Mr.Greener. That is my impression; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. As we discussed briefly off the record before we started, it appears that there are three possibilities concerning this tag. One, in view of the fact that Mr. Ryder is quite clear in his own mind that he never worked on an Italian rifle similar to the one that was found in the Texas School Book Depository, we can conclude either that the Oswald on the tag was Lee Oswald and he brought a different rifle in here, or it was a different Oswald who brought another rifle in here, or that the tag is not a genuine tag, and that there never was a man who came in here with any gun at all. Can you think of any other possibilities?
Mr.Greener. That about covers the situation, it looks to me like.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any opinion as to what the real situation is?
Mr.Greener. Nothing more than I have confidence in the boy, or I wouldn't have him working for me.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't think he would make this tag up to cause a lot of commotion?
Mr.Greener. I don't think so. He doesn't seem like that type boy. I have lots of confidence in him or I wouldn't have him working for me and handling money. Especially times I am going off. He—if he wasn't the right kind of boy, and he pretty well proved he is by dependability and in all the relations that we have together, and I just don't figure that is possible. Now I say I don't figure that. Of course, there is always possibilities of everything, but I don't feel that way.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't feel Ryder would do that?
Mr.Greener. Not at all; no.
Mr.Liebeler. When we look at this tag, it appears in the photograph that it is in two parts. There is a top part entitled "Repair Tag," on which writing appears, reading "Oswald, drill and tap, $4.50. Boresight, $1.50." Or a total of $6. And it appears at the lower part of the tag; it is in the form of a claim check; isn't that correct?
Mr.Greener. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. The tag number, as I have indicated, is 18374. Would I be correct in assuming that if this tag had been made up when a customer came in and left their rifle, that the part of the tag entitled "Claim Check" would ordinarily have been torn off and given to the customer?
Mr.Greener. No; you are wrong in assuming that. Because I believe 19 out of 20 would not ask for a claim check. In the first place, 18 out of that 20 would lose the claim check before they got back, so if you are going to give them a claim check and stick to the thing, not letting them have the merchandise if they don't have the claimcheck——
Mr.Liebeler. You are running into a lot of trouble from a business point of view?
Mr.Greener. Yes; when they come back for the merchandise, I ask them what the name is, and if we have a gun to go by thename——
Mr.Liebeler. Do you ordinarily tear off the claim check?
Mr.Greener. No. If you look at the rack, you won't find one on the whole rack that has a claim check that has been torn off.
Mr.Liebeler. There isn't any way you can tell from the number when the check was issued?
Mr.Greener. No, because we got the tags dumped into a box, and we reach in and get a tag and tie it onto the merchandise and fill it out.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to show you some pictures that have previously been marked in another part of these proceedings as Commission Exhibits Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, and ask you if you recall ever seeing the person or persons depicted in these pictures?
Mr.Greener. No; I don't believe I could identify him as ever having any dealings. Now there is a familiarity there, but I couldn't tie it with anything or anybody.
Mr.Liebeler. You couldn't figure out in your mind why you think there is a familiarity to those pictures?
Mr.Greener. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you ever seen those pictures before?
Mr.Greener. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Has the FBI or Dallas Police Department ever shown you pictures and asked you to identify them?
Mr.Greener. No; they haven't shown me pictures of anyone for identification.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to show you another picture which is a photograph that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, a photograph of an individual on a street, and one of them has been indicated by a green mark on the picture, and ask you to examine that picture and tell me if you have ever seen that man before?
Mr.Greener. Not that I can recall now.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you another photograph of a street scene which has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that photograph? Two of them have been marked with a green marker, but don't confine your attention entirely to those two individuals. Tell me if you recognize any of the people in that picture?
Mr.Greener. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Particularly I call your attention to the man who was standing immediately to the left of the man who is marked with the "X," rather than the line, not immediately, to the left of him, then, but the second man to the left. He is standing there with a tie and he has some papers in his hand. Does he look familiar to you at all?
Mr.Greener. No.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you another picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C, and ask you if you can recall ever having seen that man?
Mr.Greener. I don't recall.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize that man in the picture?
Mr.Greener. According to the other pictures in the paper, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who does it look like to you?
Mr.Greener. It looks like Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. But you don't ever remember having seen him?
Mr.Greener. No; my mental pictures are not hardly as good as it used to be. You take fooling with people day in and day out, without some reason to recognize them, the next time you see them—there is a reason for it, you don't make a mental picture of every person that comes in. If he was 6'6" and weighed 300 pounds, or gave you some trouble when he comes for his merchandise, then it is likely you would remember, but a guy just comes in and tells you what he wants done, and comes back, and gets his merchandise and doesn't give you any trouble, then you don't remember. Usually I never forget a face. Now, the first picture you showed me, there was something there, but I couldn't pin it to anything, though.
Mr.Liebeler. I am marking two photographs of a rifle as Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. I have initialed both photographs for the purpose of identification, and I would like to have you initial them, too, so we don't get confused as to which picture we are looking at.
Mr.Greener. Both of them?
Mr.Liebeler. Both of them, please. These are pictures of a rifle. I would like to have you examine it and tell me whether you have ever seen that rifle or one similar to it.
Mr.Greener. No; I don't remember this rifle at all. The first Italian rifle that I remember seeing was in Worland, Wyo. A friend pulled his out, and that is the first Italian rifle that I ever recall having seen.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that subsequent to the assassination?
Mr.Greener. That was while we were on the trip.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember ever having seen a rifle like this in the shop here?
Mr.Greener. No; I sure don't.
Mr.Liebeler. I have taken the first two exhibits and marked them Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, on your deposition, and I have initialed both of them and I would like to have you initial them also for the purpose of identification.
Mr.Greener. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. Have you made any attempt on your own part to try to figure out how this tag came to be in your shop?
Mr.Greener. No; really I haven't inquired any at all on that. I inquired about the reporter deal, but I didn't inquire into anything at all about the tag, because I just assumed it was all open and above board and didn't go into it at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Now we have talked previously about the three possibilities that could possibly explain this tag, and you have told us that you don't think that Ryder is the kind of guy who would write the tag up after the fact just to cause a commotion.
There are two other possibilities. One, was that Lee Oswald had a different rifle in here. And the other is that there is a different Oswald involved. Do you have any opinion as to which of those possibilities might be correct?
Mr.Greener. No; it would just bea——
Mr.Liebeler. Wild speculation?
Mr.Greener. Very wild. Very wild speculation.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you told me before that you had been interviewed several times by the FBI and by the Dallas police force. Can you think of any questions that they asked you or things they discussed with you that we haven't covered here?
Mr.Greener. No; I can't. It seems that we have gone into it far deeper than they ever did, the Dallas police or the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that I should have asked you or that you can add that would help clear this situation up?
Mr.Greener. No; sure can't.
Mr.Liebeler. I have no further questions at this point, Mr. Greener. If you can't think of anything else that you think is appropriate to add to the record, I think we will terminate the deposition at this point. I want to thank you very much for the time you have given and the cooperation you have shown. I know you have been talked to about this a lot of times. I appreciate the cooperation you have shown the Commission, and I thank you very much.
Mr.Greener. We have tried to cooperate with them all the way through. When they continued to come back and ask the same questions and get me out of bed and all at 11 or 12 o'clock at night and get a tag they had looked at three or four times, I began to get a little bit aggravated.
Mr. Ryder and I have always been interested in helping them in any way we could with any information we could give. I don't feel that he is the type boy to do that. Of course, that again is people are involved.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, you have known the boy a long time and you should be in a position to make that kind of judgment?
Mr.Greener. That is what he is. He has been a mighty fine boy and he is just an extraordinary boy. There is not many like him, and I would trust him with anything that I have to be done, and it just never struck me as him being that kind of boy.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you a couple of other questions about rifles and sights. I know you do have a meeting at 12:30.
Mr.Greener. No; it was 12.
Mr.Liebeler. I thought it was 12:30. I am sorry you are not going to make the meeting. You may have read in the newspapers that Oswald purchased this Italian rifle, or was supposed to have purchased it from a mail-order house in Chicago, with the telescopic sight mounted on the rifle at that time?
Mr.Greener. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. In your opinion, based on your experience in this field, do you think that a rifle that had been purchased from a mail-order house that is shipped through the mails with a scope mounted on it would be in a condition to fire accurately at that point without any further sighting in of the rifle by firing it?
Mr.Greener. The possibility of it being, especially with this frail mount is, I am sure that that mount, according to what little information I have, the possibility of it being real accurate would be pretty small, I think.
I think the gun would be—I think even a fellow that was going to go deer hunting would want to take the gun out and shoot it before he went hunting, and I think that holds very true with this case, regardless of whether we mounted the scope or who mounted it or it come mounted. I think the man would fire it before using it.
Mr.Liebeler. You feel that because you don't think that a rifle would be able to be fired accurately unless it had been sighted?
Mr.Greener. The possibility would be small that it would be real accurate; and you talk to most any of the fellows that go hunting, regardless of how expensive a mount they may have on the gun, he is going to take it and fire it before he goes hunting. That holds true in 99 percent of the cases.
The only reason not to would be the fact the man was in a real big hurry, he picked it up late in the afternoon and he was going to Colorado and was getting there after the season and he was going to shoot and just take his chances. Otherwise, he would take the gun out and fire it, 99 out of 100, and fire it.
Mr.Liebeler. Would that be true even if it had been boresighted?
Mr.Greener. Yes; because actually the boresighting with the tools that we use, the accuracy of the thing on the windage part of it is very accurate, but as far as distance, different guns will travel a flatter trajectory than other guns will, and there is no calibration on the sighting tools that tell us that you can sight the gun in on target, that it is on 60 or 140 or 270 or 308. There is no calibration for that.
Mr.Liebeler. No calibration for the boresighting machine?
Mr.Greener. No; you have the crosshairs and you line the two of them up, and that is approximately 100 or 125 yards range, but different guns will vary as to the trajectory, and one might hit the target and one be a little high andanother a little low, so that is the reason the man takes his gun and shoots it in as far as the elevation is concerned. He can zero it in to what distance he wants to shoot it at.
Mr.Liebeler. That would have to be done, as you have indicated, even if the rifle had been boresighted?
Mr.Greener. That's right. It would be accurate as far as elevation. The windage part is usually right on target, but the elevation has to do with caliber.
As far as your 6.5 Italian gun is concerned, there is only two types. One is the hand load, and one is the military ammunition. Because there is none of the major ammunition manufacturers that builds a sporting load for that gun, so it either has to be a hand load or old Italian or military ammunition, and the hand load has to do with what size bullet and the power you get, and it would be more important on that gun to shoot it than it would any other caliber or of an American make that you get your larger manufacturers of ammunition loading for.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any 6.5 ammunition in your shop?
Mr.Greener. Not 6.5 Italian.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever had?
Mr.Greener. We have a 6.5 Swedish and 6.5 Jap, and I believe that is all of these 6.5's.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you do reloading of casings?
Mr.Greener. No.
Mr.Liebeler. The fellow has to do that himself?
Mr.Greener. We sell the components and the loading equipment but we don't do any loading. The only one that I have been able to find out so far that hand loads 6.5 Italian—I don't think this is a possibility, but Ray Acker with Bell Telephone is the only one I know that does any hand loading on 6.5 Italians.
Mr.Liebeler. He works for Bell Telephone Co.?
Mr.Greener. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. He does this as a part-time occupation?
Mr.Greener. Hobby; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to him about this case at all?
Mr.Greener. No; I don't guess I have ever called him. How I came to know that he reloads, and I don't know to what extent that he reloads, but I called one of my suppliers as to the availability of 6.5 Italian, and he gave me his name, so that is the reason but I can't say, but as far as I know, he is the only one that loads 6.5. There may be others that buy their own dies and hand loading, more especially since there are more guns coming out, but that would be, oh, a year and a half ago when I was told that he hand loaded 6.5 Italians.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you need a particular kind of equipment to reload shells?
Mr.Greener. Very definitely.
Mr.Liebeler. Does the equipment vary with the caliber of the shell?
Mr.Greener. Very definitely. The presses usually will accept all the different calibers, and then you have to have your die sets.
Mr.Liebeler. To pour it?
Mr.Greener. You've got to have your shell holders, and your die holder that resizes the brass and inserts the bullet into it, the bullet seating and there is only one caliber that one set of dies will load. If you load a 6.5 die, you have to have 6.5 dies. If you load .30-06, you have to have .30-06, and you can't have any part of the two on the different calibers of ammunition.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, thank you again, and we appreciate your cooperation.
The testimony of Gertrude Hunter, was taken at 5:50 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Hunter, would you stand please and take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Hunter. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Pursuant to the rules governing the taking of testimony by the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney here if you wish and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of the hearing. You are not required to answer at this time any questions that you think might be incriminating or involve some other privilege, of course. Most of the witnesses don't have an attorney and I see you don't have one here so I assume you want to proceed with the questioning without an attorney being present, is that correct?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your name for the record, please?
Mrs.Hunter. Gertrude Hunter.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs.Hunter. 141 South Hastings, Irving, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you lived in Irving?
Mrs.Hunter. I think it was 2 years the 14th of July—right at—between the 8th and 14th—I don't know the exact dates, but it was 2 years.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you married, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any children?
Mrs.Hunter. Four girls.
Mr.Liebeler. How old are they?
Mrs.Hunter. Twenty-five, twenty-one, nineteen, and sixteen.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born?
Mrs.Hunter. Jacksonville, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. And you have lived most of your life in Texas?
Mrs.Hunter. Oh, yes; all my life.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Mrs. Edith Whitworth?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you known her?
Mrs.Hunter. Oh, ever since I came to Irving. We are football fans together.
Mr.Liebeler. You came to Irving about 2 years ago?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; in July.
Mr.Liebeler. It appears from information that has been provided to us by the FBI that you were in a store operated by Mrs. Whitworth sometime in 1963—that was formerly operated by Mrs. Whitworth—at which time people who you now believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife and children came into the store, is that correct?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us all the circumstances surrounding that event as best you can remember them?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, it was after 2 o'clock and I had went down to talk to her—we were planning on a football trip and we were just sitting there in the store talking, discussing football games, and who was going with who and all, and this man drove up out in front of the store and he got out and he come in and he asked for a gunsmith.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see the car drive up?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see who was driving it?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this man driving it?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How many people were in the car?
Mrs.Hunter. Just him and a woman and two children.
Mr.Liebeler. Nobody else?
Mrs.Hunter. No one else.
Mr.Liebeler. You are quite sure about that?
Mrs.Hunter. I'm positive, because I was sitting right there—I was sitting this way and the door was right here [indicating], and he drove cater-cornered up.
Mr.Liebeler. And there are glass windows in the front of the store so that you could see right out into the street?
Mrs.Hunter. It is a solid glass there and the door was standing open there.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know about what kind of car it was?
Mrs.Hunter. Now, the reason I'm definite about the car—a friend of mine in Houston—I was looking for them up and they had a car just like this and I had left a note on my mailbox that I would be at this place—telling them if anyone come I would be at this place and when they drove up I thought that was them and it was a two-tone blue Ford.
Mr.Liebeler. What year?
Mrs.Hunter. 1957 or 1958—I won't be positive about that, but I would rather say it was about a 1957, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. From which direction did this car drive up?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, now, where the car come from—I don't know whether it come up Jefferson or down Irving Boulevard, but I know that it did park into the front of the store where I was sitting, you know, I was talking and I wasn't paying any attention to which way the car came from. The only thing I seen is the driver, when he drove up, and I seen the color of the car, I started to get up because I thought it was my friends from Houston, and I looked and seen that it wasn't and he just got out and come in. She didn't get out at that time. He come in and asked for the gunsmith, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm not positive, but it seems to me like, because I was thinking that so many different times that they would come in—whether he had something in his hand or whether he didn't, but I know he went back to the car, and if he did, he put it in the car and when he come back in, she got out and followed him in, but he didn't help her out of the car, he didn't help her with the kids or nothing. She just followed him in.
Mr.Liebeler. Is the furniture store that Mrs. Whitworth operated at that time at the intersection of Jefferson Street and Irving Boulevard, is that right?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; you come right in to Jefferson and Irving Boulevard. It used to be the bus station—the Continental Bus Station.
Mr.Liebeler. And they had diagonal parking on that street? Is that the way you parked?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, you see, it was where the buses used to park clean off the street to get out of the way of the traffic, you see, and you just come up with the nose right up and you would be out of the traffic.
Mr.Liebeler. Out of the main street?
Mrs.Hunter. Just like this here was the store [indicating], well, it was over this way and he just kind of cater-cornered up this way.
Mr.Liebeler. So, he parked his car diagonally in front of the store and got out and came in?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What happened after he went back out and they came back into the store?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, he just come in and she was over when her desk was there and he asked her about some furniture or something and they walked and went back to the back and this woman, she followed them and this young baby and the new baby.
Mr.Liebeler. This man asked Mrs. Whitworth about some furniture?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And Mrs. Whitworth and this man walked toward the back of the store and the woman and the children followed them; is that right?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; but she wasn't—now, listen, she didn't pay any attention and this lady had had a new grandbaby.
Mr.Liebeler. You mean Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs.Hunter. Mrs. Whitworth's daughter and she says, "Let me trade you a boy for this girl and we will both have a boy and girl." Well, they didn't offerto show the baby or nothing and she didn't say anything. We thought it was very funny and we discussed it after she walked out—about her not being interested in showing her new baby, and, of course, I didn't say anything to them, only I did see the little girl and so forth. I didn't put my hands on her or nothing and I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying at the back. All I know is that they were looking at some furniture there, back there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did this man Oswald say anything about how old the little baby was?
Mrs.Hunter. He said something to her but he was back far enough that what he said to her—I don't know—it was about 2 weeks old or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. This is Mrs. Whitworth you are talking about now, or Oswald?
Mrs.Hunter. Oswald; and she asked Oswald something about the babies and I don't remember just what he said to her, but it was something about the baby, you know, and he didn't seem too enthused about that either.
Mr.Liebeler. But you didn't hear Oswald say anything to Mrs. Whitworth about how old the baby was?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, I won't be positive—it's been so long—just what he answered her, but just not looking for nothing—I didn't say too much about it, but we just thought it was a coincidence about him not being interested in us seeing the new baby. I think he did tell her when it was born; I'm not positive.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you fix for us the date on which this occurred?
Mrs.Hunter. Oh, no; not right offhand. All I know is that it was before the football game—I believe the Richland Hills football game and it was on a Wednesday or a Thursday—I won't say positive which one.
Mr.Liebeler. How can you say it was on a Wednesday or Thursday?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, I never did go down to the store only on Wednesdays or Thursdays afternoons—-only the days that we had charters, and I went down on Friday afternoon.
Mr.Liebeler. On the days you had charters; what do you mean by that?
Mrs.Hunter. Charter buses to go.
Mr.Liebeler. To go to the football game?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have a charter bus to go to the football game at Richland Hills?
Mrs.Hunter. No; we went in cars that night and that night I would always wait until my daughter calls at 2 o'clock. When she would call, then I would go down to the store and that's the reason I definitely know it was after 2 o'clock.
Mr.Liebeler. Which daughter is this that you are talking about?
Mrs.Hunter. Glenda.
Mr.Liebeler. And what is her last name?
Mrs.Hunter. Hunter.
Mr.Liebeler. How old is she?
Mrs.Hunter. She's 19.
Mr.Liebeler. And does she live with you at home?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How does it come that she calls you at 2 o'clock?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, her lunch break—she gets her lunch break from 1 until 2 and she would always call me just a minute or two before she goes back to work—just a few seconds—every day before she goes to work.
Mr.Liebeler. Does she work here in Dallas?
Mrs.Hunter. At Commercial Title.
Mr.Liebeler. She always calls you at about 2 o'clock; is that right?
Mrs.Hunter. Between—she has to be back at her desk at 2. She will call me anywhere, you know, when it's handy—if she comes up in town to eat, it may be about 10 minutes until 2. If she takes her lunch and eats there, it may be 15 minutes to 2, but I would always wait—I would give her a chance to call me before I would leave and I never would leave before 2 o'clock.
Mr.Liebeler. How late in the afternoon could it have been, you think, that these people did come?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, I would say between 2:30 and 3:30, because I never did stay gone past 4 o'clock. My daughter comes in from school and she didn'thave any way to get in the house. I locked the house and she would get to the house before 4 and I would try to be back at the house before 4 and there was just one or two evenings that I didn't get to the house before she come in.
Mr.Liebeler. You say you would always try to get back home by 4 o'clock?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; so I could unlock the door.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear the conversation between Mrs. Whitworth and this man who came in about the gun?
Mrs.Hunter. He just asked for the gunsmith and she told him the gunsmith had moved down the street and she went out in front and pointed down to where to go and told him where to go and showed him where it was at. I didn't go out the door. I was just sitting in a platform rocker and he thanked her and he just went back to the car.
Mr.Liebeler. And after he went back to the car, then, they all came back again and went in the store?
Mrs.Hunter. He came back in and then her and the children got out and followed him in.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Mrs. Whitworth told him where the gunshop that used to be in the furniture store had moved or did she direct him to another gunshop?
Mrs.Hunter. No; she told him that this man had gone and she thought he was down in those sport shops or some kind of a shop down the street, or that there was one down there.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you familiar with where it is?
Mrs.Hunter. She was over at the front and I was back here, but I heard the conversation, you know, what he was asking for and all that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether he had anything in his hands when he came in?
Mrs.Hunter. It seems to me like—I'm not positive—that he had something and it come to me that it was wrapped in brown paper. Now, I'm not positive about that, but it was just something like you handle—he didn't have it up in his arms—he just had it in his hands.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea how long the package was, or do you remember that clearly?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I just remember there was something in his hands.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know where the Irving Sport Shop is located?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I sure don't—I have never been there.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Mr. Woodrow Greener?
Mrs.Hunter. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Dial Ryder?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I don't know too many people, I guess, you would call me selfish, but I don't know too many people in Irving—period. There are just a very few that I know—just the grocery store where we trade and the man that runs the bus station and Mrs. Whitworth and one or two I met going to the football games—I have been there 2 years.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anybody else in the store during the time these people were there?
Mrs.Hunter. No; just me and her.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mrs. Oswald say anything while she was in the store?
Mrs.Hunter. I never did hear her open her mouth.
Mr.Liebeler. How did the little girl, the 2-year-old, behave? Was she well behaved?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; she just went along holding her her mother's dresstail. He didn't help her with either one of the babies and she was walking along. You know, she is kind of shy and it was in a strange place and she was kind of holding to her mother's coattail when they were up there where I was at—where the table went around and I don't know—I just—they was kind of dressed bummy or something—I don't know what you would call it. She was kind of clean. He looked pretty nice. I just thought—why was she dressed like that—you know how you will notice that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear the little girl say anything at all to her mother or her father?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I didn't hear her say anything. Now, when they went downthe aisle, nearly to where Mrs. Whitworth and this man was, she looked down at her and said something, but I didn't understand what she said. She kind of whispered it to her. Now, I don't know what she said or—she said shhh—or something like that to her—I didn't understand, but she did look down.
Mr.Liebeler. The mother did look down to the little girl?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long were these people in the store altogether—the family in the store altogether?
Mrs.Hunter. Oh, I don't know—I would be scared to say about that, because, not expecting anything—they come and went so much in there—I didn't pay no attention to about how long they was in there.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you along with them when they were looking at the furniture?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I was sitting in the platform rocker.
Mr.Liebeler. But the woman went back and looked at furniture with her husband?
Mrs.Hunter. No; she didn't—that's what I say—she just walked along there and she didn't pay that furniture any mind.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any feeling that there was any argument going on between them or hostility between them or anything like that?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, now, I just think to myself—what is he looking at that for, she isn't interested. That's just the opinion that I got.
Mr.Liebeler. You thought he seemed to be much more interested in the furniture than she did?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it seem strange to you that these people were in the store there for the period of time that they were and there was not a single word exchanged between this man and woman?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I didn't think nothing about that. I don't know—I don't pay too much attention to anything like that, because while they were back there, I got up and got out of my chair before they went back to the car and walked to the door, and was standing looking out the door up toward the bus that comes in for people to get off of, and I didn't pay them any more mind until they went out to get in the car.
Mr.Liebeler. So, they went out and got in the car and what happened then?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, when they got in the car—he said something to her, but I couldn't hear that because I was standing in the door and he turned like he was going to go back down that way and I said, "Don't go that way, it's a one-way street, you'll have to go through the red light and turn left." And he looked at me and he didn't say thank you or nothing and he just backed out and went on down and I watched him—he turned at the red light—turned down Main Street.
Mr.Liebeler. He drove east down Irving Boulevard; is that right?
Mrs.Hunter. He was going down toward Plymouth Park, I believe it was west—it's a one-way street and you have to go out and come down south.
Mr.Liebeler. Which way does Irving Boulevard run—it runs east and west, doesn't it?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; I would say that it did.
Mr.Liebeler. And it's a one-way street, and it's a one-way street running toward the west; is it not?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So, that he got into thecar——
Mrs.Hunter. He got in the car and backed out here and he acted like he was going to turn this way and I said, "Uh-uh, don't go back that way, that's a one-way street and you will have to go down here to the red light and turn to the left," and he went down and turned down Main Street to the left.
Mr.Liebeler. He went down the street against the traffic, going the wrong direction?
Mrs.Hunter. No; he went down with the traffic, down toward Plymouth Park. I would say he drove west with the one-way traffic. He was going to go back opposite, and he went on down to the red light on Main Street and turned to the left. Now, where he went to from there, I don't know. I didn't pay him anymind because I was standing there watching some women coming down the street.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say he was going to go back there—you mean in the direction of Dallas, don't you?
Mrs.Hunter. That's what I would figure, because he would have to turn, unless he thought he was going to turn and go back down Jefferson, if he come in Jefferson, but I don't know that he come in Jefferson. He couldn't have done that—he would have gotten a ticket for that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, let's see if we can establish it between ourselves here, first, for this discussion, which way Irving Boulevard runs. When you come toward Irving from Dallas, it runs—Irving Boulevard runs in the direction away from Dallas, doesn't it, toward the west?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, the man got in the car and he drove west in the direction of the traffic down Irving Boulevard?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And turned at the red light on Main Street?
Mrs.Hunter. He turned left.
Mr.Liebeler. He turned left at the intersection of Main and Irving Boulevard?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And that's the last you saw of the car?
Mrs.Hunter. That's the last I seen of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did this man seem to have any difficulty driving the car as far as you could tell?
Mrs.Hunter. No; not that I could tell.
Mr.Liebeler. You have discussed this whole question, I am sure, with Mrs. Whitworth from time to time since it happened, haven't you?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, not too much. When they come on television and we noticed who it was—I don't know—let me see if I can remember the first time I seen him on television—I wasn't watching it when the President got killed and I didn't know anything about it until way after it happened.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first get the idea that those people that had been in the store were the Oswalds?
Mrs.Hunter. When I seen them on television, and I just says to whatever was sitting there, I said, "That man was down in the furniture store the other day."
Mr.Liebeler. Who was it in the room?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, it was just one of the kids I don't know—I forgot now which one of them it was, but we were sitting in the house and I said, "That man on television was down at the furniture store the other day," and it was after he got killed that they showed her, I believe, and I recognized her.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you recognize these people as soon as you saw them and prior to the time you discussed it with Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, now, I don't know just how soon—I couldn't be positive just how quick now—I done forgot—that I talked to her after that, but it was after I seen him on television that we discussed it a little bit and all, because after they fixed her up, she was pretty and we did discuss that—the difference she looks now and her down there in the store.
Mr.Liebeler. You mean she does—you think she does look different now?
Mrs.Hunter. Oh, yes; she's pretty now. She looked awful down there in that store.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think you would recognize her as the same person if you saw her again?
Mrs.Hunter. I doubt it—very seriously.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't think you would recognize her?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I sure don't, not from the way she looked in that store that day and the way she looks now. Now, that's how much difference there was and I generally notice anyone by their eyes quicker than anything else.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you notice that she looked different?
Mrs.Hunter. Oh—itwas——
Mr.Liebeler. Is that when you saw her on television after the assassination?
Mrs.Hunter. No; the first time I seen her, she looked just common, just like she did down there at the store that day, and I guess it was when they fixed her up—it must have been after the funeral and she was meeting with these people or something, because it was quite a discussion about how pretty she was and why she let herself go before, because we had discussed it that maybe he didn't want her to fix up or something.
Mr.Liebeler. How long was it after the assassination that you noticed this difference between Marina Oswald as she appeared on television and in the paper?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, now, you may think I'm funny, but I didn't pay no attention at all to that television—my television wasn't on when he got killed or the parade or nothing. I was sitting at the table and after it happened, I wouldn't watch the television—I didn't watch none of the burial procedures or anything—any of that.
Mr.Liebeler. But at some point you noticed that Marina Oswald looked different than she had the day she was in the store?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. My question is, when did you first notice that?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, it was undoubtedly quite a few days or several days after Oswald—after Jack Ruby killed Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. As much as a week after that?
Mrs.Hunter. Well—it was just after that—I wouldn't say just definite what time it was, because, you don't notice anything like that. Naturally, it's going to pop in your mind when you do notice something like that, but just as soon as I seen her fixed up on TV, I just noticed it was quite a difference of how she looked then and before.
Mr.Liebeler. You think it was within a week after the time Ruby shot Oswald, is that right?
Mrs.Hunter. I wouldn't say—not now, it has been too long ago.
Mr.Liebeler. But you now do have some doubt in your mind after having seen her as to whether you would even recognize her as the same person that was in the store, is that right?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, with the way her features looked on television now and the way I seen her in the store—yes; because she dresses nice and she's real cute. She dresses cute and she was sloppy in the store that day.
Mr.Liebeler. Her face hasn't changed any, has it, she has the same face.
Mrs.Hunter. Oh, her hair makes a difference now. I might recognize her—I wouldn't say I wouldn't or I would, but I don't know—I've made the remark two or three times that she doesn't look like she did the day I seen her in the store.
Mr.Liebeler. But you still don't have any doubt in your mind that it actually was she that was in the store the day you saw her?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, I will say this, that the one I seen in the store and the first time I seen her on television the first time was the same woman—let's put it that way.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell anybody that Oswald actually turned down Irving Boulevard and went against the traffic when he came out of the store and went against the traffic?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, no; I didn't tell them that he went east. I told them he started to turn east and I told him he was going the wrong direction and he would have to turn back. Now, that woman from England that camehere—
Mr.Liebeler. Were you there that day she came?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; she come to my house that night.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what you told her about that?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, just the same thing—about the same thing I have told you, because that's about all I know. I might have remembered a few different little points then that have slipped my mind now, but that's just like what I told you, I guess a few little ends and odds have slipped, but that's just about all I know, because I wasn't expecting that and I wasn't looking for nothing like that and I just didn't think too much about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mrs. Whitworth see these people get in the car and drive away, do you know?
Mrs.Hunter. I don't know, because she was on that side where they come out and I was on this—at a door standing in the door.
Mr.Liebeler. You were closer to the door than Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I was closer to the car than she was. She was back down here where they generally went into the store.
Mr.Liebeler. She was further away from the front door where the car was parked than you were?
Mrs.Hunter. Now, I don't know whether she was in the door or not. I have never discussed it with her.
Mr.Liebeler. And you have never told Mrs. Whitworth that this man got in the car and drove the wrong way down the street?
Mrs.Hunter. The only thing that—I says, "He started to go back down Irving Boulevard." I did say that to her one day because it was a one-way street and he was going the wrong way then.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think if we have Mrs. Oswald come in here next Friday morning and you come in and look at her and the children too, do you think you would be able to come here and tell us if they were the people that were in that store?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, I wouldn't say—I just wouldn't say.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, we have asked Mrs. Whitworth to come in—to come back Friday morning at 9 o'clock and we will have Mrs. Oswald and the babies come in and we would like for you to come back to see if they were the people in the store. Would you be willing to do that?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes; I will be willing to do it, but now, it's like I say—I wouldn't say I would recognize her now because she is pretty now.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think she would recognize you, do you think she would remember being in the store if she had really been in there?
Mrs.Hunter. I wouldn't know that—that's her—I don't know because I never did interfere with the people that come in there to do business with her or I I never did say anything to them and I never did answer her telephone or nothing at that business. I was just sitting in there talking to her.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me suspend with the questioning now, Mrs. Hunter, until Friday morning.
Mrs.Hunter. This Friday morning?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; day after tomorrow. You and Mrs. Whitworth can come back at that time and we will bring Mrs. Oswald here.
Mrs.Hunter. That's all right. She is pretty now but she wasn't then.
Mr.Liebeler. Before you go, I want to show you some pictures here and ask you if you recognize any of the people in them. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A and ask if you recognize anybody in that picture.
Mrs.Hunter. Well, just not offhand—not, no; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. I will ask you the same question with regard to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B.
Mrs.Hunter. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs.Hunter. No.
Mr.Liebeler. The same question with respect to Bringuier Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs.Hunter. No; not dressed like that—I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 177 and ask if you recognize anybody in that picture.
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You are pointing to a woman that's holding a child.
Mrs.Hunter. I don't know what she's holding—I can't tell that.
Mr.Liebeler. Anyway, there is a woman sitting there in a chair?
Mrs.Hunter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. As we face the picture, it's on the farthest left, is that right, and who is that?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, that looks like her a little bit—but she's got her hair fixed still different than she had it in the store that day.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the man sitting right next to her, does he look like the man that was in the store that day?
Mrs.Hunter. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't think he resembles the man that was in the store?
Mrs.Hunter. No; that's not him, and that's Mrs. Oswald. That may be a brother, but that's not him. I never did see his brother because I didn't watch none of that. I just didn't want to live with it.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that looks like anybody you have ever seen before.
Mrs.Hunter. Well, now, looking from up this way it could be—from here up—it could be.
Mr.Liebeler. You think that that resembles the man who was in the store somewhat?
Mrs.Hunter. I would say he's kind of built that way.
Mr.Liebeler. What about Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C, does that look like the man who was in the store?
Mrs.Hunter. Well, it could look like him some, but he was not dressed that way.
Mr.Liebeler. You are not sure that that was him?
Mrs.Hunter. No; I wouldn't say it was with him dressed that way because I didn't have that much hankering to really tell what he really looked like and it has been so long since I've seen it on the television that I wouldn't guarantee that—not looking for nothing.
Mr.Liebeler. All right, thank you very much. We will see you on Friday.