Mr.Hubert. By whom?
CaptainTalbert. Chief Fisher—before they let them into the ramp. By Sergeant Putnam, himself, as I recall.
Mr.Hubert. You don't know of any record of how many paddy wagons or other vehicles came down Main Street ramp after Vaughn was posted and until the shooting?
CaptainTalbert. I recall three in the reports. I didn't see any of it—of them, but I recall three in the reports. One being a paddy wagon. One vehicle contained two detectives. Another vehicle operated by R. A. Watts, with a juvenile prisoner. Watts was not permitted to leave the station and the prisoner was booked, and he was retained to assist in the security.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark for identification an FBI report of an interview which you made on November 24, 1963, Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, as Exhibit 5065, deposition of C. E. Talbert, and I have signed my name to it. It is a one page document. I am marking another document consisting of two pages. Placing upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5066, deposition of C. E. Talbert." I am signing my own name below that, all of which is on the first page of the document which is the FBI report by Special Agent Vincent Drain, dated November 25, 1963. It consists of two pages and I am placing my initial on the bottom right-hand corner on the second page. I also am marking for identification another document, being a copy of a letter apparently addressed by you, Capt. Cecil Talbert to Chief Curry, dated November 26, containing five pages. The first page I am marking as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5067, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name below that now, and I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of the following pages. I am marking on a single page document purporting to be an FBI report made by Special Agents Logan and Bramblett, dated December 10, 1963, by placing upon that document the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5068, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," and I have signed my name, and that document—that exhibit consists just of a single page. And finallymarking upon a report of an interview which you had with Special Agents Bramblett and Logan of the FBI, on December 12, the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5069, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," under which I am signing my name. Now, that document consists of eight pages, and I am marking the seven other pages with my initials on the lower right-hand corner, on each of the pages. Now, Captain, I ask you if you have had a chance to study and to read these various documents?
CaptainTalbert. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Let the record note, by the way, that Exhibit 5070, is the tour of the basement which has been previously identified and signed. In a moment I am going to ask you to identify and endorse your signature or initials below my signature or initials on each one of these pages of the various documents. In other words—in order to separate them, I direct your attention now to Exhibit 5065, being the FBI report of November 24, 1963. As to each one of these documents, I want to ask you this: Does that document correctly represent the truth and facts such as you know them? Has anything been deleted? Has anything been omitted? Do any facts stated need any modification or change of any sort whatsoever?
CaptainTalbert. You want me to read them again; do you, sir?
Mr.Hubert. Just enough to identify them. You have already studied them.
CaptainTalbert. The first documentmarked——
Mr.Hubert. 5065?
CaptainTalbert. 5065. In the last three and a half lines reading: "He said the press and other news agencies had set up for Oswald's transfer from the city jail to the county jail, and that day he did not feel the police department would want to cross the news agencies," and if those were my words it wouldn't be—it is probably a matter of semantics. Probably a matter of our conversation with the sheriff—after he conversed with me, I had a interview, a brief conversation with Newsom concerning the fact that chief would contact him upon returning to city hall, and I do not recall that. I don't recall that. I don't refute it. I just don't recall it. Shall I initial it?
Mr.Hubert. Please. If you will please sign your name under it. I understand, therefore, that you have no recollection of having said that you doubted that they were changing the plans because of any fear that they might have of crossing the press?
CaptainTalbert. Sure, it would be improper, and the—even an inference of a statement like that sort would be improper for a police captain to make, and those are not my words.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think you expressed any idea of the same nature, but in other words?
CaptainTalbert. Perhaps the time lapse, I can't recall, but, as I say, it may be a matter of semantics, and the way he understood it and what I had said. As I recall my conversation with him, it was rather difficult to get him back to the phone. I went through two or three people to get him to the phone, and as I recall about the conversation, it was rather brief and to the point, that I had contacted the chief and the chief would contact him when he got to the office, which would be between 8:30 and 9.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember discussing any possible change of plans at all with him?
CaptainTalbert. None. I discussed no change of plans with Mr. Newsom.
Mr.Hubert. Did you discuss the possibility of a change of plans in the light of thenew——
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall mentioning, in any way, the concept, the basic concept of that sentence, that is, that the press would be considered whatsoever in the thinking about those plans for the transfer?
CaptainTalbert. In conversing with the sheriff, and our conversation either from the sheriff or from me, and I think probably from the sheriff, the subject arose that the chief had told the press that they could arrive at the city hall at 10 o'clock, or thereabouts, the previous day, and that was with Sheriff Decker. Not with Mr. Newsom, as I recall it. Now, I have—several months have passed since—and my memory becomes vague on it, so, must have been—possibly maybea matter of semantics, maybe a matter of conversing, or conversation between Newsom and the sheriff of our having had this brief conversation. Now, the rest, when you ask if we had any conversation regarding a change of plan in the transferring, I answered you incorrectly and I don't recall discussing it with Newsom at all. I did discuss it with Sheriff Decker and said that the chief would contact him. Any discussion with him was very brief and that the chief would contact him about the transfer of Oswald when he arrived at the office.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Have you any other comments to make concerning this document?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Would you pass then on back to 5066, which also is an FBI statement.
CaptainTalbert. Yes, sir; on this document 5066, it indicates—and this too is a matter of semantics, I am thinking. It indicates that Ruby rushed in with newsmen. That—shall I read it and finish it?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, put the part you read in quotes and end the quote and make your comments. Just start off with the word "quote" where you want to start.
CaptainTalbert. "There were approximately 150 news reporters and television cameramen that——"
Closing the quote. The 150, in my opinion, mind, which is relatively fluid, by the way anybody will estimate a crowd, "150 including police officers, news media and television cameramen," approximately 150 in the basement. Now, not news media alone, and—" He stated in the rush to get down into the basement in which the loading ramp was located and Oswald was being brought down from the jail, it is highly possible that Jack Ruby may have been—walked down the ramp with the newsmen, unnoticed."
That is, again, something that I couldn't—could not and would not have stated, because the newsmen were in the basement. There was no rush of newsmen into the basement. They were in the basement, and they had been in the basement some hour before Oswald was brought into the basement. I don't know how this was injected into this report, but it is incorrect.
Mr.Hubert. All right, sir. Have you any other comments to make in regard to Exhibit 5066?
CaptainTalbert. Yes, "According to Captain Talbert, now, Will Fritz was in charge about removing Oswald to the Dallas County Jail, and the attempted removal of the prisoner Oswald about 11 a.m." That was my opinion. Shouldn't that be inserted there? It was my opinion that Captain Fritz was in charge of the removal of Oswald from the city jail to the county jail. I had no prior information on it, and still have no information on it.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what was the basis of your opinion?
CaptainTalbert. The fact that he wanted him in his office from the jail. He had taken him out of the jail on a "tempo," which is a temporary release from the jail to the CID bureau, or CID office, is the fact that he had him out of the jail at the time is what I based it on.
Mr.Hubert. I see. All right, now, have you any further comments on 5066?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I would ask you to sign your name below mine and initial these pages. Have you done that?
CaptainTalbert. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, pass then to 5067, and I will ask the same basic questions as to that document and its several pages.
CaptainTalbert. 5067, is my report to the chief of police, and I have no exceptions on it. I read the report, and it is, in fact, similar to one that I had issued to the chief regarding the incident on the date of the 26th—November 26th.
Mr.Hubert. You are initialing now each page below by initial, and you are signing your name to the first page below my signature?
CaptainTalbert. All right, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, will you turn then to Exhibit 5068, and address yourself to the same basic questions that I asked you originally.
CaptainTalbert. In Exhibit 5068, I have no exceptions whatsoever.
Mr.Hubert. Just sign your name below mine then. Finally that brings up to Exhibit 5069. Do you have any comments to make with reference to that document?
CaptainTalbert. Yes, sir; on Exhibit 5069, in there—and again due to semantics or to my lack of ability to express myself, some corrections that need to be made on the first page of 5069. It indicates "Captain Talbert directed Lieutenant Pierce to call in 3 squads from their district assignments from 3 different stations to take 4 individuals from the headquarters station." The word "individuals" should be squads.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you weren't talking about 4 people, but 4 squads?
CaptainTalbert. Four patrol squads.
Mr.Hubert. Which would constitute a number ofpeople——
CaptainTalbert. Which I had already directed him to get as many 2-man squads as possible. I do not have a copy of the details but I could get it.
Mr.Hubert. No, that's all right.
CaptainTalbert. The actual number—and on to the next page of the same exhibit, he added at this time that there were no reserve officers utilized in the basement of the police building, and that specific arrangements were made to inspect the vicinity of the basement. There were reserve officers used in the police building. When it says "basement,"—there were reserve officers used in the basement of the police building. This up here about the "CID," I mean the "detectives," rather than the "supervisor," that should be changed too, and "Pierce's car," also.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you are speaking of the fifth pageof——
CaptainTalbert. Let me initial that down there.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you were talking about something which appears on the fifth page of Exhibit 5069, in the top paragraph. Will you read the sentence, starting with the word "quote" and ending with the word "quote" and then comment upon the sentence?
CaptainTalbert. "Captain Talbert could also recall that upon arrival of the armored car, at the Commerce Street exit a plain car with three detectives were sent out the Main Street rampway so as to be in position in front of the armored car for the purpose of escort." The word "detective" should be changed to "three supervisors," "uniformed supervisors," and those men were Lieutenant Pierce and—it identifies them later, but they were uniformed supervisors, and this 5-minute element here, now,hold——
Mr.Hubert. All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
CaptainTalbert. On page 5, of the same exhibit,quote——
Mr.Hubert. First, top paragraph?
CaptainTalbert. The top paragraph quote, "Captain Talbert identified the occupants of this car as being Lieutenant Pierce, who was at that time driving, Sgt. J. A. Putnam who was in the right front seat, and Sgt. B. J. Maxey, he was in the left rear seat. He was later informed by Lieutenant Pierce that it was approximately 5 minutes prior to the shooting of Oswald that they had proceeded from the basement, left the city hall." That this seems to indicate the time element from the vehicle leaving the basement, and the time that Oswald was shot was indicated to me as being 5 minutes. That was incorrect and I believe now that the indication was that it was approximately 5 minutes from the time Lieutenant Pierce had left the homicide office until the time Oswald was shot.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your recollection is now that what Pierce told you later was that 5 minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting and the time prior thereto, that he had left the CID office?
CaptainTalbert. That's it.
Mr.Hubert. Whereas, the statement that you have just read and quoted would indicate that the 5 minutes was between the time of leaving the basement and the shooting?
CaptainTalbert. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And you think that it was a mistake, that you did not intend to convey that idea of what Pierce told you?
CaptainTalbert. That's quite correct. I didn't intend to convey that idea.
Mr.Hubert. That, in fact, is your recollection now of what Lieutenant Pierce told you?
CaptainTalbert. As I recall now, Lieutenant Pierce told me that from the time he left the basement until the time—and from the time he left the basement ramp and the time he reached the Commerce Street ramp, the shooting had occurred, and that time lapse would be a minute and three quarters, or 2 minutes at the most.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall whether Pierce ever talked to you about a 5-minute interval?
CaptainTalbert. The 5-minute interval, I can't recall; no, sir. I don't recall that, but if we want to leave it in here it could have been from the time—it would have been right from the time he left the homicide office until the time of the shooting. I don't recall the 5-minute interval. Now, at the time, it may have happened, but my memory now is—does not bring it back.
Mr.Hubert. Well, your correctionreally——
CaptainTalbert. Is incorrect?
Mr.Hubert. Is, in a way, incorrect, because you have corrected to refer to a 5-minute interval and you now tell me that you have no recollection of talking about a 5-minute lapse at all.
CaptainTalbert. Right, sir. I am merely trying to account for the minutes there in myown——
Mr.Hubert. But you do not recollect Pierce telling you anything about 5 minutes at all?
CaptainTalbert. I can recall the route he took and where he stopped, but I can't recall the 5 minutes entering into it at all,and——
Mr.Hubert. All right; any further corrections or observations?
CaptainTalbert. Rather a minute one on page 6. Let me get that. That is about passing out the pads. I don't—to get that identification—I don't think there is any point in answering that.
On page 7, of the same exhibit and the first paragraph, "In regard to this particular assignment Captain Talbert advised that he was acting on his own behalf concerning the security measures and it wasn't on instructions by any particular superior as to what he was or was not to do. At no time prior to the transfer did Talbert receive specific instructions concerning the details of the transfer, and most of this information was obtained during the course of the morning."
In essence, that's true, but to understand the setup of the police function—I was the patrol commander on duty during that period and there was no necessity to give me instructions by anyone in—any superior or any of my superiors as to any incident that would require emergency action or restraintive action. The patrol function is for an emergency function, and to take care of the immediate difficulties, or immediate trouble. So, it leaves the impression in that paragraph that someone was derelict in their not informing me prior to that morning, about not informing me of the course of the transfer and the other details, when actually, it wasn't necessary. And had Captain Souter or Captain Frazier been on duty I think they would have taken the same action. This is a patrol function.
Mr.Hubert. As I understand it, your comment is that what you did was standard operating procedure?
CaptainTalbert. Standard operating patrol function. If you find trouble arising, try to offset it.
Mr.Hubert. And that you would be expected to put into operation such standard operating procedure?
CaptainTalbert. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that they would understand that you would take such procedures without any particular orders?
CaptainTalbert. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That is the essence ofyour——
CaptainTalbert. The essence of what I was trying to convey. And, second paragraph, same page, it refers, "Captain Talbert continues to say he has never worked for Jack Ruby in any way whatsoever, but did hear through rumors that an individual by the name of Cox was alleged to be a reserveofficer, was at one time employed by Jack Ruby." That statement arose from having read the newspapers in which Cox gave a statement to the newspaper, the newsmen, and said that he had worked for Jack Ruby. It was not of my knowledge. I didn't know Cox. We have no police sergeant—that is supposed to have been a Sergeant Cox, and we have no police sergeant named Cox.
Mr.Hubert. As I understand your explanation, you do not deny that you made that statement, but the information you based the statement on you received from the newspapers and not from your own knowledge at all?
CaptainTalbert. True, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And do you have any knowledge on the point?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir; I still don't know Cox.
Mr.Hubert. Any other comments?
CaptainTalbert. And the fourth paragraph, same page. That is fourth paragraph, page 7, same exhibit. "In regard to any background information concerning Jack Ruby, Captain Talbert stated that he was never personally acquainted with Jack Ruby, and when he did see Jack Ruby, he could only recall that it was a familiar face. He related that he could not associate the name with the face, and was not aware that Ruby was a nightclub owner in Dallas * * *." I intended to convey that the face of Ruby did not associate itself in my mind with nightclubs in the Dallas area. Although, the name of Ruby associates itself with a reputation of Ruby by—as a nightclub operator in Dallas, quite vividly. I am quite familiar with his nightclubs by name, and associate the name with the unsavory background.
Mr.Hubert. And that knowledge concerning Ruby, had you used it prior to the events of the 24th?
CaptainTalbert. Yes; that knowledge existed prior to the events of the 24th, and were police records. And other police officers conveying their information to me as to activities around his club. I—around his sister's club out on Oak Lawn, the Vegas Club and the whole name of Ruby and Ruby's sister and their operation of their clubs was familiar to me.
Mr.Hubert. I think you used the word "unsavory" in connection with him?
CaptainTalbert. Yes, sir; I did. Can she hold this?
Mr.Hubert. Well, I'drather——
CaptainTalbert. You can put it in later.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Hubert. All right. Do you have any other things, other comments to make with reference to it?
CaptainTalbert. Not to that specific exhibit, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right; will you theninitial——
CaptainTalbert. I think that is the final one.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether it was ever considered moving Ruby by use of the Main Street basement entrance?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I mean moving Oswald.
CaptainTalbert. No, sir; I had no information on thatand——
Mr.Hubert. You did not hear that discussed?
CaptainTalbert. I had—I never heard any rumors to that effect. Didn't hear it discussed and I never heard any rumor.
Mr.Hubert. Is there anything else that you would like to say concerning any of the matters that we have discussed, Captain Talbert?
CaptainTalbert. Only say that with the explanation of how the basement has been secured, and my personal examination of the basement, I was of the opinion that no unauthorized person could enter that basement.
Mr.Hubert. To what did you attribute the failure of the security?
CaptainTalbert. The final reason, or the official investigation is one that I can't refute, and I am sure you are familiar with it, that Officer Vaughn on the Main Street entrance stepped out to the curb as Lieutenant Pierce pulled the plain car out to put it in front of the armored car just prior to the shooting, and that is the route that Ruby said he took into the station, and it—as far as any investigation has been, that is the route he took. Ican't——
Mr.Hubert. There is no positive evidence indicating any other route?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir; and the only—hold it a minute. I want—there was an extra police officer standing—still wanted in?
Mr.Hubert. Well, all right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Hubert. Is there anything else you would like to add other than what we have talked about?
CaptainTalbert. My primary concern that morning was with the crowd control, the mob control. Our warning had been against a possible larger group of people taking Ruby away from the officers. They had toldthe——
Mr.Hubert. You mean Oswald?
CaptainTalbert. I'm sorry. Taking Oswald away from the officers. They had been told, the person who answered the phone in the FBI office, that he wanted the information transmitted to the police department that no police officers would be injured, and, of course, that was discounted as no police officer being injured by it, but nevertheless, the crowd action was highly probable, and our primary objective was to prevent, or control, crowd action. I had a total of three gas grenade kits and projectile kits in the basement, that is my own, and the officer's riot guns, if that becomes necessary, although, the crowd can be controlled by gas if we couldn't do it with brute force, we could do it with gas. But the event that did occur, where one person dashed out of a crowd and shot a person and literally laid down, said, "Here I am. I did it," in pride was rather stunning.
Mr.Hubert. Now, captain, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission other than the interview that you have had with me?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. As to the interview with me, now, there was one yesterday, I think that is about it, is that right?
CaptainTalbert. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. They—the one with you yesterday and this one has been the only interview?
CaptainTalbert. The only interview has been with you yesterday.
Mr.Hubert. Now, is there anything that you can think of between the deposition you have given today and the interview we had, which is inconsistent with one another?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you, or did you provide any material or facts in any of the interviews which haven't been developed on the record?
CaptainTalbert. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Then one final thing; is there anything else you wish to say?
CaptainTalbert. I don't think there is anything else I could say that would add materially to your investigation, sir. It is—if there were, I'd be delighted to do so.
Mr.Hubert. If something should occur to you which has not been covered here or in any other report, I want you to feel free to contact us and tell us that you want to add what should be added.
CaptainTalbert. I would do so immediately. There is no one more concerned with finding out how Ruby got in the basement to shoot Oswald than myself, so, I am with you. I would love to find out how he got there.
Mr.Hubert. I certainly thank you, and on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you for your cooperation and time.
The testimony of Charles Oliver Arnett was taken at 8 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Griffin. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission itself was set up under an Executive order issued by President Johnson and congressional resolution passed by Congress.
Pursuant to these official acts, the Commission itself has promulgated a set of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure I have been authorized to come here and take your sworn deposition. Captain Arnett, I want to explain to you a little bit of the general nature of our inquiry here. We are concerned with the assassination of President Kennedy and the final death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have been empowered and requested by the President to investigate all the facts and evaluate and then report this back to the President.
We have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have some facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of Lee Oswald. However, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the examination, and if there is anything that you think would be helpful to us, why, of course, we want to take that. Mr. Hubert and myself are not working on an intensive basis on the other aspects of things, outside of Ruby. So what I will do is ask you a few general things which might have some bearing upon the death of the President that would enable other people to look at it and see if you were somebody that might have information, and then we will get into the other problems.
Now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general counsel of the Commission sent a letter to Chief Curry indicating that we would like to talk to you and certain other police officers. Actually, under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a written letter from the Commission, 3 days in advance of your testimony here, but the rules also provide that you can waive this notice. Before I swear you in, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the notice provision?
Mr.Arnett. Oh, sure.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and I see that you don't have an attorney, and I take it that you don't want one.
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me about the thing before I swear you in?
Mr.Arnett. No.
Mr.Griffin. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Would you give the court reporter your full name?
Mr.Arnett. Charles Oliver Arnett.
Mr.Griffin. And when were you born, Mr. Arnett?
Mr.Arnett. September 6, 1911.
Mr.Griffin. And where do you live now?
Mr.Arnett. 1223 South Waverly Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department, is that right?
Mr.Arnett. No. I am a captain on the reserve.
Mr.Griffin. Now, will you explain what the difference is between the reserve and the police department?
Mr.Arnett. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up that they needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any pay from the Dallas Police Department at all.
Mr.Griffin. Who does pay you?
Mr.Arnett. Nobody.
Mr.Griffin. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. I take it you have a regular occupation on the side?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir; I drive a truck.
Mr.Griffin. And for whom do you work?
Mr.Arnett. Certain-Teed Products Co.
Mr.Griffin. Is that here in Dallas?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been with them?
Mr.Arnett. Fourteen years.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been in the police reserve?
Mr.Arnett. A little over 10 years.
Mr.Griffin. Now, have you had any special training in connection with your duties in the police reserve?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir; went through school.
Mr.Griffin. Can you tell us a little bit about that school?
Mr.Arnett. Well, when I was going through, we went on Friday night, I believe it takes 7½ months, if I remember right, to complete the course.
Mr.Griffin. How long ago was this that you went through the school?
Mr.Arnett. Well, it's been a little over 10 years now.
Mr.Griffin. And you went every Friday night?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. For how many hours a night?
Mr.Arnett. Two hours.
Mr.Griffin. And as a result you became an officer in the reserve?
Mr.Arnett. Yes sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently would you be called to duty?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I was a sergeant to start with. We had 2 nights a month, I believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. You could come more times than that if you had the opportunity. Then I made lieutenant, which put me over more men, and April 6, either 3 or 4 years ago, I was made captain, and I have, I believe 80 some odd men under my company B. I am captain over company B.
Mr.Griffin. Now, after you go through the training school, do your men engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department?
Mr.Arnett. Well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on and special things like Texas-Oklahoma football rally. We work in that. State Fair of Texas. Usually somebody assigned to that every night during the Fair, and such as the President's parade. There were, I believe say 30 some odd—27 or 28, I believe it was, was assigned to that. Just things like that, or what we are assigned to, and then we have our regular nights that we ride squads, that we ride with squads orwhatever——
Mr.Griffin. I see. How often are you assigned to ride squads?
Mr.Arnett. Well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights.
Mr.Griffin. Is that once a week or once every 2 weeks?
Mr.Arnett. Now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the time they usually come down once a week.
Mr.Griffin. And for how long do they ride?
Mr.Arnett. Oh, usually report around 7 or 7:30 at night until 10:30, 11 o'clock. Some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual case.
Mr.Griffin. Are they in uniform at that time when they ride?
Mr.Arnett. Yes sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do they receive any pay for that?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, are there any other training programs that these men undergo once they have gone through the initial 7-month program?
Mr.Arnett. Well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. I would say for four or five Saturdays, something like that. I might be off a week or something like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for training out there.
Mr.Griffin. Anything else you can think of?
Mr.Arnett. Well, right offhand, I don't believe there are.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I want to mark these couple of documents here, and then we will talk about these [indicating].
Mr.Arnett. All right.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to mark what is an interview that you had with two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Mabey and Mr. Kenneth P.Hughes, on December 4, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5032. And the next document that I am going to mark is what purports to be a copy of a letter that you prepared—signed, rather, dated November 27, 1963, and addressed to Chief Curry, having to do with the events that you observed on November 24, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5033. Now, I am going to hand these two exhibits to you, Captain Arnett, and I want to ask you if you have examined those. Have you had a chance to read them?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that you want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Tell us where they are and we will see if we can't do that.
Mr.Arnett. Right here. "He was stationed at the door of Chief Curry's office—" [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, this is on Exhibit 5032, and you are referring to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. You stated that you were stationed in the door of Chief Curry's office. Go ahead.
Mr.Arnett. I was stationed at Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Arnett. See, they have got it wrong. They have got it down Chief Curry, when it was Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Would you take my pen, then, and make the change on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to indicate what's correct, and then initial it?
Mr.Arnett. Just scratch out this?
Mr.Griffin. I would say scratch out Chief Curry and write in Captain Fritz, if that's correct.
Mr.Arnett. How do you spell Fritz?
Mr.Griffin. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z.
Mr.Arnett. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Apostrophe s, I guess. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z-'-s.
Mr.Arnett. All right.
Mr.Griffin. Would you initial, put your initials by each one of those changes and put a date out there, 3-25-64. Are there any other corrections that you think ought to be made there?
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember any right now.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. Now, did you serve in connection with the President's parade?
Mr.Arnett. Was I at the parade?
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any duties as a reserve officer in connection with President Kennedy's arrival?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Would you tell us what those duties were?
Mr.Arnett. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, on Main Street.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when were you first told that you would have some responsibility in connection with the procession of the President through Dallas?
Mr.Arnett. Well, probably the day before. I am not going to say that for sure. I could be wrong a day or two, but I think it was the day before.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you have any men that you were responsible for supervising?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How many men did you supervise on that particular day?
Mr.Arnett. If I remember right, we had 27 or 28 reserves in the detail. We assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations up and down where the parade would be.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you attend any meeting prior to November 22, in which you got instructions as to what you were going to do in connection with the parade?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir; other than the assembly room that morning, when we assigned the men out.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the morning of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you remember?
Mr.Arnett. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular with respect to the parade?
Mr.Arnett. Other than just work in the parade is all.
Mr.Griffin. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to?
Mr.Arnett. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and it seems to me like it was Lieutenant ——. I can't recall his name right now. Maybe I will think of it directly.
Mr.Griffin. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the reserve officers in the assembly room?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you receive instructions at that time?
Mr.Arnett. At that time they were each one assigned their location to work.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Arnett. And not to—if they was booing the President or not—you know, getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if you saw anybody that was—acted as though they was going to bodily harm—you know, injure body, well, to notify the police officer, regular officers, you know, of what was going on.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall who gave—you say this was the lieutenant that gave these instructions?
Mr.Arnett. It was a lieutenant that assigned us out.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember who gave you these instructions that you are talking about?
Mr.Arnett. It seems like it was Captain Lawrence, but I couldn't swear to that, butit's——
Mr.Griffin. Did Captain Solomon have any responsibility in that regard?
Mr.Arnett. It may have been Captain Solomon that gave us that. It was a captain, I am almost certain and I feel like—I know Captain Solomon was in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him that gave us instructions.
Mr.Griffin. All right. The instructions that were given, did they have to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed to watch any other places besides the crowd?
Mr.Arnett. You mean any particular buildings?
Mr.Griffin. Or just buildings generally; were you instructed to watch the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I wouldn't say that anything like that in particular was named, but it was, you know, to watch and see—keep the crowd back out of the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there against the President's car.
Mr.Griffin. Now, had you served in connection with other parades?
Mr.Arnett. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Any other Presidential or political parades like this?
Mr.Arnett. At one time Vice President Nixon came to the opening of the Fair, and I was there for that. Some man walked up to me and told me that he would like to present a pair of boots to the Vice President. A Secret Service man, I suppose, was standing close enough that he heard what the man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and I told him, and he said, "Certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. Get his name and address and if he wants to mail the Vice President a pair of boots he can later." That's all.
Mr.Griffin. Now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would normally be given at any other parade that you worked in?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I wouldn't think so.
Mr.Griffin. I mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you into the assembly roomor——
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Then give instructions as to what you should do and what to watch out for?
Mr.Arnett. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether there were any men at all of the reserve officers assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Arnett. I don't recall any.
Mr.Griffin. Now, the fact that you don't recall; would you have been made aware of that?
Mr.Arnett. I had a list of it.
Mr.Griffin. You did. And did that list show the areas where they were assigned?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you still have a copy of that list?
Mr.Arnett. Captain Solomon does.
Mr.Griffin. Now, on this list did it show where each particular man was to stand, was to be placed?
Mr.Arnett. They would either be on the west side of Harwood or they would be on the east side of Harwood, between block so-and-so; Main the same way.
Mr.Griffin. But would it show Charles O. Arnett, corner of Main and Harwood?
Mr.Arnett. I was working at large.
Mr.Griffin. Well, would it show, if I were working there, would it show Burt W. Griffin, corner of Main and Harwood?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. What did you do when you heard that the President had been shot?
Mr.Arnett. Had an aunt that was to be buried at 2 o'clock that afternoon, and the President's parade was later than it had been predicted, and when it was over with, prior to the President's arrival at the—between Harwood and Pacific on Main, a young lady in her twenties, maybe 30 years old, came up to me and said, "There is some kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy handcuffs and a knife." I said, "Would you show them to me?" She said "Well, I rather not." So I went and got Earl Sawyer, a police officer that was working the corner of Harwood and Main, and told him of it. He and I went back to the lady and he asked her. She said, "Oh, it's just a toy pistol." But some little girls there with us told us where they were, about where they were standing, and we walked up to them, asked them about the gun and stuff. They said the boy with the gun had walked off, but one of them give us a pair of handcuffs and a knife, and I taken him, and Sawyer went with me, and we carried him to the juvenile department up on the third floor.
Mr.Griffin. Was that a real knife that the kid had?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. The gun turned out to be a blank, like they shoot—oh, at starting races or something like that, you know. When the parade was past us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group come up to me and asked me when his buddy would be turned loose. I said, "I don't know, son, but I will go up there with you to try to find out where he is." So we went up there on the third floor of the juvenile department. While I was in there someone rushed in and said, "The President has been shot."
Mr.Griffin. Who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile department; do you recall any of the officers that were there?
Mr.Arnett. No; I believe Captain Martin—now, I could be wrong on the name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. You know, the captain that they—that had the kid that we had carried up there. So I came back downstairs then and I saw two or three highway patrol, driver's licensemen——
Mr.Griffin. Let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names ofpeople who were in that department, juvenile department, and see if you recognize any of those as having been present. Was Detective Lowery there?
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember him being. Now, he may have been.
Mr.Griffin. Officer Goolsby there?
Mr.Arnett. I don't recall him.
Mr.Griffin. Was Detective Miller there?
Mr.Arnett. Well, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't say without telling you the truth.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; do you know L. D. Miller, Louis D. Miller?
Mr.Arnett. I don't know whether I do or not. I do know Lowery, and I do know theofficer——
Mr.Griffin. Lowery and Goolsby. How about the Officer Harrison?
Mr.Arnett. Blackie Harrison?
Mr.Griffin. Blackie Harrison?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know him?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was he there at the time?
Mr.Arnett. I don't recall him being there at the time.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Arnett. That was when I carried the second boy up to see about his buddy?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I went downstairs and on the street. As I say, I saw three or four Texas Highway Department driver's license men, and I said, "The President has been shot." And they said, "Oh, Arnett, what size camera was he shooting?" They thought, you know, I was joking. So I went on and got in my car. By that time squads were going everywhere.
Mr.Griffin. Was this your private car?
Mr.Arnett. Yes; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into civilian clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral.
Mr.Griffin. Now, which way did you drive?
Mr.Arnett. I believe I went down Young Street. I did. I went down Young Street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everythinggoing——
Mr.Griffin. Young Street in what direction?
Mr.Arnett. West.
Mr.Griffin. Headed west?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place?
Mr.Arnett. Jackson runs along beside it.
Mr.Griffin. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus station?
Mr.Arnett. Did I go by it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Arnett. I would have been one block south of it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what time would you estimate that it was that you went over the Houston Street viaduct?
Mr.Arnett. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to Grapevine, which is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at 2 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is there a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go to Zangs?
Mr.Arnett. I went Zangs to Jefferson.
Mr.Griffin. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any point in your trip out there?
Mr.Arnett. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Of any importance to the Commission?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the funeral, or wherever you had to go?
Mr.Arnett. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived at my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say, "A police officer has been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, "I believe he is dead." And I changed my clothes right quick and got in my car to go to Grapevine. I came back down Clarendon to the R. L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. Thornton Expressway to Highway 114—well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, you know, automatically, Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this transaction of the police officer.
Mr.Griffin. Were you listening on a police radio?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can be heard on ordinary radio receivers?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of special adaptation do you have to have on your receiver to pick this up?
Mr.Arnett. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio.
Mr.Griffin. Is this an FM converter; do they broadcast on an FM frequency, do you know?
Mr.Arnett. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit that. You couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter to go with your radio to get it. And I listened to the move from the library over in Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, and was listening to it when they got him, but I was at Grapevine.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police cars in from the outlying districts?
Mr.Arnett. They were giving a description of the man that they had a description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in the library over in Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then they moved to the Texas Theater.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on Friday, after you heard that Tippit had been shot?
Mr.Arnett. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and worked on the third floor at the elevator.
Mr.Griffin. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third floor?
Mr.Arnett. I would say 6 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third floor—let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor?
Mr.Arnett. That's what I started doing.
Mr.Griffin. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator before you arrived, before you got there?
Mr.Arnett. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there before I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, and Sergeant Dugger, were there with me when I was working there.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Did you replace anybody?
Mr.Arnett. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because I couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you get your instructions from?
Mr.Arnett. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now.
Mr.Griffin. Is he a regular sergeant?
Mr.Arnett. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you ride on the elevator?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they had to show their identification.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby?
Mr.Arnett. Did I recognize him?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point?
Mr.Arnett. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of identification did you ask for when people got off of the elevator?
Mr.Arnett. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. You would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I was—I didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from so far up. One man told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him up and told him the President had been killed, and he was there that night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There was one man in particular that I remember, that came up. He said he was a postal inspector.
Mr.Griffin. Postal inspector?
Mr.Arnett. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk to Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or he had a key and he wanted to see if it would—was to that box.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the elevator?
Mr.Arnett. I would say four. Two elevators.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do about people who came up, who said they came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with some other business other than being a photographeror——
Mr.Arnett. If they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and told him to go downstairs and see them.
Mr.Griffin. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace card, would you have admitted him?
Mr.Arnett. A justice of the peace?
Mr.Griffin. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those?
Mr.Arnett. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you have let him in?
Mr.Arnett. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper identification, without notifying one of these regular officers standing there.
Mr.Griffin. Would you have considered this a proper identification?
Mr.Arnett. I don't remember having that come up. Now, there were two or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. I don't know where he was from. He might have been from Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any lawyers come up?
Mr.Arnett. Lawyers?