Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember any.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they conducted themselves?
Mr.Arnett. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just with me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did.
Mr.Griffin. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated that they saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do you imagine that Ruby could have got by?
Mr.Arnett. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that night, Iwould say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that funeral, but I don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of night. I didn't see Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he was in front of me in the basement, the 24th.
Mr.Griffin. Would you have recognized him?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time you were on duty on Friday?
Mr.Arnett. Friday night?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night.
Mr.Griffin. After 11 o'clock what did you do?
Mr.Arnett. I went home.
Mr.Griffin. Did anybody replace you on those doors?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who that was?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do in admitting people?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you come in on Saturday?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What time did you come in on Saturday?
Mr.Arnett. Around 2 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. And how late did you stay?
Mr.Arnett. Until about 11.
Mr.Griffin. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday?
Mr.Arnett. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but I did work over where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you can walk down.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I worked there with an officer. I believe his initials is L. M. Baker.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were stationed by Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Arnett. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. About what time was that?
Mr.Arnett. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide office?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do you mean that you were inside the homicide office?
Mr.Arnett. No; I was outside.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide door?
Mr.Arnett. In the hallway.
Mr.Griffin. Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Arnett. No; his office is back inside, but you had to go through that door to get to his office.
Mr.Griffin. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this other, instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the door to the homicide office?
Mr.Arnett. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Let me mark it [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you initial those two places and date them where I marked them [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right?
Mr.Griffin. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide bureau?
Mr.Arnett. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many peoplein there and out—what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as far as seeing what was going on in other offices, I couldn't tell you.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you received some instructions from one of the other officers?
Mr.Arnett. Did there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, about what time was that?
Mr.Arnett. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you?
Mr.Arnett. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, where was this told to you?
Mr.Arnett. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant Merrell. I am trying to think where I went and called from.
Mr.Griffin. Somebody came up to you at the homicideoffice——
Mr.Arnett. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"?
Mr.Arnett. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Then you went and made a telephone call?
Mr.Arnett. I believe I went in Chief Curry's—not in his office, now, but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and used the telephone. I am almost certain I did.
Mr.Griffin. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the buildingor——
Mr.Arnett. He was at home.
Mr.Griffin. He was at home. Is he a regular officer?
Mr.Arnett. He is a reserve lieutenant.
Mr.Griffin. He is a reserve lieutenant?
Mr.Arnett. He is my assistant.
Mr.Griffin. Then Merrell told you that you would have to have some men?
Mr.Arnett. That they wanted some men, yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him that, is that right?
Mr.Arnett. Captain Solomon, I believe.
Mr.Griffin. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt to locate some reserves that night?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already in the police department building?
Mr.Arnett. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, and I gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next morning to be there.
Mr.Griffin. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men should be there?
Mr.Arnett. Nine o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to generally when Oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally when he would be moved?
Mr.Arnett. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 o'clock they would be plenty early.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive any other information?
Mr.Arnett. Of what time it would be?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant Merrell and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the announcement to the press?
Mr.Arnett. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard him say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, think whether it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would that have gone through the dispatcher's office?
Mr.Arnett. For him to call me would—yes.
Mr.Griffin. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that right?
Mr.Arnett. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't have been.
Mr.Griffin. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information concerning the transfer of Oswald; in other words, is that the mostaccurate——
Mr.Arnett. It would be recorded all right.
Mr.Griffin. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly how soon people would have known that something was going to happen.
Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you did in connection with the information you received about the move, that Oswald was going to be moved the next day?
Mr.Arnett. Well, it would show—you would have to first check and see what squad McCoy was riding, to get the number.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. You see?
Mr.Griffin. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically?
Mr.Arnett. No; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name wouldn't have been on there.
Mr.Griffin. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would it say number such-and-such call Captain Arnett?
Mr.Arnett. No; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't believe our names would have been mentioned on the air.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that we could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy?
Mr.Arnett. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, we will just say 243 or 242 or—I don't know what number it was now, but I am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have been in.
Mr.Griffin. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are retained by the police department?
Mr.Arnett. I suppose they are kept for a long time.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and Courts Building the next day?
Mr.Arnett. Nine o'clock a.m.
Mr.Griffin. All right. How many men would you estimate that you contacted about this between the time that you got the word from Lieutenant Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock?
Mr.Arnett. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell—I mean Lieutenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call some of his men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two people I contacted on it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact any other officers, to give instructions to men?
Mr.Arnett. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would have given instructions similar to ones you gave?
Mr.Arnett. Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know there wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't contact him.
Mr.Griffin. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that next morning?
Mr.Arnett. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Each; each lieutenant?
Mr.Arnett. No; each one just get two or three men. We had 18.
Mr.Griffin. Had 18 all together?
Mr.Arnett. Uh, huh.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you came in the building on Sunday morning?
Mr.Arnett. I either put it in the parking station west of the city hall on Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember entering the building?
Mr.Arnett. Do I remember entering the building?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what entrance you came through?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at that time were there any TV cables strung through there?
Mr.Arnett. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, and I do believe that there were cables running through the door.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps from Commerce Street, you open up the door and you can go down a hallway toward the records room?
Mr.Arnett. Down that way [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Going north?
Mr.Arnett. Uh, huh.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two other doors there?
Mr.Arnett. They would be on Harwood Street, then?
Mr.Griffin. No.
Mr.Arnett. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you familiar with that door?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar with that door?
Mr.Arnett. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in.
Mr.Griffin. You went down into the subbasement?
Mr.Arnett. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards the records building.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building?
Mr.Arnett. No; I misunderstand what you are talking about.
Mr.Griffin. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the—where the police officers' locker room is?
Mr.Arnett. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the Commerce Street side?
Mr.Arnett. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not.
Mr.Griffin. You walk off of the sidewalk on CommerceStreet——
Mr.Arnett. And go down in the basement.
Mr.Griffin. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to the records room?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them is, if I am not mistaken, off to the right, as you face the hallway, and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area—door, rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that goes down in the subbasement. Were you aware of that?
Mr.Arnett. No.
Mr.Griffin. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records room?
Mr.Arnett. No; I sure wouldn't.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go—and got inside the building?
Mr.Arnett. I saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the TV cameras that—in other words, this is the basement [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking area, here is the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to Commerce Street [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. We have got it turned right around to me.
Mr.Griffin. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, this is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. This is Commerce going out?
Mr.Griffin. That's right.
Mr.Arnett. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Let me draw two TV cameras; is that about where they were placed, where I have got them there [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, behind the TVcameras——
Mr.Arnett. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put a reserve officer out there.
Mr.Griffin. Who was that reserve officer that you put there?
Mr.Arnett. Worley.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now. I am going to put an X—well, you put an X on the map where you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if you will, please.
Mr.Arnett. [Spelling]W-o——
Mr.Griffin. [Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y.
Now, what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley in there?
Mr.Arnett. Shortly after 9 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. You want to say whatever it was, 9:15, whatever you think it was?
Mr.Arnett. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be within 5 minutes or so [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. Okay.
Mr.Arnett. I am going to put 9:10 [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Arnett. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley at that spot?
Mr.Arnett. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men in there. I walked back outside and I believe that I talked to some captain that needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, and I went back in and asked them if they could send five men down there and they said yes. They assigned five men to go down there and they were sent down there in a squad car.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do after that?
Mr.Arnett. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam, we searched the basement.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did you accompany Sergeant Dean?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you accompany him all the way around?
Mr.Arnett. In this area, I did [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion?
Mr.Arnett. That's it (indicating).
Mr.Griffin. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marked on the map stairs up, behind elevators No. 1 and No. 2.
Mr.Arnett. Did I go up the stairs?
Mr.Griffin. No. Did you go to that area with him?
Mr.Arnett. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all this right in here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating—we have to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, Chief Justice Warren and so forth will understand what we are talking about here.
Mr.Arnett. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean that portion of the garage which includes the elevators No. 1 and No. 2 and the doorway to the stair up, correct?
Mr.Arnett. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and Sergeant Dean do?
Mr.Arnett. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Regular officerstationed——
Mr.Arnett. At the elevators [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You want to put on the map where that regular officer was, and put an X there?
Mr.Arnett. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Do you want to write regular officer—do you know his name?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling]R-e——
Mr.Griffin. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators operating, these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation?
Mr.Arnett. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't working at the time I was there.
Mr.Griffin. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there?
Mr.Arnett. No.
Mr.Griffin. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up?
Mr.Arnett. Did you say are there a door there?
Mr.Griffin. Is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door there?
Mr.Arnett. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Into the first aid station?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you and Sergeant Dean made?
Mr.Arnett. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here and we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is room for a man to walk in there, and I went and got a flashlightand——
Mr.Griffin. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you recall whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that leads to the stairs up?
Mr.Arnett. I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. You didn't go?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Right. Did you go to that area where the first-aid station is?
Mr.Arnett. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, and this building back here that I am telling you about, that doesn't extend against the wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant —— I will think of his name in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H.
Mr.Griffin. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back there searchedthe——
Mr.Arnett. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight for him, and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. There was room for a man to walk in there [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jailoffice——
Mr.Arnett. No; it's not behind it.
Mr.Griffin. Well, here is the jail office [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, and the one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely against the ramp. There is room for a man to walk in behind there [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did you search any other area with Sergeant Dean?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir. I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell me where I was?
(The record was here read by the reporter.)
Mr.Griffin. After you searched the basement, where did you go?
Mr.Arnett. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle around that; would you write around that, after search of basement [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. [Spelling]B-a-s-p——
Mr.Griffin. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you remain there at that position?
Mr.Arnett. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. And then where did you go?
Mr.Arnett. J. C. Hunt took my place, another reserve officer.
Mr.Griffin. Replaced by J. C. Hunt?
Mr.Arnett. Hunt.
Mr.Griffin. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go?
Mr.Arnett. I had sent some menoutside——
Mr.Griffin. No; where did you go?
Mr.Arnett. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in here, of the reserves [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You circulated in the basement?
Mr.Arnett. In the basement.
Mr.Griffin. And did you make assignments?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What assignments did you make?
Mr.Arnett. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant —— this little sergeant that I was trying to name while ago—Could I call the man and ask him that boy's name?
Mr.Griffin. That's not really important.
Mr.Arnett. It isn't?
Mr.Griffin. No; did you assign people outside of the building?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you make assignments to the various intersections?
Mr.Arnett. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce south-side street.
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Arnett. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on the street [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You sent all your men to Commerce?
Mr.Arnett. No; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that particular time.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you send your other men?
Mr.Arnett. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and Pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl?
Mr.Arnett. Main and Pearl?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Arnett. I don't believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl?
Mr.Arnett. Not before the shooting.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street?
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the Credit Building—what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association or Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp of it. That's out on Commerce Street.
Mr.Griffin. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement?
Mr.Arnett. I didn't make the assignment myself.
Mr.Griffin. Did you leave the basement at any time after this particular period that we are talking about, when you made these assignments, did you leave the basement area?
Mr.Arnett. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting.
Mr.Griffin. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the garage and ramp area the entire time?
Mr.Arnett. After I left this particular spot here [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; where we marked the A?
Mr.Arnett. I was in this area right in here, and about 11:05 I took my stand right in here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then inthe——
Mr.Arnett. Basement.
Mr.Griffin. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of the Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom?
Mr.Arnett. [No response.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where you stationed yourself at about 11:05?
Mr.Arnett. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, it is.
Mr.Arnett. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, it is.
Mr.Arnett. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Would you put an A there, also?
Mr.Arnett. Okay [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. And put a circle around that.
Mr.Arnett. All right [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first arrived there?
Mr.Arnett. I would say 11:05.
Mr.Griffin. All right. How do you fix that time 11:05?
Mr.Arnett. I believe I looked at my watch.
Mr.Griffin. Did you write up a report on this on November 24?
Mr.Arnett. Did I write it up?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I made the statement.
Mr.Griffin. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry?
Mr.Arnett. Well, that's the letter [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about 11:05. Was the first time that you thought about 11:05 when you were interviewed by the FBI agents on December 4?
Mr.Arnett. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being 11:05 when I went there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Well, no; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought about it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was writing that letter.
Mr.Griffin. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you stationedyourself here, in terms of how much before—well, in terms of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place yourself beforeor——
Mr.Arnett. It was here before I went there.
Mr.Griffin. All right. This was after the armored car arrived?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down?
Mr.Arnett. After I placed myself over there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Well, around 15 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down?
Mr.Arnett. I know what time the ambulance was called.
Mr.Griffin. What time was that?
Mr.Arnett. 11:21.
Mr.Griffin. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the floodlights from the TV cameras on?
Mr.Arnett. Were they on?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. If I remember right, they had been on all the time.
Mr.Griffin. They had been on all the time?
Mr.Arnett. They wasn't alive all the time.
Mr.Griffin. You mean the cameras weren't alive?
Mr.Arnett. No.
Mr.Griffin. At the time you searched the basement, were the floodlights on from those TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I believe the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what youcall——
Mr.Griffin. No; I mean the floodlights.
Mr.Arnett. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I am not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth.
Mr.Griffin. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed yourself at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were floodlights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the cameraor——
Mr.Griffin. No; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject?
Mr.Arnett. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say that. Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless there is a red light burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Over where these TV cameras are, were there some lights placed in association with those cameras?
Mr.Arnett. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you thetruth——
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I mean, that [indicating] was burning.
Mr.Griffin. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, often they beam a lot of lights down?
Mr.Arnett. I know what you are talking about there.
Mr.Griffin. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it to be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this happened.
Mr.Griffin. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at the bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or cars in there?
Mr.Arnett. There was a car came out the ramp, after we got in line, and went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We brokeup——
Mr.Griffin. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked outover in there, could you see cars or people or anything over behind those TV cameras; could you see anything beyond those TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was before Lee Oswald was brought down.
Mr.Griffin. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage?
Mr.Arnett. I saw it coming out of the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. I don't believe I did.
Mr.Griffin. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether you could see objects in that area?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; I don't, I sure don't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage?
Mr.Arnett. Uh huh.
Mr.Griffin. Now, where did you watch it go?
Mr.Arnett. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the wall or something out of the way, for it to go by.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed across there before the car came out?
Mr.Arnett. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another all the way across there.
Mr.Griffin. Was that Sam Pierce's car?
Mr.Arnett. They say it was.
Mr.Griffin. They say it was. Do you remember how many people were in that car?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before Lee Oswald was shot?
Mr.Arnett. There was one come out and backed up in position.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; but was that the last one that went up the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Arnett. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them said there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but I thought at that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not going to swear that there were, because I could be wrong about that.
Mr.Griffin. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it really is. But what do you think you saw when this car—you say you think you saw two cars go up the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it.
Mr.Griffin. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go up the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the second car go up?
Mr.Arnett. Well, it wasn't very long.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to look over at that armored car?
Mr.Arnett. It was straight in front of me.
Mr.Griffin. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, wasn't it?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the way under the shed.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Captain Butler up there?
Mr.Arnett. Captain Butler?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember Captain Butler.
Mr.Griffin. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area?
Mr.Arnett. Sergeant Dean. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out of it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see the bottle fall out?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were standing?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Streetramp——
Mr.Arnett. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Not the entire time; there were times when you looked up that ramp too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around and looking back up that way.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember whether or not there was an officer stationed up there?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see him up there?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Did you know who he was?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; he was a regular officer, though.
Mr.Griffin. How did you know that?
Mr.Arnett. Well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his shoulder up here. A reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident investigator has a red patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a regular patrolman.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that ramp?
Mr.Arnett. Did I see him before he got up there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about that.
Mr.Griffin. Would you have remembered him, though; do you remember seeing him in the basement before he was sent up?
Mr.Arnett. Not that I recall; no sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see the green patch onhis——
Mr.Arnett. Uh-huh.
Mr.Griffin. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you?
Mr.Arnett. Not all the time.
Mr.Griffin. Were you wearing glasses that time?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like this [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses.
Mr.Griffin. But you still tellme——
Mr.Arnett. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off at a distance—I drive without glasses.
Mr.Griffin. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take off your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print and something like that [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Take your glasses off a second.
Mr.Arnett. Okay [complying].
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a colored spot on there [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. I see a red one.
Mr.Griffin. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet away from you, aren't I [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. I would say something like that.
Mr.Griffin. And how many red spots do you see on there?
Mr.Arnett. I only see one.
Mr.Griffin. One big one?
Mr.Arnett.Well——
Mr.Griffin. Or one blurred one?
Mr.Arnett. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my little finger, end of it [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Can you tell what sort of shape it is?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow?
Mr.Arnett. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which appears on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of it.
I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back here and I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not corrected at 20-20 vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. Is that right?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this man's green patch onhis——
Mr.Arnett. That's right. He was a patrolman.
Mr.Griffin. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp?
Mr.Arnett. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this place to get into position or something or other, I was facing that way.
Mr.Griffin. Sort of looking around generally up there; I mean as you walked around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to time glance up in this general direction?
Mr.Arnett. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You are talking about this "A" here [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. No; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the ramp [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. Oh, yes. I could from there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you glance up from time to time?
Mr.Arnett. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did or didn't. More than likely I did.
Mr.Griffin. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to time?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I would say I did; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have occasion to glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV cameras at any time?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked around, but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in your area on that side of the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his hand.
Mr.Griffin. Was he to your right or was he in front of you?
Mr.Arnett. He was to my right.
Mr.Griffin. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison?
Mr.Arnett. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other words, we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison was more or less like this. I was looking over his right shoulder [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out?
Mr.Arnett. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was directly—you know, next to him.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody behind you?
Mr.Arnett. Not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to state for the record that we have here a Mr. Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of Texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked into the room, and I am holding up, at about the same distance that I held this thing from Captain Arnett—is that right, Captain Arnett [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this Dictaphone card that I am holding up [indicating]?
Mr.Davis. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How many colored things do you see?
Mr.Davis. Six.
Mr.Griffin. He has gotbetter——
Mr.Davis. Five dots and a colored arrow.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow?
Mr.Davis. See what?
Mr.Griffin. Stem on the arrow.
Mr.Davis. Yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow.
Mr.Griffin. Have you got 20-20 vision?
Mr.Davis. (Nods head.)
Mr.Griffin. You don't wear glasses?
Mr.Davis. No.
Mr.Griffin. The record should reflect he did a better job than you.
Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to the back of the room over there.
Mr.Arnett. Back where?
Mr.Griffin. Step over to the doorway there.
Mr.Arnett. Okay.
Mr.Griffin. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card?
Mr.Arnett. I see green and white [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. See any other colors [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. There is a little lighter up at the top of it.
Mr.Griffin. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you see on there [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Well, to that end I see something light running up and down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter—kind of a blue color. Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's white [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was a Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is a picture of a Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background scenery which runs behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil gas seal.
I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can see it with your glasses on [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it?
Mr.Davis. Yes; I think that is a fair description of it.
Mr.Arnett. Do you think I got anywhere close to it?
Mr.Davis. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Griffin. I understand there was nobody standing behind you?