The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 3:55 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Griffin. I will swear you in, Mr. Miller.
Mr.Miller. Before we do that, what are we doing here?
Mr.Griffin. We are taking your deposition.
Mr.Miller. I'd like to understand what we are doing here first.
Mr.Griffin. Well, all right. I'll be happy to explain it to you. First of all so that we can get the record straight, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. And the Commission has been appointed under Executive Order 11130, issued November 29, 1963, by President Johnson, under joint resolution of Congress No. 137, to investigate the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the other circumstances that were attendant on these two offenses. Now, I have been authorized, under the rules of the Commission, to take your sworn deposition, and Chief Curry has a copy of that authorization. I will be happy to show it to you if you care to see it. Our particular interest in your testimony is to determine what facts you knowabout the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, but also to determine any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry which the Commission is authorized to go into. Now, you are here today because we have made a request from the General Counsel on the Commission staff, and pursuant to the rules adopted by the Commission, and we have made the request to Chief Curry. Now, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having this deposition taken, and if you would like that we would be happy to do that. We had presumed that probably the police officers would prefer to have the notice waived. You are also entitled to have an attorney present during this interrogation. Now, I have no objection in any way you want to handle this. I want you to be perfectly frank in telling us, because we have gone ahead, as I said, simply on the assumption that you probably would prefer to waive these matters, but if you would like to have the written notice and would like to have a copy of the authorizing resolution, or would like to have an attorney present during this deposition we would behappy——
Mr.Miller. No; I just want to understand what is going on.
Mr.Griffin. Well, do you have any question that you want to ask me about it? I have given you a general statement here.
Mr.Miller. What will this deposition be used for?
Mr.Griffin. Well, this deposition will be made a part of the Commission's files. It will not be turned over to any member of the police department. These files will remain in the possession of the Commission, and on the basis of all of the investigation which we are conducting here, why, there will be a report written. Now, I can't tell you what is going to happen to the files after—and that means this deposition—after the Commission issues its report. I would like to be able to give you the assurance that it will be impossible for anybody to ever see this deposition. I can't, in honesty, tell you that, because I don't know that that is true. On the other hand, I don't know that it is not true, but basically, it will be used to write a report, and your testimony that you would give would be one of probably close to 250, maybe 500 depositions that are going to be taken during this period. I think 500 might be a pretty fair estimate, together with thousands, and probably approaching ten thousand pages of investigative reports and other documents also in addition to all these investigative reports. That is where it is all going to wind up. But, I can assure you of this: That no copies of this are going to be turned over to any member of the police department or any official of the State of Texas as such. Now, whether or not the thing will be accessible because they are all deposited in the archives, and years from now somebody could go and look at them, I don't know the answers to that.
Mr.Miller. Well, is what you want from me a statement of what happened down there? Is that what you are getting at?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; but let me tell you this, too, that if you feel that you would prefer to talk about this thing off the record and that you think you would have important information to give us that you prefer to be kept—to have some assurances that your confidences would be kept completely, I would be happy to defer this deposition and do it in such a way that no one would know the reason for it, and I would check with our people in Washington to see if there weren't some arrangements which could be made for it, because we are most concerned with getting the truth, and as much information—I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't tell the truth, that we all know, and I would appreciate if there were better circumstances under which we could do this. I would inquire into it and I would make this a matter of complete confidence between us.
Mr.Miller. Well, there is nothing that I know that possibly a hundred other people don't know, so, that part don't bother me, but I don't understand coming down and giving a statement, that I am supposed to stand, and swearing, and all that part of it.
Mr.Griffin. Well, this is just as—I am sure you have testified before grand juries.
Mr.Miller. I sure have.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, you have been sworn when you testified there. Only they don't have a court reporter in the grand jury. I don't know about Texas,but in Ohio we don't have a court reporter present. I do have the feeling in talking to you that maybe you would like to do this under some other circumstances, and I would be happy to explore this.
Mr.Miller. I understand that you want a statement from me.
Mr.Griffin. Well, I am going to examine you.
Mr.Miller. And I'll be more than glad to tell anything I know about it, but I don't understand swearing in. This is not a court.
Mr.Griffin. Not a court in the sense that anybody is on trial, but it is a—let me explain this to you, that we have authority to administer the oath, and we have authority to punish for all consequences in violation of the oath. The contempt provision of the Federal Code applies to this proceeding. We also have authority—I don't have this authority personally, but there is a provision granted that we can grant immunity from prosecution. If you feel that there will be some evidence that you wouldn't want to give for one reason or another, we have authority to grant immunity from prosecution. I don't have that authority here, but—and I do want to make it clear that you can have a right to have an attorney present, and many of the witnesses do have attorneys. Now, on the other extreme, if you would like to have a public hearing, we will open the hearing up to the public, but we haven't done it as a matter of routine except upon request, because we thought that most people prefer not to have it conducted in public, but that has been done, and we can do that.
Mr.Miller. I still don't understand the reason of it. Are you going to use this thing to try to prosecute me?
Mr.Griffin. No.
Mr.Miller. What are you going to use it for?
Mr.Griffin. We have no authority to prosecute anyone except for perjury before the Commission. Now, we—our instructions are—let me get a copy of the resolutions. Let me suggest that we handle it this way. I have got a copy here of the resolutions, Executive order signed by President Johnson, and the joint resolutions of Congress. The rules of the Commission and a memorandum dated March 20, 1964, from Mr. Rankin, who is the General Counsel of the Commission authorizing Mr. Hubert and me to administer your oath and take your deposition. Now, I think that what I prefer to do here so that you can be sure what you want to do, and I don't want to put you under any pressure. Now, I would like to give you this and have you try to find another room out here and look at this, and read it over, and think about this and ponder it as long as you want, and I want to give you assurance that I am going to call another—I am going to call Officer Montgomery in here and proceed with him. I am not going to tell him that I have not completed your deposition or anything like that. I want to be sure that as far as anybody is concerned whatsoever, what has transpired here is completely routine so that any decision you make, I can give you as much assurance aspossible——
Mr.Miller. All I wanted to know is the purpose of the thing.
Mr.Griffin.Well——
Mr.Miller. And if I find out we can go on with it.
Mr.Hubert. Why don't you go ahead and read this and let me go ahead with Montgomery, and if you want I will tell Montgomery that you went on.
Mr.Miller. Well, now, do you want me to come back some more, or what?
Mr.Griffin. No; I'dlike——
Mr.Miller. What time is it now? It is 4:15. I am due at home at 4:30.
Mr.Griffin. I don't want you to take that away, and I think that maybe it would be better if you waited around. Could you call your wife and meet me back here at 5 o'clock, and why don't you wait for me in my office?
Mr.Miller. Well, now, could we get on with the thing? I am trying to explain to you, I have got small kids be coming home from schooland——
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh. Well, would you rather think about it and come backsome——
Mr.Miller. Well, if we can't take care of it today, I would like to come back tomorrow.
Mr.Griffin. Well, I can go ahead, you know. I want to make sure that you are satisfied in your own mind about everything before we start to ask any questions, and if you have any reservations or questions that I haven't answeredI want you to look at those materials, and I would be happy to set it up for tomorrow if you would prefer to do it that way.
Mr.Miller. I sure would.
Mt.Griffin. All right. Would you—let's see, you would want to take that home with you, wouldn't you? Let me do this. Let's go back to our office and let me get the girl to Xerox off another copy of this.
Mr.Miller. All right.
Mr.Griffin. And let us set this up for 8:30. What time are you on duty tomorrow?
Mr.Miller. 8.
Mr.Griffin. What is the easiest way for you to handle it?
Mr.Miller. You mean time?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Miller. Probably 9 o'clock would be the easiest.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Why don't you come in at 9 o'clock then?
Mr.Miller. Okay.
Mr.Griffin. All right. That's all.
The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Griffin. I might state for the record and for your information, Mr. Ward, Mr. Miller, and I talked on the record a short while yesterday afternoon, and I don't believe that, when I was talking with him, that his name was entered into the record, so I think what you will have to do is get in touch with the court reporter—is it Iris Lennon or Leonard?—and find out from her just where that is so that these two different sections can appear together.
Before I ask you to be sworn, Mr. Miller, I want to ask you if there are any questions that I can—that you have of me, I can tell you anything further about the nature of the investigation that is going on here?
Mr.Miller. No; and had you explained to me yesterday what kind of information you were taking, what it would be used for, anything at all about it before you started to swear me in, I believe we would have got a lot further yesterday than we did.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you want to raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Miller. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Would you state your name, please?
Mr.Miller. Louis D. Miller.
Mr.Griffin. And how do you spell that?
Mr.Miller. [Spelling] L-o-u-i-s.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Miller?
Mr.Miller. 1231 Ravina Drive, Garland, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. When were you born?
Mr.Miller. September 4, 1930.
Mr.Griffin. Are you employed?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where are you employed?
Mr.Miller. City of Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Griffin. And how long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Miller. Since August 1955.
Mr.Griffin. And what is your rank in the department?
Mr.Miller. Detective.
Mr.Griffin. Are you assigned to any particular bureau?
Mr.Miller. Juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. Since October of last year.
Mr.Griffin. And where were you before that?
Mr.Miller. Radio patrol division.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Whose platoon did you work on?
Mr.Miller. The last platoon that I worked on was Captain Souter's.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I understand that you were off duty on Friday, November 22, is that right, of last year?
Mr.Miller. The best that I remember, yes, I was off the day the President was shot.
Mr.Griffin. And how about the next day, Saturday, November the 23d, were you on duty or off duty that day?
Mr.Miller. On Saturday, I should have worked. I don't remember specifically any particular incident that happened that day that would bring to my mind that I did work.
Mr.Griffin. Well, is there any reason for you to think that you didn't work that day?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any records of any sort back at the police department or notes that you have maintained which would indicate whether or not you worked?
Mr.Miller. There should be some, yes.
Mr.Griffin. What sort of records would those be?
Mr.Miller. Offenses that was assigned to me, prisoners handled.
Mr.Griffin. I wonder if you could, when you return to the police department, if you could check to see if those records are available and provide copies of them to us, or if you can't make the copies, why if you will provide us with the originals, why we will make the copy and return the originals to you. Would you be willing to do that?
Mr.Miller. If I could. I would have to look through things that I have in my locker, a place there, and see if I have any there that were assigned to me on that date, otherwise it would be next to impossible, and see what prisoners I did handle.
Mr.Griffin. Are you supposed to make a report at the end of the day as to your activities?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Well, I don't want you—I am not asking you to go through that and see what prisoners you handled if you can't find it readily, but it would be easy to find some record of whether you were on duty at all, wouldn't it?
Mr.Miller. It would be marked in the duty book.
Mr.Griffin. All right. If you would, check that and let us know, and if you do have any notes that pertain to those days, I would appreciate that, also. All right. Now, do you have any recollection of when you first heard in any way that Lee Harvey Oswald might be moved to the Dallas County Jail?
Mr.Miller. No; I don't remember when I heard it or how I heard it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall coming to work Sunday morning on the 24th?
Mr.Miller. I remember being at work. As to the time that I came to work, no.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what time you usually report to work?
Mr.Miller. I usually get in the office sometime between 7 and 7:30 and some days earlier than that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any reason to think you arrived any later than7:30——
Mr.Miller. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Griffin. On Sunday?
Mr.Miller. I couldn't be definite on it because I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. Do you ride to work when you come, take public transportation, or do you drive?
Mr.Miller. I drive.
Mr.Griffin. And do you drive in alone or with somebody else?
Mr.Miller. I drive in alone.
Mr.Griffin. Alone?
Mr.Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, on Sunday, do you recall whether you drove in alone or with somebody else?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall driving in at all that day, as far as that goes, but I am sure that I did, and I am sure I drove alone.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what you did in the early morning when you got to work on that Sunday?
Mr.Miller. Nothing definite, no.
Mr.Griffin. Well, did you report up to the third floor to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what you did when you got to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. No, sir; nothing definite.
Mr.Griffin. I take it that you have some indefinite ideas of what happened up there?
Mr.Miller. Well, I can tell you what I usually do when I come up.
Mr.Griffin. Well, was this a usual day?
Mr.Miller. As far as I was concerned, in my business, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember the people who were on duty up there on Sunday morning?
Mr.Miller. Let's see. Detective Goolsby, Detective Cutchshaw, [spelling] C-u-t—I believe he spells his name [spelling] C-u-t-c-h-a-w. I am not sure about that spelling. Detective Lowery.
Mr.Griffin. Anybody else?
Mr.Miller. Cutchshaw, Lowery, Officer J. W. Harrison.
Mr.Griffin. Is that "Blackie" Harrison?
Mr.Miller. Yes; and Policewoman McLine [spelling] M-c-L-i-n-e.
Mr.Griffin. Is Policewoman McLine attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. The people that you have listed, is that the full staff of people who are on duty regularly at that time or are there other people also ordinarily who would be on duty?
Mr.Miller. No; who is on duty would depend on the days off.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if there were any other people, whose names you might not recall, who were also on duty in the juvenile bureau that day?
Mr.Miller. Captain Martin that day, the best that I remember.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Did you see him up in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Anybody else that you can think of?
Mr.Miller. No; that I can think of.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got up to the juvenile bureau that morning, did you talk to any of these people?
Mr.Miller. I am sure I did.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you talk to up there?
Mr.Miller. I probably talked to everybody that was there.
Mr.Griffin. All right. When you arrived, were there television cameras on the third floor hallway?
Mr.Miller. The best that I remember, there were.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether or not those TV cameras were manned?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember definitely whether they were or not, but I don't believe so.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Can you give us some sort of idea of how crowded the hallways, that hallway was, when you arrived for work in the morning?
Mr.Miller. It wasn't crowded at all when I arrived at work.
Mr.Griffin. Now, had you been there before when it was more crowded than that?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Directing your attention to Saturday, can you give us a description of what the status of that hallway was on Saturday?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember any definite time or whether it was Saturday, but I had been in the hallway when it was almost impassable.
Mr.Griffin. Were you in the police department on Friday at all?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. I understand at the time that you remember this hallway being impassable was sometime before you arrived for work on Sunday?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. That would have had to have been Saturday?
Mr.Miller. It probably was on Saturday, but I don't remember. I can't remember that it was definitely Saturday or any certain time on Saturday.
Mr.Griffin. Do you think it would have been on Friday?
Mr.Miller. No; it wasn't on Friday, because I didn't go near the police station on Friday.
Mr.Griffin. Now, while you were in the homicide or in the juvenile bureau on Sunday, did any newspaper people or radio or TV people come into the juvenile bureau for any purpose?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember any specific ones coming in, but they were in and out, so I am sure they did.
Mr.Griffin. And what was their purpose in coming in and out?
Mr.Miller. They usually come in to use the telephone.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you people able to conduct your activities in the juvenile bureau with these newspaper people coming in and out?
Mr.Miller. They didn't interfere with my business. As far as the other people assigned to the bureau, I don't know whether they interfered with them or not. I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of business were you transacting in the morning, Sunday morning?
Mr.Miller. Just routine work is all I recall. If you would give me something definite to go on.
Mr.Griffin. Well, were you investigating any particular cases?
Mr.Miller. At what time?
Mr.Griffin. Prior to the time that you went down to the basement.
Mr.Miller. Prior to that time, an officer had brought in two small children, as I recall. I don't now remember what they were brought in for, but I was working them, doing the paper work on them.
Mr.Griffin. How soon was that after you got up to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. That was later on in the morning, the best I remember, and I was working on the paperwork on them when I was told to report to the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Prior to bringing in those two children, did you talk with anybody in the juvenile bureau about the prospective move of Lee Harvey Oswald to the Dallas County Jail?
Mr.Miller. I could have. I don't recall it, though. In fact, I didn't even know that—for sure that Oswald was still in our jail.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, you heard the newspaper reporters come in and out of the office, didn't you?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember any specific incident of when they came in and out. Like I said, they probably did.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear them talk on the telephone?
Mr.Miller. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying.
Mr.Griffin. Were you close enough to them to hear what they were saying?
Mr.Miller. I didn't try to hear them.
Mr.Griffin. Were you close enough to hear them if you had tried to hear them?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall it if I was.
Mr.Griffin. Whereabouts in the juvenile bureau did you work that day?
Mr.Miller. We have several desks up there, and it is possible that I worked at all of them some time during the day. I don't remember any particular desk or anything like that.
Mr.Griffin. Now, is the juvenile bureau, is it one large room or does it have a series of rooms in it or what?
Mr.Miller. It has several rooms, I would say. It has a reception office affair in front, and the captain's office is off of that, and then a short hallway,and the lieutenant's office, there is a holdover room for children, and then the main office, and then off of the main office we have two interrogation rooms.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you have a desk in any one of those offices assigned to you?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were the newspaper reporters, did they come into the main office on Sunday?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall any specific incident where they came in, but I feel sure that they did.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you work at any time out in the front office or the reception area?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Mr.Griffin. Did there come a time when you were requested to go down into the basement?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what is your best estimate of when that was?
Mr.Miller. I wouldn't have any idea.
Mr.Griffin. Before you got this request, had you been down in the basement that day?
Mr.Miller. It is possible that I had, but I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you were asked to prepare a report of your activities on the 24th, isn't that right, the police department?
Mr.Miller. I was asked to write a letter and put in the information of what position I was in down in the basement at the time Oswald was shot and things of that nature, not everything that I did that day.
Mr.Griffin. When were you requested to make this report?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember what day it was. I don't believe it was on that Sunday.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what you were told to do when you were asked to make out the report?
Mr.Miller. No; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Who instructed you to make out the report?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall who that was.
Mr.Griffin. Well, was it just a general announcement that was made by one of the chiefs or did somebody in particular approach you?
Mr.Miller. It was probably someone in particular, but I don't recall who it was.
Mr.Griffin. Did you discuss this report with anybody before you made it?
Mr.Miller. It is possible that I did, but I don't recall it if I did.
Mr.Griffin. Who was it on the 24th that asked you to go down into the basement?
Mr.Miller. The best I recall, it was kind of a general announcement. Who came up and requested or ordered, or however you wanted to put it, all of the men to go to the basement, I don't know who that was. As I say, I was working the papers, typing. I hadmy——
Mr.Griffin. Where were you working at that time?
Mr.Miller. I was working in the main office.
Mr.Griffin. And who was in the main office with you at that time?
Mr.Miller. Well, since we had been instructed early in the morning to remain in the office until further notice, I would have to assume that all of the people assigned up there for that day were present.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember anybody who was there?
Mr.Miller. The only one that I can recall specifically is Policewoman McLine, because after this announcement, request, order, whatever it was, was made for us to go to the basement, I asked her if she would finish the paperwork on the two small children for me.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if Officer Lowery was still there?
Mr.Miller. No; I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. Or Officer McMillon?
Mr.Miller. Officer McMillon doesn't work out of our office, so I am sure he wasn't there.
Mr.Griffin. Officer Harrison?
Mr.Miller. Officer Harrison works out of our office, and he was on duty that day, but as far as remembering it, anyone other than Policewoman McLine in particular, I couldn't do it, because I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Well, what did you do—well, this person who came into your—who requested that you go down, did that person actually walk into the juvenile bureau office?
Mr.Miller. I don't know, because I didn't see him and I didn't hear him.
Mr.Griffin. Well, then, who told you? Who did you hear the request from to go down?
Mr.Miller. Policewoman McLine, I believe it was, the best I remember, said something about all men have to go to the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at that point, did you walk down to the basement?
Mr.Miller. I walked down the hall and caught the elevator to the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go down with anybody?
Mr.Miller. The best I recall, the elevator was full. As far as remembering any one particular person that was on the elevator, I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. Did you walk out of the juvenile bureau with anybody?
Mr.Miller. I am sure I did, but I don't recall any particular person that I walked out with.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall how many people you walked out with?
Mr.Miller. I sure don't.
Mr.Griffin. When Officer McLine, Policewoman McLine, told you that you were supposed to go to the basement, what did she say?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall her specific words.
Mr.Griffin. Did she tell you why you were supposed to go down?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any idea of why you were to go down?
Mr.Miller. No; I can't say that I actually did.
Mr.Griffin. As you walked down to the basement, did you look into the homicide bureau?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall looking in there; no, sir.
Mr.Griffin. When you got down to the basement, where did you go?
Mr.Miller. The best I recall, I was standing outside of the windows there in the hallway.
Mr.Griffin. Well, when you got off the elevator, what did you do?
Mr.Miller. Walked over to this hallway where the windows and telephones there are in the basement outside of the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. Did you meet anybody down there when you got off of the elevators before you got to that window, did you meet anybody down there?
Mr.Miller. No particular person that I recall, although there were several people there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you receive any instructions from anybody before you went to this particular station that you mentioned?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. How did you know to walk over there?
Mr.Miller. I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you happen to walk there?
Mr.Miller. There was no particular reason.
Mr.Griffin. About how long was this before Lee Harvey Oswald came down?
Mr.Miller. I don't recall how long. It would be hard to estimate it. It could have been 10 minutes or it could have been longer.
Mr.Griffin. I have got another witness out here, Mr. Ward, and I think maybe it might be well to take a break here a second. I want to talk to this man.
(Discussion off of the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Miller and I have been talking here for a few minutes off of the record about some of the events prior to his going down into the basement.
Now, as I understand it, Mr. Miller, shortly after you got into the office on Sunday morning, you went some place for some coffee?
Mr.Miller. I went to the Deluxe Diner on Commerce Street and had breakfast.
Mr.Griffin. Now, who did you go over there with?
Mr.Miller. Officer Harrison.
Mr.Griffin. And what time of the morning was that?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember a definite time, but it was probably somewhere shortly after 8 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. And did anybody else go over there with you besides Harrison?
Mr.Miller. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. This a place that you regularly go?
Mr.Miller. No; not regularly. Occasionally, we go over for a sandwich or we phone for sandwiches and take them up to the office.
Mr.Griffin. Do you normally take a coffee break right after you go to work?
Mr.Miller. Usually after we get our assignments in the morning, we take a coffee break and go to work.
Mr.Griffin. Did you receive assignments this morning when you came in?
Mr.Miller. I don't believe the deskman finished making assignments when we went over to coffee.
Mr.Griffin. Was this the regular deskman?
Mr.Miller. Yes. Usually we have a regular deskman, except his day off, and on his days off, everyone takes a turn rotating working at the desk.
Mr.Griffin. Excuse me. What was the name of the deskman that day?
Mr.Miller. The best I remember, Detective Goolsby was on the desk that day.
Mr.Griffin. Now, where was this located on Commerce Street, this diner?
Mr.Miller. It is in the 2000 block, I believe it is, almost directly across the street from the Statler Hotel.
Mr.Griffin. And how many blocks would that be west of the police department?
Mr.Miller. That would be in the first block.
Mr.Griffin. When you went in there that morning, were you in uniform?
Mr.Miller. No. I never wear a uniform.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know any of the people who worked at that diner?
Mr.Miller. Only when I see them. Now, I know a colored boy's over there first name. It is Jimmy, I believe, but I couldn't be definite on that.
Mr.Griffin. Was he in there on that day?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember just exactly who it was on duty. There is usually three or four working over there.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, when you went in there, did they have counters and—did they have a counter and tables and booths?
Mr.Miller. It is just a counter.
Mr.Griffin. And how many people were working behind the counter that day?
Mr.Miller. It would be hard to say. Like I was telling you a while ago, there was usually maybe two, maybe four. It all depends on the amount of business they expect, I suppose.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go in there often enough so that you were familiar with any of the people waiting behind that counter although you might not have known them by name but you would recognize them and they would recognize you?
Mr.Miller. I don't think so. I doubt if I have been in there over a half dozen times at the most.
Mr.Griffin. Did Officer Harrison know any of the people in there?
Mr.Miller. I believe he did; yes.
Mr.Griffin. I know you can't—I don't expect you to be a thousand percent accurate on this, but do you have any idea which of the people in there that he knew?
Mr.Miller. No. I have been over there with Officer Harrison, and he usually speaks to, like this one colored boy, and I believe his name is Jimmy or Tommy or something like that. I couldn't be sure on that, but usually speak to him. And when we call up for sandwiches, Officer Harrison has called up there once or twice to have them make sandwiches and pick them up, and he usually asks for this one particular boy over there.
Mr.Griffin. Who suggested going over there for coffee that morning?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember whether I suggested it or whether Officer Harrison did.
Mr.Griffin. Well, who suggested going out for coffee?
Mr.Miller. Like I say, I don't remember whether I did or whether he did. It would be hard to say.
Mr.Griffin. Did either you or Officer Harrison ask anybody else in the juvenile bureau to go out for coffee with you?
Mr.Miller. We probably did, but I don't remember it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got over there, how long did you stay at the diner?
Mr.Miller. Probably around 30 minutes at the most.
Mr.Griffin. And did you—what did you and Officer Harrison talk about over there?
Mr.Miller. Now, I couldn't say. Couldn't say we talked about any one thing in particular.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk about the investigation of Oswald?
Mr.Miller. We could have or we could have talked about Officer Harrison's rabbit dogs or fishing or numerous things.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk about the movement of Oswald to the county jail?
Mr.Miller. It is possible that we did, but as far as being definite on it; I couldn't be.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you talk with anybody else over there?
Mr.Miller. No one that I recall; no.
Mr.Griffin. Did you—did either of you receive a telephone call over there?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Who received the telephone call?
Mr.Miller. The best I remember, when the person that works there at the diner answered the phone, he said, "Phoned for one of you," Officer Harrison answered it and came back to the counter and said we were to come back to the office as soon as we finished eating and were to remain there until further notice.
Mr.Griffin. Did he tell you who made the telephone call?
Mr.Miller. No, sir; he never did, and I never did ask him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether it was somebody from the police department that made that call?
Mr.Miller. I presumed it was, but like I say, I never did ask Officer Harrison who it was, and that would be the only ones that would be likely to order us to return to the office and stay there until further notice.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got back to the office, did you have some idea of why you were supposed to remain back there until further notice?
Mr.Miller. No; I couldn't say that I did.
Mr.Griffin. Did Officer Harrison talk to you at all that day about Jack Ruby?
Mr.Miller. You mean priorto——
Mr.Griffin. Prior to the time.
Mr.Miller. No; I don't think so. I couldn't be definite on that, either, but I am sure he didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald that Officer Harrison knew Jack Ruby?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you known Officer Harrison?
Mr.Miller. I have probably seen him around the police department ever since I have been here. As far as actually knowing the man, I didn't up until the time I went to work up in the juvenile bureau in October.
Mr.Griffin. And did you ever, prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald, had you ever gone any place socially with Harrison?
Mr.Miller. No. The best I remember, when I first came to work down here, Officer Harrison was riding a motorcycle and I worked in radio patrol, and the only time you can probably see each other would be passing, maybe down in the locker room, something like that, and then he did work out at the pistol range for a while, and when I would go to the pistol range, I would see him out there, but as far as talking to him or going any place with him, no.
Mr.Griffin. Were you ever engaged in any business enterprises with him?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know him any way other than in the capacity as a fellow police officer?
Mr.Miller. That is the only way.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did anything else happen before you went down into the basement on Sunday morning that you can remember?
Mr.Miller. I can remember those 2 children that were brought in and working—I remember working on the papers pertaining to them and I remember asking Policewoman McLine, after we had been told to go to the basement, if she would finish the papers for me.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember anything else that happened or anything else that was said?
Mr.Miller. That is prior to going to the basement?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Miller. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk with Officer Harrison?
Mr.Miller. I am sure I did. In fact, after this was all over up there, I rode out to Love Field with Officer Harrison, so I am sure I did talk to him.
Mr.Griffin. And did you talk to him about what had happened there in the basement?
Mr.Miller. I am sure we did; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ask him whether he saw Ruby at any time before Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr.Miller. No; I don't believe I did.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to him about how Ruby got down into the basement?
Mr.Miller. I am sure we discussed it; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What do you remember about that?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember anything definite, but I believe that more than likely everybody up there was wondering how he got down in there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, immediately after Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do?
Mr.Miller. The best I remember, at the time that this happened, I was walking or trying to walk down towards the corridor for cars to go through in behind of the officers and Oswald when they came out.
Mr.Griffin. I want to know what you did after Ruby was shot.
Mr.Miller. After Ruby was shot?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; or Oswald was shot.
Mr.Miller. The best I remember, someone, seemed like, hit Ruby from behind and pushed him forward. Like I said, I was trying to move that way when this happened, so I grabbed a hold of Ruby and helped take him into the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you—were you with Ruby in the jail office when there were a lot of officers around him?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did Ruby put up any sort of a struggle there in the jail office?
Mr.Miller. No; none that I remember.
Mr.Griffin. Were you—did you have physical hold of Ruby in the jail office?
Mr.Miller. When we got into the jail office; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear Ruby say anything?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What did you hear him say?
Mr.Miller. As to definite words, I could give you what he said as best I remember it, but it may not be his exact words. It could be that he put some more words in.
Mr.Griffin. Okay.
Mr.Miller. The best I remember, he said something about—well, first off, somebody asked, "Who is he?" And he said, "Oh, hell! You guys know me. I am Jack Ruby." And the best I remember, he said something about, "I hope the son of a bitch dies," and something about, "It will save you guys a lot of trouble," or, "It will save everybody a lot of trouble," something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember who it was that said, "Who is it?"
Mr.Miller. No; I sure don't.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember anything else that was said while Ruby was there in the jail office?
Mr.Miller. No; because right after that he was moved over to the jail elevator and was being taken upstairs, and I went out in the basement, the garage part of the basement, again.
Mr.Griffin. Now, was Ruby searched in the jail office while you were there?
Mr.Miller. A quick search, yes.
Mr.Griffin. A pat-down?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Were his pockets emptied?
Mr.Miller. Not that I remember; no.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs?
Mr.Miller. I couldn't be definite on that, because the best I remember it, about the time he was being taken over to the elevator or shortly after, the ambulance came in and picked Oswald up, and I went back out into the basement to help try to keep this crowd of reporters or photographers and what-not out of the way so that they could get the ambulance in and Oswald loaded into it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long did you remain out there in the basement area assisting with the photographers?
Mr.Miller. I would say maybe 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you there when Officer Dean was interviewed on television?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember Officer Dean being interviewed; no. After the ambulance got out, I went up to the ramp on the Commerce Street side. There were several people up there who claimed to be reporters and photographers and what-not trying to get down into the basement and trying to force their way in, and I went up to assist with that problem.
Mr.Griffin. During this period from the time that Ruby was taken upstairs and all of the time you were down there in the basement, did you talk with anybody about how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr.Miller. It is possible that I did, but I don't—like I say, I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any rumors that you heard at that time about how he got in?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were there any rumors circulated at that time as to how he got in?
Mr.Miller. There was one that I remember, that he might have been—came in helping a crew with a television camera that came from the basement proper there out into the garage part.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear that rumor while you were down in the basement?
Mr.Miller. I believe I did, but I couldn't be definite about it.
Mr.Griffin. Did Officer Harrison stay down there in the basement with you?
Mr.Miller. No; I don't believe he did. Now, he could have, but I don't think so.
Mr.Griffin. How about Officer McMillon?
Mr.Miller. I didn't—I don't remember seeing Officer McMillon in the basement.
Mr.Griffin. How about Officer Lowery?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do after you finished down there in the basement?
Mr.Miller. Well, after things quieted down up there at the Commerce Street side, I went back up to the juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do up there in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Miller. I couldn't be definite about it. I probably worked on some reports, but as todefinite——
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to anybody up there about how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr.Miller. I am sure I did, but as far as remembering any particular person that I talked to or how it was discussed, I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. Who was up there in the juvenile bureau when you got back?
Mr.Miller. Policewoman McLine is the only one that I could say that was definitely there.
Mr.Griffin. Where was Officer Harrison at that time?
Mr.Miller. I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. How about Lowery?
Mr.Miller. I don't know where they were.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when was the first time that you saw Officer Harrison after the shooting?
Mr.Miller. It was later, but as to giving you a definite time on it from the time that this happened until we came back up to the office, it would be hard to do.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you first see him?
Mr.Miller. Back in the office, I believe, the best I remember.
Mr.Griffin. And what did you do when you saw him?
Mr.Miller. I don't remember any particular thing that we did.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long did you remain up in the office?
Mr.Miller. Well, the biggest part of the day. Captain Jones, I believe it was, came down and told me to remain in the office until further notice again, that I was to remain there until further notice, and then—let's see—someone else came down shortly after that and had me go down to the chief's office. I went down there, and Captain Jones told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and remain until he called for me.
Mr.Griffin. What were you wanted for in the chief's office?
Mr.Miller. No one ever said, and apparently it was a mixup in the orders there, or something of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Did you actually talk with Jones when you got down there to the chief's office?
Mr.Miller. Only that he told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and wait until he notified me, that he had an assignment for me and he was going to notify me what it was later.
Mr.Griffin. All right. How long did you remain back in the juvenile office?
Mr.Miller. I couldn't say definitely. I know later on that afternoon, I believe it was Officer Harrison and Detectives Cutchshaw and Lowery, the best I remember, and myself, were called down to the chief's office and given an assignment, but what time it was, a definite time, I presume it would have been around 4 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. And who gave you the assignment?
Mr.Miller. Chief Stevenson, the best I remember.
Mr.Griffin. And where were you sent to?
Mr.Miller. I was sent to Love Field.
Mr.Griffin. And did the four of you all go out to Love Field?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What were you to do out there at Love Field?
Mr.Miller. We were to check around the American Airlines ticket office and watch proceedings around there, around the ticket counter, out there around the American Airlines ticket counter, the best I remember.
Mr.Griffin. What were you looking for?
Mr.Miller. Well, after we had left the chief's office, we started out to Love Field, and Captain Martin called us back into the basement, and, the best I remember, he told us that Mayor Cabell had been scheduled to go to Washington, or some place, on an airplane, and they had had a call that there had been a bomb placed on the plane or was going to be a bomb placed on it, or something of that nature, and I believe it was because of this that we were sent out to American Airlines, and my understanding is that the mayor was supposed to have left on a Braniff plane and changed it and left on an American Airlines plane later.
Mr.Griffin. What were you looking for around the American Airlines office?
Mr.Miller. Anyone that might have been carrying a gun or a bomb or anything of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have a description of anyone in particular to look for?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you all talk about on the way out there in the car?
Mr.Miller. I am sure we talked about this shooting. Again, I couldn'tbe definite on it. Like I say, I am sure everybody in the department was talking about it.
Mr.Griffin. What did you hear in the car about how Ruby was shot, how Oswald was shot?
Mr.Miller. You mean—well. Officer Harrison and myself were in one car and Detectives Lowery and Cutchshaw in another car.
Mr.Griffin. What did you hear—what did you hear from Harrison as tohow——
Mr.Miller. Again, I couldn't be definite on any part of the conversation. Like I say, I am sure we discussed the thing and talked about it, but as to any definite words, I couldn't be sure.
Mr.Griffin. Well, there are various rumors that have circulated about how Ruby got into the basement, and I am sure you are familiar with all of them.
Mr.Miller. Well,now——
Mr.Griffin. Which of the rumors did you discuss in the automobile that you can remember?
Mr.Miller. Well, the best I remember, the only rumor I had heard up until that time had been the one that Ruby had come in with this camera crew. Again, I can't be definite, but I believe it was on Monday, the following day, that I heard this rumor, whatever it was, that he had enteredoff——
Mr.Griffin. The Main Street ramp?