Mr.Griffin. So, by the time you ran to the TV cameras, you knew that Ruby was the man?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I knew that Ruby was the man. They said he was Jack Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. Now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as it reached Lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from the TV cameras to the channel 5 camera that was stationed behind the railing? Do you think you would have seen him move from there to the position of the camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, let me put it this way: I didn't just watch this camera all the way through, because it done past this point, and the next time I saw it, I remember seeing it when I was looking through the square glass in the door when I was holding it to, and I saw the two men push it up here.
So, I don't know whether I was looking at the camera at the time I was down here, but I didn't see anyone go around to the camera.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that the TV camera came through the door, the double doors, you were looking through another glass?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; now at the time it came through the door, this door was being opened from the inside.
Mr.Griffin. This single door that entered into the jail office opened inward toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; they came through the swinging door. I was standing in the doorway and I held this door open.
Mr.Griffin. You held open the swinging doors for them?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right; when they came through.
Mr.Griffin. You pulled it back toward yourself?
Mr.Cutchshaw. They were already going past, and I grabbed ahold.
Mr.Griffin. So, the swinging doors were between you, your face and them?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I was standing at the edge of this swinging door holding it back for them.
Mr.Griffin. So, you were behind the swinging doors when you were holding the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. And there was nothing on part of that door which was between you and them?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. How far away would you say you were from those men at that point?
Mr.Cutchshaw. About 3 feet. Maybe 2, or I could have reached out and put my hand on one of them.
Mr.Griffin. Could you see the faces of those men?
Mr.Cutchshaw. The one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, when he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on through.
Mr.Griffin. When you ultimately met over there, you confronted those men afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man that turned up and looked at you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is there any question in your mind about that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I remember his nose real good.
Mr.Griffin. Now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors swing back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I just turned loose of it. There was another officer that closed right in behind them.
Mr.Griffin. There were other officers that closed in behind the TV cameramen?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where did those officers go?
Mr.Cutchshaw. They just stood there. There were some standing in front of the door at the time.
Mr.Griffin. But you didn't follow them through the door?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No. They were already stationed there, and then when they started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers just moved aside.
Mr.Griffin. As that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then looked back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if other people were coming down, or whether you might have looked in toward the jail office, or whether you continued to watch them go on?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any activity back here in that hallway immediately after you let go of that swinging door?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, just a little, maybe a minute or two.
Mr.Griffin. Later?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But not immediately thereafter? Do you have any recollection of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, right after, right after this, the doors came to here, a man stepped away from the wall over there, the one I told you previously where one came into the hallway.
Mr.Griffin. A newspaperman? A newspaper person?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Stepped away from this area where you have the "N" marked?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he walk to?
Mr.Cutchshaw. He walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for somebody to come out.
Mr.Griffin. And your attention was attracted to him?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you actually see that man move away?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes. Who moved away from right here and stepped about half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Have you watched the movies of all this?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I just seen it one time.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Are you able to state whether what you are telling us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with anything you may have seen in the movies?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Because I remember when he stepped out, I made him get back, and I told him to get back up against the wall.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether you were looking in his direction when he did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and then you had to look at him?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think I was looking in the hallway in this area here when he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps.
Mr.Griffin. You say in this area here. You mean you were looking in the direction of Lowery?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes, in here.
Mr.Griffin. She can't write that. I am going to have to explain for the record.
Were you looking in the direction of Lowery, or in the direction of the railing?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, in the direction of the TV camera which was being pushed out at this time.
Mr.Griffin. That man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody in, and you pushed him back?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I told him to get back up against the wall.
Mr.Griffin. At that point do you believe that if somebody had walked out from the channel 5 camera that was already in place behind the railing, are you able to state whether or not you would have seen him get in position and help push that other camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, that is kind of hard to say, because when I looked out here and he stepped out there, and I told him to get back, I don't know whether I would notice anybody at that camera, because my attention at this time was at the man that stepped away from the hallway.
Mr.Griffin. However, whatever struck your attention to the general placement of the people in front of those TV cameras, do you recall whether there were people in front of the TV cameras at any time before you saw this other TV camera come out of the hallway?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Whether they were exactly in front of the TV cameras, I don't know, but I know there was lots of people along this north wall and in the driveway.
Mr.Griffin. You are not indicating anything that is directly in front of the TV camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, shortly after this camera came through, someone hollered, "Here they come," or else I think I forget, or "They are on their way down"—we have lights on the basement showing where the elevator is coming down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the cameras—to get out from in front of the cameras—but as far as me telling how many people were in front of the cameras, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Had you ever talked to Lowery about whether he saw some man come from the channel 5 stationary camera and help push the moving camera into that space?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Now, Lowery and I were talking when Lieutenant Wallace told us—he said, if I remember right, Wallace, he says, "I believe I think I found out where you got the third man." And we asked him where, and he said he found out from the crew that a man came from the other channel 5 camera that was already in the basement and helped them down this short incline, because the camera was rocking.
And I said, "I don't remember anybody, but I do remember seeing three men on the camera." And, Lowery said the same thing, that he did remember seeing the three men. But I don't remember anybody coming from here to the camera.
Mr.Griffin. Let's go ahead now, sir. When you were up there filling out your report in the homicide office—when you talked with these men that you finally detained after the shooting, the two men that you detained, did you describe to them the third man that was with them?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. When you asked them where is the third man and he said there wasn't, what did they say?
Mr.Cutchshaw. They just told me that there wasn't any, that if there was a third man there, they didn't know about it.
Mr.Griffin. Was anybody else standing with you at the time they said that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe Officer Lowery was there at that time. But the first thing, I went right out there and got a hold of both of them and asked them, "Where is the other man that came out with them." And he said, "There wasn't any other man." And I said, "I know there were three men with you when you came out." And he said, "If there was one between us, they don't know nothing about it." And I don't remember whether Officer Lowery was there, but I don't think he was there, but we did question them again, and I still think there was a third man.
Mr.Griffin. How about Officer Swain, did he make that denial to Swain?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't really know, because that is when I left and had to go up to the first floor. Lowery started getting their names and they talked to Lieutenant Swain and told them what it was, and he said, "Go ahead and get their names and ask where they are going to be."
Mr.Griffin. Who was it that came up to you and told you that he had found out, had an explanation for the third man.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Lieutenant Wallace.
Mr.Griffin. How long was that after Sunday, November 24?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down there. It was quite some time. The exact amount of days, I don't know, but it was quite some time after that he explained it to us.
Mr.Griffin. When you got up to the homicide office, did Lowery fill out a report?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did Harrison fill out a report while you were out there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think he did.
Mr.Griffin. Did you all talk about this when you were up there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; I believe we did.
Mr.Griffin. I take it that you were all—as a matter of fact, this was probably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you imagine?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. You think anybody could have been in that office without knowing what you guys had seen?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think so, because we don't tell everybody up there in theoffice. Of course, at the time we wrote out a report, I think there was me, Lowery, and I believe Harrison did come back and start writing out his, and I think Lieutenant Wallace, and he said put down what you saw and what you know only, and that is the way I wrote out my report.
Mr.Griffin. You mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so anybody other than you and Lowery who might have been there could have heard it and might have told it to somebody else?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Possibly; yes. But we didn't talk a whole lot while we were writing the report. We just sat down and wrote it out.
Mr.Griffin. How about after you wrote the report?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes. We went back to our office and shot the bull and gabbed about it.
Mr.Griffin. And speculated about it?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Did other people come in there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How about other members of the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was Officer Goolsby there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. In the office.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was Martin there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; he was out there quite a bit.
Mr.Griffin. Was Miller there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Can you think of anybody else who was in that office after you had written out your report and were talking about this?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, let's see. There was a reporter up there. You mean so far as officers is concerned, or just anybody?
Mr.Griffin. Give me just the officers first.
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe June McLine, and then I believe that covered all the officers and myself and Harrison and Miller, and Goolsby, and McLine, and then there were other officers, I know, but I don't know who all they were. I don't remember. And they had that one little reporter from up north somewhere.
Mr.Griffin. One of those Yankee reporters?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Like Cleveland, Ohio, maybe?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't know where he was from, but I didn't like him very much. Then there was a French reporter.
Mr.Griffin. A French reporter was up there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Had you seen that French reporter when you were down in the basement?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think so. I'm not going to swear, because there were so darn many of them.
Mr.Griffin. Had you seen that French reporter there before this?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; because he and some other reporters from up North, they kind of made our office their office, you might say. That was their base of operation.
Mr.Griffin. What did that French reporter tell you? Did he see that TV camera come through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I didn't talk to him about it or ask him.
Mr.Griffin. Did any of the people who were up there in the office indicate they had also seen the TV camera come through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think Goolsby said he saw the camera come through but he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything.
Mr.Griffin. Now, off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Did you view the TV film with these men coming through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. From your recollection of that TV film, could you see the third man on the camera pushing it through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; the only two I could see was just the two that I gave a description. It was one on the right that had, I think, the greenish-type shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat.
Mr.Griffin. Try to remember that TV film. Did that TV film which you saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did it show the man looking up at you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember whether it did or not.
Mr.Griffin. Is the camera shot taken from such a position that if there had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up on the TV picture?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on the door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, I didn't see any other man. If he had been there, he would be directly behind the stand.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall how far that TV picture of the men coming out of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the swinging doors? Out past Lowery? Does it show Lowery up on the TV?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember whether it does or not, because at the time I saw the film, I was just looking at the camera to see whether I could see anybody behind it or not. The way the picture was on the film, it shows the camera coming out, and it was passing out of range of the TV camera that was taking the pictures at the time.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how soon after Oswald was shot did you view those TV films?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. Was it before or after Lieutenant Wallace reported to you that he could solve the problem of the third man?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe it was after.
Mr.Griffin. You saw the film after you talked to Wallace?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall in looking at those TV films whether you show up in the TV film?
Mr.Cutchshaw. On one of the films I do, but whether it was on the TV or one of the camera pictures, I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. Now, on the films that you watched, do you recall whether those films show you looking at the men?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Like I say, I don't even remember seeing them. You know, one showed me, but I think I was looking almost straight out at an angle from the door where I was standing.
Mr.Griffin. In any other films which you have seen, is there depicted the episode where the newsmen moved out from the position that you have marked with an "N" on the north wall of the entranceway to between the jail office and the ramp? Does it show that man coming out and your motioning him back as you have described?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. I am asking you these questions because I am trying to get you to refresh your recollection even more.
Now, Detective Cutchshaw, we all know that shortly after Ruby shot Oswald, a certain amount of heat was focused on Blackie Harrison. You are aware of that, aren't you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I want you to tell me honestly—I think you have tried to be strictly forthright to me in describing this camera.
Do you think that your concern about Harrison in any way has affected what you remembered about this event?
Mr.Cutchshaw. None whatsoever.
Mr.Griffin. Didn't Harrison indicate shortly after this event that he was worried about this, because Ruby had come right past him?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember whether he talked about it; he just said that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, and he described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about it, I don't remember that. As far as any reflection onhimself——
Mr.Griffin. I was not trying to talk particularly about whether Blackie saw Jack there a few minutes ago. Honestly, I don't care to know if that is true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. But it is very important for us to find out what happened, because if we don't know what happened, we have to speculate and wonder whether there was somebody else involved here.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, let me tell you: I came down here. A lot of people say I need a lawyer, but I don't want one because I came down to tell you the truth and just the way I saw it. I told you what I saw. Of course, some of my time elements are a little bit this way, but I said what I saw, and the only thing I did tellyou——
Mr.Griffin. I want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what you feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, is in this, and I don't expect you to tell me that Blackie thought that he saw the man or anybody else, but I want to know if you feel that what you have told me today in such a determined and what appeared to me forthright fashion, is based, is affected in any way because of the concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, about Harrison and Lowery and Miller and anybody else in the bureau who was down there, and in particular to have seen Ruby if he came in?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe that if Blackie Harrison had seen Ruby come in, he would have put him out.
Mr.Griffin. Now, to what extent, I want to know, do you think that this concern of your affects your story, honestly?
I could tell this story and honestly believe everything I am telling, but yet we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected.
How much are you being affected by that concern of Harrison?
Mr.Cutchshaw. None of my story or anything I have told you has been affected in any way for any concern for any one person in the department.
I came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way I saw it. And as far as concern for any one individual, I don't have any.
Now, Blackie is a friend of mine, and I have known him for a long time. I have no concern for him, because I don't think he did anything wrong. And I think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out.
Mr.Griffin. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did the wrong thing.
Mr.Griffin. And you think he would have been disciplined for that, too, don't you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he would be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out.
Mr.Griffin. Do you think that if Blackie knew that he wouldn't be disciplined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he wouldn't be disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the public or even anybody in the police department, and it actually turned out Blackie did see this guy, do you think Blackie would tell us about that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe he would. Blackie is an honest man. In fact, the way it is right now, if he had saw the man, I believe he would tell you he had.
Mr.Griffin. You heard the story that Blackie had taken some sort of medicine before he took that lie detector test?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I haven't.
Mr.Griffin. You haven't heard that story?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. You are concerned, I take it, about the department, though you said you are not concerned about any particular man in the department, but you are concerned about the department?
Mr.Cutchshaw. As far as doing anything wrong?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Well, youact——
Mr.Cutchshaw. The way you are talking is that I am concerned that I think we have done something wrong. I don't think there is one wrongdoing, as far as the officers are concerned and what happened down there. I didn't think like that.
Departmental wise or individualwise, there are things pro and con of what should have happened and what shouldn't have happened.
One way of looking, there shouldn't have been any news media, and maybe they shouldn't have been spread out that way, but we would have caught the dickens that way.
And, as I heard, Chief Curry had the okay from a little higher up to go ahead and have the news media, and it didn't turn out too good.
But as far as wrongdoings, there is not one wrong thing that happened as far as our department is concerned.
Mr.Griffin. How about Lowery? Are you much of a friend with Lowery?
Mr.Cutchshaw. We ride to work together and run around a bit together.
Mr.Griffin. How friendly are you with Harrison?
Mr.Cutchshaw. We are good friends, but as far as running around, he lives way over in Pleasant Grove, and I live in Grand Prairie. It is way across town, so we don't get around together.
Mr.Griffin. Lowery had seen Ruby. Did Lowery know Ruby?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Did he recognize Ruby before?
Mr.Griffin. He had seen Ruby on a number of occasions, actually, didn't he before?
Mr.Cutchshaw. You mean before this happened?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. I tell you the truth, I really don't know. I think he said he knew him, or seen him around, but as far as actual standing there, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Captain King in the basement at any time prior to the shooting?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, now, that I don't remember whether I saw him down there prior to the shooting or whether it was after. There was a whole bunch of officers down there, and, man, I do remember a few immediately right there, and someone that came out the door, because I was right there and watched them as they came out.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, if you and Captain King had been standing together and you both saw Ruby and you both knew Ruby, what would you do?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, now, you mean if we saw him come into the basement, or if we saw him standing there?
Mr.Griffin. Saw him standing down there and you were both standing there together?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, that is something that is pretty hard to say, honestly, because the basement is supposed to be secured when we went down there.
In other words, everybody that wasn't supposed to be there, was supposed to be out, and they had officers checking them coming in, and me not knowing Ruby, I probably wouldn't have known him if I had been shown him on the street.
Mr.Griffin. If you knew Ruby and you both were standing there, if you knew him and you and Captain King were standing there, and you knew Captain King was looking at himtoo——
Mr.Cutchshaw. I would have tried to find out what he was doing, knowing he wasn't a newsman or couldn't have a news pass.
Mr.Griffin. Would you have deferred to Captain King or any other superior officer? Would you let him take the initiative on it?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I would have asked him myself if I had seen him, because that is what we were down there for.
Mr.Griffin. What I am trying to get at, and the only reason I use Captain King—I could have used Chief Batchelor or anybody like that, but my point is, that if a junior officer like you and a senior officer were standing together,is there any feeling that you would defer to the senior officer to take the initiative in throwing some guy out?
Mr.Cutchshaw. If he were in charge of me or in charge of security and if I saw Jack Ruby there and he didn't have a pass on and I knew him and knew that he was not a news representative, then if I confronted him and he said, "Chief Batchelor said it was okay," then I would have asked the chief if it was all right.
Otherwise, I wouldn't say the chief had anything to do with it and I would put him out.
Mr.Griffin. So, if you had seen him first, you would have gone directly to him and then turned to your superior officer and said what shall I do about this guy?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I would have went directly to him.
Mr.Griffin. You would have gone directly to him. Do you think that is true of any other officer or do you think some of them would have acted different?
Mr.Cutchshaw. That is hard to say, not knowing every officer's traits. Some operate one way and some operate another.
Mr.Griffin. I want you to examine Cutchshaw Exhibits Nos. 5042, 5043, 5044, 5045, and 5046, and if there are no further additions or corrections to make to those in addition to all this we have been talking about, then I would like you to sign each one of these and date them.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Where do you want me to sign?
Mr.Griffin. Sign it in a conspicuous place where I have placed the mark on the paper. Sign your name and date it. Regular signature or full name.
The testimony of Napoleon J. Daniels was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. My name is Leon Hubert, Mr. Daniels. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Daniels.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and, of course, about the entry of Jack Ruby into the basement of the police department.
Now, Mr. Daniels, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a written request sent to you by mail.
Mr.Daniels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin.
Mr.Daniels. Correct.
Mr.Hubert. General Counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Daniels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; I received it Saturday, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. Last Saturday?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Let the record show that this is Thursday.
Mr.Daniels. It has been 3 days.
Mr.Hubert. Will you raise your right hand, stand, and take the oath, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Daniels. I do.
Mr.Hubert. State your full name?
Mr.Daniels. Napoleon J. Daniels.
Mr.Hubert. Your age?
Mr.Daniels. Thirty-two.
Mr.Hubert. And your residence?
Mr.Daniels. 2229 Sutter [spelling] S-u-t-t-e-r.
Mr.Hubert. What is your occupation, Mr. Daniels?
Mr.Daniels. Real estate broker.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr.Daniels. About 3 years.
Mr.Hubert. I think you own your own company?
Mr.Daniels. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. You were at one time connected with the police department, were you not?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; about 7 years.
Mr.Hubert. About 7 years?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When did you leave the police department?
Mr.Daniels. I left there in November 1962.
Mr.Hubert. What were the circumstances under which you left?
Mr.Daniels. Let me see just how I can put this—well, I resigned, of course, I was asked to resign because of some conflicts I had with a tenant living in one of my apartments.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, you rented out some property to a tenant and you had some difficulty with the tenant?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And on account of that difficulty they asked you to resign from the police department?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You did resign?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And have you continued in the business under the name N. J. Daniels Real Estate Co.?
Mr.Daniels. That's right, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Is that a corporation?
Mr.Daniels. No; just a company.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I know you have already made a statement to the FBI, as a matter of fact, I think you have made two statements, one to the State police—I would now just like for you to tell us what you know of entry of Jack Ruby into the basement?
Mr.Daniels. Well, actually, I don't feel like I really know anything, but I saw a guy go in the basement, but I don't think it was Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. Let's start off with that morning, of course, you knew that the President had been killed?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And as I understand, you were riding in your own car over towards the place where he was killed?
Mr.Daniels. Yes, I was going out Main Street. I was going—let's see, that was Sunday morning and I was going down Main Street to look at the spot where the President had been assassinated and as I drove by the city hall, I noticed a bunch of people standing around and noticed this officer standing in the entrance to the basement.
Mr.Hubert. On Main Street?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; on Main Street, and so I made the block and turned around and came back and parked.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you park?
Mr.Daniels. Pardon?
Mr.Hubert. Where did you park?
Mr.Daniels. On Main there, right down from the city hall there, I guess about a half a block down.
Mr.Hubert. On the other side of the street?
Mr.Daniels. On the same side of the city hall, you see, I went around and came back.
Mr.Hubert. You went around what street?
Mr.Daniels. Now, that first street down, I guess that's—I was going down Main and turned, I believe the first block.
Mr.Hubert. Would that have been Pearl?
Mr.Daniels. No; you see, I was going west on Main and the first street I could turn—I think the first street is a one way going left, but I turned and came back the other way, so it must have been Ervay where I turned and went up to Pacific and then come back up to Harwood and then came down Harwood to Main and made a left on Main and parked up in a vacant space on the other side of the city hall—on the east side of the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. I thought you had parked at a parking lot near the Western Union office?
Mr.Daniels. No; it wasn't a parking lot. I was thinking I parked on the street.
Mr.Hubert. You parked on the street?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was it near the Western Union office?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; right down from the city hall. In other words, it was in between there and the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. But you were parked on Main Street?
Mr.Daniels. On the south side of Main.
Mr.Hubert. Not in a parking lot?
Mr.Daniels. No; I wasn't at a parking lot, no, I think I parked on the street, I'm sure.
Mr.Hubert. And you parked on the same side of the street as the city hall and as the police department is and as the Western Union office is?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you parked at a spot between the Western Union office and the Main Street entrance of the city hall?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Or the police department?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You are familiar with that building, because you worked there for a long time?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say you were about half way between the Western Union and the Main ramp, or just what distance between those two?
Mr.Daniels. Oh, let me see, let me get it in my mind—I would say I was a little nearer the Western Union Building than I was to the entrance of the basement of the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. Are you familiar with that alley that goes from Main Street back in towards Commerce and makes an "L" and comes out on Pearl Street?
Mr.Daniels. I think I was just on the east side of that.
Mr.Hubert. When you say "east," it doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr.Daniels. Near Pearl.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you were on the Western Union side of the alley?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. And your car was facing towards the Western Union?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, about what time was it when you got there?
Mr.Daniels. Near 11 o'clock—I wasn't paying much attention to the time, it must have been near 11 o'clock or a little after.
Mr.Hubert. How do you fix that?
Mr.Daniels. Well, I'm trying to fix it at about the time Oswald was shot. Now, I was there about 20 or 25 or 30 minutes before it happened.
Mr.Hubert. When you parked your car, did you sit in your car any length of time at all?
Mr.Daniels. No; I got out and walked back up there.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you immediately got out and walked back up to the Main door—the Main door entrance?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I'm going to show you a drawing, which among other things includes the entrance to the basement, and I am marking it for the purpose of identification as follows:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5324, Deposition of N. J. Daniels," and I am marking it with my name.
I would like you to study this, and I point out to you that this is Main Street, here is the Western Union office, and here is Pearl.
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Over in that direction would be Harwood, Commerce is over here.
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. This is the Main Street entrance?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. The sidewalk.
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And I think you are familiar with the fact that there is a stone fence about 2 feet high that runs from the entrance of Main Street toward the street some distance.
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, as I understand it, you were parked on Main Street itself?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Facing towards the Western Union Building?
Mr.Daniels. This side of the street.
Mr.Hubert. On the same side of the street as the Western Union Building?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that you reached there at approximately 11 o'clock?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; at approximately 11 o'clock.
Mr.Hubert. You immediately got out of your car and you walked toward the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When you got down there, did you go past the ramp, or did you stay on the Western Union side of the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. I think when I first got there, I walked over in front of the little entrance down in there.
Mr.Hubert. So you could look right down the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. So I could look in there, because I was on the sidewalk when I did that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know Officer Vaughn?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. You had known him from the time you were on the police force?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he recognize you?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you went to the middle of the ramp, but still on the sidewalk and looked down the sidewalk?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you stay there very long?
Mr.Daniels. No; I spoke to him and he told me that he was blocking anybody's entrance, in other words, that's what he meant, that he was blocking anybody's entrance into the basement. That's what he was there for.
Mr.Hubert. He was posted at that spot—where was he standing?
Mr.Daniels. He was standing right in the middle of the entrance there.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I'm going to mark on Exhibit 5324 a position which I am going to call "1" and I am putting a circle on it and I'm going to draw a line, and then I'm going to put "First position of Daniels," is that about correct?
Mr.Daniels. Yes, that's about correct.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I'm going to mark a position called "2" and I'm going to draw a line, and I'm going to mark it "position of Vaughn when Daniels was in position number "1", and ask you if that is correct?
Mr.Daniels. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. And as you said, he recognized you and you recognized him?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you looked down?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then what did you do?
Mr.Daniels. I stepped back over to the bannisterand——
Mr.Hubert. You mean back towards the Western Union?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever go on the other side of the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. Towards Harwood?
Mr.Daniels. No—at no time—I never did.
Mr.Hubert. When you say you went towards the bannister, were you on the inside of the bannister, that is to say, between the bannister and the ramp, or on the Western Union side of it?
Mr.Daniels. You mean after I got back to it?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Daniels. Yes; I got—I went back to it and stood on the Western Union side and just propped my foot up on the end of it.
Mr.Hubert. You were then facing toward Harwood Street?
Mr.Daniels. Correct.
Mr.Hubert. More or less?
Mr.Daniels. Correct.
Mr.Hubert. Did you move out of that position at all?
Mr.Daniels. Well, yes; during the time I was there I moved several times, but it was all right around in that area there.
Mr.Hubert. But did you ever go to the Harwood Street side of the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I am going to draw it lightly first so we can get it straight—if I draw an area like so—would it be fair to say that you were at all times that you are going to testify to later, within that area, except when you left?
Mr.Daniels. Now, what is this here—is this the bannister here?
Mr.Hubert. No; this is the measuring line, this doesn't actually show the bannister.
Mr.Daniels. The bannister come right around in here—I was always right in this area right in here.
Mr.Hubert. So, we will draw a circle like that.
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I am drawing a larger circle in which I am putting the number "3", drawing a line out and saying "Area in which Daniels was after he left position '1' and until shooting." Right?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I understand, of course, that you might have moved around in that area, but substantially that's what it was?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. And it was on the Western Union side of the little concrete or marble ramp that comes out?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you are telling me that you never did go on the Harwood Street side thereafter?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. How many people were in the area you were in—this area that we have marked No. 3?
Mr.Daniels. Well, now, at different times there was as high as four or five—some of them would come by and stop and then go on.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Daniels. Let me see—about that.
Mr.Hubert. Even though there were some people on the other side of the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; there was three or four on the other side.
Mr.Hubert. How long before Oswald was shot, and I think you did hear the shot?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long before Oswald was shot did you get to position No. 1?
Mr.Daniels. I would say 20 or 25 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. And then, how long were you in position No. 3 before he was shot, in the area of No. 3?
Mr.Daniels. Well, let me see—almost the same, because I had just came over here and looked and immediately walked back over here—I would say no time.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you came from your car to position 1 and took a quick look and went to the area of No. 3?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there until the shot was fired, and you think it was about 20 minutes later?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember a car coming up the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know Lt. Rio Pierce?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you recognize him driving the car?
Mr.Daniels. I don't remember whether he was driving or not, there were four officers in there and he was the only one I recognized right off.
Mr.Hubert. There were four in there you say?
Mr.Daniels. Two in the front and two in the back.
Mr.Hubert. Who were the others?
Mr.Daniels. I didn't really get a good look at them but I knew him, but I got a better look at him than I did the rest of them.
Mr.Hubert. Did he see you—did he show any signs of recognition to you?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. How long before the shooting did that occur?
Mr.Daniels. Let's see, I would say 3 or 4 minutes. Now, I have been thoroughly confused on this because down at the police department they tell me one thing and it gets my mind all confused.
Mr.Hubert. Well, what we want is not what somebody else told you, but what you, yourself can best remember today.
Mr.Daniels. Here's what struck me—when I saw the car come out, I was thinking—I guess they are fixing to bring Oswald out now, maybe, because they are coming out to set up a guard, and they pulled on out and I remember watching the car until they got to Harwood and Main, and then I stopped looking at it and I didn't pay any attention to where it went or anything, and then I kind of looked back down in there from where I was standing near the ramp there.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when the car came out, what did Vaughn do?
Mr.Daniels. Vaughn walked out to the street to hold up traffic, because they were coming out the wrong way. They don't normally come out that way and he was going out to hold up traffic and let them get through.
Mr.Hubert. Did he get beyond the sidewalk so that he was actually out in the street?
Mr.Daniels. I think he walked out in the street.
Mr.Hubert. How far into the street?
Mr.Daniels. That would be hard to say but I wasn't paying that much attention, but he walked out into the street—he didn't get beyond the center of the street, but he walked out in there.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, he left position No. 2 and went to a position we will call No. 4 by a circle, and I will just write in there "approximate position of Vaughn when Rio Pierce's car drove out," and when I say "approximate," I am understanding you to say that you are not sure how far into the streethe went, you know he did not go beyond the center stripe, but you think hewent——
Mr.Daniels.Almost——
Mr.Hubert. Out over the sidewalk and into the street?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; because there was some cars parked and he had to get beyond them, you see.
Mr.Hubert. Now, while you were watching the car and Vaughn, I think you said you watched the car until it went around the corner. Did you see anybody go down the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. No, no; I didn't.
Mr.Hubert. Would it have been possible for somebody to have gone to your left and down the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. You mean have gotten between me and there?
Mr.Hubert. And the building—yes.
Mr.Daniels. Not without me seeing them—I don't hardly think so.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, they would have to climb over the littlemarble——
Mr.Daniels. Well, I was not exactly against it at that time. When the car came out, I think I stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved out of the way.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you said that at one point you were standing on the Western Union side of that concrete—what do you call it?
Mr.Daniels. I call it a ramp.
Mr.Hubert. Concrete ramp—sticking out in the sidewalk?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you had your foot on it?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; because I was in and out of that position, but when the car came out, I left that and I stepped back out here a little piece fromthe——
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you left the area 3 and went more towards the street?
Mr.Daniels. I went towards the street and kind of back down the sidewalk a little piece.
Mr.Hubert. You went more towards the Main Street curb and back in the direction of the Western Union?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did you see anybody go down the ramp?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. Then, after Vaughn had done this and the car had gone around, what did Vaughn do?
Mr.Daniels. He came back and took his position up again.
Mr.Hubert. So that it is fair to say then that the position we have marked on the map as position 2 was also the position of Vaughn after the Rio Pierce automobile had gone through?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what happened after that?
Mr.Daniels. Let's see, there is something else that I have been thoroughly confused on—I have never been able to picture in my mind just how it happened—the guy that I saw go into the basement—I'm not sure it was before or after the car came out. I'm not sure—I have run that in my mind a thousand times, but I just can't place one before the other.
Mr.Hubert. Well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where was Vaughn?
Mr.Daniels. In position 2.
Mr.Hubert. In position 2, that is to say, squarely in the middle of the ramp?