Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did Vaughn look at him?
Mr.Daniels. I think he did.
Mr.Hubert. Did Vaughn try to stop him?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. He went right on through?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know how long that was before the shot was fired?
Mr.Daniels. 3 or 4 minutes, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. But what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not that was after the Rio Pierce car came out?
Mr.Daniels. I'm not sure—I can't place one before the other—if I had to guess at it, I would say it was before.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you think now that you saw the man go down past Vaughn before the Rio Pierce car came?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Is that correct?
Mr.Daniels. That's what I'm thinking.
Mr.Hubert. That's your best recollection today?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when the Rio Pierce car did drive out and Vaughn left his position at No. 2, didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to watch that position which was left unguarded?
Mr.Daniels. I did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so I could tell him about it.
Mr.Hubert. And nobody did?
Mr.Daniels. No.
Mr.Hubert. And that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not the man you saw go down, went down before or after the Pierce car came out?
Mr.Daniels. Let me see—I still think it was before.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know that now?
Mr.Daniels. No; I can't be positive—I don't know it.
Mr.Hubert. Isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man you had seen somehow when you were on the police force?
Mr.Daniels. Well, yes; and here's what—when the guy walked down in there and Vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression I got was that Vaughn knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, I wondered too why he let him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody else go down in there. He looked like one of the news reporters or something, at least that's what I took him to be after Vaughn let him go on down. I had seen him before and I thought, well, maybe he's one of the news reporters down there at the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you to do this, Mr. Daniels, I have here three documents. The first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the State police, I think, or the city police, in the course of which you executed an affidavit on November 29, 1963.
I'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5325, deposition of N. J. Daniels," and I am signing my name below it. There are two pages. I am marking the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Then there's another document which purports to be a report of an interview with the FBI Agents Neil Quigley and John Dallman, which interview occurred on December 4, 1964. That document has four pages. I am marking in the right hand margin on the first page, the following:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5326, Deposition of N. J. Daniels." I am writing my name below that and marking the second and third and fourth pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and finally, there is another document which is an FBI report of an interview with Bramblett [spelling] B-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and Dallman, taken of you on December 18, 1963, and I am marking that:
"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, this is Exhibit 5327, Deposition of N. J. Daniels."
I am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three pages, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages.
Now, Mr. Daniels, I would like you to read these three documents with this in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and quietly, take all the time you want, I would like you to look at them and be able to comment upon them.
For instance, I am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is wrong about them, and I want to try to reconcile them, and see if we can get at what are really the facts as you recollect the facts today. We are not interested in any positions of mind or concepts that you don't really have, but that other people might have driven you to, with good motive or not, what we want now is forgetting about whatever anybody else told you, what your recollection is right now—today, without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it.
Keep that in mind—forget about suggestions made to you in all good faith by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's just do that—that scene as you saw it, and these words today.
Mr.Daniels. All right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I am going to give you some time to look at it.
Mr.Daniels. [Examining instruments referred to.]
Mr.Hubert. Now, Mr. Daniels, you have had an opportunity to read the exhibits that I have marked Exhibits Nos. 5325, 5326, and 5327. Now, have you any comment to make with respect to the three exhibits and the statements made by you in them?
Mr.Daniels. They said three people was in the car—it seems like I saw four—all of them had on these white supervisor caps, leather top hats that the supervisors wear down there and it just seemed like I saw four.
Mr.Hubert. All right, what you are saying in effect now is that the people who reported in these exhibits that you said you saw three were wrong, or that you were wrong in telling them three, because your present recollection is that there were four?
Mr.Daniels. I think it was four.
Mr.Hubert. Are there any other corrections that you wish to make?
Mr.Daniels. Let's see. I don't remember.
Mr.Hubert. Any others?
Mr.Daniels. I don't remember—corrections.
Mr.Hubert. Well, it is my duty to call your attention to Exhibit 5325, which is the affidavit that you made on November 29.
Mr.Daniels. November 29? What I said?
Mr.Hubert. And in Exhibit 5327, which is the report of an interview by the agents of the FBI on December 18, you seem to quite clearly state that the man you saw walk down the ramp past Vaughn, did so after the car had passed?
Mr.Daniels. Well, I said I think I have changed my mind now—I believe it was after the car had gone out when I saw him.
Mr.Hubert. Let me get it straight—what is your present impression now?
Mr.Daniels. That's it—the way I fix it in my mind—the way I arrive at that conclusion is that when the shot rang out, my first thought was the guy that just walked down in there did that, so timing that way it would have to be after that car came out, because that car had time to go quite a ways, I think.
Mr.Hubert. What you are saying then is that, the statements that are contained in Exhibits 5325 and 5327 you now believe to be correct?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. And the statement you made in your deposition earlier today that you could not be sure whether that man went in before or after was incorrect? I think you even went further, if my memory serves me right, and said that your best recollection was that the man had gone down past Vaughn before the car came out, isn't that what you said earlier in your deposition?
Mr.Daniels. Yes; until I refreshed myself on it and when I read that I got a better picture in my mind.
Mr.Hubert. So that now your testimony is that you think that the man you saw go by—past Vaughn, did so after the car had gone out, that is to say, after Vaughn had left his position at (2), gone out into the street to the approximate position of (4) and come back again to his position at (2)?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. And then it was at that time or shortly thereafter that the man went straight by Vaughn?
Mr.Daniels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But that is your present best recollection?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you believe that the thing that has made you change your mind is that when you read these statements—it refreshes your memory?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Are you quite sure it refreshes your memory or, are you worried about contradicting yourself?
Mr.Daniels. No; I'm not worried about contradicting myself, I'm just trying to be sure and tell the truth.
Mr.Hubert. Right—I want to assure you that it doesn't matter to us whether you contradict yourself or not.
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. There is no suggestion made to you here that if you made a mistake before that any kind of penalty or punishment or prosecution will follow, because that isn't so, unless you made a wilful misstatement, but I'm not going into that now. What I want to know now is what really happened. Now, Mr. Daniels, that's why I asked you before to try to put everything out of your mind.
Mr.Daniels. That's the trouble with this—it has been out of my mind and I am trying to get it back in there.
Mr.Hubert. You feel now, considering all the statements you made originally are the truthful ones?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Are there any other corrections or additions or deletions that you would like to make as to the exhibits that have been identified as exhibits as numbers 5325, 5326, and 5327?
Mr.Daniels. I can't think of any.
Mr.Hubert. You think it can be fairly said that anyone who would read the three exhibits 5325, 5326, and 5327 and who would read the transcript of your deposition at a later time and who would have the advantage of being able to follow your deposition on this chart that has been marked as Daniel's Exhibit 5324, that such a person reading all those documents would have all of the truth, so far as you know it?
Mr.Daniels. Right.
Mr.Hubert. And we would have all that you do know?
Mr.Daniels. That's absolutely right—that's right, I believe so.
Mr.Hubert. All right, is there anything else, have you anything else to say?
Mr.Daniels. No; I can't think of anything else.
Mr.Hubert. All right, thank you very much. I am glad you came by.
Mr.Daniels. All right, thank you.
The testimony of William J. Harrison was taken at 3:45 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. William J. Harrison was accompanied by his counsel, Ted P. MacMaster.
Mr.Griffin. I was looking through here to see if I could get you a copy of our rules. Let me state for the record. Correct me if I get the names wrong. We have here Officer W. J. Harrison of the Dallas Police Department and Mr. MacMaster.
Mr.MacMaster. Ted P. MacMaster [spelling] M-a-c-M-a-s-t-e-r, assistant city attorney of the city of Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. I wanted to provide for you, before we even get into the formal part of it a copy of the rules, and I think this is a complete copy, Mr. MacMaster, and, if you like, let me hand them to you.
Mr.MacMaster. That is fine. Thank you.
Mr.Griffin. And let me state, talk a little bit about this, and then maybe, if you feel that you would like to stop and take a look at it a little longer, I would be happy to do that. I will state for the record that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and this Commission has been set up pursuant to an Executive Order 11130 by President Johnson issued November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to this Executive order and these resolutions, there have been a set of rules and a procedure prescribed by the Commission, and I believe, Mr. MacMaster, that what I have just handed you is a copy, and I believe a complete copy, of the rules, but if you would like for me to check and make sure that is everything, I will check with one of my colleagues.Would——
Mr.MacMaster. Yes; I would appreciate that.
Mr.Griffin. Would you like me to?
Mr.MacMaster. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I will have to take it.
(Recess.)
Mr.Griffin. For the record, I have checked with my colleague, Mr. Leon Hubert, and he confirms my statement to you that that is a complete copy of the rules of the Commission.
Mr.MacMaster. I would like to state for the record, Officer William J. Harrison, a member of the police department of the city of Dallas, Tex., is making a voluntary appearance here today and is here for the purpose of voluntarily assisting, in every way possible, in this investigation.
Mr.Griffin. I certainly appreciate that, and let me take some time here to explain to you what is involved here. This Commission was set up under this resolution and this Executive order, which I have given you a copy of, for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, reporting back to President Johnson upon the facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, we have asked Mr. Harrison to come here today to talk with him in particular about the facts that are attendant to the killing of Oswald. We don't want to preclude any information that you may have that falls anywhere within the scope of the Commission, so if there is anything, why I would like you on your own to bring it up and we want very much to hear it.
Let me go back and explain where we are procedurally. Officer Harrison is appearing here by virtue of a letter, which is sent by the General Counsel of the Commission to Chief Curry, and the General Counsel, under these resolutions, has the right to determine who shall be deposed and also has the authority to authorize individual members of his staff to take individual depositions, and I have been authorized, pursuant to that letter to Mr. Curry, to take Mr. Harrison's deposition. Now, the witness is entitled to 3 days' written notice before he testifies before the Commission, and some of the witnesses have asked for it, others of them haven't.
Mr.MacMaster. You don't have any reason for that?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.MacMaster. He wants to waive that 3-day notice.
Mr.Harrison. Just waive it.
Mr.Griffin. And, also, they have a right to counsel before the Commission. Many of the witnesses have come before the Commission, and Mr. Harrison is here with Mr. MacMaster, who is his attorney. Do you have any questions you want to ask me before I swear the witness in?
Mr.MacMaster. No; not that I know of at this point.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Harrison, do you have any questions that you would like to ask me?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I would like to know if I understand. You have the reports that we made to the FBI?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. And also the ones that we made to our chief?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, we do.
Mr.Harrison. Do we get to read those?
Mr.Griffin. Would you like to see a copy of them?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; I haven't seen them.
Mr.MacMaster. You want them to refresh your memory?
Mr.Griffin. All right. Let me get it out of here. Would you like to take time and go out?
Mr.MacMaster. Do you want to take a little time?
Mr.Griffin. Why don't you look it over? You can step out of the room. Maybe I can find another office for you, too.
(Recess.)
Mr.Griffin. I might ask you again if you have any other questions that I can answer before I swear you in?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know of anything. This is off of the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. You want to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Harrison. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Harrison. William J. Harrison.
Mr.Griffin. When were you born, Mr. Harrison?
Mr.Harrison. August 28, 1924.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you live now?
Mr.Harrison. At 9223 Donnybrook.
Mr.Griffin. Is that in Dallas?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Harrison. Yes, I am.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas department?
Mr.Harrison. Past 16 years.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what particular bureau or subdivision are you attached to at present?
Mr.Harrison. I am a patrolman assigned to the juvenile bureau of the CID.
Mr.Griffin. Were you working in that capacity or were you a member of the department in that capacity on November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am going to ask you some questions generally about events, things have to do with events before the 24th, and I am not going to go into as much detail as the events of the 24th, but I do want to ask you where you were at the time that you heard that the President was shot.
Mr.Harrison. Where I was at the time that I heard that the President was shot?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. I was on duty at the market hall. I was standing at the—I guess it would be the west end of the President's table.
Mr.Griffin. That is the Trade Mart?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Dallas Trade Mart?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir; market.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain there after you heard that the President was shot?
Mr.Harrison. Well, it was approximately an hour.
Mr.Griffin. And then where did you go?
Mr.Harrison. Come back to the city hall.
Mr.Griffin. The Police Department Building or the city hall portion of it?
Mr.Harrison. Well, to the juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. And did you go up to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you do when you got back to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I don't recall. Stayed around the office there until time to go home.
Mr.Griffin. What time would you estimate that you got back to the police department?
Mr.Harrison. It was around 1:30 or 2.
Mr.Griffin. And what time did you go off duty that day?
Mr.Harrison. Four.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you have occasion to go out of the building between the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall. I don't think I ever went out of the building.
Mr.Griffin. Were you working on any particular cases that you recall?
Mr.Harrison. No, no; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, during the period that you were there prior to 4 o'clock, did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the building who you knew was not a police officer or a member of the press or somebody who was up on some sort of official business with the police department, did you recognize anybody that you knew?
Mr.Harrison. No, no.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Jack Ruby there at anytime prior to 4 o'clock Friday afternoon?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know Jack personally?
Mr.Harrison. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to meet Jack?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and he was running the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it.
Mr.Griffin. What bureau were you assigned to at that time?
Mr.Harrison. I was in the traffic bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Is that motorcycle patrol?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; motorcycle patrol.
Mr.Griffin. Was that downtown only?
Mr.Harrison. No. We rode all over the city.
Mr.Griffin. What particular business did you have in there?
Mr.Harrison. Oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get a cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, just regular, routine checks more or less.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you ever see him on a social basis?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a police officer?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Have you in the last 12 years had any part-time jobs while you were with the police department?
Mr.Harrison. Any part-time jobs while I—I didn't understand that.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; while you were a member of the police department, did you have any part-time jobs?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; I have had part-time jobs.
Mr.Griffin. In connection with any of this part-time work, have you ever worked with Jack Ruby?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of part-time jobs have you had?
Mr.Harrison. Around parade of homes, working traffic around these parades of home, and on special occasions, like where they have big traffic problems, and in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, department stores, working in both.
Mr.Griffin. You don't have any special trade like carpenter, bricklayer or anything like that?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you do when you left the police department at 4 o'clock on Friday?
Mr.Harrison. I drove home, went home.
Mr.Griffin. And where were you the remainder of the evening?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I don't recall at all, but I believe I was at my home. I don't think I had left the house.
Mr.Griffin. Is there something that makes you think you might have been some place else?
Mr.Harrison. No. I just don't remember back that—if I went anywhere or not.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what shift did you work on Saturday?
Mr.Harrison. 8 to 4.
Mr.Griffin. And did you report for duty at thejuvenile——
Mr.Harrison. Bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Were you in the building all day on Saturday?
Mr.Harrison. On a Saturday?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where you worked out of the building on Saturday?
Mr.Harrison. No; I don't recall. It was just a normal, routine day, as far as our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and checking those beeves that we had assigned to us.
Mr.Griffin. Prior to the time that you went on duty on Saturday, did you receive any telephone calls or other communications from Jack Ruby or anybody who was an associate of Jack Ruby?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. You left the police department about 4 p.m. on Saturday?
Mr.Harrison. On Saturday?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir. No; I beg your pardon. Yes; it was about 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at the time that you left the police department, had you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald, proposed movement of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. No, no; I hadn't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you do Saturday after you left work?
Mr.Harrison. I went home.
Mr.Griffin. And did you spend Saturday night at home?
Mr.Harrison. Spend Saturday night at home; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What time did you report for work on Sunday?
Mr.Harrison. 8 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now, anytime on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Anywhere?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know any of his friends or associates.
Mr.Griffin. Are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of George Senator?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that the President was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit Ruby's place?
Mr.Harrison. I believe that I went in his place one time within the last year.
Mr.Griffin. When was that?
Mr.Harrison. I don't—I don't recall. A group of us. I say a group of us. Occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place like that, and occasionally we will check to see if there are any down there, and, if I recall, I believe Officer Cutchshaw and myself went down to the Carousel Club one time.
Mr.Griffin. In the course of your duties, did you ever find that Jack Ruby provided any useful information to the police department?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you or any of the officers that you know in the police department attempt ever to obtain information out of Jack Ruby with respect to your duties?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I didn't. I don't know if any of the other officers did or not.
Mr.Griffin. There wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any assistance or information from him?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you arrived for work on Saturday—Sunday, rather—you say you report at 8 o'clock?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is that the normal reporting time in your bureau?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember where you parked your car?
Mr.Harrison. I parked it over by the garage on Young Street, and actually, well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage.
Mr.Griffin. Youngand——
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And what intersection?
Mr.Harrison. Young and Pearl Expressway.
Mr.Griffin. Did you come into the building with any of your fellow officers?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what entrance you came into the building through?
Mr.Harrison. I drove into the basement.
Mr.Griffin. I am talking about the police department building.
Mr.Harrison. I drove into the basement of the city hall there.
Mr.Griffin. Oh, I thought you parked your car there.
Mr.Harrison. I did. I parked my personal car on the parking lot across from the police garage on Young and Pearl.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Harrison. I picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the basement of the city hall, where I parked it.
Mr.Griffin. I see. What car number was it?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall. Don't have any idea.
Mr.Griffin. Is there any sort of record that is maintained on what cars you drive?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day.
Mr.Griffin. And did you fill out a slip on that car?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that is over there?
Mr.Harrison. They are left in the car, they are in the cars.
Mr.Griffin. And are they kept in a locked garage, is that it?
Mr.Harrison. No; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence up to, youknow——
Mr.Griffin. And there is a guard on the fence?
Mr.Harrison. No; there is no guard.
Mr.Griffin. Now, was there any particular reason for taking that car that day?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we always park our personal car and pick up our city car and drive over close to the city hall there.
Mr.Griffin. I see. And it is part of your responsibility, you ordinarily pick up a car?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have a particular car assigned to you?
Mr.Harrison. No, no. We have a pool system.
Mr.Griffin. Did you drive back with anybody to the police department?
Mr.Harrison. No; I was alone that day.
Mr.Griffin. I take it that you parked the car in the garage of the municipal building and walked by the jail office?
Mr.Harrison. To the elevator.
Mr.Griffin. Yes. When you arrived, were there any newspaper people down in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. In the basement?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Harrison. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether there were any TV cameras set up when you arrived that day in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. When you came in, I take it that you came in down the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was there a guard on the Main Street ramp at the time that you came?
Mr.Harrison. Not at that time.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do when you got up to the third floor? Is that right?
Mr.Harrison. I went to the juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go to the locker room first?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. You went right up to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. On the third floor?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when you got in?
Mr.Harrison. No. Goolsby was working the desk and Mrs. McLine was there and Miller and Lowery. I believe Cutchshaw.
Mr.Griffin. Anybody else that you recall?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Was Captain Martin there?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall seeing him when I first come in.
Mr.Griffin. When you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived up there in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. We checked to see what we had assigned to us. They assign the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in our drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any messages or if there has been anything assigned to us to work on.
Mr.Griffin. And did you have anything assigned to you at that time to work on?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what you did after you checked your assignments?
Mr.Harrison. Well, Miller and I went to eat breakfast. I don't know the exact time.
Mr.Griffin. How long would you estimate that was after you arrived?
Mr.Harrison. I don't have any idea. Approximately 20 or 30 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going on in the homicide office or what was going on in connection with Lee Oswald when you came in?
Mr.Harrison. I beg your pardon.
Mr.Griffin. When you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to any of the people in connection with what was happening with Lee Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. Not that I recall. I may have asked if he was still up there. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that—excuse me.
Mr. MacMaster, this is Mr. Hubert of our office. Mr. MacMaster is assistant city attorney. This is Mr. Harrison, Mr. Hubert.
Mr.Harrison. Hello. Glad to see you, sir.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that you arrived in the building, had you heardanything in connection with the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail?
Mr.Harrison. No; I hadn't.
Mr.Griffin. Had you heard anything about whether he was going to be moved at all that day?
Mr.Harrison. Well, the—they were talking, the pressmen were talking about it out in the hall as we come by.
Mr.Griffin. What did you hear the press people say?
Mr.Harrison. They said he would be moved sometime that morning, and I couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk with Officer Miller about this when you got in?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk with any of the officers about this?
Mr.Harrison. When Captain Martin came in, I believe we had gone to get breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau there.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did you have breakfast?
Mr.Harrison. At the Deluxe Diner there at the 1900 block of Commerce.
Mr.Griffin. Whose suggestion was it to go out for breakfast?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know. Mine or Miller's one. I don't remember.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ask anybody else to go with you?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. It was just you and Miller that went to the Deluxe Diner?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anybody at the Deluxe Diner that you knew?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know the people who operate the diner or the waitresses?
Mr.Harrison. No. I know some of them that work over there, but I don't recall who was working that day.
Mr.Griffin. And do you visit there often enough so that they know you?
Mr.Harrison. Some of the employees do.
Mr.Griffin. Now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk with before going? You didn't ask anybody to come with you. Did you tell anybody that you were going out?
Mr.Harrison. We told the deskman, Goolsby.
Mr.Griffin. Goolsby?
Mr.Harrison. We were going over to get a cup of coffee.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Now, how long did you remain at the Deluxe Diner?
Mr.Harrison. I would say around 30 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Did anything happen over there?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk about the movement of Lee Oswald at all?
Mr.Harrison. No. We didn't know anything about it then.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what you talked about over there?
Mr.Harrison. I sure don't.
Mr.Griffin. Speculation about whether they were going to get a story out of him, a confession, or anything like that?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we were through eating and went back over to the city hall there to the bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were over at the Deluxe Diner?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether you talked with any—had any telephone calls when you were there?
Mr.Harrison. I believe I did.
Mr.Griffin. Okay.
Mr.Harrison. I believe I did have a phone call.
Mr.Griffin. All right. What do you remember about the phone call?
Mr.Harrison. I believe it was Goolsby. He called us and told us not to leavethe city hall, that was the captain's order, Captain Martin's order. He told us to come on back to the bureau when we got through eating.
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Harrison. I recall that.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, when you got back to the bureau, did you report back in to Goolsby?
Mr.Harrison. Well, he saw us come in. We didn't have to.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Captain Martin when you got back?
Mr.Harrison. I believe he was there when we got back in.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to anybody when you got back about the proposed movement of Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. No. Of course, it may have been discussed there as to what time it would be. I don't recall who was talking or what was said, but I know we were told to stand by the bureau there by Captain Martin.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when did Martin tell you this?
Mr.Harrison. Well, actually, on this phone call Goolsby made over there, he told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Harrison. When we got back up there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did Martin then tell you the same thing when you got up?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long was it between the time that you got this call from Goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in connection with the movement of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. I would say about 2 hours.
Mr.Griffin. When you came back from the diner, how did you come back into the building?
Mr.Harrison. Came across to Harwood Street and down to the Harwood Street entrance to the city hall.
Mr.Griffin. And when you went out, did you go out that way or did you go out by the Commerce Street entrance?
Mr.Harrison. Went that way.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see anybody around the police building at that time whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a newspaperman?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir; when we came back, there was a man by the name of Johnny Miller, who owns a trailer house sales on West Davis. It is right across from Sivils parking lot there. It is a trailer sales company. He was standing in the door of this television company truck talking, and he turned around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, and I went on in the building.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what he said to you?
Mr.Harrison. He just spoke to me and shook hands with me said he was glad to see me, and that is the extent of it.
Mr.Griffin. Does Miller know Ruby, to your knowledge?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know. I don't know that, whether he knows him or not.
Mr.Griffin. Anything that would lead you to think that he might?
Mr.Harrison. No; I have known Miller just about the same length of time that I have known Ruby, but I don't know whether he even knew Ruby or not.
Mr.Griffin. Is Miller a close, personal friend of yours?
Mr.Harrison. No, no; just an acquaintance. Oh, I have stopped out there at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and had coffee with him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend.
Mr.Griffin. Is this a TV sales and repair shop that he runs?
Mr.Harrison. No; a house trailer.
Mr.Griffin. I am sorry. House trailer. House trailer. Okay. Now, do you remember what you did in those roughly 2 hours between the time you got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to the basement?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir; I don't recall, except sitting up there answering the phone and just checking on beeves that I had had assigned to me.
Mr.Griffin. Were you all keeping your eye out for when Oswald would be moved?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would come and get us.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for moving Oswald, what would be done before Oswald would be moved?
Mr.Harrison. No; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Were you aware that the homicide people were questioning Oswald at that time?
Mr.Harrison. We didn't know they were. We assumed that they were.
Mr.Griffin. Were there reporters running in and out of the office?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Were they talking about the events that were going on?
Mr.Harrison. They were mostly using the phone. They weren't talking to us. They were mostly calling their home office.
Mr.Griffin. They were using the phone in your office?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You were able to hear what they were saying over the telephone?
Mr.Harrison. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. There were three of us in there that morning. All we told them was to leave us three lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves.
Mr.Griffin. What was the next thing you recall in connection with the movement of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. About, I would say, 3 or 4 or 5 minutes to 11. I went down to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as I come back up out of the subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were going across from the elevator to the—to there in front of the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there are two basements, as I understand it, in the Police and Courts Building. One is the basement level that the garage is on and the jail office and the records room?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And then there is a subbasement?
Mr.Harrison. Locker room.
Mr.Griffin. Locker room down below that. Now, how did you get down from the third floor into the subbasement? Does the elevator go all of the way down?
Mr.Harrison. No, no; it stops at the floor where the jail office is.
Mr.Griffin. All right. When you get out of the jail office, where do you have to go?
Mr.Harrison. Well, actually to the south end.
Mr.Griffin. You walk down to the hallway and then you open a door?
Mr.Harrison. No; you go down a stairway.
Mr.Griffin. Go down a stairway?
Mr.Harrison. Into the subbasement.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from Commerce Street down the steps to go to the door that entered into the building and through the hallway that you had walked down? Do you follow me?
Mr.Harrison. No, no; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Let's suppose that you walked from the record room to the subbasement by way of the hallway that leads out towards Commerce Street.
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the building, does it not?
Mr.Harrison. Right.
Mr.Griffin. And when you open that door and go out of the building, there are two other doors, right?
Mr.Harrison. No, no.
Mr.Griffin. Well, isn't there a door on your—on your left as you face Commerce Street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the engine room?
Mr.Harrison. Actually, I have never—I believe there is a door there. It is underneath where the stairway goes up.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway goes up? In other words, as you walk out of the door from the building to leave thebuilding and you step out of there, there is another door right in front of you right under thisstairs——
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Isn't there?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I have never been down that way. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. All right. From the assembly room, in the assembly room, where is this cigar dispensing machine?
Mr.Harrison. They are not in the assembly room.
Mr.Griffin. Not in the assembly room, in the locker room.
Mr.Harrison. In the locker room.
Mr.Griffin. Where is it located?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know how to describe it to you. The machine is about, I guess, 18 foot from the door—from the stairway.
Mr.Griffin. At the far south end?
Mr.Harrison. No; it is kind of west of the stairway.
Mr.Griffin. West of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the room, it is on the side closest to Commerce Street?
Mr.Harrison. No; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers are.
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Harrison. Now, there is a door that separates the locker room from the area where the cold drinks and wherethe——
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. Where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the cigarette machines are, there is a door that separates that.
Mr.Griffin. We are all talking about the same thing here. I am not sure that Mr. MacMaster knows what we are talking about here. Would you draw Main Street or draw Commerce Street up on one end, which is convenient to you, and draw Harwood, and why don't you label them, write "Main," "Commerce," and "Harwood" in the appropriate spots? All right. Where is the doorway that you entered the locker room by, where would that be?
Mr.Harrison. Well, now, this being the stair down.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. There is no door here.
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Harrison. There is a wall approximately in this position and there is a double door here.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. All right. There is a big post here. It has a telephone on it.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. Cigar machine sits right here beside of this post.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. And the Dr. Pepper and coke machines are all up and down this right side.
Mr.Griffin. All right. What is in this area to the south of the doorway?
Mr.Harrison. This?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. Lockers.
Mr.Griffin. Would you draw that in there, write that in there? Write "Locker Room" or something. Did you have a locker in there?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where was your locker located, approximately?
Mr.Harrison. Down here, however it hadn't been used in over 2½ or 3 years.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anybody down here when you went down there to get the cigars?
Mr.Harrison. There was no one down there when I went down there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any occasion to go into the locker room?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you do after you got the cigars?
Mr.Harrison. Went back upstairs.
Mr.Griffin. And did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police officer.
Mr.Harrison. Well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate area. The officers were going across from the elevator to the jail office, the officers out of the juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. So when you came up, you found the officers had left?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. I mean had left the juvenile bureau, right?
Mr.Harrison. Well, they were leaving the elevator coming across.
Mr.Griffin. Had you met them in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. Met them in the basement, yes.
Mr.Griffin. And who did you see there at that time?
Mr.Harrison. Well, there was Miller, Lowery and Cutchshaw, Goolsby, and I believe that was all out of our bureau.
Mr.Griffin. And what did you do when you saw them?
Mr.Harrison. One of them told me to come on.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember which one that was?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall who it was.
Mr.Griffin. And where did you go with them?
Mr.Harrison. We stood in front of the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. And what happened as you waited around there?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we were waiting around to get—find out where they were going to put us.
Mr.Griffin. Did you finally get some instructions from somebody?
Mr.Harrison. I believe it was Captain Jones that come in and told us that—to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told us that he wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and that he wanted nothing but officers over in this corridor here and where the—well, on the west wall, in other words.
Mr.Griffin. Now, let's go off of the record here. I want to find out.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. I am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here Harrison Exhibit 5027, and I am going to ask you, Officer Harrison, if you will just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, "cigar machine."
Mr.Harrison. This is a post here.
Mr.Griffin. A post. A support post. All right. Why don't you mark that post, then? And then mark the area where the—okay. Now, and that is "door." Okay. Now, would you sign that any place where you can get your signature and then date it?