We did not see him during those holidays.
Mr.Jenner. You returned to the academy following the Christmas vacation?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you continued on through the end of that school year, did you?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; to May 1948.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your impressions of Lee, he is now getting to be 8 or 9 years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at school.
Mr.Pic. Well, sir; when we were home, Robert and I, of course, that was the only time we seen Lee, he would tag along with us to the movies and everything. He did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and so forth. I don't remember observing him with the other children. I had my own problems at the age of 14. We did know that during the school year of 1947–48, divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly.
We returned from Chamberlain-Hunt in May 1948, to a house I don't remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class again.
Mr.Jenner. The houseat——
Mr.Pic. It was right slap next to the railroad tracks.
Mr.Jenner. 3300 Willing Street, Fort Worth.
Mr.Pic. If that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. I remember we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. She had moved in this house a couple or 3 months prior to us returning from school.
Mr.Jenner. The divorce had taken place in the meantime?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; it had not.
Mr.Jenner. Was Mr. Ekdahl in this lower class house?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see him during that summer?
Mr.Pic. No, sir—yes, sir. But not prior to May 1948. I seen him later during the summer.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. You and Robert were home during that summer of 1948, were you?
Mr.Pic. May I continue?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Pic. When we returned home I seen this house and my first impressions were that we are back to where we were. Lee had a dog that a woman had given him, I think it is the same dog we have pictures of, and I kind of had the feeling that our days at Chamberlain-Hunt were ended even though it didn't come officially. Then sometime in the summer of 1948, the divorce took place in Tarrant County, city of Fort Worth. I had to testify. I think they attempted to put Lee on the stand but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age.
I don't remember my testimony completely. I do remember that my mother had made the statement that if Mr. Ekdahl ever hit her again that she would send me in there to beat him up or, something which I doubt that I could have done.
I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is when she purchased the house in Benbrook, Tex., the little house.
Mr.Jenner. Describe that house.
Mr.Pic. It was an L-shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, Iwas——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this first house?
Mr.Pic. There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would go pick up the mail at the post office.
Mr.Jenner. The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned heretofore?
Mr.Pic. Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook.
Mr.Pic. That is the one further south of Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. That is the first one?
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer of 1948 is different from the first one?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr.Jenner. You can't remember the street address?
Mr.Pic. There was no street address. This was the first and only house built there.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Pic. They just built up this area and she got the very first house. Two pictures there, Lee and Lee's dog and this is taken at the house in Benbrook, that house.
Mr.Jenner. Would you select those, please?
Mr.Pic. These were taken in Covington.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. Those were taken when?
Mr.Pic. It would be the summer of 1946 at Covington, La.
Mr.Jenner. And those pictures are pictures of whom?
Mr.Pic. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. Holding a fish.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51 were marked for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. The witness has now handed me two pictures, Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. The other shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and an automobile. Could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? You are looking at Exhibit what now?
Mr.Pic. Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car. This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it. The house in the background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you want to call it, and laundromat in the area. This is where we did all of our food buying.
Mr.Jenner. Shopping?
Mr.Pic. As far as the neighborhood was concerned.
Mr.Jenner. There is some writing at the top of the picture; what does it say?
Mr.Pic. This says "Blackie, 1949."
Mr.Jenner. Blackie was the name of the dog?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was.
Mr.Pic. This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house.
Mr.Jenner. The house in which you lived?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.)
Mr.Pic. After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex., and then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex.
At this time Robert and I were informed that we would not return to Chamberlain-Hunt in the fall. This, I think, was the first time that I actually recall any hostility towards my mother.
Mr.Jenner. On your part?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to go back. I had 2 more years in high school and I was going to be in the 11th grade and I did want to finish there.
Mr.Jenner. How did Robert react to that?
Mr.Pic. He felt the same way, sir. He wanted to go back. But we were informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for us to go back. In fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family supplement its income.
Mr.Jenner. That is withdraw from school entirely?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I was 16 at this time. In September, Lee and Robert returned to school, and I went to work. I obtained a job at Everybody's Department Store which belonged to Leonard Bros. I was a shoe stock boy at the salary of $25 a week.
Mr.Jenner. Did you pay some of that money to your mother?
Mr.Pic. I think at least $15 out of every pay check I did.
Mr.Jenner. $15 a week?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I think my take-home pay was $22.50 after taxes. Which left me $7.50 to ride back and forth on the bus with.
Mr.Jenner. Did you continue to live in this home in Benbrook?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; about the same time that I went to work and Lee and Robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at 7408 Ewing.
Mr.Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Pic. That is right, sir. It was just impossible for her and I to go to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on Ewing they could walk to school. In fact, I left for work earlier than she did, a couple of hours, in fact.
Mr.Jenner. Had Lee attended school in Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the summer and moved out in the early fall.
Mr.Jenner. Had he attended a day school or a nursery school in Benbrook, Tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years?
Mr.Pic. During the summer, sir, my mother worked at Leonard Bros., the three boys were left alone at home.
Mr.Jenner. What about the previous years?
Mr.Pic. She didn't work the previous years. She was still married to Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr.Jenner. I appreciate that. I wonder if he went to nursery school—when you first went to Benbrook, Tex., when you were on Granbury Road?
Mr.Pic. I wouldn't know that, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You have no impression?
Mr.Pic. That I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You now started to work in the fall of 1948.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. The family moves into Fort Worth at 7408 Ewing Street.
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee and Robert enter school in Fort Worth.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct? Do you remember the school, one would be a grammar school and one a junior high school.
Mr.Pic. I think Robert went to Sterling Junior High School. In fact, she would drive him there in the morning, and Lee was going to Ridglea, West Ridglea Elementary School, something like that.
Mr.Jenner. What happened to Lee? You were working.
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Robert was in school.
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee was in school.
Mr.Pic. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Did Robert come home from school to take care of Lee when he finished?
Mr.Pic. Lee returned home before Robert did, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What did he do?
Mr.Pic. I have no idea, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Your mother was at work?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He would just come home and wait until somebody came home?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; there was no TV at that timeso——
Mr.Jenner. Was he—what about his habits in that respect? Did—your mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house until she arrived?
Mr.Pic. I am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. He was not the type to goof off in things like this.
Mr.Jenner. Did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy reading at this stage of his life?
Mr.Pic. He always read a lot, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He did?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What about his—was he gregarious or not? Did he exhibit tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or the contrary?
Mr.Pic. Not too much, sir. There weren't that many children his age in the neighborhood. In fact, most of them were my age and my brother Robert's.
Mr.Jenner. Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9.
Mr.Pic. We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.
In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, andmy mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income.So——
Mr.Jenner. Did you get paid for this service?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.