Mr.Griffin. What did you do as you saw them rushing out?
Mr.Croy. They had more help than they needed, so I went on.
Mr.Griffin. Did you continue to listen to your police radio?
Mr.Croy. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened?
Mr.Croy. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio.
Mr.Griffin. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you live?
Mr.Croy. About 3 miles.
Mr.Griffin. How long does it take to drive that distance?
Mr.Croy. About 10 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre from your automobile?
Mr.Croy. No.
Mr.Griffin. How did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by?
Mr.Croy. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them.
Mr.Griffin. You drove right by the front of the theatre?
Mr.Croy. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots.
Mr.Griffin. How many cars could you see there?
Mr.Croy. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre?
Mr.Croy. It didn't go by either one of them.
Mr.Griffin. Which street was that?
Mr.Croy. Zangs.
Mr.Griffin. How many blocks is it from the theatre?
Mr.Croy. One.
Mr.Griffin. What street is the theatre on?
Mr.Croy. Jefferson.
Mr.Griffin. What street does it back on to?
Mr.Croy. In backs into an alley.
Mr.Griffin. Into the alley?
Mr.Croy. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas Theatre is from Zangs?
Mr.Croy. I don't know. I would say not a very long block.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were driving away from town?
Mr.Croy. South.
Mr.Griffin. South on Zangs at Jefferson?
Mr.Croy. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you continue south?
Mr.Croy. I continued south.
Mr.Griffin. How did you proceed to your home from there?
Mr.Croy. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you go to eat?
Mr.Croy. Austin Barbecue.
Mr.Griffin. Where is that located?
Mr.Croy. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois.
Mr.Griffin. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois?
Mr.Croy. From Zangs to Illinois.
Mr.Griffin. Then what direction?
Mr.Croy. West.
Mr.Griffin. Is that left or right?
Mr.Croy. It is a right.
Mr.Griffin. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton?
Mr.Croy. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about the 2100 or 2200 block.
Mr.Griffin. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this place that you had dinner or lunch?
Mr.Croy. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is 3 miles from there, so about 2½ miles.
Mr.Griffin. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house?
Mr.Croy. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois.
Mr.Griffin. Is your house on Illinois?
Mr.Croy. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner?
Mr.Croy. No; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anybody there that you knew?
Mr.Croy. My wife.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there?
Mr.Croy. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What time was your appointment?
Mr.Croy. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her?
Mr.Croy. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was in her car.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other?
Mr.Croy. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes."
Mr.Griffin. You said you would be right there?
Mr.Croy. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's.
Mr.Griffin. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's place on the way home?
Mr.Croy. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time.
Mr.Griffin. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time?
Mr.Croy. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks.
Mr.Griffin. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place that you had dinner?
Mr.Croy. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles.
Mr.Griffin. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to your mother's and dad's house?
Mr.Croy. Straight out north on Hampton.
Mr.Griffin. North on Hampton?
Mr.Croy. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time?
Mr.Croy. I slept there.
Mr.Griffin. Well, was your wife living there also?
Mr.Croy. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were you separated from her?
Mr.Croy. No.
(To reporter: Don't put that in there.)
Mr.Griffin. Were you separated at that time?
Mr.Croy. At that time.
Mr.Griffin. Is there anything else that you think that you could tell as a result of your experiences on the 22d, 23d, or 24th, or any other time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby.
Mr.Croy. You mean Oswald?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Croy. None that I know of. That is as well as I can remember it of what happened.
Mr.Griffin. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Griffin. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was established as a result of an Executive order that was signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to that joint resolution and the Executive order the Commission has prescribed a set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have been authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw.
I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the investigation. The Commission has been directed by the President to inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the assassination of President Kennedy and with the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the President.
We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that the events that have transpired over the last few months will not be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in Government and the national security.
In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by various members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps hundreds is an understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of documents over in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents people who have been talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are particularly central in terms of having information that would be useful.
As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of Oswald, and wealso, however, want any pertinent facts that you may have that would bear upon the entire picture.
You have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was mailed to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission. Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to get a personal letter from the Commission, and 3 days before you testify here. However, the rules do provide that you can waive that particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the first thing I want to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you prefer to waive the 3-day notice?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I will waive that notice.
Mr.Griffin. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the people do have attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that you are not here with an attorney, and I presume by that fact that you have decided that you don't want one. But if you do feel that you would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we willcertainly——
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't feel I need one.
Mr.Griffin. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Would you state your full name?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw.
Mr.Griffin. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw?
Mr.Cutchshaw. May 27, 1923.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you presently live?
Mr.Cutchshaw. 401 Southwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Police officer, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been with the police department?
Mr.Cutchshaw. A little over 9 years.
Mr.Griffin. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Do you hold any particular rank in the department?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Detective.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Cutchshaw. About 2½ years.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you the time before that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think I worked downtown there for about a month.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I had seen him one time before.
Mr.Griffin. Where was that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. At the Carousel on Commerce.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to see him?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I went up in his place one night.
Mr.Griffin. How long was that before he shot Oswald?
Mr.Cutchshaw. That's been about 2½ years ago, the first time I saw him.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes, purporting to report an interview they had with you on December 2, 1963. I am marking this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5042." I have marked for identification the interview report of December 2, 1963, by Mabey and Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, as Exhibit 5043. And I have marked as Exhibit 5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. Bookhout, relating to an interview that Bookhout had with you on November 24th. That is Exhibit 5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview reports and a copy of your letter?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in those documents?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I couldn't see any that I would want to make.
Mr.Griffin. Okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of Sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that right?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you recall who was on duty?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk, and Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and, oh, yes, June McLine, a policewoman.
Mr.Griffin. Can you recall when it was that you first had any information that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail?
Mr.Cutchshaw. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it was about 9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to form a security when they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly what time, I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up about 9 o'clock?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Because I remember that he said we had to be there between, I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at the clock, but I didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers that didn't have a watch pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big clock. I said I better call the boys from the cafe.
They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Who were they?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you say that to?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as possible.
Mr.Griffin. Did you call over at the cafe?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I asked somebody what the number was, and I think it was a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I am not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it up in the book what the number was over there.
Mr.Griffin. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or Goolsby made it?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I sure don't.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where it was you called?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe Diner, right across from the library on Commerce.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to know that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Because that is where they said they were going. That is what we call the "greasy spoon."
Mr.Griffin. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their testimony before the Commission?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were you on duty yesterday?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. What duty hours are you working now?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I work from 8 to 4.
Mr.Griffin. What are your days off?
Mr.Cutchshaw. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and Miller coming back from the diner?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I know the next time I saw them they were down in the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go down to the basement?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Who was that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Captain O. A. Jones.
Mr.Griffin. What time would you estimate that was?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, or 20 minutes after, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that time?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were together.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the elevator?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who that officer was?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else?
Mr.Cutchshaw. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and myself.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, to get some cigars.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you see him?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Down in the lobby.
Mr.Griffin. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, what happened?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are authorized, which was the police officers and the news media.
Mr.Griffin. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when Oswald came down?
Mr.Cutchshaw. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let them get too close to him.
Mr.Griffin. You formed along one of the walls; didn't you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail lobby.
Mr.Griffin. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit No. 5046.]
Mr.Cutchshaw. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back inside the jail, and I was right here at this.
Mr.Griffin. Would you put an "X" there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I was standing right here by the side of the door.
Mr.Griffin. All right; now, did you remain there the entire time?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; until after the shooting.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that particular time?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at any particular position. So I was over here. And there was a bunch of newsmen in this area in here.
Mr.Griffin. In the jail office?
Mr.Cutchshaw. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office except the officers here.
Mr.Griffin. That is behind the desk?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, did anybody help you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and hecame in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant Wiggins that was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure.
Mr.Griffin. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at the time.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see where those people went?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; they came out this door and to the left.
Mr.Griffin. The door where you stationed yourself?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out?
Mr.Cutchshaw. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't know who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into this area here.
Mr.Griffin. Came behind the double doors?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail office window.
Mr.Griffin. Would you put an "X" on the map where the people were?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a minute. I will put it right in front of this window right here.
Mr.Griffin. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one went in and came out?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right; he came out and was standing out here for a moment.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he go?
Mr.Cutchshaw. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was right about in here.
Mr.Griffin. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go?
Mr.Cutchshaw. They went back into this area along there. They got a pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind these offices along that rail.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing TV cameras?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Put an "N" or what?
Mr.Griffin. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and write TV. Make it big enough.
Mr.Cutchshaw. [Complies.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, were there any other TV cameras in the basement, that you recall?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Not right at first, but another one did come in through the door and went down to this position here.
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark this spot that it went to?
Mr.Cutchshaw. The last position I saw it in was about in here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. How long before Oswald came down did that TV camera come out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have marked in the entrance to the garage?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Oh, about 2 or 3 minutes. Just prior to when they were coming down. It is when they were coming down. It is when they came through the door.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at any time while you were down there, was there a TV camera along the wall that Lowery was on?
Mr.Cutchshaw. This one right here that came through here, and Lowery was standing right here.
Mr.Griffin. Put an "L" where Lowery was.
Mr.Cutchshaw. And they came through right down by him, down this ramp here.
Mr.Griffin. Was there ever a TV camera stationed there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Not that I remember; no.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall if the TV camera which you saw go out into the garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the jail office elevators?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I didn't see them come down.
Mr.Griffin. Did he come through the double doors?
Mr.Cutchshaw. He came through the double doors here, and the service elevator, public elevators over here. They came through here. As far as where they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. Did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail office before or after this TV camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. It was before.
Mr.Griffin. After the TV camera came down, where did you station yourself?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I was right back in this door, the same place.
Mr.Griffin. Still there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you look out towards the TV cameras from time to time?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yeah.
Mr.Griffin. Now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards the TV cameras?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Mostly saw lights. I mostly saw lights were shining in my eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of officers and news media.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I know when they were trying to back it down, but it couldn't get through.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember Chief Batchelor being up there by the armored car?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I couldn't see the armored car from where I was.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain in this position that you have marked with an "X" after the TV camera came through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. You mean how long did I stay there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Until after the officers and Lee Oswald came through. Then I stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when the shot rang out.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see any of the officers here in this area along the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I think there was one standing right here, and one right here. But just who they were, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see any of them up further across the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember seeing any. I know there was a line of men along there, and who they were, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. From where you were standing, you could see the TV camera going in that direction, couldn't you?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I saw the TV camera over here; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Could you see from where you were standing any people in front of that TV camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; not that I can remember except there were people right in here.
Mr.Griffin. Would you indicate where you saw people congregating over in the area of the entrance to the garage?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I think there were some—I will put a couple of "X's"—I think there were some along there, and there were people right along here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you able to see how many lines of people there were along across the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Rio Pierce, the same Pierce car go up the ramp?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see it break through the line of newsmen?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes. Did I see a car break through the line?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. All I know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, I know the car did go up, because I don't know how manypeople——
Mr.Griffin. You didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you lose sight of that car?
Mr.Cutchshaw. When it went up past this line here.
Mr.Griffin. On November 24, the day that Oswald was shot, you prepared a letter to Chief Curry, and you were also interviewed by Agent Bookhout. Do you remember those two things?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember whether you prepared your letter to Curry before or after you were interviewed by Bookhout?
Mr.Cutchshaw. It was before.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, after the shooting, did you go back into the jail office?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You followed Ruby and Oswald back in there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I helped carry—I had hold of Ruby's left hand up as far as the jail office door. And all of us couldn't get through at the same time, so I released, because there was another man right in front at his shoulder, so I let go so they could get in.
Mr.Griffin. Were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I think I was, because I was there at the door keeping other people out—after I got in. Let me put it like this: After we got Ruby on the inside, I slammed the door, too.
Mr.Griffin. Did there come a time when you left the jail office?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; there was.
Mr.Griffin. How long after Ruby shot Oswald would you say that was?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I imagine it was only a couple of minutes. Just a very short time.
Mr.Griffin. Then where did you go?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I notified this TV camera officer here with two men, I went over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up this ramp by theirselves, and I do remember seeing three men with that camera at one time, and there was only two men at the time trying to push it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what TV camera that was? What station?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Channel 5 on the camera box.
Mr.Griffin. Have you subsequently learned that it was a Dallas channel 5?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I think so, that channel 5. I believe it is a Fort Worth station. It is one of them, got two of them.
Mr.Griffin. What channel is channel 5? What station?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe that is a Fort Worth station.
Mr.Griffin. What are the call letters on that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Man, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Is it in your statement anywhere?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't know. I don't think I know the call letters. Just channel 5 is the only thing I saw on the box.
Mr.Griffin. How many men were over at the camera at that time?
Mr.Cutchshaw. When I was standing at the door, I had it closed, and I looked out and I saw the camera here with only two men.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you go over to the camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Because I remember three men being with the camera in this area here.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Did you have reason to think one of them might be Ruby?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I didn't at the time, because I figured if there were three men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get it up the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. How many did you see get it up the ramp?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Two.
Mr.Griffin. Did you detain those men?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did anybody assist?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Officer Lowery.
Mr.Griffin. Anybody else?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Not at the time, because we finally got Lieutenant Swain over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and Lowery had them, or Swain talked to them, we got their names where we would be able to ask information of them later.
Mr.Griffin. Who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the TV cameras? Was it Lowery or was he there when you came up?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. How much later did Lowery come up?
Mr.Cutchshaw. When I got over there and this one, I don't know what the names are, I think this one that had the coat on was Alexander, as well as I can remember. He was kind of nervous and shaky. So, then I called Lowery to help me out, because I didn't know whether they might be involved or not.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember where Lowery was standing when you called him over?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I believe he was right over in this area. I am not too sure, but I think he was, because I could see him from here.
Mr.Griffin. The point you are talking about is in front of the double doors?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Between the double doors and the driveway close to, I call that the north wall.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at the time Lowery arrived, was Lieutenant Swain there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. How much longer would you say after Lowery arrived did Lieutenant Swain?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, in the process after I got Lowery over there and we were holding them, we tried to stop two or three officers prior to that, supervisory officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get around, and they finally got Swain, and I think it was maybe 5 or 6 minutes after Lowery got there, and they got Lieutenant Swain to come over and talk to them. Not to talk, but for us to have a conference as to what to do about it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long did you talk with Lieutenant Swain?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, I imagine it was about 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you and Lowery turn the two TV men over to Lieutenant Swain?
Mr.Cutchshaw. When I got the names and everything, Lowery started getting their names and I left.
Mr.Griffin. Did Lowery take the names down in a notebook?
Mr.Cutchshaw. He took the names and he turned them over to the homicide office.
Mr.Griffin. You left, and where did you go?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I came back upstairs to my office.
Mr.Griffin. On the third floor?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Room 314.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I waited up there until further information.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you wait?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Man, I don't know. We was up there for quite a while.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you eventually go out to Love Field?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, before you went out to Love Field, did you prepare a report of what had happened down in the basement?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No, sir; that is where I went, I am sorry. I am getting confused, but when I left the basement, I talked to somebody downstairs about it, and I think that was Captain Jones, and he said, "Well, go upstairs and write out your report, whatever you know, or what you saw." And I went to the homicide bureau first and made out my report in written letter form that you have, and gave it to the homicide office up there, and then I went to my room, which is room 314.
Mr.Griffin. Now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated—let me ask you this: Let me hand you Exhibit 5043. Is that a true and accurate copy of a report that you wrote out in the homicide bureau?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Let me take a minute here [reading report]. You mean word for word?
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this: I notice you pulled out a set of papers from your pocket. You have a copy of the actual report you prepared?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; I have a copy which is one of the Xerox copies of the report which I wrote.
Mr.Griffin. Would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? And retain it for our files?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No, sir; I don't. In fact, it looks like—that is my handwritten copy. I don't know whether you can read it or not.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I think I can make out your handwriting here. I am referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which Detective Crenshaw prepared on November 24, 1963, in the homicide bureau office. Approximately how long after Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr.Cutchshaw. About 20 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Could it have been longer than that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. It could have been longer, but it was approximately 20 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. Could it have been as long as 2 hours later?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think it was that long. It might have been the way things were, but I remember when I left the basement, I did go upstairs, and I did go to the homicide office and that is where I wrote the report.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement told you to go up and write a report on what you saw?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Who was that?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Captain Jones. I know he told me.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Cutchshaw. And there was a standing order to put it down in writing what you saw and what you did.
Mr.Griffin. Was this after everything had been quieted down in the basement?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; well, now, I am losing track of my time again.
Mr.Griffin. It is important that we try to straighten this out.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Let's see. I will have to retract some of them. I don't want to state it that way. But so far as what I have said, it is true, but as far as my time element is concerned, when I left, I had to go up to the first floor, and I kept seeing people coming in and out.
We have three entrances. The Harwood, Main and Commerce, and I think there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and leaving, and checking their identification.
Mr.Griffin. Which entrance was it you were at?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I was checking the Commerce side. I was inside the building close to the information desk, but checking those coming in and leaving the Commerce Street entrance to the building. So it might have been about 2 hours after, because I know I was down there for quite awhile.
Mr.Griffin. When you were at the Commerce Street side, were you at the door going out of the building?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I was in the hallway close to the entrance of the hallway.
Mr.Griffin. As you said before, closer to the information desk?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Closer to the information where the hallway is in front of the desk.
Mr.Griffin. That is on the first floor and not in the basement?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right. It is on the first floor.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who was up there with you taking names?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Was Lowery there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Griffin. Was Harrison there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't think he was there.
Mr.Griffin. Anybody from the juvenile bureau there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I was the only one from the juvenile. There was about four or five officers, two at the desk and one at the Harwood side there, checkingthose, and one on the other side of the desk checking those coming from the Main Street, and I was on Commerce Street.
Mr.Griffin. Did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No; not that I can remember. You mean what I saw down in the basement?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the camera.
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you taken off that duty by anybody?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes. Lieutenant came down and told us it was all right to secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when I left and went up to the homicide office and wrote my report.
Mr.Griffin. When did you get the instructions to write a report on this?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Down in the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Before you got stationed?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Before I had to go upstairs: yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at the time Captain Jones gave you those instructions down there, had the basement sort of quieted down?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a group, or were you all spread out, or how did it happen?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think there were two or three of us there, and I asked about it, and told him, and he said, "The information is good," but he said, "Put it down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later."
Mr.Griffin. Who else was there at the time?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember who all was there.
Mr.Griffin. So, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be your best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come through that you wrote this report? And when I say on the basis of what you said, I don't mean that I want you to conform to anything you have said, but taking into account all the discussion we have had now, what is your best judgment as to how long it was?
Mr.Cutchshaw. About an hour and a half or 2 hours.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you took the names of the two men you found at thecamera——
Mr.Cutchshaw. I didn't take the names.
Mr.Griffin. Lowery took those names?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How were those two men dressed?
Mr.Cutchshaw. One of them had on a long black coat. One of these kind of, like a raincoat—topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best I can remember, had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers.
Mr.Griffin. Where had those two men, as you recall, where had they been on the camera as it was being pushed through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. You mean where? How were they positioned there?
Mr.Griffin. Where was the man in the black coat?
Mr.Cutchshaw. The man in the black coat was on the left side of the camera, and the other one was on the right.
Mr.Griffin. There was one man in between?
Mr.Cutchshaw. As far as I can remember, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you discuss that man with those people that you and Lowery confronted?
Mr.Cutchshaw. You mean the two men at the camera?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ask them where the third man was?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I asked them where the third man was who had helped them with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third man there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ask those men where that camera had been before it came through the double doors?
Mr.Cutchshaw. No.
Mr.Griffin. Have you subsequently learned where it was before it came through the double doors?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes. I heard it had been up on the third floor, and that they were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they were wanting to get a shot taking Oswald up the ramp to the armored car.
Mr.Griffin. Did you learn the names of the two men that you talked with out at that camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I have not since then, no. At the time, I thought one was named John Alexander, but I don't know what their names are.
Mr.Griffin. When Lowery saw you questioning those two men, do you recall if Lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third man on the camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, when I called him over there, I told him what I had, and he said, "Yes, he remembered a third man being with them."
Mr.Griffin. But Lowery came over at your beckoning?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Lowery did not come over spontaneously?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When you arrived up in the homicide office to write your report, who was there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Lowery was there, and there was some officers from the homicide bureau there, and Captain Fritz was in his office, and I think there was a Secret Service man there with him. I don't know what his name was. I was told it was a Secret Service man.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know L. D. Montgomery?
Mr.Cutchshaw. You mean the detective?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether he was there?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't recall whether he was or not.
Mr.Griffin. Was Blackie Harrison there when you arrived?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I think he was there in the office. I believe he was in there, and there was Lieutenant Wallace. I just don't remember who else was there. I know the place was full.
Mr.Griffin. Who else was there? Let me ask you—I want to ask you here to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest opinion on this.
You have had a chance to talk with many police officers, I presume, about all the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors that there have been about the man walking down the Main Street ramp and so forth and so on.
Do you still feel—can you tell me whether or not you still have a belief that Jack Ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera in, in your own mind?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Well, in my own mind, I can tell you this: I did see the third man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two men—there were three men, but still only two were trying to push the camera, and that is the reason I went out and contacted the two men.
Let me tell you, I did learn from Lieutenant Wallace—that is one of the investigators on the thing for the city—one of you might have talked with him—that you contacted the crews on this camera—and he did say that a man that was with these cameras over here that at about—see, there is a slight decline in this area right here where Lowery was.
Mr.Griffin. There was a decline where Lowery was standing?
Mr.Cutchshaw. At the time that that camera was being pushed, a man came from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. If there is where I got the three men, but I do remember seeing three men on that camera.
Mr.Griffin. And, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man crew?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Off one of these cameras here. Channel 5 already had one camera down here, but they said—that is where I got the reason for this—they brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the telescopic lens to get a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the armored car was. But still I did see three men pushing that camera through here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Let's put this on the record. Now, as I understand the story that you heard was that a man came from the two TV cameras, from the channel 5 camera that was already stationed behind a railing?
Mr.Cutchshaw. All right.
Mr.Griffin. And came off and assisted two other men who had already been pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the camera at approximately when that camera was near Lowery?
Mr.Cutchshaw. That is what I was told, what I heard.
Mr.Griffin. Now, if that were true, do you think as you look at—out in the area toward where Lowery and that camera would have been at that point, that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera?
Mr.Cutchshaw. If I had been looking there at that time, I could have; yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, what I am getting at is, the area that was in front of those two stationery TV cameras was clear, wasn't it?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; because the cameras and lights were right here. And they had lights up here shining in here.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Cutchshaw. Now, the camera came this route here through these swinging doors.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see it come through the swinging doors?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Yes; I saw it coming through the swinging doors because these doors came open and they come through, and I was standing right here. I wasn't right exactly at the corner door, but I was in the doorway at the time.
I held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera came right on down here and was parked in this area.
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through the swinging doors where Lowery was stationed and over to the point that you have marked it as the final resting place in the garage entrance?
Mr.Cutchshaw. That is where I saw it; yes.
Mr.Griffin. You have also been told that this same channel 5 had some other new camera behind the railing?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of the railing clear of people at the time that that camera came through?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. I know that right after the camera came through, that these men down here started hollering to everyone to clear back. Evidently some were standing in front of the cameras down there and that is why they had to clear them out.
So far as I remember, most of the people were standing here, and in front of the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, and on the north side of the hallway, and into the ramp there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, this guy you say had on a dark suit?
Mr.Cutchshaw. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall if he had on a hat?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I do not, because the man I saw was bent over pushing like that [indicating]. All three is what struck me strange that all three of them, not one was putting all his weight, but all three were bent over pushing like that.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that you ran for those TV cameras after the shooting, did you know that Jack Ruby had been the person who shot Oswald?
Mr.Cutchshaw. I knew that. I helped carry the man through the jail office doors to the jail office, and while I was there standing guard on the doors, someone said who is he, and a guy said it is Jack Ruby. And I was standing in the door when a doctor came in right after we got Ruby in there and they brought Oswald, and immediately thereafter, someone was banging on the door trying to get through, and I tried to push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and that he had been called. And I run my hand down his side and he had the stethoscope in his right hand coat pocket, and I let him through.