Mr.Hubert. How long did the club continue to operate?
Mr.Armstrong. It continued to operate until February, I think it was, the last of February—the last Friday in February.
Mr.Hubert. Who decided to close it?
Mr.Armstrong. The vice squad decided to close it.
Mr.Hubert. For what reason?
Mr.Armstrong. I mean, the Liquor Control Board.
Mr.Hubert. Because the license hadn’t been paid?
Mr.Armstrong. Because the license was in Jack’s name and it was obvious he had violated those liquor licenses when he shot Oswald.
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever seen anybody at the club that looked like Oswald?
Mr.Armstrong. No; never did.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen Oswald himself in the club?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever tell anybody that you had?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Specifically, did you ever tell Larry Crafard that you had?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Billy DeMar?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who is he?
Mr.Armstrong. He was an M.C.
Mr.Hubert. He also had a memory act, didn’t he?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes, he did.
Mr.Hubert. You have heard the story, haven’t you?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; I have heard the story.
Mr.Hubert. That he said he had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr.Armstrong. That’s what he told me—he said he thought that he saw somebody that could have been Oswald.
Mr.Hubert. When did he tell you that?
Mr.Armstrong. That was later—he said—he was walking around every night saying that the newspaper misunderstood what he had said. He said he definitely did not state the statement that they had in the paper.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think it is possible that you told Larry Crafard that you had seen him, that you thought you had seen somebody that looked like Oswald in the club?
Mr.Armstrong. No, it isn’t possible—no.
Mr.Hubert. We have been going for 3 hours, and let’s adjourn for lunch.
(At this point the proceedings in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong were recessed for lunch and resumed at 1:35 p.m. on the same date, April 14, 1964, as follows:)
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Armstrong, you understand that we are continuing the deposition which we started this morning, and which we adjourned at about noon, and you understand that we are continuing it under the same oath and conditions upon which it was begun. You understand further that you are under the same oath you took this morning at the very beginning of the deposition?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you consider yourself to be under that same oath?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Let me clarify one point before I go further—with reference to the gun or pistol that you have already testified about, can you give us a description of it?
Mr.Armstrong. Let’s see—it was not a large gun, a small barrel on it, I guess you would call it a snub nose.
Mr.Hubert. I notice you were holding your fingers apart there?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And would you say you were holding them about 5 inches apart?
Mr.Armstrong. About 5 inches, I would say.
Mr.Hubert. And that’s the whole length of the gun from one tip to the other?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; I would say so.
Mr.Hubert. Was it a revolver?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; I think it was a revolver.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember what kind of barrel it had on it?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, it had a little short barrel.
Mr.Hubert. But I mean, what color was it; black, blue, steel?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, it was—I don’t remember—I only saw the gun, you know, in sight—you know I saw the bag a jillion times, but the gun only a couple of times, I would say.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of handle did it have on it; do you remember?
Mr.Armstrong. I think it had a brown handle on it.
Mr.Hubert. Did Mr. Ruby have a holster for that gun?
Mr.Armstrong. I never saw it with one—I never saw a holster.
Mr.Hubert. Now, by a holster, I am including both types of holsters, one that is worn on the belt around the hip and one that is worn slung around the shoulders and the gun is usually in the armpit, you know what I mean?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You never saw either type?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. As a matter of fact, as I understood your testimony, you never saw him actually carry it on his person at all?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Either in his pocket or stuck in his belt or otherwise?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whose gun that was?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I assumed it was his gun.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear any talk about whose gun it was?
Mr.Armstrong. No; he asked me where is my gun—the few times he came in and left it in the kitchen and asked me about it and I would say, “You left it in the kitchen, or some place like that.”
Mr.Hubert. All right. Turning to another subject—did you ever observe any particular interest on the part of Ruby with reference to police or police work?
Mr.Armstrong. Any particular part or effort?
Mr.Hubert. Any particular interest on his part in police or police work—generally?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever in your presence express any views toward the police—good or bad?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, the only views he ever spoke was good views.
Mr.Hubert. Could you give us an example?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, just that he didn’t like to hear anyone knocking the police department.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear anyone knock the police department in his presence?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, no, not direct—saying any bad things about the police department, but someone might have made a statement about the police department and he would not like it.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, are you drawing on your imagination for that, or do you remember a specific instance in which he indicated that he did not like a person speaking in a bad way about the police?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, I don’t remember—in my mind I was trying to remember—to recall an incident, but I don’t remember an incident, but there was an incident, I’m sure.
Mr.Hubert. As I understand you, then, you definitely have the impression that he did not like people talking badly about the police?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t remember any specific instance which you can give us as an example of how you formed that impression?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. But the impression, nevertheless, is in your mind?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever heard him discuss politics?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. What opinion do you have concerning his interest in politics?
Mr.Armstrong. His interest was that—I have heard him say—I have heard him say this, that anybody that was elected to hold a certain office must be responsible and capable of taking care of that position or they wouldn’t be elected.
Mr.Hubert. Now, that is a specific instance that you remember?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us when it was?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I don’t remember when it was, but I remember that incident—I know who he was talking to—it was just a conversation and I happened to be there and to hear this party.
Mr.Hubert. His view, generally, then, was that an elected official should be respected, is that the idea?
Mr.Hubert. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Because they had been elected by the people?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss the President of the United States?
Mr.Armstrong. I’m sure I have—everybody has, but I don’t know of what nature or what subject, but I’m sure I heard him discuss the President.
Mr.Hubert. Now, of course, you know that in this country as perhaps all over the world there are different views about government, and society normally called “isms” left or right or communisms or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or things of that sort?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever heard Ruby express himself in areas of thought such as those?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I know he threw a guy out of the club once for speaking as a Communist.
Mr.Hubert. Will you tell us about that?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, it was just that this guy was heckling with the MC, Wally Weston, and he was coming on like he was a large portion of the Communist Party.
Mr.Hubert. This man was—this patron?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; and Wally stepped off of the stage—he made a remarkthat——
Mr.Hubert. When you say “he” do you mean Wally?
Mr.Armstrong. No; the customer made a remark that Wally could be—made a remark something similar to Wally could be a Communist or something like that too, in other words, “How do I know, you may be a Communist, too,” or something like that. And, Wally stepped off of the stage and said, “Don’t you call me a Communist,” and he hit the guy and by the time he hit him Jack had him and was rushing him out the door, and told him, “Never come back in this club no more.”
Mr.Hubert. Did he push him out of the door?
Mr.Armstrong. He pushed him out of the door—he pushed him up against the wall and told him to go out the door.
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t hit him?
Mr.Armstrong. No; he didn’t hit him—Wally hit him.
Mr.Hubert. And Jack hustled him out?
Mr.Armstrong. When you go out the door, you are going to face a wall—in other words, the stairways come up like this [indicating], and the door is here and you’ve got to turn and go down the stairway and he shoved the guy right on into the wall.
Mr.Hubert. Then he walked down the stairs?
Mr.Armstrong. Then he hurried down the stairs.
Mr.Hubert. When was this incident?
Mr.Armstrong. It was—I would say around the last of September or somewhere along in there or October.
Mr.Hubert. What makes you fix the date?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, it was toward the last part of the summer, I’m sure.
Mr.Hubert. This man had been in the audience boasting, you say, that he was a big shot Communist?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, not a big shot, but he come on like he was a big portion of the Communist Party.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of looking man was he?
Mr.Armstrong. He was a young fellow with two other young couples from Arlington State College—I think that’s where he said he was from.
Mr.Hubert. Who told you that?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, that’s what they said—that’s what they had said,Wally had asked them where they was from and he said he was a student at Arlington—I’m sure they said Arlington.
Mr.Hubert. At where?
Mr.Armstrong. At Arlington College.
Mr.Hubert. At Arlington State College?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr.Armstrong. In Arlington, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. And you say there were two couples?
Mr.Armstrong. No; there were two men and a lady.
Mr.Hubert. And it was one of the men who was going on like he was a big Communist?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. The other man and the lady were quiet?
Mr.Armstrong. They were quiet and never said a thing and they apologized for his behavior after Jack had put this other guy out.
Mr.Hubert. Did they stay on?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; they said—Wally said, “Are you going to follow your friend?” And they said, “No; we couldn’t say he was a friend of ours, and we just happened to be together.” And then he dropped out.
Mr.Hubert. How was this man dressed, do you know?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, he had a suit on.
Mr.Hubert. How old a man was he?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, about 21 or 22, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. How tall was he?
Mr.Armstrong. About 5 feet 9, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. What would be your estimate of his weight?
Mr.Armstrong. Not much over 150 or 160.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have a tie on?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; he had a tie on.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have a mustache?
Mr.Armstrong. No mustache.
Mr.Hubert. What color was his hair?
Mr.Armstrong. I think he had dark—I don’t know whether it was black or dark brown, but it was dark.
Mr.Hubert. I would like, if you could, for you to fix the time of that incident a bit closer than you have been able to do it so far.
Mr.Armstrong. Well, no; I couldn’t—the air conditioners were running.
Mr.Hubert. The air conditioners were running?
Mr.Armstrong. And it was around the last of August—it wasn’t too—well, if you could ask Wally he probably could give you a better date than I could when it was.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t remember the night of the week?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I sure don’t.
Mr.Hubert. Would it be helpful if you tried to estimate how long before the assassination of the President this all happened?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was Crafard there then?
Mr.Armstrong. No; he came after.
Mr.Hubert. That was before Crafard came?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. About how long was it before Crafard came?
Mr.Armstrong. I don’t know—well—it was sometime during the summer
Mr.Hubert. Did you talk to Ruby about it afterwards?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear Ruby say anything about it afterwards?
Mr.Armstrong. No; Wally and I discussed it.
Mr.Hubert. What was the nature of that discussion?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, I was teasing him about his right hook.
Mr.Hubert. His what?
Mr.Armstrong. His right hook.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he hit the guy pretty good?
Mr.Armstrong. You see, Wally split his hand open and I got some band-aids and bandaged it up a little bit and helped him clean it off.
Mr.Hubert. Where is Wally Weston now?
Mr.Armstrong. Where is he?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Armstrong. I don’t know—he was working at the Club Montemarte, but he’s not there any more and I’m sure he’s not in town now, so he’s probably on the road some place.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember any other people who were there that night, such as George Senator or Ralph Paul?
Mr.Armstrong. No; things like that I don’t try to remember.
Mr.Hubert. When did Weston leave, do you remember?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, let’s see, Wally left in September, I think.
Mr.Hubert. And how long had he been there?
Mr.Armstrong. He had been there since about June 1961—no, 1962, I’m sorry.
Mr.Hubert. He was there about 15 months, but you thought that it was in the last month that he was there?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; somewhere right around the last few months he was there.
Mr.Hubert. Well, if he left in September—you thought earlier than that—it might be, this incident might have occurred in August, if that’s the case, it wouldn’t be then?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, when he left there—he still had that scar—it was still sort of open a little bit on his hand, and it hadn’t been healed up—well, it had healed, but it was such a big gash and you could still see the print where they took the stitches out.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have to go to the hospital?
Mr.Armstrong. He had some stitches taken in his hand.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us anything from your own knowledge, that is having heard or seen things at the club, which would throw light upon Ruby’s attitude toward the race question, the Jewish question, and so forth?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever heard him fussing with his entertainers who cracked jokes about Jews?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, he didn’t like for the entertainers to crack any jokes about Jews or to tell any Jewish stories.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, he told me himself.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what he told you.
Mr.Armstrong. Well, you see, Wally and some of the other M.C.’s have some pretty good jokes about Negroes and Jack told meonce——
Mr.Hubert. Who told you?
Mr.Armstrong. Jack asked me once—did Wally’s jokes offend men in any kind of way, and I told him “no”. So, he said—well, there was something about it he didn’t like—the reason why he didn’t like his M.C.’s to tell any Jewish jokes was something about the Jews have already had enough problems and enough troubles already or something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I don’t think so—I wouldn’t say that he was proud of being a Jew, I wouldn’t say he was not proud, because I don’t know. He never showed anything to give me any kind of reason to form an opinion about that.
Mr.Hubert. When Larry Crafard left and you found out about it, what was your reaction?
Mr.Armstrong. I didn’t have any reaction.
Mr.Hubert. What did you think about it?
Mr.Armstrong. Nothing; just plumb nothing.
Mr.Hubert. Well, weren’t you surprised that this man should go off like that?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Why not—it was rather strange conduct just to pick up and leave?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, I didn’t give it any thought—he left the way he came. He came unexpectedly and he left unexpectedly. It didn’t bother me one bit whether he stayed or whether he left.
Mr.Hubert. Did you, prior to the shooting of Oswald, give any thought to the possibility that maybe this man Crafard was getting out of town for some reason?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know how he was getting out of town?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I didn’t—I didn’t know how he was leaving.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever found out?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I didn’t ask him when I saw him at the trial.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about what conversation you—there was between you and Crafard at the trial of Ruby?
Mr.Armstrong. No conversation at all. He did most of the talking.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what he said?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, he didn’t say anything, but he said something about—he was surprised when he heard about Jack—the shooting of Oswald, and Jack, and that the FBI had contacted him, and I just told him that I had found the letter from this girl Gayle and had given it to the FBI and that was about all there was—that was about it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you where he had been?
Mr.Armstrong. No; he didn’t tell me where he had been. He said he had a job in some kind of mine somewhere up in Missouri or wherever he was, and he left there to come back here to the trial.
Mr.Hubert. He told you that he had come to Dallas for the purpose of attending the trial?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; for the purpose of testifying.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember where it was you spoke to him?
Mr.Armstrong. In the county courthouse downtown.
Mr.Hubert. You mean just in the hallway?
Mr.Armstrong. Downstairs—just as you come in the door.
Mr.Hubert. You only had one conversation with him?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; that afternoon I was on my way back after recess and he was on one side of the street and I was on the other side of the street and he saw me and he came across the street and he said, “You remember this suit?” It was the suit that Jack bought him, and I said, “Yes.” And he said, “This is all I’ve got—that Jack bought it for me.”
Mr.Hubert. Is that the only other time you spoke to him?
Mr.Armstrong. That’s the only time.
Mr.Hubert. How long did the conversation last?
Mr.Armstrong. Not longer than a few minutes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you give any thought to the possibility that Crafard’s sudden departure the way he went might be linked up with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You never have given any thought to that?
Mr.Armstrong. No, no; not at all.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to the shooting of Oswald, and now that you look back on it, can you tell us anything that indicated that he might have been thinking of doing it?
Mr.Armstrong. That Jack might have been thinking of doing it?
Mr.Hubert. You understand I don’t mean that you knew prior to the shooting that he was going to do it, but now that you look back on those days.
Mr.Armstrong. I know what you mean.
Mr.Hubert. Is there anything that you can remember?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. That might throw some light on what he was thinking about in that regard?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I don’t believe he was thinking about it until after he did it. The reason why I say that, because you’ve got to know Jack—he alwaysdid things on the spur of the moment, you know. He always blowed up just like that [snapping his fingers], if something disturbed him, he would always just crack up. He was charming one minute and the next minute he was all riled up.
Mr.Hubert. Were you interviewed by the Dallas police concerning this matter?
Mr.Armstrong. No; never.
Mr.Hubert. Never?
Mr.Armstrong. Never.
Mr.Hubert. Were you interviewed by the district attorney?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or any of his staff?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Were you interviewed by Jack Ruby’s attorneys?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You were subpenaed to go to the trial?
Mr.Armstrong. I was subpenaed to go to the trial.
Mr.Hubert. Did anyone ever talk to you about the nature of the testimony you were expected to give?
Mr.Armstrong. No; the only someone I talked to is Belli. He came up to the club the first night, the second day he was in town, and he asked me what did I think of Jack Ruby, when I was letting him in the office, he hadn’t gotten in the office good before he asked me that, and I told him, and he said “Okay,” and nobody ever talked to me since then.
Mr.Hubert. What did you tell him?
Mr.Armstrong. The same thing I told you—about him cracking up—he just—everything he did, he did it on impulse.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ask you about that or did you volunteer that?
Mr.Armstrong. No; he asked me—he just popped up and asked me.
Mr.Hubert. Did he pop up and ask you, “What do you think about Jack Ruby?” Or, did he ask you “Does he pop up and flare up suddenly?”
Mr.Armstrong. No; here’s the exact words he asked me, “Why do you think Jack shot Oswald?”
Mr.Hubert. And what did you tell him?
Mr.Armstrong. Just that he did it on an impulse, is the only reason at all—just cracked up and shot the man.
Mr.Hubert. But Ruby never carried a gun around on his person, did he?
Mr.Armstrong. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. He had a gun that day with him, though? Would that influence your thinking somewhat?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. And from what I understand of your previous testimony, the that fact that he would have a gun on him would be unusual; wouldn’t it?
Mr.Armstrong. Coming in and out of the club, yes; but I don’t know whether he carried it on him or not when he was not coming in and out of the club. In other words, I was stating that if he did carry a gun—when I saw him with a gun, it was always in a bag, never on him, but when he was away from the club—I don’t know where he had this gun.
Mr.Hubert. But your impression was that he didn’t carry it?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Therefore, when you found that he did carry it on the day he shot Oswald, didn’t that rather surprise you?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, no; my wife asked me, “What was Jack doing with a gun?” And I said, “I don’t know. He might have just had it in the car and didn’t want to open the trunk because he had that money in there, probably, and just stuck it in his pocket and wasn’t in his senses that he had been in all the time.”
Mr.Hubert. Your wife, in fact, was curious about the same things I’m asking you about?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Why would she have been curious about that?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, it was because that she never knew that he carried oneand she didn’t like guns, so when it come to the question of a gun, she, by being a woman, and you know how women are about being curious, she asked the question, but she asked a whole lot of other questions about things she never knew.
Mr.Hubert. So, your testimony is that when you found that Ruby had shot Oswald, you were not surprised that he was carrying a gun?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I wasn’t surprised.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever talked to any members of Ruby’s family about the man?
Mr.Armstrong. About the gun?
Mr.Hubert. No; about Ruby’s case.
Mr.Armstrong. No; not other than Mrs. Grant called me and talked to me and she would do most of the talking—this and that and it’s always about the same thing and it just bugs me, you know.
Mr.Hubert. You have only spoken to her by phone since Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I spoke to her in person. I have seen her at the club a couple of times. She has been up there and I have seen her down at the courthouse and I saw her a number of times up to the club after the club had been closed, down at the club trying to sell it.
Mr.Hubert. Did she ever talk about the case itself?
Mr.Armstrong. No; not to—not any more than any other sister would say when her brother was being locked up or committed a crime.
Mr.Hubert. Well, when you were subpenaed, did you ever ask her or anybody what they were calling you for?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I didn’t ask anyone.
Mr.Hubert. And you just hung around the court during the entire time of the trial?
Mr.Armstrong. Not the entire time of the trial; the last week of the trial—Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.
Mr.Hubert. Those were the only 3 days you were there?
Mr.Armstrong. Just those 3 days.
Mr.Hubert. You received your subpena after the trial began?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you were there for 3 days?
Mr.Armstrong. Three days.
Mr.Hubert. The trial ended on Saturday, I think?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Who excused you?
Mr.Armstrong. Phil Burleson.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you why?
Mr.Armstrong. He just said—I asked him the second day—I ask him, I said, “Well, listen, when are you going to use me, because I’ve got a job and these people are not going to hold off—they are going to hire somebody else.”
And he said, “We are going to put you on tomorrow, in fact we will get to you tomorrow,” and Belli changed his mind about using me on account of the record I have.
Mr.Hubert. How did you find that out?
Mr.Armstrong. Phil Burleson came out that afternoon and told me and I kept asking him—no, that was after the judge had recessed for that day, I asked him, I said, “Listen, I’ve got to go to work tomorrow,” and he says, “Well, go ahead, Belli is not going to use you on account of your record,” and so, to my surprise I lost my job by not being able to work those 3 days.
Mr.Hubert. Who were you employed by then?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, I had just started with Yardell Construction Co., they build houses—homes.
Mr.Hubert. Other than the time you spoke to Belli at the club and he asked you what you thought about Jack or why he killed him and you told him, did you ever speak to Belli or anybody else about what your testimony would be about?
Mr.Armstrong. No; never.
Mr.Hubert. So, that as far as you know, they were going to question you about your opinion about Jack?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; that’s what I thought.
Mr.Hubert. And then, Burleson told you the reason they couldn’t use you was because of your record?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen pictures of Oswald?
Mr.Armstrong. In the paper?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I guess you saw pictures on TV and some of the famous pictures that were published at the time he got shot?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Does he bear any resemblance to that man that had the fight with Wally Weston?
Mr.Armstrong. No; this gentleman that had the fight with Wally Weston was sort of a young loudmouth, a smart alec—he had kind of a full face—a handsome fellow.
Mr.Hubert. You are willing to state that it was not the man whom you have come to know through pictures as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Armstrong. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And you would be positive about that?
Mr.Armstrong. Positive.
Mr.Hubert. You worked for a man by the name of Roland Davis one time?
Mr.Armstrong. Roland Davis?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; I think he was connected someway with the El Rancho Hotel.
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You worked there in 1961?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes; that was right after I got out—I have forgotten about that—right after I got back.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr.Armstrong. I was a night clerk at the motel.
Mr.Hubert. Who hired you?
Mr.Armstrong. Mr. Davis.
Mr.Hubert. Does Mr. Davis have other lines besides running the motel?
Mr.Armstrong. Not that I know.
Mr.Hubert. Was he engaged in selling—in dealing with Jeeps?
Mr.Armstrong. No; I never saw any Jeeps. The only cars I saw he would own was a Cadillac and a station wagon that had “El Rancho” on the side of his station wagon.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if Ruby was ever involved in trading in automobiles with Jeeps?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You never heard that at all?
Air. Armstrong. He just could get a car, from what I gather.
Mr.Hubert. What was that?
Mr.Armstrong. He just could get a car from what I get.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I wasn’t thinking of his buying Jeeps for his own use, but trading in them. That is to say, as a business.
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a Nancy Jo Mooney?
Mr.Armstrong. Nancy Jo Mooney; no.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did you know one by the name of Betty MacDonald?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear of a girl who had worked at the Carousel as either a waitress or a stripper who committed suicide about the middle of February of this year?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. By hanging herself in jail?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. And she was arrested.
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You have never heard anything about that?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. And any of those names—Betty MacDonald or Nancy Jo Mooney mean nothing to you?
Mr.Armstrong. There was a girl named Nancy who worked at the club for a few nights or a few weeks—I don’t recall. There were so many girls came there—some of them I don’t even remember their names, but I don’t know whether it was Jo Mooney or what her last name was—as a matter of fact, I don’t even recall how she looked, but I remember writing the name Nancy as a waitress.
Mr.Hubert. Did they have a Polaroid camera at the club?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was it used for?
Mr.Armstrong. To make pictures of the twisting, customers doing the twist on the stage, which the M.C. would use to make a joke with them—and give the customers the picture.
Mr.Hubert. Who operated that camera?
Mr.Armstrong. I did.
Mr.Hubert. Did Larry Crafard do so also?
Mr.Armstrong. One Sunday night, I think he did—I remember showing him how to operate it.
Mr.Hubert. Were those the only pictures that were allowed to be taken in there?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear of any other photographer?
Mr.Armstrong. Well—therewas——
Mr.Hubert. Who would come in and take pictures?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, there was this magazine that came in to make some shots, but they required—that was for the magazine article did on the Carousel Club, which, anybody that appeared in the picture that was a customer signed a release on that picture, or if they did not sign a release on the picture, it couldn’t be used.
Mr.Hubert. When did that take place?
Mr.Armstrong. That took place sometime between the last of October and the first of November. Larry was there—he came there the last of October—it must have been the first of November.
Mr.Hubert. Must have been around the first of November—did he stay just 1 night?
Mr.Armstrong. No, no; 1 week.
Mr.Hubert. What was the man’s name, do you know?
Mr.Armstrong. Offhand, I can’t recall his name.
Mr.Hubert. Was his name Rocco?
Mr.Armstrong. Rocco; that’s right.
Mr.Hubert. And he took a series of pictures?
Mr.Armstrong. He took a series of pictures.
Mr.Hubert. He stayed about a week and then left?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. But other than that, there were no pictures taken?
Mr.Armstrong. No, no other pictures.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Jimmy Rhodes?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who was he?
Mr.Armstrong. He’s a photographer.
Mr.Hubert. Did he come around?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he take pictures?
Mr.Armstrong. Of the girls—usually at his studio. If he made any at the club, it was not during business. It was all right for anybody—there was lots of pictures made, you know, like during the day, if the girls wanted to come up and pose for the photographers and things like that, that was okay, but when I said no other pictures were made in the club, I was speaking of during business.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, there was no commercial photographer there who would take the pictures of the patrons and sell them to them; is that right?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. But anybody could take pictures if they wanted to?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes, if they come in after I get there in the daytime and tell me they would be there to make pictures.
Mr.Hubert. I mean, during the shows?
Mr.Armstrong. No, no; anybody couldn’t take pictures, if we saw anyone with a camera we would take it away from them—they had to check them.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, it was prohibited to take pictures?
Mr.Armstrong. They was prohibited from taking pictures.
Mr.Hubert. And nobody you knew of could take pictures except Jimmy Rhodes and Rocco and of course you, with your Polaroid?
Mr.Armstrong. Right, but Jimmy Rhodes could not take pictures during business. In other words, when we had customers in the house and there was a show going on, no one could take any pictures but Rocco is the only one I know that made pictures, besides myself, when there was a show going on and we had customers in the club. I’m speaking of before this assassination.
Mr.Hubert. Yes. Did you know Officer Tippit, the man that was shot by Oswald?
Mr.Armstrong. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew him?
Mr Armstrong. He said that he knew Officer Tippit, but from what I gather later on—Mrs. Grant told me it was a different Officer Tippit that he knew. In other words, there was two officers that had the name of Tippit, from what I gather, and Jack said when the news was coming over the radio about the policeman being shot, that it was Officer Tippit; Jack jumped straight up and said, “I know him—I know him.” Just like that.
Mr.Hubert. What was his reaction to the shooting of Tippit?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, he said—he was in a sort of—he said, “Isn’t it a shame?” You know.
Mr.Hubert. Did he seem to be as disturbed about the shooting of Tippit as he was about the shooting of the President?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, he was already disturbed and he didn’t show to be any more disturbed over that than he already were.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know about a girl named Gloria?
Mr.Armstrong. There was a girl named Gloria that worked up there—I can’t recall how she looked, but I remember the name Gloria.
Mr.Hubert. How do you remember her?
Mr.Armstrong. By the name.
Mr.Hubert. What was she doing in the club?
Mr.Armstrong. She was a waitress—I don’t know whether she did any dancing or not on the amateurs, but I know that there was a girl by the name of Gloria.
Mr.Hubert. Was she with Ruby, did she date him, or what?
Mr.Armstrong. Not that I know of—it wasn’t one of the girls that I hired, so he must have brought her in.
Mr.Hubert. How long did she stay there?
Mr.Armstrong. Not long.
Mr.Hubert. Well, how many days?
Mr.Armstrong. I couldn’t say—a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month—I don’t know. It couldn’t have been over a month though, because the girls that stayed there usually stayed there a month or 2 months—I usually remember them quite well.
Mr.Hubert. Wasn’t there some girl that was going with Jack during the last 2 or 3 days before the President was shot?
Mr.Armstrong. No, not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember a girl by the name of Joyce Lee McDonald?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What do you know about her?
Mr.Armstrong. She is a stripper. Her name is—her stage name is Joy Dale.
Mr.Hubert. Was she at the club?
Mr.Armstrong. She was at the club.
Mr.Hubert. During what period?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, during the period of—I would say 2 months before the assassination through the end of the year. She left about the third week in January, I would say, approximately 3 weeks she worked during 1964.
Mr.Hubert. She was a stripper, was she?
Mr.Armstrong. She was a stripper.
Mr.Hubert. You have heard that Jack was supposed to have been in the B & B Cafe with some girl either before the President was shot, the night before or the night after, haven’t you?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes, I heard that.
Mr.Hubert. As a matter of fact, I think you were asked about that by the FBI?
Mr.Armstrong. I don’t know—I don’t know whether I was or not. Somebody asked me about it—yes, I’m pretty sure it must have been the FBI.
Mr.Hubert. Didn’t you identify the girl as being Joyce McDonald?
Mr.Armstrong. No, I don’t recall—no, I wouldn’t have—I wouldn’t have identified the girl as being Joyce McDonald, because I wouldn’t have had any way of knowing who it was unless they described her to me, and as I said, it could have been Joyce.
Mr.Hubert. You remember a girl who worked about 5 or 6 nights at the Carousel Club and whom Ruby had taken home after closing hours on each of the nights she worked?
This was a girl that you tried to locate after Oswald was shot to help you run the club?
Do you remember looking for such a girl?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, that was the lady—oh—I don’t recall her name now—“Duckie” or something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that lady, in any case?
Mr.Armstrong. Well, all I know is that Jack had told me she had some knowledge of club running and that she was very smart and sharp and when I had went to see him, he had suggested that if I—hesaid——
Mr.Hubert. You mean when you went to see him in jail?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes, he said, “I don’t want to be involved with the club any more, but if you want to do it, you can contact this lady.” He give me her name—it was “Duckie” or something like that, to come down and give you a hand, because she knows something about operating a club and you can talk to Ralph about it.
Mr.Hubert. And you tried to find that girl?
Mr.Armstrong. I tried to contact her and I didn’t have any luck and I told Ralph about it and he said “forget it.”
Mr.Hubert. Now, that girl you remember as being the girl who had been around the club four or five or six times; isn’t that correct?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. And that Jack used to take home at night?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t mean to his house, but he did—he left with her, at any rate?
Mr.Armstrong. I don’t know whether he left with her or not because I leave before he does.
Mr.Hubert. Well, do you remember making the statement to the FBI to the effect you knew of one girl there that worked for 5 or 6 nights, it was the same girl you looked for later, and that Ruby had taken her home after closing hours on each of the nights she had worked there?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You say you went to see Jack in the jail?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How many times did you go to see him?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, five or six, maybe seven times.
Mr.Hubert. Were you alone with him all the time?
Mr.Armstrong. No; there was always a policeman standing there. A guard.
Mr.Hubert. Did he talk about his difficulties?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. What did he talk about?
Mr.Armstrong. He talked mostly about the dogsand——
Mr.Hubert. What did he say about Sheba?
Mr.Armstrong. Just that see that Sheba don’t eat too much because she will get too fat.
Mr.Hubert. What did he say about leaving Sheba in the automobile that Sunday when Oswald was shot?
Mr.Armstrong. He didn’t say—he didn’t mention that to me. The first time I went to see him I asked him where were Sheba and he told me he had left her in the automobile and later on, so he told me, to contact the pound, to see if the pound had Sheba, and would they release her, so I called the pound and the pound said that they had her, and Joy Dale went out and picked her up and brought her to the club.
Mr.Hubert. That’s the McDonald girl?
Mr.Armstrong. That’s the McDonald girl.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell Jack about that?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack tell you how he got in the basement?
Mr.Armstrong. No; he never discussed the shooting.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you about having sent a money telegram to Karen Bennett that morning?
Mr.Armstrong. He told me that.
Mr.Hubert. What did he tell you about that?
Mr.Armstrong. He said he had sent—that Little Lynn owed him $20 or $25, whatever it was, he sent her, plus some more money that she had already drawed that was not on the record, before they paid the payroll, and deduct it from her salary.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you the circumstances under which he had sent her money?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you he sent it by telegram?
Mr.Armstrong. He didn’t tell me he sent it by telegram—no; he didn’t tell me, but Little Lynn told me.
Mr.Hubert. What did Little Lynn tell you?
Mr.Armstrong. She just said that Jack had sent her the money. You see, I asked her first how much money had she drew and she told me and she also told me that Jack had sent her about $25, I think it was, by telegram.
Mr.Hubert. Did she tell you why she needed the money by wire?
Mr.Armstrong. No; she didn’t tell me why.
Mr.Hubert. Her pay wasn’t due until Sunday night, isn’t that right?
Mr.Armstrong. Until Sunday night, which we was closed, they didn’t get paid Sunday night.
Mr.Hubert. They got paid Monday night?
Mr.Armstrong. I think it was Tuesday before they got paid.
Mr.Hubert. And it was then that you deducted from Little Lynn’s pay the amount that had been advanced to her?
Mr.Armstrong. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Had you seen Jack yet?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes, I saw Jack on Monday.
Mr.Hubert. But he didn’t mention to you that the money had been sent to her by telegram?
Mr.Armstrong. He—yes, he said that he sent the money—he said, “I sent Little Lynn $25”—he said, “I sent Little Lynn $25.” He didn’t tell me about telegram.
Mr.Hubert. He never discussed with you at all how he got into the jail house?
Mr.Armstrong. No, never did.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever talk to you about, or did you know that he could go to the police department and find his way about because he knew a lot of people over there?
Mr.Armstrong. No, he never talked to me about that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know that to be a fact?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. That he could do that?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. On these 8 or 10 visits that you made to Jack, he never had discussed with you one single aspect of the killing of Oswald, is that right?
Mr.Armstrong. No, never did.
Mr.Hubert. What was the purpose of your visits, generally, then?
Mr.Armstrong. Oh, just, I guess to see how he was doing, to say, “Hello” and to send him messages that the girls had sent him and carry his mail down there if he had any addressed to him personally.
Mr.Hubert. How would you handle the mail?
Mr.Armstrong. I would give it to Mr. Decker.
Mr.Hubert. The sheriff first?
Mr.Armstrong. To the sheriff.
Mr.Hubert. Has anybody given you any money other than what you have earned?
Mr.Armstrong. No.
Mr.Hubert. You have had your regular salary all the time that you worked for the Carousel until it closed?
Mr.Armstrong. Yes.