Mr.Arnett. Not that I know.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody directly to your left?
Mr.Arnett. To my left?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming from?
Mr.Arnett. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my left. Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie Harrison was in?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison was in front of me.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start another one here.
All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the map where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when Oswald came out [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, put an "A" where you were standing.
Mr.Arnett. [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where Blackie Harrison was standing.
Mr.Arnett. [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your left?
Mr.Arnett. A news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where this other one was.
Mr.Griffin. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" where that newspaper reporter was.
Mr.Arnett. [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the railing?
Mr.Arnett. There was one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he was in civilian clothes or who they were or anything about it.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put a question there.
Mr.Arnett. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where there was a newsman?
Mr.Arnett. Uh-huh [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Is this the man that had the microphone?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody in front of that man?
Mr.Arnett. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. I wouldn't say [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left?
Mr.Arnett. I would say they were.
Mr.Griffin. You don't remember?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How do you happen to remember these people that you put on the chart here?
Mr.Arnett. Well, standing there with them,well——
Mr.Griffin. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after Oswald was shot?
Mr.Arnett. I have seen them; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did yousee——
Mr.Arnett. That didn't have any bearing on that.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to see yourself in those movies?
Mr.Arnett. I am in some magazines.
Mr.Griffin. You were able to see yourself in the magazines?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, Sir.
Mr.Griffin. And is that how you were able todistinguish——
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Those people?
Mr.Arnett. Huh, uh. This letter that was written the 27th was before I ever saw any films or magazines, either one.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you thought was a newsman?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do they show Captain King?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How is it that just you come through on these magazine shots?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I don't know how they come through, but the Dallas Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, all the front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't show me at all.
Mr.Griffin. What magazine did you see yourself in?
Mr.Arnett. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From Childhood to—I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page your picture was on?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's not before the shooting, no.
Mr.Griffin. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting?
Mr.Arnett. Shows me scufflingwith——
Mr.Griffin. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there in that line, have you?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, where did you see that picture?
Mr.Arnett. In Four Days.
Mr.Griffin. In Four Days you saw that?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, either.
Mr.Griffin. Does it show Blackie Harrison in that picture?
Mr.Arnett. I believe it does.
Mr.Griffin. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days?
Mr.Arnett. In Four Days?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. No. There is three.
Mr.Griffin. Three pictures of you?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Are they all on the same page?
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page or not, but they are in the same connection.
Mr.Griffin. They are all in connection with the shooting?
Mr.Arnett. Do you want me to tell you what they are?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any other part (indicating).
Mr.Griffin. Just shows the top of your head?
Mr.Arnett. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my cap, from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there?
Mr.Arnett. That's the only one I have seen.
Mr.Griffin. Does it show anything but your face?
Mr.Arnett. From about right here up [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. About the middle of your chest up?
Mr.Arnett. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the gun, before I took hold of Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the crowd?
Mr.Arnett. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw him.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see him move in front of you?
Mr.Arnett. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Illustrate.
Mr.Arnett. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way (indicating).
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, about where Blackie Harrison was.
Mr.Arnett. All right.
Mr.Griffin. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your right.
Mr.Arnett. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Arnett. The firstthing——
Mr.Griffin. You were about that far away from him [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Something like that.
Mr.Griffin. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison?
Mr.Arnett. I would say something like that.
Mr.Griffin. And looking over his right shoulder?
Mr.Arnett. That's right. Lee Oswald came out——[indicating]——
Mr.Griffin. You are looking to your right?
Mr.Arnett. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, Leavelle and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on the left side of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack Ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how quick it happened.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you get back there in the position where you first saw Jack.
Mr.Arnett. [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is that about how far Jack wasfrom——
Mr.Arnett. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Is that how far he was from Harrison?
Mr.Arnett. He might have been a little further out this way from him, but (indicating).
Mr.Griffin. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was standing forward, he was standing between—in front of Harrison in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr.Arnett. Right.
Mr.Griffin. But he was off to Harrison's left?
Mr.Arnett. He was to Harrison's left a little bit.
Mr.Griffin. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him?
Mr.Arnett. Just as you and I [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Facing almost directly at Oswald?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. At that point?
Mr.Arnett. In this position [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back?
Mr.Arnett. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, who would have been directly—as you are standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main Street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along the row that you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main Street ramp [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said—I didn't know his name. I said he was to my right.
Mr.Griffin. To your left?
Mr.Arnett. Yes; left.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King?
Mr.Arnett. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I wouldn't say for certain [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man from the man you saw next to you holding the pad?
Mr.Arnett. Well, yes; I would say he was a different man.
Mr.Griffin. How are you able to state that?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. But did you see that newsman again?
Mr.Arnett. Did I see him again; is that the question?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. After the shooting?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not.
Mr.Griffin. How would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he have on a hat?
Mr.Arnett. I don't believe he did.
Mr.Griffin. Did he wear glasses?
Mr.Arnett. I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a suit on?
Mr.Arnett. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something of that type.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was shot?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I had been in this position, I said 15 minutes, and so far as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all that time, and this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this time. I believe they had all been there all this time.
Mr.Griffin. Now, about 1 minute before Oswald was shot there was a car that drove up and split the lines up?
Mr.Arnett. That's right. I don't know whether it was 1 minute.
Mr.Griffin. But shortly before?
Mr.Arnett. Shortly before there was; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car went up the ramp?
Mr.Arnett. I believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Are you sure of that?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I think he was.
Mr.Griffin. What makes you think he was?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I think I remember him being there with me.
Mr.Griffin. Have you talked to Captain King about this man?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr.Arnett. After the shooting?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. Graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun like this, and they were scuffling. I got him by the leg. I don't know what leg I got him by, but I got him by the leg, and I would say there were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. We carried him back into the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "I am Jack Ruby. All of you know me." They had him handcuffed by that time. I turned him loose and walked back over here where Oswald was laying [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, let me ask you this: how long were you in the building the rest of the day?
Mr.Arnett. I believe I went home about 1:30.
Mr.Griffin. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors about how Ruby got down into that basement?
Mr.Arnett. That day?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I didn't that day.
Mr.Griffin. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, and I hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short break, about 2 minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read the last part back?
(The record was here read by the reporter.)
Mr.Griffin. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to you. I am going to ask you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is the dictaphone belt case with the red arrow on it that you identified earlier in the testimony [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Do you want me to initial it [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on the side that I showed you?
Mr.Arnett. It was up like this. Yes [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. I mean the side [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you sign that?
Mr.Arnett. Just sign it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036.
Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings indicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were standing, [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Just before Oswald came out?
Mr.Arnett. [Nods head.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, just before Oswald came out, did you see a man right next to Blackie Harrison's left?
Mr.Arnett. To his left?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. As he would face up Commerce Street?
Mr.Griffin. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man to his left?
Mr.Arnett. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men manning the cameras?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may have been the last one in that row, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; Blackie?
Mr.Arnett. He was in front of me; yes. And I would say he was in the front row,but——
Mr.Griffin. Was there a solid line of people between Blackie and the TV cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in?
Mr.Arnett. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of Blackie, but I am not going to say that there were because the first time I saw Jack Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there was somebody right beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say.
Mr.Griffin. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over with the gun?
Mr.Arnett. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever he shot him he went down like that [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald?
Mr.Arnett. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see Ruby standing still?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of people or how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other side of him, but I am not going to be certain about it.
Mr.Griffin. Well, were there any other police officers up in the same row that Blackie Harrison was in?
Mr.Arnett. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on this wall over here, they were lined all the way up to the edge of it [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive instructions before Oswald came out as to where these newspaper people were to stand?
Mr.Arnett. Where the newspaper—no; I did not.
Mr.Griffin. Were you present when some men convened around Officer Jones, Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave some instructions?
Mr.Arnett. Sergeant Jones?
Mr.Griffin. No. Captain Jones.
Mr.Arnett. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I don't remember any group being around him.
Mr.Griffin. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street side?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir. I did not.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Well, what instructions did you have as to what you were to do there?
Mr.Arnett. Well, the main instructions I had was to—when we was placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be.
Mr.Griffin. But that was an hour before?
Mr.Arnett. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that door from the jail, jail office?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep the area free?
Mr.Arnett. Well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there.
Mr.Griffin. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do?
Mr.Arnett. I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Well, do you know if any of the other people had instructions like that?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. When did you write the report that has been marked as Exhibit 5033?
Mr.Arnett. When did I write it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Arnett. That one was—let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday night, I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Right. Now, Sunday was the24th——
Mr.Arnett. Monday would have been the 25th, Tuesday the 26th, be the 27th.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put composed November 27, and initial that [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. How do you spell composed?
Mr.Griffin. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d.
Mr.Arnett. [Spelling]C-o-m-p——
Mr.Griffin. [Spelling]—o-s-e-d.
Mr.Arnett. November 27?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the time that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the police department about the events?
Mr.Arnett. You mean how it was—how they were set up or something?
Mr.Griffin. No. Any conversations—did you talk with any of the police officers?
Mr.Arnett. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down thereand called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on Beckley, to work traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant Pierce. He asked me if I would get some reserves out there to help, that they was going to need some, and I said I will call and get some and go out there myself, and I did.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had happened on November 24?
Mr.Arnett. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were talking about this one particular area.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr.Arnett. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I have heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's when he walked in. Now, when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but I don't know, but I have heard that.
Mr.Griffin. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby might have got down in the basement?
Mr.Arnett. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As far as just individuals talking to anybody about it, I don't remember, you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got in there. But I am confident that he wasn't in there. I am confident of that, as I am that Jack Ruby shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be wrong about it, but now, that's just the way I feel about it, that he wasn't in that basement.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you think he was?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in there any length of time, I just don't believe he was.
Mr.Griffin. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing?
Mr.Arnett. Would I have seen him?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I would have.
Mr.Griffin. Why do you think you would have?
Mr.Arnett. Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and something happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you willalmost——
Mr.Griffin. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time—after Pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards the jail office?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just let anything—you can be driving down the road and a bird or something fly by, you will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over that rail I would have got the glance off of it.
Mr.Griffin. Could you see things happening over by that railing?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, but I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have saw him.
Mr.Griffin. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you?
Mr.Arnett. No. Sure wouldn't have.
Mr.Griffin. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across your shoulders—well, let's not do it that way. You have got this thing marked on the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV cameras. If you were drawing a straight line across the Main Street ramp, where would that line—how far would that line have come from the TV cameras that I have placed here [indicating]?
Mr.Arnett. How far would it come?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating]——
Mr.Arnett. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have been about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me about how far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV cameras; wouldyou say that the TV cameras and you were the same distance up the Main Street ramp or they were a little bit in front of you?
Mr.Arnett. They were a little in front of me.
Mr.Griffin. How much; by a little bit, would you say?
Mr.Arnett. Well, 5 feet.
Mr.Griffin. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less than 5 feet?
Mr.Arnett. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am just roughly guessing now.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were there people congregated around those TV cameras, in front of those TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. In front of it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember any of them being in front of it.
Mr.Griffin. How about along the sides of the TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the cameras, operating it.
Mr.Griffin. But there weren't other people crowded down around them?
Mr.Arnett. Not that I remember; no, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras?
Mr.Arnett. It could have.
Mr.Griffin. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would you have seen him?
Mr.Arnett. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't have; no, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around after Rio Pierce's car went up?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you mean you don't rememberor——
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember looking around, no sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement that you should have seen Ruby in there?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before you wrote this statement?
Mr.Arnett. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you.
Mr.Griffin. Who asked you to write this statement?
Mr.Arnett. Captain Solomon.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the statement whether you saw Ruby in there?
Mr.Arnett. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told you, the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so there would be no cause for him to ask me that, because I am telling you the truth about where he was when I saw him. He was too close.
Mr.Griffin. Well, do youfeel——
Mr.Arnett. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be some more shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, because I wasn't figuring on that first one being fired.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. All right [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't make any changes to them?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth as I can. Just sign itor——
Mr.Griffin. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one and this one here [indicating]?
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this deposition?
Mr.Arnett. Before tonight?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. Not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I took your deposition?
Mr.Arnett. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to my home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where the other one came from.
Mr.Griffin. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction in anything that you have told us, will you come to usand——
Mr.Arnett. Absolutely.
Mr.Griffin. And advise us?
Mr.Arnett. I am for you 100 percent.
Mr.Griffin. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all.
The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Griffin. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of President Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the Commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures I have been designated to come here to Dallas to take your sworn deposition.
You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry.
Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However, under the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it.
The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that surround the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death of Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that will develop a little background that people who are working on the assassination of the President can use to decide whether you were in a position to provide some physical action that something might have happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which they need more witnesses.
But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters which might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the Commission.
Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written letter.
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take your answer down.
Mr.Beaty. I am sorry; no.
Mr.Griffin. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney.
Mr.Beaty. What do I need an attorney for?
Mr.Griffin. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced.
Mr.Beaty. I don't need an attorney, I don't think.
Mr.Griffin. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Beaty. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Would you state your name for the record?
Mr.Beaty. Buford Lee Beaty.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty?
Mr.Beaty. 404 Freeman, Garland.
Mr.Griffin. When were you born?
Mr.Beaty. July 10, 1924.
Mr.Griffin. Where are you employed?
Mr.Beaty. Police department, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been so employed?
Mr.Beaty. Fifteen and a half years.
Mr.Griffin. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?
Mr.Beaty. Narcotics.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been there?
Mr.Beaty. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. What was the earlier period that you were with the narcotics bureau?
Mr.Beaty. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June.
Mr.Griffin. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau?
Mr.Beaty. Burglary and theft.
Mr.Griffin. Do you hold a particular rank?
Mr.Beaty. Detective; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize him?
Mr.Beaty. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell us how you happened to first become familiar with Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Beaty. When I first met him?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Beaty. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or something like that. But I knew of him before then.
He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows Jack Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. It was the Silver Spur?
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. In connection with your duties in the narcotics bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any investigation in connection with him?
Mr.Beaty. About narcotics specifically?
Mr.Griffin. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let me ask you that question generally.
Mr.Beaty. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything specifically at all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him about anything.
Mr.Griffin. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about somebody?
Mr.Beaty. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that ever took place with respect to Jack Ruby?
Mr.Beaty. None.
Mr.Griffin. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the last 3 years?
Mr.Beaty. Possibly, four, maybe five times.
Mr.Griffin. What were the occasions for seeing Jack?
Mr.Beaty. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street, and I run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say hello and look around. You say hello.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your office at the police department?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting. He came by—didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the office.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall about when that was?
Mr.Beaty. No; it seemed like it was about a month before all this happened, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down there. Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans.
The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and another. And how they went through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's court over all this. It was all in the papers, the whole story was and that is about the gist of what we talked about. And Jada testified at the previous thing.
The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I don't believe he made a special trip to our office, I think he came to the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license, or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him about it at all.
Mr.Griffin. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call it a bureau?
Mr.Beaty. Section.
Mr.Griffin. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service bureau, is that correct?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Within the special service bureau, there is a department which handles dancehall policemen?
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service bureau occupy the same suite of offices?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices as the dancehall bureau?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What other people occupy the same suite of offices?
Mr.Beaty. Vice squad.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember, Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on November 22, the day the President was shot?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; I was.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where you were when you first heard he had been shot?
Mr.Beaty. Trade Mart.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you go from the Trade Mart?
Mr.Beaty. Went back to our office.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain there?
Mr.Beaty. I think until about 9 o'clock that night.
Mr.Griffin. Were you on duty on the 23d?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d?
Mr.Griffin. That was Saturday.
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby in the hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department?
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on Saturday?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What time would you estimate that you left the police department on Saturday?
Mr.Beaty. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was probably 6:30 or 7 o'clock that night; Saturday night.
Mr.Griffin. Now do you recall whether when you left the police department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind of information that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved from the city jail to the county jail on Saturday?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What time did you report for duty?
Mr.Beaty. Eight o'clock that morning.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning?
Mr.Beaty. In the basement, I believe. No; that is not right. It is Sunday you are talking about now?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Beaty. I couldn't tell you to save my life.
Mr.Griffin. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come in the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and walk down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room?
Mr.Beaty. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Beaty. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main, I probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. If you don't remember, that is all right.
Mr.Beaty. I couldn't tell you.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the narcotics bureau?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is that on the third floor?
Mr.Beaty. No; on the second floor.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau?
Mr.Beaty. Until about 9:15 or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Then what did you do at 9:15?
Mr.Beaty. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman, I think, whose name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was guarding the entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to get coffee, stay around to see what was going on.
Mr.Griffin. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with in the narcotics bureau?
Mr.Beaty. No; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section.
Mr.Griffin. Any people from the third floor?
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know where they went after coffee?
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did they go out of the building?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; out of the building.
Mr.Griffin. Now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow Nielson.
Mr.Beaty. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of lingered behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them I would wait for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move Oswald, and I just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to.
Mr.Griffin. Did you—you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly soon?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Had you received some word before that?
Mr.Beaty. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the newspaper and radio.
Mr.Griffin. By this time when the boys in your group went out for coffee, had there been any instructions to standby?
Mr.Beaty. None.
Mr.Griffin. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help in the Oswald move?
Mr.Beaty. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked by, he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you."
Mr.Griffin. Did this take place in the basement?
Mr.Beaty. Right by the elevator door to the basement. He said there will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of how long this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came downstairs?
Mr.Beaty. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes before he actually came down and Ruby shot him.
Mr.Griffin. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix it in terms of that time rather than some specific time.
Mr.Beaty. Around 30 minutes or something like this.
Mr.Griffin. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to the FBI, you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw Jones. Did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview to Agents Dallman and Quigley—that was on December 3—did you have anything specific in mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock.
Mr.Beaty. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me to remain there. No; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of time, it seemed to me like.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point out, you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11:30?
Mr.Beaty. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10 o'clock. Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on their part writing it down?
Mr.Beaty. Well, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Go ahead.
Mr.Beaty. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he breezed through in just probably about 30 minutes—could possibly be longer—after Mr. Jones told me this. I waited around for probably another 4 or 5 minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the middle hallway. And they describe it here as a, whatever, I don't know, right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about 30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11:30, I have made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that.
Mr.Griffin. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out on the side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or whatever you think was the accurate time?
Mr.Beaty. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my life what time it was.
Mr.Griffin. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30 minutes before the shooting?
Mr.Beaty. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast along in there.
Mr.Griffin. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour?
Mr.Beaty. I don't think so; no, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank aboutthis, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't fair, would it be fair to change this time 10 a.m., toread——
Mr.Beaty. That it was 10 or 10:30, would that be all right, because I don't remember?
Mr.Griffin. To read a half hour or—to an hour before Oswald was shot?
Mr.Beaty. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is unless I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, and if you want to say 10 or 10:30, that would be about the same time, wouldn't it?
Mr.Griffin. Would it be just fair to say, "I am not certain about the exact time?"
Mr.Beaty. That would be fine.
Mr.Griffin. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write in there, "I am not certain about the time."
Mr.Beaty. [Makes statement and initials.]
Mr.Griffin. Put a date after your initials.
Mr.Beaty. 3-26-64. I don't even remember what month.
Mr.Griffin. All right, now, do you recall any of the people who came down in the contingent with Captain Jones?
Mr.Beaty. They are listed on the back of that, the best I remember.
Mr.Griffin. You have listed on page 32, of what we have labeled Commission Document 85 (Beaty Exhibit 5040), the names of about a dozen police officers. Did you see all these people come down together, or these people that you remember as having been in the basement?
Mr.Beaty. They came—let me read them.
Mr.Griffin. Let me read them for the record. B. H. Combest. J. H. Hutchinson.
Mr.Beaty. Those two, boy, they are supposed both special service officers, too, and I don't know how in the world they could have received word unless they called and told them to come down, because they were the only ones from the special service bureau down there with me at the time. I can't remember them getting off the elevator at the time, but CaptainMartin——
Mr.Griffin. Let me read them. W. J. Harrison.
Mr.Beaty. Yes; I remember him.
Mr.Griffin. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. James Watson.
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. L. D. Miller.
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. R. L. Lowery.
Mr.Beaty. Yes; he was on.