(Whereupon, the document offered by counsel was duly marked for identification as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr.Liebeler. I have marked this "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," New Orleans, July 21, 1964, and I have placed my initials on it. Would you initial it below my initials just so we know we are talking about the same document.
Mr.Pena. Over here [indicating]?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; just put your initials on it.
(Witness complying.)
Mr.Liebeler. Now this application also has a part 2, which is required to be filled out by naturalized citizens. That is also a part of your application; is it not? [Handing document to witness.] Is that a part of your application, too, Mr. Pena?
Mr.Pena. I don't know. Might be. Something wrong here. How—went to Mexico? I don't know exactly.
Mr.Liebeler. What's the problem?
Mr.Pena. I don't know. Says here I was in Mexico. I don't know when I went to Mexico. When I got my passport, I don't remember exactly. I believe I got my passport—when I went to Mexico? How come it says here I went to Mexico?
Mr.Liebeler. You told us you went to Mexico in May of 1963, if I am not mistaken. Is that right?
Mr.Pena. I know I went to Mexico last year.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, this passport application, the one that we have already marked, is dated June 24, and the part, the supplement to it, or what purports to be a supplement to it indicates that you went to Mexico for 8 days in May of 1963. Now this part that we are looking at is not signed by you at any point.
Mr.Pena. You mean that's when I applied for my passport?
Mr.Liebeler. No; you applied for your passport on June 24, 1963. That was after you came back from Mexico. You didn't need your passport to go to Mexico. I don't think you did, anyway.
Mr.Pena. Yes; I believe so. I got my citizen papers; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. But the information that is set forth on this second part of the application, to the extent that it indicates that you went to Cuba in 1959 in May and April, is correct, is it not?
Mr.Pena. Well, I don't know the exact date, but it was around there, somewhere around there.
Mr.Liebeler. The information that you came to the United States in October of 1946 is correct, is it not? That's correct approximately?
Mr.Pena. Yes; around.
Mr.Liebeler. And you lived at 223 West 105th Street in New York City, did you not, for a time?
Mr.Pena. Yes; I lived in that place.
Mr.Liebeler. Now on the application, the original application that we have marked as "Exhibit No. 1," which you signed, it indicates, does it not, that you were going to go to Spain and that you planned to go to Spain for a vacation trip of approximately 2 weeks.
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now in fact, you didn't go to Spain at that time; is that right?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What made you change your mind about that?
Mr.Pena. I don't know; I just changed my mind. I postponed the trip to Europe for this year.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on vacation?
Mr.Pena. What?
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on vacation?
Mr.Pena. Yes, sir. That's where I did take my passport. You also use a passport.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you fill this application out?
Mr.Pena. Right here in New Orleans at 701 Loyola Street, if I am not wrong, the new Federal building.
Mr.Liebeler. At 701 Loyola Street, the new Federal building?
Mr.Pena. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at the passport office on the day you applied for this passport?
Mr.Pena. I don't believe he was there.
Mr.Liebeler. He applied for a passport on the same day.
Mr.Pena. He applied for the passport on the same day?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Pena. I don't remember seeing him there. I remember the day I applied for my passport there were a lot of people from—I don't know from where, India or Africa. You know, colored people. There were some people there. They were seamen or something, and one American girl got all of those colored people. She was helping all of them that day. A bunch of people there, colored people.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no recollection of seeing Oswald there at that time?
Mr.Pena. No.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as you know, you never saw Oswald at any time other than that time you saw him in your bar?
Mr.Pena. No.
Mr.Liebeler. He never had any conversation with you; is that correct?
Mr.Pena. Not that I recall.
Mr.Liebeler. Have any other Federal agencies besides the FBI interviewed you?
Mr.Pena. You see, before, they used to go there and say, "We are from the Federal Bureau," and would just talk to them. I didn't know what agency. I never took no one's name or anything until later my lawyer told me, "Every time you talk to one of these men, get their name, where they come from." That was very, very much later. Before, they would just come around and tell me that they are asking me many things about people that was for Castro. When you got a barroom, especially in Spanish like I got—most of my customers are Spanish seamen, foreign seamen—you hear the way they talk, and before, as I was against Batista—most of the people here for Castro, really for Castro—they was going to my place. So when I joined the organization against Castro in New Orleans, one of the agents of the FBI, De Brueys, started going to my place very, very often asking me about many different people, Spanish people, what I knew, what I thought. I told him what I knew; that some people was for Castro and some people was against. I told him what I saw. I never did ask him what he found out about those people.
Mr.Liebeler. Sometimes you would call the FBI and give them information, too; is that correct?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Information that you picked up from conversations that took place at your bar and listening to those seamen?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now I have been provided with what are supposed to be all of the FBI reports about their conversations relating to the Oswald case, and as far as I can tell, the only time the FBI has spoken to you about that was back in December 1963, shortly after the assassination, and then again in June 1964 just a short time ago; when they came to question you again at my request after Ihad——
Mr.Pena. Just those two times?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; just twice.
Mr.Pena. I believe it's very many more times than that.
Mr.Liebeler. You think it is more times than that?
Mr.Pena. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You are sure these were FBI men?
Mr.Pena. I don't know because, as I told you before, I didn't used to get the names until my lawyer told me, "Look! Every time you talk to one of those people, you better get the name and write it down so you know who you are talking about."
Mr.Liebeler. You wanted to tell me something about the FBI in New Orleans. Why don't you do that now.
Mr.Pena. You see, I started—like I told you, when that organization moved in NewOrleans——
Mr.Liebeler. This is the anti-Castro organization?
Mr.Pena. Yes. So I went down there and joined the organization. In 1959 when I went to Cuba, my mother told me how everything was going; so she says, "He is even worse than Batista." So when I came back, I joined the organization a little bit after that, the organization here in New Orleans. So I went and joined them and started working for the organization collecting money at my place of business and giving my own money for many things to the organization, you know, a dollar, two dollars. Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe—I don't know if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization.
Mr.Liebeler. He joined it?
Mr.Pena. No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the organization very, very close.
Mr.Liebeler. They knew he was an FBI agent?
Mr.Pena. Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent. So from time to time he called me at my place. He went to my place and was asking me about this guy and that guy, different people here in New Orleans. So I told him what I thought about the men. I tell you that and then you find out if I am right or if I am wrong. I never did ask if I was right or wrong. I told him aboutpeople that I am for sure they are for Castro here in New Orleans. So one way or the other, he was interfering with me somehow, Mr. De Brueys,so——
Mr.Liebeler. De Brueys was interfering with you?
Mr.Pena. Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told De Brueys'—I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to—De Brueys' boss—I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in the FBI office—I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I don't trust him as an American.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell them any reasons why you didn't?
Mr.Pena. Because he was interfering very close with the organization against Castro. So since that day—we got in a little bit of argument there. We was talking about somebody. The FBI asked me about a man that had been in the group before, about somebody—if I knew somebody—if I knew his way for signing. So I asked De Brueys, "Did I told you about this man?" He said, "No." I got mad. I said, "If you said I didn't told you about that man, I don't trust you as an American, to be for an American." So 2 days later he went to my place of business. He said to me at the table, "I want to talk to you." I said, "Okay, let's go." He said not to talk about him any more because what he could do is get me in big trouble. He said, "I am an FBI man. I can get you in big trouble." But he made a mistake. I had a girl that was with me that was here when he was discussing me.
Mr.Liebeler. Somebody else was there and heard it?
Mr.Pena. Yes. He was discussing me not to talk about it. He was an FBI man and he could get me in big trouble. So I talked to my girl friend and said, "Look, I better pull out of this thing. What the FBI wants me is to pull away from that organization and just keep away from those things, politics," so I pull away, and I never did heard from the FBI any more until Mr. Kennedy got assassinated. They left me alone completely. They never asked me after I pulled out of the organization. After that, I never listened to anybody talking about politics in the place. I tried to keep out of it the most I could. They never did call me any more until Oswald got—and then they started coming here talking to me because we was talking about the incident.
Mr.Liebeler. So your complaints about the FBI here in New Orleans relate basically to the anti-Castro proposition and not to the investigation of the assassination; is that correct?
Mr.Pena. No, no. That was way before.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right?
Mr.Pena. You mean after the assassination?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Pena. After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. They came over so many times, I said, I better do something about it. I called my lawyer and said, "Look! I don't know anything else about this. I want you to go with me there and put it clear that that's what I know about it and I don't want no more part of that." The thing—I got in an argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with you." I told him that.
Mr.Liebeler. Who?
Mr.Pena. I talked to the agency about if that propaganda, where they was printing that propaganda, and I said, "Why can't you find that place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said, "It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can be found somehow."
Mr.Liebeler. So you told this FBI agent that they should find where the propaganda literature had been printed?
Mr.Pena. The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination—Oswald giving that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away before Mr.Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all of that film taken of Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. You think they should find where those leaflets were printed? This is what you told them?
Mr.Pena. The little bit I know about the investigation, they even—let me see how to say it. Let me see—they even keep Oswald from killing Mr. Kennedy. From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before Mr. Kennedy was killed.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you this: Do you have any evidence or do you know of any evidence that would link Oswald to anybody else in a conspiracy to assassinate the President?
Mr.Pena. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any information or knowledge that Oswald was involved with pro-Castro people in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Pena. No; I can't tell you that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any information that this was a pro-Castro or a Castro plot to assassinate President Kennedy?
Mr.Pena. No; I can't say that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether anybody else in New Orleans has any information like that?
Mr.Pena. No; I can't say that.
Mr.Liebeler. What about Bringuier?
Mr.Pena. What I think about Bringuier? He is just trying to get big name, collecting big name to make himself big when he come back to Cuba. Be one of the bosses. That's my point of view. I told you he don't like the United States and what I told you about; you can bring him here and tell him that Orest Pena told you that. I will stand a lie-detector test and invite him to take one, and I invite De Brueys, too, to ask De Brueys if that's true or not true he went to my place and tried to intimidate me. If he say no, I take a lie-detector test and he take a lie-detector test and maybe you will find one Communist in the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. You think that Bringuier is using his association with Oswald to give himself a big name in connection with that?
Mr.Pena. That's what it is.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as you know, Bringuier doesn't have any evidence that there was a pro-Castro plot to assassinate the President.
Mr.Pena. No; I don't know. See, Bringuier know Oswald very well. He told me one time—I don't know if that is true or not—he said that Oswald brought him some kind of manual or a book. I believe he still have the book. And Bringuier has his own organization here. They callit——
Mr.Liebeler. DRE?
Mr.Pena. Cuban something.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the DRE?
Mr.Pena. Yes; something.
Mr.Liebeler. Cuban Students Directory?
Mr.Pena. He said Oswald came to infiltrate in his organization.
Mr.Liebeler. And that Oswald came to his store?
Mr.Pena. Yes. That's what he told me. Before, I used to talk to him, go there or he came to my place.
Mr.Liebeler. You and Mr. Bringuier are not too good friends any more; is that right?
Mr.Pena. We was quite close until—when they started the blockade in Cuba, the way he spoke about President Kennedy. And I pulled a little bit out. I even used to give him sometimes more than $2. I don't know. He collected to send to Miami, if he don't send it somewhere else. That's what he said.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us at this time, Mr. Pena, that I haven't asked you about that you think we should know about?
Mr.Pena. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You can't think of anything?
Mr.Pena. I tell you, Bringuier don't do many things that he will tell you. He don't like America. Time will tell. He is one of the guys that—do youremember when they were saying, "Yankee, go home," in Cuba? He was in Cuba at that time. He was calling, "Yankee, go home."
Mr.Liebeler. Has he ever favored Castro that you know of?
Mr.Pena. Oh, of course.
Mr.Liebeler. Who, Bringuier?
Mr.Pena. Yes. He said not?
Mr.Liebeler. I am asking you did he ever favor Castro.
Mr.Pena. I was in Cuba. I left Cuba very long time ago. I never was involved in any kind of politics. I didn't like Batista, but I wasn't in any organization.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't know of any.
Mr.Pena. What I know about people, what I hear in my place, or what I hear other people talking, and what I hear about Bringuier was, when Castro started with his revolution of Cuba, he was one of the Cubans in the revolution calling, "Yankee, go home."
Mr.Liebeler. You don't think that Bringuier is in favor of Castro at this time?
Mr.Pena. He? No, no. He hate Castro and he hate Russia, but he hates America as much, too. He just want to go back to Cuba and be one of the bosses.
Mr.Liebeler. Be a big man?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. All right, Mr. Pena. I want to thank you very much for coming in.
Mr.Pena. I want you to know something: I love the United States more than many people that are born in this country and I got a place of business and I hear—they don't talk much now. They are very scared, but before, when Castro was started, I learn many people, how much they was against this country, people that was born in this country. I love this country, believe me. Maybe you don't believe me or have a bad report about me, but nobody make me a Communist. Believe that. Believe it or not.
Mr.Liebeler. All right. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Ruperto Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Ruperto Pena, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. First, let the record show that this testimony is being taken through an interpreter in the person of Special Agent Richard E. Logan of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Pena, I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony pursuant to certain regulations and orders that President Johnson has issued, including Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
You are entitled to have an attorney. You do not have to answer the questions if you have any objections to them, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing.
Mr.Logan. I have already explained to him that you are an attorney and about the Commission and authorization. Now I will just tell him about these rights that he has.
(Discussion between witness and interpreter).
Mr.Logan. He says as long as he can answer them, that he will.
Mr.Liebeler. I assume that he will be willing to proceed without an attorney?
Mr.Logan. No; he doesn't care.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born, Mr. Pena?
Mr.Pena. Mantanza—that's the province—Colón—that's the city—Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. When?
Mr.Pena. March 5, 1927.
Mr.Liebeler. You are still a citizen of Cuba?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you work?
Mr.Pena. With my brother at the—I help my brother run the bar, the Habana Bar, 117 Decatur Street. The Habana Bar it is called.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Carlos Bringuier?
Mr.Pena(answering directly). Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you are the brother of Orest Pena; is that correct?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Evaristo Rodriguez?
Mr.Pena(answering directly). Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed with your brother an incident in the bar where a man ordered a lemonade?
Mr.Pena. I didn't talk with my brother about it. I have discussed it with the bartender.
Mr.Liebeler. Rodriguez?
Mr.Logan. Because his brother, apparently—he wasn't there when the incident happened either. He didn't discuss it with his brother and the bartender. Apparently, he just heard it through talk in the bar about the thing.
Mr.Liebeler. You were not there at the time this happened?
Mr.Pena. No; I wasn't there.
Mr.Liebeler(handing picture to witness). I show you a picture which has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize that man.
Mr.Pena. I know him from the newspapers, but I have never seen him in person.
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Logan. He knows. Just can't get it out right now. He doesn't remember his name. He knows his face because he has seen it in a lot of photographs and pictures in the newspaper. Never saw him in person, but he knows the photograph of the man from pictures on TV and newspapers.
Mr.Liebeler. And you know him as the man who assassinated President Kennedy?
Mr.Pena. Yes; I do. I don't right at this second remember his name.
Mr.Liebeler. Oswald?
Mr.Pena. Oswald is the man.
Mr.Liebeler(handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you have ever seen any of the men in this picture, specifically that man who is handing out leaflets slightly to Oswald's right, the man I point to with my pencil, and, for the purposes of the record, it is the man who stands behind Oswald to his right, and he is the second man from Oswald. He wears a short-sleeved shirt with a tie.
Mr.Pena. I don't know anybody in there. I don't recognize anybody in there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell Carlos Bringuier that you had seen Oswald anywhere?
Mr.Pena. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you in the bar, the Habana Bar, at the time when your brother got into an argument with two Mexicans or Cubans about the bongo drums?
Mr.Pena. It was me that had the argument with them. I had an argument with a couple of them over there over the problem of Cuba, but I was not there when the incident that your question specifically asked about took place.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you did have an argument with two Mexicans about Cuba; is that right?
Mr.Pena. The problems of Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. And did you call the FBI?
Mr.Pena. Bringuier did.
Mr.Liebeler. Bringuier called the FBI?
Mr.Pena. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times did you see these men?
Mr.Pena. The first time I saw them was in the bar, the two of them. It was in the evening we were having this discussion over the problems of Cuba. The second time was 2 or 3 days later—I am not positive about that—when I saw them pass the bar in a little car.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI?
Mr.Pena. Yes. What I did was, when I saw them passing in the car—these two men that I mentioned, passing in a car—I went out and took the license number and I gave this to Bringuier, Carlos Bringuier, and I asked Bringuier to call the FBI because I wasn't able to speak English well enough, and that's it.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you, yourself, ever called the FBI or any other Government agency about these two men before you told Bringuier to call them?
Mr.Pena. I didn't call anybody before I told Bringuier to call them, the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you sure?
Mr.Pena. I am sure. I gave Bringuier the number and told him to call the FBI because I couldn't speak English well enough.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, do you remember discussing this question with Mr. Logan back in May, and Mr. Logan asked you this question at that time, and don't you remember that you told Mr. Logan that you had called the FBI or the Immigration and Naturalization Service?
Mr.Pena. No; I didn't, but at that time, I just have said that I called one because it mentions there about the telephone. I just can't remember it now.
Mr.Liebeler. Why did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI, when you saw these men in the car?
Mr.Pena. The night that I had the discussion with these two men, I got the impression that they were pro-Castro and probably Communists, so that's why, when I saw them go by in the car a couple of days later, I asked Bringuier to call the FBI to denounce them, to turn them in or denounce them, or to let them know that they were about.
Mr.Liebeler. Why didn't you call the FBI when you talked to them the first time?
Mr.Pena. The first reason I did not call the FBI the first time was because this discussion took place at night and that, as soon as the discussion was terminated, these two men left, and so it just sort of ended right there. Then, when I saw them again, I got Bringuier to try to call them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Bringuier tell you that he did call the FBI?
Mr.Pena. He called the FBI right in front of me.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you there when Bringuier called the FBI?
Mr.Pena. Yes. I was right there when he was supposed to have called them.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did Bringuier call them from?
Mr.Pena. Called them from Bringuier's store. That's the Casa Rocca. That's right down the street from me. It's 107 Decatur. It's the Casa Rocca. It's a store. That's where the call was made from.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Bringuier tell you who he talked to at the FBI?
Mr.Pena. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did these two men have anything to do with Oswald, as far as you know?
Mr.Pena. As far as I know, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen them again after you saw them in the car?
Mr.Pena. No; never saw them since.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever been in favor of Fidel Castro in the early times?
Mr.Pena. I have never been friendly toward Castro. I am more or less pro-Batista.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any information as to where these two men could be found now?
Mr.Pena. No; I don't have any information. I am under the impression that one was a Cuban and one was a Mexican because of their method of speaking Spanish, which varies from each Spanish country, like a Cuban speaking can recognize a Mexican by his language rather than his appearance.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the answer to the question?
Mr.Pena. The answer to the question is that I do not have any information as to where these two men can be found now.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you give Bringuier the license number of the automobile?
Mr.Pena. Yes; I gave it to Bringuier.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Bringuier give it to the FBI?
Mr.Pena. Bringuier gave it to them, the FBI, over the telephone.
Mr.Liebeler. You are sure that you were present when Bringuier talked to the FBI?
Mr.Pena. The thing is, I was there when Bringuier made a call supposedly to the FBI, but I can't say and won't say that I know Bringuier was talking to the FBI. Actually, as a matter of fact, he could have been talking to just anybody. That's what he just said.
Mr.Liebeler. You had that problem because of your difficulty understanding the English language?
Mr.Pena. The idea is that I was there when the call was made, but I don't know. As far as I am concerned, Bringuier was talking to the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. It says here in this report that you weren't even there.
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Logan. He is telling me now about all the people that are exiles that are in Cuba. They hollered, "Yankee, no." But that's not pertinent. You want me to ask him again about his being present and see if we can make him remember?
Mr.Liebeler. Why does he mention this thing about Cuba? He is not one of them?
Mr.Logan. I dare say it is part of his nature. He is telling me that we have to be careful of all of these people, which we already know.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, Mr. Pena, did you tell Mr. Logan and Agent De Brueys that you were not present when Carlos called the FBI?
Mr.Pena. I don't know that I remember telling you that, but I say now that I was present when that call was made.
Mr.Liebeler. Now Mr. Bringuier said that you told him that one of the two Mexicans had been in the bar with Oswald. Is that correct?
Mr.Pena. I never told Bringuier that.
Mr.Liebeler. And you couldn't have told Bringuier that because you weren't even in the bar when Oswald was there and you never saw the man who was with Oswald?
Mr.Pena. That's right. I wasn't in the barwhen——
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any knowledge that Oswald was connected in any way with any conspiracy to assassinate the President?
Mr.Pena. I have no information that Oswald was ever connected with any organization or conspiracy to assassinate the President.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there anything else that you would like to tell us about this whole affair?
Mr.Pena. I have no further information outside of what I have already said regarding the two Mexicans.
Mr.Liebeler. All right. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you please rise and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassinationof President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish one. You are also entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you think might incriminate you or might violate some other privilege you may have. I think the Secret Service did call you, or Martha Joe Stroud, here in the U.S. attorney's office, called you and gave you notice.
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you wish to have an attorney present?
Mrs.Odio. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. We want to ask you some questions about the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs.Odio. Before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's which he wrote me from prison. You can have it. It was very funny, because at the time he wrote it, the FBI incident happened a week later. I told my father this man had been in my house and he introduced himself as your friend; and he wrote me back in December telling me that such people were not his friends, and he said not to receive anybody in my house, and not any of them were his friends, and he didn't know those people. At the time I did give the names of one or two, and he wrote back, "I actually don't know who they are."
Mr.Liebeler. Let's come to this during the course of the questioning, but I am glad you brought it up. I do want to get to it, because it may help us determine who these people were.
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. First of all, would you tell us where you were born?
Mrs.Odio. In Havana, Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately when?
Mrs.Odio. 1937.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you live in Cuba?
Mrs.Odio. Until, well, I studied in the United States, so I mean—you mean my whole life until—it was 1960.
Mr.Liebeler. 1960?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Then you left Cuba and came to the United States, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you come to in the United States?
Mrs.Odio. We first came to Miami, and we stayed there just a few days and left for Ponce, Puerto Rico, and we stayed there 2 years.
Mr.Liebeler. Then from Ponce, did you come to Dallas?
Mrs.Odio. From Ponce, I came straight to Dallas last year, March of last year.
Mr.Liebeler. So that you have been in Dallas since March of 1963, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You indicated that you had gone to school in the United States. Where?
Mrs.Odio. Eden Hall Convent of The Sacred Heart, in Philadelphia.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you go to school there?
Mrs.Odio. Three years.
Mr.Liebeler. That is what, high school?
Mrs.Odio. That's right. From 1951 to 1954.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that period of 3 years the only time you were in the United States prior to the time that you came to Dallas in March of 1963? The only time in the United States over any extended period of time?
Mrs.Odio. Excuse me, when I got married in 1957, I stayed 8 months—9 months in New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. So that you lived in the United States for 9 months in 1956?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You had been in Philadelphia for 3 years from 1954 on, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. No; from 1951 to 1954, when I graduated.
Mr.Liebeler. And for the period in New Orleans and when you came to the United States finally?
Mrs.Odio. In 1960, December 25, 1960.
Mr.Liebeler. So after you came in December of 1960, you went to Puerto Rico and lived in Puerto Rico for 2 years, and you came to Dallas in 1963 and you have been here ever since?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mrs. Odio?
Mrs.Odio. Well, I had grammar school in Cuba. I started high school in Cuba and then I was sent to the Sacred Heart and I applied for college, and went back and studied law in the University of Villanova. I did not finish because my career was interrupted because of Castro, and I didn't finish law.
Mr.Liebeler. How much training did you have in law?
Mrs.Odio. I had almost 3 years.
Mr.Liebeler. Of law study in Cuba?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hosty and Bardwell D. Odum. Do you remember that?
Mrs.Odio. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your place of work, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember approximately what they asked you and what you told them?
Mrs.Odio. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall the conversation.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as best you can recall it?
Mrs.Odio. They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico?
Mrs.Odio. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba.
So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I said, "Yes; I remember."
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.
Mrs.Odio. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could.
Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans knewthat I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that.
Mr.Liebeler. Because of what now?
Mrs.Odio. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the time was staying with some American friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me.
It either was a Thursday or a Friday. It must have been either one of those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit.
Like I said, the doorbell rang and she went over—she had a housecoat on—she wasn't dressed properly—and came back and said, "Sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them?" So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions where Cubans have introduced themselves as having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know.
So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, "I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We are members of JURE."
This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names.
And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on; I remember perfectly.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the talking? Was it the American?
Mrs.Odio. The American had not said a word yet.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one of the Cubans?
Mrs.Odio. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one called Leopoldo.
Mr.Liebeler. He did most of the talking?
Mrs.Odio. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened?
Mrs.Odio. I had a chain.
Mr.Liebeler. Was the chain fastened?
Mrs.Odio. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American.
He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am sorryto say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.
I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.
Mr.Liebeler. But she didn't remember it?
Mrs.Odio. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." But I forgot about them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your sister see the men?
Mrs.Odio. She saw the three of them.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed this with her since that time?
Mrs.Odio. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she think it was Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing—the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?
Mrs.Odio. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.
Mr.Liebeler. Almost to his elbows?
Mrs.Odio. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he have a tie?
Mrs.Odio. No tie.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?
Mrs.Odio. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?
Mrs.Odio. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"
That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.
This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results.
This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, "Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can raise some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?"
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name?
Mrs.Odio. His name is Antonio.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez Alvareda?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is he?
Mrs.Odio. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after that, after December, I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, working hard.
And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I said, "Do you know Eugenio?" This is the war name for ——. That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn't mention his real name. He didn't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Who did you ask this?
Mrs.Odio. I asked these men when they came to the door—I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, because I explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?"
And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know how fast Cubans talk. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba?" And he said, "No, I have never been to Cuba."
And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes."
This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, "I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me."
And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines?" And I think that was the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the window leaving in a car. I can't recall the car. I have been trying to.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know which one of the men was driving?
Mrs.Odio. The tall one, Leopoldo.
Mr.Liebeler. Leopoldo?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.
They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami.
Mr.Liebeler. But they did not indicate where they were going?
Mrs.Odio. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think anything."
And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or less—I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated after the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation.
And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to seeme on their return to Dallas. Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs.Odio. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the American or Leon.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention his last name the night before?
Mrs.Odio. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again.
Mr.Liebeler. But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon?
Mrs.Odio. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or an American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back?
Mrs.Odio. At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my psychiatrist.
I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School, and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose.
My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or before the assassination?
Mrs.Odio. This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved with any of them."
Mr.Liebeler. You have already given us a copy of the letter that you received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell your father the names of these men when you wrote to him?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father did not, however, mention their names in his letter, did he?
Mrs.Odio. He mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an American, and I gave the names of the Cubans.
Mr.Liebeler. The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs.Odio. He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone there in Dallas. You don't have anybody, so please do not open your door to anybody that calls themselves my friends."
Mr.Liebeler. I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit.
Mrs.Odio. Yes, okay.
Mr.Liebeler. The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you read that translation to us?
Mrs.Odio. "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me lately, not even inDallas. So do not establish any friendships until you give me their full names again."
Mr.Liebeler. Does he say their "full names" in there?
Mrs.Odio. Their full names again, which means I had given their war names.
Mr.Liebeler. So you must have given the name Leopold?
Mrs.Odio. He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you, and you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says. We are 10 brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both of them.
I have little brothers in Dallas in an orphanage. We have been, were a very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after I divorced. He is still more worried, and he was always thinking that somebody could come in my door. He also had a thought that somebody could come by demanding money or something like that. You can probably have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation.
Mr.Liebeler. This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct?