(S)Alexander Kleinlerer,Alexander Kleinlerer.
(S)Alexander Kleinlerer,Alexander Kleinlerer.
(S)Alexander Kleinlerer,Alexander Kleinlerer.
The testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson was taken at 11 a.m., on May 28, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel, and Richard M. Mosk, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr.Jenner. Would you be sworn?
Mrs. Gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs.Gibson. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Be seated, please. You are Mrs. Donald Gibson?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You are the former Alexandra De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you were at one time married to Mr. Gary Taylor, of Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You now live in Wingdale, N.Y.?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is your address in Wingdale?
Mrs.Gibson. Harlem Valley State Hospital, Building 28, Wingdale, N.Y.
Mr.Jenner. I take it you are employed at the hospital?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is a State mental institution?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is your husband also employed there?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Our information is that you were born on Christmas Day 1943?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. That was here in the United States?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. New York, to be exact?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. So that you are now 20 years of age and will be 21 next December?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your father is George Sergei De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your stepmother is Jeanne Fomenko De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. F-o-m-e-n-k-o?
Mrs.Gibson. I didn't know that.
Mr.Jenner. Also at one point in her life, Jeanne Bogoiavlensky; is that correct?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; Bogoiavlensky.
Mr.Jenner. You were a resident of Dallas, Tex., in 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You were then married to Gary Taylor?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was your address?
Mrs.Gibson. 3519 Fairmount.
Mr.Jenner. You married Mr. Taylor at a very early age as I recall?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When was that?
Mrs.Gibson. November 21, 1959.
Mr.Jenner. I don't care for the details, but after you married Mr. Taylor, you and he lived in various places in Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. What was the nature of his employment?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, he did all sorts of things. He went to school at one time, to college.
Mr.Jenner. In Dallas?
Mrs.Gibson. No; in Arlington. We lived in Arlington, too.
Mr.Jenner. What college was that?
Mrs.Gibson. Arlington State. I can't recall all the jobs he did. I mean he did a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
Mr.Jenner. Let's get to 1962. What was he doing then?
Mrs.Gibson. He was working off and on with a photographer, working on a movie, and driving a taxi part time. He also, he and this friend of his, Steve Moore, were trying to found this little company of landscaping. That didn't work out, so he still kept on his photography business.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall his first name?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, itis——
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall his birthday?
Mrs.Gibson. December 24, I think 1939.
Mr.Jenner. So he was older, 4 years older than you?
Mrs.Gibson. He was 4 years older than me; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. I take it you were subsequently divorced?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. You and Mr. Taylor. And when was that?
Mrs.Gibson. Our divorce became final, I believe, the 15th of April of last year.
Mr.Jenner. Of 1963?
Mrs.Gibson. 1963.
Mr.Jenner. I take it there is a waiting period then?
Mrs.Gibson. Three months.
Mr.Jenner. So the decree was entered the 15th of January?
Mrs.Gibson. I really don't know. I didn't enter it. I left Dallas and asked him to please divorce me.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Gibson. I didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a divorce; no. I wanted to get out of Dallas right then.
Mr.Jenner. Were you living together as man and wife during all of the year 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. Until November, the last part of November of 1962; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Had you been separated prior to that time?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; in 1961, I believe.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a child?
Mrs.Gibson. One child.
Mr.Jenner. Born of that marriage?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that child's name?
Mrs.Gibson. Curtis Lee Taylor.
Mr.Jenner. When was that child born?
Mrs.Gibson. February 10, 1962.
Mr.Jenner. While living at 3519 Fairmount in Dallas during the year 1962, did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With whom did you become acquainted first?
Mrs.Gibson. Marina Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. Let me put it this way. Tell me first the circumstances under which you became acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as closely as you can when in 1962 you did become acquainted.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, my stepmother and my father called me up.
Mr.Jenner. Your stepmother is Jeanne De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Gibson. Jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and askedme——
Mr.Jenner. At your apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. At my apartment; and asked me if I would please take care of Marina Oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one on one day and one the next day, and I said all right. And as for the date, I imagine you know it better than I do.
Mr.Jenner. I don't know anything better than you do.
Mrs.Gibson. If you give me the date on the pads. I don't remember the dates at all.
Mr.Jenner. Was it the month of September?
Mrs.Gibson. No. As I said, I thought it was before September.
Mr.Jenner. Before September?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember anything about the weather?
Mrs.Gibson. It was very hot, but I don't remember the month. It could havebeen——
Mr.Jenner. Could it have been in August?
Mrs.Gibson. It could have been the latter part of August. It seems to me that would be about right.
Mr.Jenner. Can you recall anything about what your father and/or your stepmother said to you in identifying these people? You were naturally curious as to who they were?
Mrs.Gibson. They told me that they were recently, Marina and Lee were recently here from Russia, and hadn't been in Dallas very long, or Fort Worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if we got acquainted. And she said Marina was around my age, and asked if I would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments.
Mr.Jenner. That is, they didn't have any room in the De Mohrenschildts' apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. From that conversation you became aware, had the impression that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance with these people?
Mrs.Gibson. I think they just recently met them.
Mr.Jenner. That was the impression?
Mrs.Gibson. That was the impression I got.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall what day of the week—that is, not the particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday?
Mrs.Gibson. It was a weekday. Whether it was in the beginning of the week or the middle or the end I don't remember, but it was a weekday.
Mr.Jenner. What time of day was it?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, they called me the night before, but it was in the early morning of the next day.
Mr.Jenner. That you met Marina?
Mrs.Gibson. That I met Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina come alone?
Mrs.Gibson. No; my stepmother brought her and the child.
Mr.Jenner. That was in the morning?
Mrs.Gibson. In the morning; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. Describe your apartment, will you please?
Mrs.Gibson. How do you mean describe it?
Mr.Jenner. How many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms, kitchen, dining room?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, there are five rooms, I guess, in all.
Mr.Jenner. And they consisted of?
Mrs.Gibson. Living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom. There was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be classified as a whole room.
Mr.Jenner. Sort of more of a dressing room?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. For what purpose were you employing that room at that time?
Mrs.Gibson. My child slept in that room.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband, normally sleep?
Mrs.Gibson. We slept in the living room.
Mr.Jenner. That was your normal practice?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. So that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied?
Mrs.Gibson. No; it wasn't.
Mr.Jenner. It was not in use, rather, at the time that Marina stayed with you?
Mrs.Gibson. No; it was used as a playroom really for my son Curtis.
Mr.Jenner. Your stepmother brought Marina and the baby to your home?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Was your husband home at that time?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Jenner. That is it was at a time when he would have departed for work?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I believe he had already gone to work.
Mr.Jenner. You said that Marina was to receive some dental care?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived?
Mrs.Gibson. After she came back from the dentist, she stayed there, I think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that afternoon, after she came back from the dentist.
Mr.Jenner. Your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took her to the dentist?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. They returned?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. That afternoon.
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight and into the next day?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where did Marina and her child stay that evening?
Mrs.Gibson. They slept in the bedroom.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't lodge her child, June, in the room in which your son Curtis was?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. I believe it was on the evening of the first day that Marina stayed with me.
Mr.Jenner. Did someone bring him or did he come alone?
Mrs.Gibson. As far as I know, he came alone.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression as to the place from which he had come?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know where he had come from.
Mr.Jenner. But he came alone?
Mrs.Gibson. As far as I know; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina able to speak English?
Mrs.Gibson. No; not a word.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any problems in that connection?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her.
Mr.Jenner. I take it then from your remark that you yourself are not fluent in Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you understand Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. A few words.
Mr.Jenner. Your father speaks Russian fluently, does he not?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he does.
Mr.Jenner. And your stepmother?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Despite their fluency in Russian, you never acquired any fluency? You just didn't acquire any familiarity with Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Except your understanding of a few words?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. In any event you are unable to speak it?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. When Oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak English or Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. He spoke English to us and Russian to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. When he arrived, did he speak with his child?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. In what language did he speak with the child?
Mrs.Gibson. Russian.
Mr.Jenner. That was not merely small talk? All of his conversation with his child was in Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. Some was small talk. You could tell that he was just playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in Russian. Of course once in a while he'd lapse into English.
Mr.Jenner. You minded the child June while Marina was at the dentist?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And also the following day while she was at the dentist?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. How did you get along with the child?
Mrs.Gibson. Not very well.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mrs.Gibson. Pardon? I didn't understand you.
Mr.Jenner. You say you didn't get along very well with the child. State it more fully to me factually; what the problems were.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, the minute Marina left, the child would start to cry. Shewhimpered all the time. I couldn't feed her. Every time I got near her she'd scream. She never slept. She's a very difficult child to get along with. She was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to her own parents.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to her in English as distinguished from Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know if it was the English. I don't believe she had ever been with anybody but her parents and I think that might have had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by her mother and her father.
Mr.Jenner. There were subsequent occasions when you visited the Oswalds or they visited you or Marina visited you or you visited Marina?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, rather than merely those first 2 days, did you ever hear Lee Oswald address his child other than in Russian?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, like I said, sometimes he'd lapse into English. I imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. I mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with Marina always in Russian. He never spoke English to her ever or even tried to teach her English, never attempted to.
Mr.Jenner. That is he never spoke to Marina other than in Russian, and as you say, he never tried to teach her English?
Mrs.Gibson. He never tried to teach her English, never, not one word.
Mr.Jenner. Did that strike you and your husband Gary as a little out of the ordinary?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his Russian. She, of course—in Russia I believe she worked in a pharmacy. Wasn't she a pharmacist? And therefore we said to be able to get a license over here she would have to speak English, and it didn't seem to bother him. I think he didn't like the idea of her having more education than he did. I think he wanted her to remain solely dependent on him.
Mr.Jenner. During all the period that you and your husband were acquainted with the Oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either of them returning to Russia?
Mrs.Gibson. No; he did not want to go back.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say that?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes. He disliked Russia just like he disliked the United States.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of him? Was he looking for utopia?
Mrs.Gibson. I'd say so. He didn't agree with communism and he didn't agree with capitalism. He had his own ideas completely on government.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please call on your recollection and tell us what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he expressed them?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than anything else. I mean he believed in the perfect government, free of want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased, exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything.
Mr.Jenner. Did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called perfect state?
Mrs.Gibson. No. Actually I think he believed in no government whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to anything except himself.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for making a contribution to that society; working himself? Or was this a Utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as he saw fit?
Mrs.Gibson. I really don't know if he planned to work or not. I don't know what Lee wanted to do in life. I think he wanted to be a very important person without putting anything into it at all.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any impression of resentment on his part?
Mrs.Gibson. He resented any type of authority. He expected to be the highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. He resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in government or, oh, in let's saythe police force or anything like that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in.
Mr.Jenner. Were there discussions between your husband and him on these subjects?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion—you say he wanted to be the highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify himself for those positions and that high pay?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, my husband told him you can't be something for nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing.
Mr.Jenner. You have the impression that he was not an ambitious person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an objective and work toward something?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted.
Mr.Jenner. As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in his lap?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas, he was extremely devoted.
Mr.Jenner. He was devoted to his concepts?
Mrs.Gibson. To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his mind no matter what you said to him.
Mr.Jenner. He was rigid in his views then?
Mrs.Gibson. Very, very rigid in his ideas.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say about Russia during these periods when you had these discussions?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much.
Mr.Jenner. Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious about it and your husband too, I assume?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about Russia, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please state what you recall as to what he said in that connection?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much.
Mr.Jenner. You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty?
Mrs.Gibson. A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working papers.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work.
Mrs.Gibson. Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship. And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about his course of conduct when he firstwent to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his citizenship at that time voluntarily?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't recall that he did say anything about voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't recall that.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their courtship and marriage?
Mrs.Gibson. There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "went out" you meant began to date?
Mrs.Gibson. Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia. And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly.
Mr.Jenner. Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her presence?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee.
Mr.Jenner. That was your impression in any event?
Mrs.Gibson. This is what I was told, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that impression?
Mrs.Gibson. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of love lost between them.
Mr.Jenner. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot.
Mr.Jenner. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiance,Alex——
Mr.Jenner. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer?
Mrs.Gibson. I guess so. I don't know his name.
Mr.Jenner. Describe him to us.
Mrs.Gibson. Describe him?
Mr.Jenner. Physically.
Mrs.Gibson. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.
Mr.Jenner. Did any of this occur in your presence?
Mrs.Gibson. One afternoon he was telling Lee off very,very——
Mr.Jenner. Tell us where this occurred?
Mrs.Gibson. This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. You were present?
Mrs.Gibson. And my husband; we were both present.
Mr.Jenner. And who else please?
Mrs.Gibson. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.
Mr.Jenner. And what response did he obtain from Lee?
Mrs.Gibson. Very sullen, very sharp answers. In fact I thought there was going to be a fight there for a minute.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee deny at that time in your presence, these accusations being uttered by Alexander Kleinlerer?
Mrs.Gibson. He said it was none of his business.
Mr.Jenner. But he didn't deny that he had done this?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. He just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Had either you or your husband ever—did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina?
Mrs.Gibson. No; we never talked to him about beating his wife. We just talked to him about how he should teach her English, how it was very important for her to know English.
Mr.Jenner. I take it that that phase, that is the teaching of English to her, that sort of conversation occurred several times during your acquaintanceship with Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, yes; very often.
Mr.Jenner. And his response always was that he didn't want tolose——
Mrs.Gibson. He didn't want to lose his Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Was there anything said by you or Gary that he could speak to her in Russian and she could speak with him in Russian but at the same time she could be taught English?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Neither you nor your husband Gary urged that alternative?
Mrs.Gibson. No; we just gave up.
Mr.Jenner. What was Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a gracious person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? Was he appreciative?
Mrs.Gibson. He could be very, very rude. He appreciated absolutely nothing you did for him. He never thanked you for anything. He seemed to expect it of you.
Mr.Jenner. We are going to get into all that eventually, but you and your husband Gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event. You did a number of things for him; did you not?
Mrs.Gibson. I'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't owe him anything. But we did try to help.
Mr.Jenner. Now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he express any appreciation or thanks.
Mrs.Gibson. I think the only time he ever said thank you was when we moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas. I think it was a very brief thank you, and that was that.
Mr.Jenner. But otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I didn't feel anything. I fed his wife quite a few meals. He never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. He never thanked me. He just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and I felt that I didn't owe him a thing.
Mr.Jenner. What about Marina, on the other hand, in this connection?
Mrs.Gibson. I think Marina was appreciative.
Mr.Jenner. Discounting the difficulty of communication?
Mrs.Gibson. I had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. But she was exceedingly lazy. She would do nothing to help. The only thing she would do would be to take care of her child. She would do this, thank goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. She wouldn't help with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work I had to do because she was there. Mrs. Hall had the same complaint.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Hall expressed this complaint to you?
Mrs.Gibson. Exactly the same complaint: that Marina slept very late, which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did not help with thehouse, that she didn't do anything really; just sat around and took care of the baby.
Mr.Jenner. Over this period—let me fix the period of time. You first met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of August 1962. When was the last time you saw either of the Oswalds?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, when I returned a manuscript to Lee Oswald, it could have been either the end of November or the middle of December. I am not sure which.
Mr.Jenner. 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. 1962; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. Over this period of approximately, let us say, 3½ months in 1962, how many times did Marina stay in your home? You have given one occasion.
Mrs.Gibson. It must have been at least two or three, no more than that.
Mr.Jenner. Over that 3½ month period, the Oswalds were in your home no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of them?
Mrs.Gibson. No; he was. She was only there one other time to visit. He popped in and out frequently. She was in Fort Worth at the time, and I didn't see her.
Mr.Jenner. Going back to this following or second day of Marina's visit in August, I take it your stepmother picked her up and took her to the dentist on the second day as well?
Mrs.Gibson. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did she return to Fort Worth that day?
Mrs.Gibson. I think she took a bus that afternoon to Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. Did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken?
Mrs.Gibson. My stepmother took her.
Mr.Jenner. Did you learn where the Oswalds were living or staying at that time? That is, is this the first occasion that you met them?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, they must have been staying at that duplex.
Mr.Jenner. On Mercedes Street?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; that is where they must have been staying.
Mr.Jenner. Were you ever in that home or apartment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I was.
Mr.Jenner. When was the first occasion you were in that duplex?
Mrs.Gibson. It was Sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about 2 weeks or more after I first met them. Gary and I went over to visit them in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. Weekday or weekend?
Mrs.Gibson. Sunday.
Mr.Jenner. On a Sunday. This was then in September of 1962?
Mrs.Gibson. It must have been early September or late August.
Mr.Jenner. This was a visit on your part?
Mrs.Gibson. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit them?
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. When you arrived there, was anyone there?
Mrs.Gibson. I am not very clear on that point. It is possible that Lee's mother was just leaving. I am not sure. She was either just leaving or she had just left before we came. I don't remember. I am not too clear on if I met her passing as she was going out or if I didn't meet her.
Mr.Jenner. How did you know where they lived?
Mrs.Gibson. Lee I believe—Lee gave us their address.
Mr.Jenner. On what occasion did he give you their address?
Mrs.Gibson. It must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped in. I don't really know.
Mr.Jenner. I don't know as I asked you this. Did he visit at your home at anytime during those first 2 days that Marina stayed with you?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he came to visit the first evening.
Mr.Jenner. Had you expected him?
Mrs.Gibson. I had thought that he might be coming. I believe she had toldmy stepmother that Lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told me. Somebody had said something.
Mr.Jenner. That was the first occasion on which you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he stay the evening and then leave?
Mrs.Gibson. He stayed about an hour and then he left.
Mr.Jenner. And what did you notice with respect to the relations between Lee Oswald and Marina on that first occasion?
Mrs.Gibson. I'd say they got along fairly well.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression as to whether he was employed at that time?
Mrs.Gibson. I didn't get any impression one way or the other.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get any impression in that respect when you and your husband, Gary, visited them on the Sunday afternoon you have mentioned?
Mrs.Gibson. I believe he talked about his employment, but I am not sure. He must have. They must have talked about it.
Mr.Jenner. Your impression was he was then working at some kind of employment?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I mean it was just normal to assume. He had an apartment and a child and a wife. He must have been working.
Mr.Jenner. Were there any others than those you have mentioned who were at the apartment on that Sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the possibility of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and, of course, there was Lee and the baby and Marina.
Mrs.Gibson. Later on in the early evening some people came to visit, some of the Russian colony from Fort Worth and Dallas.
I don't recall the names. I think Mrs. Hall and Alex were there. Otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other people besides them.
Mr.Jenner. I will mention some names. Mamantov?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't know that name.
Mr.Jenner. Meller?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You are familiar with the name Meller, aren't you?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. I think you mentioned Mrs. Hall and Kleinlerer.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As possibly having been there. Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mrs.Gibson. That is a possibility. The more I think about it, it is possible, but I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. You were acquainted with or aware of the Clarks?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I believe I knew them.
Mr.Jenner. They were friends of your father and stepmother?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I am not positive that I knew them very well, but I have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely.
Mr.Jenner. Are you familiar with the name George Bouhe?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was George Bouhe there?
Mrs.Gibson. I am not sure, but the more I think about it, you asked me this question earlier, I think he was there. I think he was the extra man that was there.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you get as to whether it had been expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I think they just dropped in.
Mr.Jenner. Did they stay very long?
Mrs.Gibson. I left before they left. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. What was the nature of the conversation on that occasion?
Mrs.Gibson. I couldn't really tell. A lot of it was in Russian. You couldn't tell what was going on.
Mr.Jenner. These were by and large Russian-speaking people?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Describe the apartment to me, will you please?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, my. Well, it was rather nice. It was clean. There was a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors, good paint. It was a duplex. A large backyard. The furniture was rundown but it was usable. All in all it was not a bad apartment.
Mr.Jenner. What impressions did you get of Lee Harvey Oswald throughout the 3½ month period, as to his dress and his self-respect and care?
Mrs.Gibson. He was not a very clean person. In fact, I'd say he wasn't clean at all. He seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week. Every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. Fairly clean-shaven, but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress.
Mr.Jenner. And Marina on the other hand?
Mrs.Gibson. I'd say she was fairly clean.
Mr.Jenner. What was Lee Oswald's attitude and his posture with respect to other people? Was he reasonably polite and respectful? How did he conduct himself in the presence of others?
Mrs.Gibson. It would depend on who the people were. He could be very polite if he wished. He could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he wished. He could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could be very quiet if he wished. It just depended on who the people were.
Mr.Jenner. Which was predominant?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, I don't know. It was really a mixture. He was easy, not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. We argued with him but it was always a friendly argument. When I saw him with other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could be very quiet, very brooding. That is about all I can tell you.
Mr.Jenner. It has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others.
Mrs.Gibson. No; I wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very—he didn't seem to be introverted; no. He seemed to be quite friendly, quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. He didn't sit in silence for hours.
Mr.Jenner. What about his regard, his attitude toward others with respect to—that is did he—let's take your father's folks, did he have respect for your father? Did he like him?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; he liked my father very much. He had a great deal of respect for him.
Mr.Jenner. And your husband Gary?
Mrs.Gibson. I would imagine he did.
Mr.Jenner. What is your impression?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I'd say Marina probably liked Gary more than Lee, though.
Mr.Jenner. Lee did visit at your home?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he did on occasion seek out your husband?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And your husband occasionally sought out him?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee express any views with respect to others in that milieux, that company, the Halls, the Mellers, the Clarks, Bouhe, the Voshinins, the Russian emigree colony?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, he liked Mr. Bouhe very much and he expected a lot of him. I think he thought that Mr. Bouhe might be his key to getting a good job. Mrs. Hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude, coarse woman. I think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well.
Alex—what did you say his name was?
Mr.Jenner. Kleinlerer.
Mrs.Gibson. He didn't like him at all, and the other people you mention, I imagine he has talked about them, but I can't place them, so I don't know his opinion on them.
Mr.Jenner. These people were trying to help, were they not?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; especially George Bouhe.
Mr.Jenner. What was Lee's attitude toward that effort?
Mrs.Gibson. I don't know. I don't know why they were trying to help him.He didn't deserve it. They didn't owe it to him. Yet he seemed to, I got the feeling he thought they did. Why, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get the feeling at any time that he was contemptuous of any of them?
Mrs.Gibson. When they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes. I'd say George Bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than my father, more than any of them. Mrs. Hall got disgusted with the whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with Marina and a lot with Lee.
She got very disgusted with the whole situation. My father did, too. George Bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them.
Mr.Jenner. Why did your father become disgusted with them?
Mrs.Gibson. Oh, just in general, with Lee's lack of being able to get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total indifference. My father just got very aggravated with the whole thing, got aggravated with Marina for taking Lee's abuse, and he just got fed up.
Mr.Jenner. Now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his position in Fort Worth, isn't that so?
Mrs.Gibson. I guess so.
Mr.Jenner. Well,that——
Mrs.Gibson. I imagine, I don't know if he lost it or if he quit. I believe he said he quit.
Mr.Jenner. All right, now that you have said that, the fact is that he did quit. Now, to help orient yourself, that occurred on the 8th of October 1962, which was, I think, a Tuesday but I will check on that to make sure. That was a Monday.
Now, between that Sunday afternoon which would be either late in August or some time in September, and the 8th of October, which was a Monday, when he left the Leslie Welding Co., had you seen the Oswalds?
Mrs.Gibson. Between when?
Mr.Jenner. Between the Sunday that you visited them and the 8th of October.
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe we had. We might have. He might have popped in. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You havementioned——
Mrs.Gibson. Is this before he stayed at the YMCA? This is before, isn't it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. To help you in that respect, he stayed at the YMCA October 15 through October 19, 1962.
Mrs.Gibson. He might have popped in. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr.Jenner. Now, during that period of time, from that Sunday to October 8, had Marina stayed with you?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. You do recall Lee Oswald being in Fort Worth at the YMCA, however, do you?
Mrs.Gibson. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Jenner. I mean in Dallas.
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; we took him there.
Mr.Jenner. You did take him to the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, that was the 15th of October?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. 1962. Where was Marina then?
Mrs.Gibson. She might have been with us at the time.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether you went to Fort Worth and picked him up and took him to the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe we did.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your best recollection of that circumstance.
Mrs.Gibson. All I can remember is letting him off at the YMCA. I am almost positive we wouldn't go to Fort Worth, though, to pick him up. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. That was a Monday.
Mrs.Gibson. It was the afternoon when we dropped him at the Y.
Mr.Jenner. And you have no present recollection where you picked him up,whether——
Mrs.Gibson. No.
Mr.Jenner. Whether he had come to your house or what the circumstances were?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I sure don't. I think he might have come to our house, but I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina stay with you during this October period at all?
Mrs.Gibson. I think she stayed with us the time that he was in the YMCA.
Mr.Jenner. That is?
Mrs.Gibson. I think she stayed with us about 5 days.
Mr.Jenner. That is 5 days?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe she stayed with us the full time, no.
Mr.Jenner. But she did stay with you during a period?
Mrs.Gibson. A few; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a recollection of how she got there, whether you went or your husband went and picked her up and brought her to your home or whether Lee brought her?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't believe Lee brought her. I think it would be more—it would be normal to assume, I don't remember this, that my stepmother or my father must have brought her, because I know we didn't. I don't recall picking her up at all.
Mr.Jenner. But she stayed with you then, you think, during the period that he was at the YMCA?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, did Lee visit at your home while she was there during this YMCA period?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether your husband Gary went over to the YMCA and picked him up and brought him to your home?
Mrs.Gibson. No; I don't think so. I think he came by bus, or walked. That was possible, too. It wasn't that far.
Mr.Jenner. Would you locate your apartment at 3519 Fairmont with respect to the location of the Dallas YMCA. That was downtown?
Mrs.Gibson. Well, it was almost downtown. I believe it was on Maple Avenue or very near Maple Avenue.
Mr.Jenner. That is, the YMCA was?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; and Maple Avenue, we were only one block off of Maple Avenue. We ran parallel with Maple, Fairmont did, and we were only 1 block off of Maple, and I'd say it was, oh, maybe 12 blocks from the YMCA.
Mr.Jenner. An easy walk?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; 12 or 14, maybe farther, but it was not a real long walk. It is possible to walk the distance. Bus service was very frequent and very easy to get.
Mr.Jenner. Now, did you become aware, you and your husband, of the fact that Lee obtained a position at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October? That is while he was at the YMCA, he had already obtained this position and had begun to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs.Gibson. He began to work there while he was at the Y?
Mr.Jenner. He went to work on the 12th of October 1962.
Mrs.Gibson. Oh my goodness. Well, it is possible that we knew this. I know, I remember that he was employed there because I remember he used to tell Gary how he liked the job, how that interested him.
Now, when I thought he was employed there I don't know. I remember when he was at the Y that he was looking for a place to live in the Dallas-Oak Cliff area.
Mr.Jenner. Did you or your ex-husband Gary or both of you help him to look?
Mrs.Gibson. Yes; I believe one evening we went out with them and looked over the prospective places, places that we knew of, the place where we used to live—and Worthington, and just in the general low-rent area which would be accessible to where he was going to be working.
Mr.Jenner. So that you knew at that time where he was working or going to work?