Mr.Hubert. What was the name of the carnival.
Mr.Crafard. Happyland Amusements.
Mr.Hubert. Who was the owner of it?
Mr.Crafard. I am just trying to think of the name. I can think of the first name but I can’t think of his last name.
Mr.Hubert. Suppose you give us that.
Mr.Crafard. His first name was Bob. There were two brothers owned it.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay with them?
Mr.Crafard. I was with them for about 3 weeks. We traveled from Michigan to Memphis, Tenn. We played the Memphis Fair.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay in Memphis?
Mr.Crafard. We was there for 2 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. What was your next move?
Mr.Crafard. My next move was, while I was in Memphis I quit them and went to work for Leonard Wood who owned a trabant.
Mr.Hubert. What is that?
Mr.Crafard. It is one of the newest owned rides out, it is a German-made ride.
Mr.Hubert. Leonard Wood was his name?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; that was in Memphis, Tenn.
Mr.Hubert. And you joined him really to move, is that right?
Mr.Crafard. No. I made the move with a friend of mine.
Mr.Hubert. I understood that you were working with the circus or carnival operated by a man named Bob and his brother?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you quit them to join Leonard Wood’s outfit.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; it was better pay.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay with Wood?
Mr.Crafard. I was with them for, I think it was the last 4 days of the fair, about 4 days.
Mr.Hubert. Then you quit him?
Mr.Crafard. Actually I got fired from him. There was a girl there that kept hanging around the ride and we couldn’t get rid of her and everybody tried to get rid of her. She thought she was in love with me or something.
Mr.Hubert. So Leonard Wood fired you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And what did you do next?
Mr.Crafard. I traveled to Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. How did you travel?
Mr.Crafard. With a friend of mine, Mickey Spillane.
Mr.Hubert. Mickey who?
Mr.Crafard. Mickey Corday.
Mr.Hubert. How do you spell the last name?
Mr.Crafard. C-o-r-d-a-y.
Mr.Hubert. How did you travel?
Mr.Crafard. Traveled down in his car.
Mr.Hubert. Where is he from, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know where his home is.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know him prior to this time?
Mr.Crafard. I had seen him prior to this time and heard of him prior to this time.
Mr.Hubert. I mean it wasn’t a hitchhike?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I met him at the fairgrounds in Dallas, Tex., or in Memphis.
Mr.Hubert. Did you drive straight to Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. We drove straight to Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. Now when you arrived in Dallas, what did you do?
Mr.Crafard. I went to work with an outfit “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup in the Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr.Hubert. Who was that?
Mr.Crafard. Deke Miles and Bob Craven.
Mr.Hubert. Had you known them before?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. What date was that?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the date on that. It was the first day of the fair.
Mr.Hubert. It was the first day of what fair?
Mr.Crafard. The Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr.Griffin. This was in the fall of 1963?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How much money did you make with them?
Mr.Crafard. I made $5 a day.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed in the tent. I was night watchman in the tent. They had a lot of props and equipment in the tent.
Mr.Hubert. In the meantime what happened to your wife?
Mr.Crafard. I had no idea.
Mr.Hubert. To this day?
Mr.Crafard. To this day, I found out what had happened later but right now I have no idea where she is at.
Mr.Hubert. How long did she stay with your parents after you left?
Mr.Crafard. She was there with my parents for about 2 or 3 weeks and then she took a job babysitting. She stayed there for about a week and then she took sick I understand and was in the hospital for about 3 days. Was back with my parents for about a week and then they went to Dallas, Tex. She left the boys with my parents, was in Dallas, Tex., for 2 or 3 weeks, then she went back up home and picked the boys up and the last I had heard of she had went to Cuba, Mo., and left the boys with a woman there in Cuba, Mo., and was paying her to take care of the boys.
Mr.Hubert. How did you find out all this?
Mr.Crafard. This woman in Missouri wrote to my mother, that is how I found out she had been there and my mother told me what had happened when she was still with them.
Mr.Hubert. What is the last word you heard from your wife?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. What is the last time you heard anything about her?
Mr.Crafard. The last time I heard anything about her, had any news or had any knowledge of her whatsoever was about, on Saturday the 7th, March 7 of this year.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know where she is now?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Has she the children?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; she has got the children.
Mr.Hubert. When did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. I met Jack Ruby about the third day of the Dallas, Tex., State Fair, at the fairgrounds.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about how you met him.
Mr.Crafard. He was backing the—Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles, and he come out there to talk to them.
Mr.Hubert. Were you present when they spoke?
Mr.Crafard. I was out front when he come out there.
Mr.Hubert. Did he seem to know themor——
Mr.Crafard. He knew them. They were acquainted.
Mr.Hubert. They were acquainted?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You could tell that from the conversation?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, they just walked up to each other and shook hands and called each other by the first name.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the substance of the conversation?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly the conversation had to do with a twistboard exerciser that Ruby was trying to promote.
Mr.Hubert. Well, go ahead.
Mr.Crafard. And he was there for about a half, 45 minutes that evening, and it was 2 or 3 days later before I saw him again.
Mr.Hubert. Before you go on, would you tell us how long after you joined the fair did you first see this man Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. About 2 or 3 days, about 2 days after I joined the fair.
Mr.Hubert. That would be about 2 days after the fair opened.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And the second time you saw him was about 3 days after that?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so, yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was the occasion of seeing him the second time?
Mr.Crafard. He came out there to talk to Mr. Miles and Mr. Craven.
Mr.Hubert. Did you overhear that conversation?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what was the purpose of the conversation?
Mr.Crafard. I believe Mr. Miles—he had brought some props, a couple of prop chairs, some chairs used for props and a mirror used for a prop to be used.
Mr.Hubert. Jack Ruby brought that out to them?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was his interest in this fair?
Mr.Crafard. I had no idea.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any financial interest?
Mr.Crafard. He had some financial interest there.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr.Crafard. Mr. Craven had told me, we had been talking and he told me that Ruby had some financial interest in it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate what it was about, how much?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did Ruby put up money?
Mr.Crafard. From what I understood he had put up some money.
Mr.Hubert. How much?
Mr.Crafard. I have no idea.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear Mr. Craven or Mr. Miles talk about what percentage he might have in the interests of the project?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; whenever I was around Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles I was pretty busy working most of the time.
Mr.Hubert. And you lived in the tent all the time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any friends in Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. There was a few people that I know there.
Mr.Hubert. Would you name them?
Mr.Crafard. Well, at that time there was as far as I knew my brother-in-law, John Case, lived in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. He still did?
Mr.Crafard. And there was a few members of the church my wife and I went to still in Dallas there.
Mr.Hubert. Who were they?
Mr.Crafard. Brother Lee Cooksey and Robert Roskydall I believe it is.
Mr.Hubert. Who else?
Mr.Crafard. And that was about the only ones I knew around there right then. I met some people during that fair.
Mr.Hubert. As to these people you have named, how close a relationship did you develop?
Mr.Crafard. Just church members together.
Mr.Hubert. What church was that?
Mr.Crafard. General Assembly and Church of the First Born.
Mr.Hubert. Where is it located?
Mr.Crafard. Out North Dallas is all I can give you.
Mr.Hubert. Was this State fair project called, “How Hollywood Makes Movies,” a success financially?
Mr.Crafard. No; it was an absolute failure.
Mr.Hubert. You mean people didn’t flock to it?
Mr.Crafard. We went bankrupt, they went broke.
Mr.Hubert. You mean they closed before the fair closed?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; it was only open for about a week. I had heard rumors to the effect that Mr. Craven had wrote a lot of bad checks to start with.
Mr.Hubert. Were you paid any salary by them?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly about all I got from them was expenses. It was supposed to be $5 a day but about all I got was my meals and cigarettes furnished.
Mr.Hubert. You got money from them?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did it actually close its doors and stop operating before the fair closed?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; about a week, it only ran about a week.
Mr.Hubert. And the fair lasted how long?
Mr.Crafard. 2 weeks. When they left it was another outfit come in there with a dance band.
Mr.Hubert. When you say, “come in there,” you mean took over the space?
Mr.Crafard. Took over the space in the same tent.
Mr.Hubert. Did you stay with that outfit?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I stayed with that outfit.
Mr.Hubert. What was the name of it?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe they even had a real name for it.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us some of the people who were connected with it.
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see. I can’t even—there was Big Jess, he was one of the big shots around the State fair there.
Mr.Hubert. Was he a musician?
Mr.Crafard. No; he owns two or three rides on the fair grounds, permanent rides on the Dallas Texas State Fair Grounds.
Mr.Hubert. How was he connected with the organization that took the place of the other one?
Mr.Crafard. He took up the lease, the rent on the tent, on the space, and had this other outfit come in.
Mr.Hubert. The other outfit I take it was a band?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; musical band.
Mr.Hubert. How many pieces were there?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, I believe it was three- and four-piece band.
Mr.Hubert. How was it supposed to make money?
Mr.Crafard. Charged 50 cents to get in.
Mr.Hubert. You mean to listen to the music?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly listen to the music.
Mr.Hubert. What else?
Mr.Crafard. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr.Hubert. They had some what?
Mr.Crafard. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr.Hubert. You mean couples from the audience?
Mr.Crafard. At first and then they wouldn’t allow them to have couples on the stage from the audience any more so they hired a couple of dancers.
Mr.Hubert. Where did they hire them from?
Mr.Crafard. Girls around the fairgrounds.
Mr.Hubert. Did they get any from Ruby’s place?
Mr.Crafard. One of the girls came out from Ruby’s place.
Mr.Hubert. What was her name?
Mr.Crafard. Joy Dale.
Mr.Griffin. Dale?
Mr.Crafard. Dale. I don’t know her real name. Her first name was Joyce from what I understood.
Mr.Griffin. Would you recognize the name Joyce McDonald?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was her last name, yes.
Mr.Griffin. But her stage name was Joy, not Joyce?
Mr.Crafard. Joy Dale.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of a dance did she do?
Mr.Crafard. About all she done was worked out front. She would get out front and more than anything just stand around out there. She would come out originally to help this “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup. They used her as an attraction piece.
Mr.Hubert. Did Ruby bring her out there then?
Mr.Crafard. I believe the first time she came out there I believe Jack brought her out there and introduced her to Miles and Craven.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack have any interest in the second organization?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge, no. Except that he knew the man who was managing the setup there.
Mr.Hubert. And you have given us his name, I think already.
Mr.Crafard. Dusty was the name of the guy who was managing it. He was another carnival, carnie. He was managing it, Jess was backing it but Dusty was managing it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know Dusty’s last name?
Mr.Crafard. I can’t recall it.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he live?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know—let’s see, I think his home was somewhere in Ohio.
Mr.Hubert. Did he stay with the organization until the end of it?
Mr.Crafard. He stayed with the organization until the law closed them down.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that.
Mr.Crafard. The stage dancers got, the last day they was getting, pretty wild.
Mr.Hubert. You mean the last day of the fair?
Mr.Crafard. No; the last day they was open. It was 2 or 3 days before the fair closed, they were getting pretty wild.
Mr.Hubert. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Crafard. With their dancing; it was getting real sexy.
Mr.Hubert. It wasn’t a striptease, was it?
Mr.Crafard. No; more than anything they were using the “Dirty Dog,” and it can be made so filthy that it will almost turn a person’s stomach if they do it right.
Mr.Hubert. Do they actually use dogs in this dance?
Mr.Crafard. No; it is a dance called, “The Dog,” but they have got what they call, “The Dirty Dog,” too.
Mr.Hubert. How many girls were involved in that?
Mr.Crafard. There were two girls and one guy.
Mr.Hubert. One of those girls was the girl called Joy Dale?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. What was she doing at that time?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I know Joy was just working at the club, Carousel Club at that time.
Mr.Hubert. She wasn’t connected with the show at the fair?
Mr.Crafard. She hadn’t been out there but about one time after the dance outfit took over.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know the names of the girls on the stage?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember their names.
Mr.Hubert. Had they come from Jack Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr.Crafard. They met them on the fairgrounds. They put an ad and the girls contacted them.
Mr.Hubert. Did Ruby come around to that second thing?
Mr.Crafard. He was around a couple of times.
Mr.Hubert. A couple of times?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he stay very long?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I could notice.
Mr.Hubert. Who was he with?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly by himself when he came out there.
Mr.Hubert. How did you get to know him?
Mr.Crafard. Well, just a couple of times talking to him around the fairgrounds there and he gave me a free pass into his club any time I wanted to go in.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go in?
Mr.Crafard. Not until after the fair closed when I went to work for Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. How much money did you make at the fair altogether?
Mr.Crafard. Altogether at the fair all I made was expenses.
Mr.Hubert. As I understood you had very little when you got there.
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. So that when the fair closed you were just about flat broke.
Mr.Crafard. I was flat broke.
Mr.Hubert. What happened after the fair closed?
Mr.Crafard. Ruby hired me then to tear some lumber down, a stage he had had there at the tent. He brought the lumber out of it and he had me tear that down and clean it up.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, the thing had been closed for 2 days before the fair closed itself?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And I don’t suppose it reopened in any other fashion?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. How long did it take you to do the job that Ruby hired you for?
Mr.Crafard. About 4 hours all told.
Mr.Hubert. And this stuff was moved?
Mr.Crafard. Moved to the Carousel Club, downstairs in the Carousel Club where it was stored.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have anything to do with the moving?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; helped move the lumber and clean it up.
Mr.Hubert. Then your original employment by Ruby was for that job alone?
Mr.Crafard. When he hired me he said he had that for me that I could do and then he said I could stay, he wanted me to stay at the club that night, and the next day he talked to me and he had me stay with him.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about your arrangement with Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly, there was no set salary, any time I needed salary I put a draw slip in the till and take it out of the till.
Mr.Hubert. What were you supposed to do?
Mr.Crafard. Help clean the club up, work the lights on the girls on stage, answer the phone calls, answer the phone when he wasn’t there. Work on the bar if they needed me or anything like that.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you did almost anything you were asked to do?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live at that time?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed at the Carousel Club.
Mr.Hubert. What accommodations did they have for sleeping and so on?
Mr.Crafard. We had a room with a cot in it.
Mr.Hubert. Whose room was it?
Mr.Crafard. It had been at one time a dressing room for one of the stars he had in there, Jada, a stripper by the name of Jada.
Mr.Hubert. Was she there when you first went there?
Mr.Crafard. When I first went there; yes. At that time I slept in Jack’s office.
Mr.Hubert. Then when you first went to the Carousel you slept in Jack’s office?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was there a cot there, too?
Mr.Crafard. He had a couch in his office.
Mr.Hubert. When you first went there it was the day the fair closed or the day after?
Mr.Crafard. The day after the fair closed.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the date of that?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t remember the date.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay—strike that.
How long did you sleep in Jack’s office?
Mr.Crafard. For about a week.
Mr.Hubert. And then you moved into Jada’s room?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Or dressing room, that is after she had gone?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, after she had gone.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there until you left finally?
Mr.Crafard. I left the 23d of November, I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. What were your hours there?
Mr.Crafard. Any hours. I would just get up, I usually got up about 8 o’clock in the morning and I would be lucky if I would get to bed before 3:30, 4 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. How come you would get up so early?
Mr.Crafard. Get the club cleaned up.
Mr.Hubert. Wasn’t there a man to help?
Mr.Crafard. I took care of that mostly myself.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that stuff?
Mr.Crafard. Howard was a maintenance man.
Mr.Hubert. What did he do?
Mr.Crafard. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t do the actual janitorial work?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?
Mr.Crafard. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his assistant manager.
Mr.Hubert. Is that Andrew Armstrong?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.
Mr.Hubert. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?
Mr.Crafard. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the morning the club closed.
Mr.Hubert. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o’clock?
Mr.Crafard. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Then you went to bed?
Mr.Crafard. Then I went to bed.
Mr.Hubert. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?
Mr.Crafard. If I started cleaning up at 9 o’clock I would be finished by 11:30.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you had 2½ hours?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Were you then usually free?
Mr.Crafard. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3 hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.
Mr.Hubert. The club wasn’t open then, was it?
Mr.Crafard. No, the club didn’t open until 7:30 at night.
Mr.Hubert. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and that took 2½ or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone calls?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go to eat?
Mr.Crafard. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore catercornered across the street.
Mr.Hubert. And you say you just took some money out of the cash register for that purpose?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack permit you to do that?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn’t have done so.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. How much did it amount to?
Mr.Crafard. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with my cigarettes and what I ate.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?
Mr.Crafard. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about 3 o’clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was around the club.
Mr.Hubert. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after your cleanup job was over?
Mr.Crafard. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.
Mr.Hubert. Were there many phone calls to be answered?
Mr.Crafard. There was quite a few that would come in—generally, usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o’clock for reservations.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could handle the phone calls?
Mr.Crafard. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a reservation.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have to make notations about it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.
Mr.Hubert. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had called?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you were to do?
Mr.Crafard. Not unless it was—a couple of times he told me to feed the dogs or something like that—when he would call in, he would ask me if I fed the dogs.
Mr.Hubert. Where were they kept?
Mr.Crafard. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a storeroom.
Mr.Hubert. How many were there?
Mr.Crafard. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.
Mr.Hubert. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that change during the time you were there?
Mr.Crafard. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate and food and everything for the dog—to ship it.
Mr.Hubert. For a period then there were three dogs there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was that dog ever shipped to California?
Mr.Crafard. Not while I was there; no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what the man’s name was who the dog was to be shipped to in California?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what place in California?
Mr.Crafard. Los Angeles, I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. You had to check that to get the rates?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?
Mr.Crafard. Not as far as I—I am not positive I had seen him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?
Mr.Crafard. There was a couple of friends of Jack’s there from California while I was there and it might have been one of them.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know their names?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t remember their names.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when they were at Jack’s place?
Mr.Crafard. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week I was there with him.
Mr.Griffin. Were there—you say there were a couple of fellows?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Two or three or how many?
Mr.Crafard. I think they come at different times, I believe there was one guy come in one time and then about a week—3 or 4 days later another guy.
Mr.Griffin. But they were both there together for a while?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who came?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I couldn’t even identify him if he was to stand in front of me.
Mr.Griffin. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?
Mr.Crafard. He wasn’t there too much during the day.
Mr.Griffin. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack’s, a house guest.
Mr.Griffin. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?
Mr.Crafard. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don’t remember his name.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Griffin. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?
Mr.Crafard. More likely I was, but I don’t recall him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?
Mr.Crafard. No, I don’t; I saw so many people around the club.
Mr.Griffin. The second man who came, how long did he stay?
Mr.Crafard. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a row that he was in the club with Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Did he come at night or during the day?
Mr.Crafard. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at night but I didn’t notice him if he was.
Mr.Griffin. What did you pick up that his business might have been there?
Mr.Crafard. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see Jack.
Mr.Hubert. You never heard them conversing?
Mr.Crafard. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a habit to step back where I couldn’t hear the conversation.
Mr.Hubert. Why did you do that?
Mr.Crafard. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so, since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can’t hear the conversation that is being held.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else anything about either of these two men?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Hubert. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory now?
Mr.Crafard. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those two men?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Is that all?
Mr.Crafard. That is all I can think of causing the association.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a photographer at the club?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where that photographer was from?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall any—how long was this photographer there?
Mr.Crafard. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.
Mr.Hubert. Was his name Eddie Rocco?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about from California or were these two men different, from California?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall; it might have been. He might have been from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen,fellows——
Mr.Hubert. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club. They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they were there.
Mr.Hubert. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?
Mr.Crafard. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone calls and then they would leave.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know where they went?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Jack would go out with them?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you notice how long they stayed?
Mr.Crafard. I wouldn’t know how long they would stay with Jack. He might take off at 11 o’clock in the morning and wouldn’t be back all day.
Mr.Hubert. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with them?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall him doing so. He might have.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any recollection that having left with one of those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?
Mr.Crafard. I have no recollection of that either. He was—people would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or sometimes he would come back.
Mr.Hubert. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about these two men from California that makes their visits there still a part of your memory.
Mr.Crafard. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were in Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?
Mr.Crafard. Jack would usually call me in the morning.
Mr.Hubert. About what time?
Mr.Crafard. Anywhere from 8 o’clock on.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any other way of waking up?
Mr.Crafard. Not unless Andrew would come by.
Mr.Hubert. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so you might commence your work?
Mr.Crafard. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he got up.
Mr.Hubert. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?
Mr.Crafard. A couple of times Andy would call me.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How did you come to know him?
Mr.Crafard. Jack introduced me to him at the club.
Mr.Hubert. Was he there often?
Mr.Crafard. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I believe he was a business associate of Jack’s.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you find that out?
Mr.Crafard. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere, Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?
Mr.Crafard. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner all the time.
Mr.Hubert. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at random?
Mr.Crafard. No. Never knew when he was going to come.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I recall.
Mr.Hubert. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that the man had some property interest in that club or some financial interest?
Mr.Crafard. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.
Mr.Hubert. But you didn’t know about what?
Mr.Crafard. No, I didn’t know about what.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack keep any books?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of books did he keep?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax, regular books, business books.
Mr.Hubert. You mean ledgers?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who made the entries in them?
Mr.Crafard. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do all his bookkeeping.
Mr.Hubert. Who was that?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember who he was.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there during the day.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t know his name?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. He asked for the books?
Mr.Crafard. Andy give him some papers.
Mr.Hubert. Papers or books?
Mr.Crafard. Some of the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books together?
Mr.Crafard. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and they would do talking. It was usually during when—during the evening when the club was in operation and I would be out front.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Eva Grant?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who is she?
Mr.Crafard. She was Jack Ruby’s sister.
Mr.Hubert. How did you come to meet her?
Mr.Crafard. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.
Mr.Hubert. How often did you see her?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I saw Eva about four times.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get to know her as a person?
Mr.Crafard. Not too well.
Mr.Hubert. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?
Mr.Crafard. Just for a few minutes at a time.
Mr.Hubert. Did she have any interest in Ruby’s affairs?
Mr.Crafard. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.
Mr.Hubert. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?
Mr.Crafard. So far as I know; no.
Mr.Hubert. Jack never told you that she did?
Mr.Crafard. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack’s as far as I knew.
Mr.Griffin. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall was she, how heavy was she?
Mr.Crafard. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135 pounds, stands probably right around 5′6″, I would say.
Mr.Griffin. So she is not a heavy woman?
Mr.Crafard. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real nice-looking woman.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know her age?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. Do you know her age?
Mr.Crafard. No, but I believe she is Jack’s older sister.
Mr.Hubert. How did you get that information, from Jack?
Mr.Crafard. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.
Mr.Hubert. You have been to the Vegas, haven’t you?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.
Mr.Hubert. You worked there?
Mr.Crafard. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.
Mr.Hubert. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for Jack?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How did you get that information?
Mr.Crafard. Jack said she was managing the club for him.
Mr.Hubert. Were you there when she was there?
Mr.Crafard. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who was he?
Mr.Crafard. He was a friend of Jack’s he was with Jack quite often.
Mr.Hubert. Well, how often?
Mr.Crafard. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times a week anyway.
Mr.Hubert. You mean when they would come in at night or in the afternoon this man Senator would be with him?
Mr.Crafard. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.
Mr.Hubert. Can you give us a description of him?
Mr.Crafard. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5′4″, 5′5″.
Mr.Hubert. A very short man?
Mr.Crafard. Fairly short. Wasn’t much taller than Jack. He probably would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.
Mr.Hubert. Fat or husky?
Mr.Crafard. Kind of on the fat side.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have a limp?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he did, I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know anything else about the relationship between him and Jack?
Mr.Crafard. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. Were you ever at Jack’s apartment?
Mr.Crafard. I was over to Jack’s apartment on two different occasions.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see then any evidence that they were living together?
Mr.Crafard. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms and he told me that one bedroom was George’s room.
Mr.Hubert. Ruby told you that?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see George at the apartment?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Hubert. You only went there twice?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there for a few minutes and then leave.
Mr.Hubert. And you never saw Senator at the club—at the apartment?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack’s affairs?
Mr Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Did he work for Jack?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.
Mr.Hubert. What does working on the door mean?
Mr.Crafard. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the door.
Mr.Hubert. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?
Mr.Crafard. Bill DeMar was a comedian.
Mr.Hubert. Was he there when you were there?
Mr.Crafard. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.
Mr.Hubert. How long did he stay?
Mr.Crafard. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of a fellow was he?
Mr.Crafard. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life you can size these people up pretty well.
Mr.Crafard. I haven’t only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I have never been wrong in my life but once.
Mr.Hubert. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?
Mr.Crafard. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn’t strike me, I didn’t like him. I got along with him, I associated with him at the club but I wouldn’t want to associate with him as a close friend.
Mr.Hubert. What was there abouthim——
Mr.Crafard. He didn’t strike me just right.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think he is a fake?
Mr.Crafard. Well, I think 90 percent of him was fake, I would say. He was a fairly decent comedian but his way was “Big me and little you. I am everything and nobody else is anything,” was the way he struck me.
Mr.Hubert. He was there about how long?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he was there for about 2 weeks, I am not sure, between 2 and 3 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever get to converse with him?
Mr.Crafard. While he was there in the club I would speak with him, talk with him a little bit.