Mr.Crafard. I’m not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o’clock on the morning of the 25th, is that correct?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, it must have been about that.
Mr.Hubert. And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which you have referred?
Mr.Crafard. It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a half.
Mr.Hubert. Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant you got before or after daylight?
Mr.Crafard. It was before daylight.
Mr.Hubert. It was still dark?
Mr.Crafard. I walked about—where this guy let me off at it was about 5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was light to get a ride.
Mr.Hubert. I didn’t quite understand that.
The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you off before light?
Mr.Crafard. I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.
Mr.Hubert. Was it light when you got a ride with him?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so. I have lost some time somewhere between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn’t get into Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.
Mr.Hubert. At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let’s find out what time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you don’t know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; I didn’t get into Clare until, I think it was 9 or 9:30 at night. I’ve lost at least 8 hours of time.
Mr.Hubert. Of course I don’t know that you have because I don’t know what geography or distance we are talking about.
Mr.Crafard. The distance isn’t that great. It only is 15 miles from Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s start this way. What time did you get to Mount Pleasant?
Mr.Crafard. I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount Pleasant because it was 9:30, I’m almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when I gotinto Clare, because I went over to my cousin’s house in Clare. I remember that.
Mr.Hubert. It was before dark and before dawn when you picked up the driver somewhere approximately 6 miles on the other side of Lansing who took you into Mount Pleasant. Now, how long did you ride with him, and how far is it between the two?
Mr.Crafard. That is what I mean. I have lost some time earlier somewhere, because it is not that long a ride. I could have made it from Lansing to Clare and back again during the day.
Mr.Hubert. Larry, we want to get it straight.
Mr.Crafard. That is what I am trying to do, myself.
Mr.Hubert. If you want to figure out any place where you have made any mistake about thetime——
Mr.Crafard. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr.Hubert. We can start all over again. It seemed to fit as I went along, but I wasn’t aware of the distances.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask him this question: I understand you said that you walked through Lansing.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How long did it take you to walk through Lansing?
Mr.Crafard. About an hour, hour and a half, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. And at that time the cars were not running, the transit, the public transportation was not running, or were you out of money at that time?
Mr.Crafard. I still had money I have to eat on.
Mr.Griffin. Lansing is how far from Clare?
Mr.Crafard. Lansing isn’t over, I don’t believe it is over 225 miles from Clare to Lansing.
Mr.Hubert. It may be that you are making a mistake, Larry. Let’s see if we can’t refresh your memory from the time you got that last long hitch that took you to Mount Pleasant because you remember getting to Mount Pleasant at night, about 8:30.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that, you say, is a run of what—about 5 hours, 6 hours?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe it would take that long.
Mr.Hubert. So if you got there at about 8:30 at night, then either you didn’t get any hitches for a long period of time, or else something else happened.
Mr.Crafard. I’m just tryingto——
Mr.Hubert. Because you told us, and if it is not so, why we want you to correct it. Everybody can make mistakes.
Mr.Crafard. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr.Hubert. You said that you picked up this ride at a point 60 miles outside of Lansing and into Mount Pleasant prior to dawn on the 25th. Now, maybe that is wrong. Maybe you got that ride late in the day. Let’s put it this way. Was that a continuous ride straight on?
Mr.Crafard. It carried me straight on through to Mount Pleasant.
Mr.Hubert. Did you stop at all?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall. It isn’t that long a run across there.
Mr.Hubert. Did you stop for lunch or anything of that sort?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr.Hubert. And it is about a 6-hour run?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t believe it is that long a run across there.
Mr.Hubert. If you got there at 8:30 at night, and if you are firm aboutthat——
Mr.Crafard. I’m positive it was 8:30 or 9 o’clock when I got into Clare.
Mr.Hubert. I am talking about Mount Pleasant. You had no difficulty getting from Mount Pleasant to Clare, did you?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say an hour would suffice for that?
Mr.Crafard. Plenty, plenty of time.
Mr.Hubert. You got there between 8:30 and 9, that is into Clare, right?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s back off from there, then. Did you spend any time in Mount Pleasant before leaving for Clare?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. So that you must have left Clare about 7:30.
Mr.Crafard. I got into Clareabout——
Mr.Hubert. I mean left Mount Pleasant about 7:30, right?
Mr.Crafard. No; I left Clare—Mount Pleasant about 8 or 8:30. It was about 9 o’clock when I got into Clare.
Mr.Hubert. Did you start on your way to Clare immediately after this man left you off at Mount Pleasant?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And had you run directly through without stopping from the time the man picked you up and dropped you off in Mount Pleasant?
Mr.Crafard. That is right, 15 miles.
Mr.Hubert. 15 miles? No; I am talking about the runfrom——
Mr.Crafard. From Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr.Hubert. No; I’m talking about the run to Mount Pleasant.
Mr.Griffin. From Lansing to Mount Pleasant.
Mr.Hubert. A point outside of Lansing to Mount Pleasant. That is about a 4-hour run, you say.
Mr.Crafard. At the most, from Lansing to Clare.
Mr.Hubert. That last long hitch was about a 4-hour hitch?
Mr.Crafard. No; the last long ride was maybe 2½ hours.
Mr.Hubert. 2½ hours?
Mr.Crafard. Or 3 hours.
Mr.Hubert. And that was the man who brought you into Mount Pleasant?
Mr.Crafard. Mount Pleasant.
Mr.Hubert. Therefore, if you got to Mount Pleasant about 8, he must have picked you up about 5 in the afternoon.
Mr.Crafard. It must have been.
Mr.Hubert. Then there is some mistake in timing of about 12 hours.
Mr.Crafard. That is what I was saying. I’ve lost some time there.
Mr.Hubert. Perhaps it needs a little clarifying. Let me touch on another point.
Mr.Crafard. It seems to me I got mixed up on my routes going out of Oklahoma City.
Mr.Hubert. Think about it a moment and let me touch upon something else before we go back to it. I think you said that you heard that Ruby had done this on the morning of the 25th.
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, could you tell us how you heard it? Did you hear it by newspaper, radio, television, or what?
Mr.Crafard. I’m not sure whether it was over the radio or whether I saw it in the newspaper.
Mr.Hubert. Now, that must have made a terrific impact on you, because, after all, that was your boss.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So I suggest that if you will just put your mind to it, you can tell us pretty well how it was and where it was. Was it in a restaurant or an automobile?
Mr.Crafard. I think I saw it in the newspaper, saw something about Oswald and then the assassination or something like that, and then I read the rest of it.
Mr.Hubert. You bought a newspaper?
Mr.Crafard. I think so. I must have.
Mr.Hubert. Didn’t you keep it?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t believe so because I didn’t have one with me when I got into Clare.
Mr.Hubert. And it was morning?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; it must have been. It was about 8 in the morning.
Mr.Hubert. 8 in the morning?
Mr.Crafard. About that, somewhere.
Mr.Hubert. Were you with anybody, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I was walking through a small town.
Mr.Hubert. What was your reaction to it?
Mr.Crafard. It was pretty hard to believe.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell anybody about it?
Mr.Crafard. I think something was said to somebody I was riding with about it or something. Somebody picked me up shortly after I saw it, somebody I was riding with, and we had stopped in a cafe or something. I am pretty sure I discussed it with the person I was riding with.
Mr.Hubert. You are pretty sure now?
Mr.Crafard. The fact that I stated to him that it seemed almost impossible to believe. It seemed to be awfully hard to believe it.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell that person that you knew him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell that person that you had started to hitchhike up?
Mr.Crafard. I told him I had worked for him, that I had left the day after Kennedy was shot, coming up from Texas.
Mr.Griffin. What did he say?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall.
Mr.Hubert. Were you with that person very long? Was he the one, for example, who took you into Mount Pleasant?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr.Hubert. Now, let me see. I think you have refreshed your memory to some extent. You tell us now you are quite sure it was a newspaper.
Mr.Crafard. I am pretty sure it was.
Mr.Hubert. That gave you the first information.
Mr.Crafard. I still think that—I’m almost positive I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City somewhere, or just out of Oklahoma City.
Mr.Hubert. We will try to straighten out that route business a little later. You are quite clear that you arrived at Clare, Mich., about 9 o’clock?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Was that your destination from the start?
Mr.Crafard. My main destination was about Kalkaska, Mich.
Mr.Hubert. How far is that from Clare?
Mr.Crafard. It is about 3 hours running.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you stop on the night of the 25th, about 9 o’clock, at Clare?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed at my cousin’s at Clare.
Mr.Hubert. What is your cousin’s name?
Mr.Crafard. Clifford Roberts.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the address?
Mr.Crafard. 307 East Seventh Street.
Mr.Hubert. Were they expecting you?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. How long since you last saw them?
Mr.Crafard. At the time it had been, I think it had been, several years since I saw him at that time.
Mr.Hubert. How did you know they were there?
Mr.Crafard. They wrote to my folks while I was living in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. Wasit——
Mr.Crafard. Wait a minute; excuse me. I saw him before I went to work, before I went to work with the carnival. My sister told me where they was living at there.
Mr.Hubert. Did you intend to stop with him that night or just to visit?
Mr.Crafard. Well, I figured when I got in there at that time of night, I knew what the road to Kalkaska was—it was pretty rough overnight, so I figured I would stop. I would be perfectly welcome.
Mr.Hubert. Were you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did they recognize you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you talk to them about the Ruby matter?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. We talked quite a bit of it that night.
Mr.Hubert. What was the nature of the conversation?
Mr.Crafard. About the fact that I told them I had worked for him. It was kind of a surprise to them to know somebody who worked for him; asked me what kind of a guy he was, and everything.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell them?
Mr.Crafard. What I could, the best I could, what kind of a guy he was.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell them under what circumstances—did you tell them the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; told them how I had left.
Mr.Hubert. Did they express any surprise about that?
Mr.Crafard. No; because they knew me.
Mr.Hubert. They didn’t seem to be concerned about it?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Who was there?
Mr.Crafard. There was my cousin and his wife.
Mr.Hubert. Just the two?
Mr.Crafard. And their children.
Mr.Hubert. How old are their children?
Mr.Crafard. The oldest one, I think, is 7 or 8, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. No friends came over?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe there was anybody over that night.
Mr.Hubert. You did stay there that night?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you go to bed?
Mr.Crafard. It must have been about an hour and a half after I got there, 2 hours.
Mr.Hubert. And you slept through the night?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Did you remain there the next day?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I went on up to Harrison.
Mr.Hubert. Was that in the direction of Kalkaska?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; along the best traveled road.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you leave Clare?
Mr.Crafard. Probably about 9:30 or 10 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Did your cousin Roberts know your destination?
Mr.Crafard. He knew where I was going to go on to my sister’s.
Mr.Hubert. He knew you were going to hitchhike?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Had he been in touch with your sister, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe he had been in touch with her for quite a while.
Mr.Hubert. I mean, did he know she was there?
Mr.Crafard. She might have told her that he was living up there—I think mother told my sister where he lived, or something.
Mr.Hubert. What is the distance between Clare and your sister’s place in Kalkaska, is it?
Mr.Crafard. Kalkaska, about 100, 120 miles.
Mr.Hubert. Is that a rural community?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. No cities along that route?
Mr.Crafard. Well, there is one about 60 miles from it.
Mr.Hubert. What is the name of it?
Mr.Crafard. Cadillac. It is about 60 miles from Traverse City.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have enough money at that time to get a bus ride in?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. You had about $4 or $5 left, didn’t you?
Mr.Crafard. I had a couple of dollars left.
Mr.Hubert. $2?
Mr.Crafard. $2 or $3.
Mr.Hubert. Did you attempt to borrow any money from your cousin to take the trip?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did he offer to give you any?
Mr.Crafard. No; he was in no position to. He had a large family.
Mr.Hubert. Did you make inquiry as to how much it would cost?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. I think you said that you knew that that was a bad road for hitchhikers.
Mr.Crafard. At night, I said.
Mr.Hubert. It is all right in the day?
Mr.Crafard. Fairly decent road; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you make it that day into Kalkaska?
Mr.Crafard. I went up to Harrison that day and spent a couple of hours with an aunt I have in Harrison, and then went to Kalkaska.
Mr.Hubert. What is her name?
Mr.Crafard. Jean Eaton.
Mr.Hubert. Is she married?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is her married name?
Mr.Crafard. Eaton.
Mr.Hubert. I see. Do you know her husband’s first name?
Mr.Crafard. Ed.
Mr.Hubert. Is he living with her so that it is Mrs. Ed Eaton?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where does she live?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know the name of the street she lives on. They get their mail through a post office box.
Mr.Hubert. You spent a couple of hours there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you hitchhiked there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How far is Harrison from Kalkaska?
Mr.Crafard. About 90, 95 miles, I think.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get to Kalkaska that night?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall whether I went that night or whether I stayed with my aunt and uncle that night.
Mr.Hubert. We are talking now about Tuesday, the 26th of November.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember whether you got there Tuesday or Wednesday?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember sleeping at your aunt’s house?
Mr.Crafard. I have spent on several occasions, I have spent the night with my aunt and uncle.
Mr.Hubert. I mean on that occasion.
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember for sure whether I stayed with my aunt.
Mr.Hubert. I thought you said for a couple of hours there, and I was wondering whether you had slept there that night. You said you visited a couple of hours.
Mr.Crafard. I went up there, I got up there before the kids come home for lunch.
Mr.Hubert. Did you stay 2 hours or more?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I spent the rest of the day there.
Mr.Hubert. And slept there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so. Then I went up to my sister’s the next day.
Mr.Hubert. Did anybody—did your aunt and uncle have a car?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; he was working.
Mr.Hubert. You weren’t able to get a ride?
Mr.Crafard. No; not with them.
Mr.Hubert. You had to hitchhike?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t even at that point consider bus travel?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. So then you got to your sister’s house on Wednesday, then?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. About what time of day?
Mr.Crafard. It must have been about 2:30 or 3 o’clock in the afternoon, I imagine.
Mr.Hubert. She didn’t know you were coming?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. That is in Kalkaska?
Mr.Crafard. She lives about, I think about 20 miles out of Kalkaska, or she did at that time.
Mr.Hubert. So that when you got to Kalkaska you still had to go another 20 miles?
Mr.Crafard. About that, yes.
Mr.Hubert. That was a rural road?
Mr.Crafard. It was about—most of it was a well-traveled road, one of the main roads through the State.
Mr.Hubert. From Kalkaska to where she lived?
Mr.Crafard. It was then about two miles off the road.
Mr.Hubert. She lives off the main highway?
Mr.Crafard. She did at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Did she live in a log cabin or something of that kind?
Mr.Crafard. She was living in a farm house.
Mr.Hubert. Farm house. About 20 miles from Kalkaska?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; a little place called Mancelona.
Mr.Hubert. Mancelona?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. It is in County Antrim; isn’t it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell her about your experience?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was her reaction?
Mr.Crafard. Well, about the same as everybody else.
Mr.Hubert. Did she know about Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure whether she did or not. They didn’t have their radio or TV either, so I don’t know. I think they had heard about it, but I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. But, in any case, she didn’t know you had been working for him?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was it at that place that the FBI man interviewed you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What day was that?
Mr.Crafard. That is where he picked me up. He picked me up there on Thanksgiving Day.
Mr.Hubert. What time did he pick you up? Did he arrest you?
Mr.Crafard. No. They came out the house about 7 o’clock Thanksgiving Day.
Mr.Hubert. 7 o’clock at night?
Mr.Crafard. In the morning, and he had me go for an interview.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go?
Mr.Crafard. It was about 10 miles from there. It is a little town where the police station was. I don’t remember the name of the town.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know how they located you?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. Do you know how they located you?
Mr.Crafard. Well, they went to my aunt’s.
Mr.Hubert. How didthey——
Mr.Crafard. That is one thing I know.
Mr.Hubert. How did they come to go to your aunt’s?
Mr.Crafard. When I was in Dallas, I had got a letter from my cousin, and I had left the envelope laying when I left there. They found her address.
Mr.Hubert. You mean Roberts?
Mr.Crafard. No; my aunt’s niece, Mickey—my aunt’s daughter.
Mr.Hubert. What is her name?
Mr.Crafard. Gail Eaton.
Mr.Hubert. She is the one who lives in Harrison?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. She had written you or you had written her?
Mr.Crafard. I had wrote her, and then she had wrote me.
Mr.Hubert. The letter you wrote to her I don’t think you mailed.
Mr.Crafard. I mailed a couple of them. One or two anyway.
Mr.Hubert. I think you left one behind, didn’t you?
Mr.Crafard. I might have; I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what day they went to your aunt’s house?
Mr.Crafard. From what I understood, it was the night before they talked to me.
Mr.Hubert. And she told them, I suppose, that you were going up to your sister’s house?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And then the next morning they interviewed you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long did that interview take?
Mr.Crafard. About, I believe, 4½ to 5 hours I talked to the men there. That is when they took me back out to the house, and then he asked me to go into Kalkaska the following morning and meet him so he could take some pictures with a Polaroid camera.
Mr.Hubert. And he did so?
Mr.Crafard. He took some pictures, and I talked to him between an hour and a half and 2 hours again that morning.
Mr.Hubert. Did he go over with you the details of your trip up by hitchhiking?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe he developed that too closely.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI since?
Mr.Crafard. I talked to an agent last Saturday at my home in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. Other than that you have nottalked——
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. I think this man who had interviewed you, this FBI man who interviewed you in Kalkaska, had asked you to keep in touch with them?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How was that to be done?
Mr.Crafard. Dropping him a card or line letting him know where I was at to get in touch with me.
Mr.Hubert. That is if you moved?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay with your sister?
Mr.Crafard. I was there a couple of days. Then I went back down to Clare. I think I spent the night there, and then I was going to go to Florida, and I was hitchhiking, and this guy picked me up, and he said it was pretty nasty out, and he said it was too cold and nasty out to hitchhike. He said, “I have got a room over here. I won’t be using it tonight, and you’ll be welcome to use it, and then I will bring you back on the road in the morning.” I went out there with him, and he was working with an oil field drilling crew, and one of the men had quit, and they needed a man, so I went to work that night Then I worked up until, with them up until, about the 17th or 18th of February.
Mr.Griffin. Where was that?
Mr.Crafard. The main office was out of Mount Pleasant, Michigan. We were moving over the southern portion of the State of Michigan.
Mr.Hubert. Did you let the FBI know where you were?
Mr.Crafard. I wrote to them and told them they could contact me through the North American Drilling office in Mount Pleasant, Michigan. When I left there in February I went to Dallas, Tex. I was at the trial, and then I went outto——
Mr.Hubert. How did you go to Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. I hitchhiked.
Mr.Hubert. Why did you go to Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. It was on a personal matter.
Mr.Griffin. I didn’t get that answer.
Mr.Hubert. It was on a personal matter.
Mr.Crafard. I was trying to locate my wife and children.
Mr.Hubert. That was in February?
Mr.Crafard. Let’ssee——
Mr.Hubert. I think you said you worked for them until—we may be able to clarify that. I just want to hit the highlights right now.
Mr.Crafard. I believe I left in March.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask this question. What is the name of the drilling company?
Mr.Crafard. North American Drilling Company. I spent a week or 2 weeks around Clare there before I left. I believe it was in March, the latter part of April.
Mr.Griffin. You are sure you got that job by accident?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; it was purely accident.
Mr.Hubert. You stayed with them until February, as I understand it?
Mr.Crafard. I worked with them until about the 18th of February.
Mr.Hubert. Then you quit, or what happened?
Mr.Crafard. I had bought a rattletrap of a car, and we had moved locations, and I had car trouble. I was staying about 40 miles from where we was working, and I had car trouble and I missed out, I missed about five days of work, and in the meantime they got another man.
Mr.Griffin. This drilling company was drilling for oil?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when did you get the subpena to appear at Ruby’s trial?
Mr.Crafard. I got that in Dallas, Tex., at the courthouse, at the county courthouse.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your trip to Dallas was not for the purpose of attending the trial?
Mr.Crafard. No; not—mostly no.
Mr.Hubert. You say not mostly.
Mr.Crafard. That wasn’t my main reason for going.
Mr.Hubert. Had you been contacted by anybody to appear at the trial prior to the time you left the North American Drilling Company?
Mr.Crafard. Eva Grant’s sister had wrote to my cousin, Mrs. Eaton, wanting information as to my whereabouts so they could locate me.
Mr.Hubert. And she gave it to them?
Mr.Crafard. No; she refused to.
Mr.Hubert. But your cousin let you know?
Mr.Crafard. They told me about it.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do?
Mr.Crafard. Then when I arrived in Dallas, I went up to find out what it was all about. I didn’t know for sure what it was about.
Mr.Hubert. Who did you go to see?
Mr.Crafard. I went to the courthouse, and then I talked—the first one I saw was Andy. Then I talked to the lawyer, Mr. Phil Burleson, and he subpenaed me then.
Mr.Hubert. About what date was that, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. March 10, I believe it was; yes; it was on my birthday.
Mr.Hubert. Did it take you from the 18th of February or so to get to Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed around Clare for, I think, a couple—a week or two. It was, let’s see, it must have been about the 7th of March because I was only 3 days going from Clare to Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Your purpose in going to Dallas was to try to find your wife?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Did you succeed in that, by the way?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. You haven’t yet?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. When you saw Burleson then, he told you he wanted you to remain?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he place you under that subpena?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did they use you at the trial?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us roughly what the substance of your testimony was at the trial?
Mr.Crafard. To the effect that I had took the pictures of the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign and to the effect that he had only planned on shipping one of his dogs to California.
Mr.Hubert. That is all that was brought out?
Mr.Crafard. That was about the main gist of my testimony.
Mr.Hubert. You were a witness for the defense, I take it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Were you subjected to any cross-examination?
Mr.Crafard. I think there were two or three questions put to me on cross-examination.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get to talk to Ruby then?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see Eva?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And Andy Armstrong?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. Andy.
Mr.Crafard. I saw him before—I don’t believe I talked to him after I appeared on the witness stand.
Mr.Hubert. He was the first one you contacted?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; he was the first one I saw.
Mr.Hubert. In Dallas. Did you go over to the club?
Mr.Crafard. No. I went to the courthouse.
Mr.Hubert. And you saw him at the courthouse?
Mr.Crafard. Andy saw me; I didn’t see him. Andy saw me and he recognized me.
Mr.Hubert. I see. Who else did you talk to while you were in Dallas on this last occasion?
Mr.Crafard. I talked to the Grants, to the Rubys—the brothers and sisters.
Mr.Hubert. What about?
Mr.Crafard. I talked to them after the trial was over, after I had appeared on the witness stand.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t talk to them before?
Mr.Crafard. No. I think I had saw Miss Grant one time, and at the time when I did Burleson was standing right beside me when I spoke to her, let her know I was there.
Mr.Hubert. Did she know where you could be located?
Mr.Crafard. She didn’t know, but Burleson did. While I was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. Burleson knew.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. Burleson knew.
Mr.Hubert. She didn’t call you to locate you?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you in Dallas before you testified?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, I landed in Dallas on Sunday. I was in Dallas for about 4 days all together before I testified.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you in Dallas before you contacted Burleson or met Burleson?
Mr.Crafard. I arrived in Dallas Sunday, and I contacted Burleson Tuesday.
Mr.Hubert. And you testified on Thursday?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you left on what day?
Mr.Crafard. I think it was, I think I spent—let’s see, I left Dallas the following Wednesday, I believe it was. I went to California where I stopped and visited a very good friend of the family’s. I spent—I arrived there Thursday night about 2 o’clock in the morning. He had just got home from work, andthen I spent Thursday night, Friday, Saturday night there, and then I left there Sunday. They were making a trip up north, and they took me up north quite a ways with them, and then I hitchhiked up home.
Mr.Griffin. When you were in Dallas, Tex., where did you stay?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed at the mission most of the time.
Mr.Hubert. What mission is that?
Mr.Crafard. City mission.
Mr.Hubert. Where is it located?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it is on Ervay Street.
Mr.Hubert. You mean it is a religious organization?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Runs sort of a hostel or hotelfor——
Mr.Crafard. Place for guys on the road to stay.
Mr.Hubert. How did you manage for money on your trip from up north to Dallas, and Dallas on down west, and then again north to Washington?
Mr.Crafard. I had some money when I left Dallas, when I left Clare.
Mr.Hubert. How much did you have.
Mr.Crafard. $40, $50, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work at anytime after you left Clare?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, no; I didn’t work after I left Clare.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t earn any money during that period?
Mr.Crafard. No. I haven’t worked since about the 18th of February, I think it is, at a job.
Mr.Griffin. Who else did you see in Dallas beside the lawyers, Andy Armstrong, and the Ruby family?
Mr.Crafard. I saw the people around the mission, and I say, I did work 1 day in Dallas, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where, and how much did you make?
Mr.Crafard. I made about $7; I think I got about $7 out of it. It was out of the labor pool.
Mr.Hubert. How much money did you have when you got to Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. I was just about broke when I got into Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. How did you manage to live?
Mr.Crafard. That is why I said I stayed at the mission.
Mt. Hubert. It still required money for food.
Mr.Crafard. It is a place where they feed you and they give you a place to sleep.
Mr.Hubert. Did anybody in Dallas give you any money?
Mr.Crafard. After I had appeared, after I had appeared on the witness stand, Eva Grant gave me, her and her brother all together, I think gave me $8.
Mr.Hubert. $8?
Mr.Crafard. That is right; all total.
Mr.Hubert. What was the purpose of that?
Mr.Crafard. Money to eat on.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask them or they asked you?
Mr.Crafard. They asked me how I was living, and I told them, and I told them—they give me money to eat on, and I spent Monday, Tuesday—Sunday, I think Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night that I slept in the Carousel Club. They gave me the key to the club so I could stay there.
Mr.Hubert. Who did; Eva?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was the club in operation at that time?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. That was after you testified?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Had it been changed from the time you had seen it before?
Mr.Crafard. There had been no redecoration or anything. I don’t think they called it the Carousel. There was a Club de Copa or something, they had run it a little while, and then they revoked her liquor license.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But the interior of the club, did you notice any changes?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Was the safe still there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where was Andy; was he still there?
Mr.Crafard. No; Andy was working some place else; I have no idea where.
Mr.Hubert. When you left, did you return the key to her?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Ralph Paul or George Senator while you were there?
Mr.Crafard. I saw George Senator at the courthouse, that was all.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t see Ralph Paul or talk to him?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember seeing him. I know I never talked to him, and I don’t remember seeing him.
Mr.Hubert. Did you talk to any of the strippers or the waitresses who used to be there?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Think hard now. Was there anybody else that you talked to in Dallas outside of the people you saw in connection with the Ruby trial?
Mr.Crafard. These people that I saw around the mission there I talked to is all, and the police department. I asked them to put a tracer on my wife.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Mr. Case?
Air. Crafard. Case?
Mr.Griffin. Bob Case.
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. You just arrived in Dallas from Oregon, I think when you were served with these papers to come here?
Mr.Crafard. No; I had been home for a little while.
Mr.Hubert. How long?
Mr.Crafard. I had arrived there, I had been there, let’s see, I got in Monday—it would have been 2 weeks this last Monday that I had been home. I spent my time looking for a job since I have been home.
Mr.Hubert. You haven’t found any yet?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever been in trouble in your life in the sense of being charged with any offense?
Mr.Crafard. No; sir, I have got two times that I have been picked up, picked up on a vag charge.
Mr.Hubert. What?
Mr.Crafard. Vagrancy charge; Findlay, Ohio, and drunk in a public street in Dallas, Oreg. That is the only two times I have ever been charged.
Mr.Hubert. Were you actually prosecuted on those two cases?
Mr.Crafard. I paid a fine on the drunk on public street, and the other one I was just—I spent 72 hours in the jail and was let go.
Mr.Hubert. The police have not reported to you on the tracer on your wife?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. When was your wife last known to you to be in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Crafard. I didn’t know she was in Dallas. I had an idea she was around the Dallas area somewhere.
Mr.Griffin. When you left Dallas on November 23, did you have an idea that your wife was around the area at that time?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How did you come to believe that she was around the area?
Mr.Crafard. Well, I had wrote to my folks asking them for information, if she had been in touch with them, if they knew where she was, and I had a cousin who had been back out west and visited my folks and they told me, they was telling me, they had gotten a letter from this woman in Cuba, Mo., where my wife had been, so when I left Michigan, I went to Cuba, Mo., and I talked to the woman there and, as far as she knew, my wife had went back to the Dallas area, the last she knew of her.
Mr.Griffin. How long had that been?
Mr.Crafard. It had been, this was Christmastime.
Mr.Griffin. That is when the woman in Cuba, Mo., had seen her?
Mr.Crafard. That was the last time.
Mr.Griffin. Were the children still with the woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr.Crafard. No; the children was with my wife; she had the children.
Mr.Griffin. But you didn’t contact her brother?
Mr.Crafard. No; I tried to, but I couldn’t find out. Didn’t know where he was living or had no way of getting in touch with him.
Mr.Griffin. Had he moved from the last time?
Mr.Crafard. The last I knew where he was at he was working on a ranch, and I never could get ahold of the ranch. Nobody had ever heard of it out around Carrollton, and nobody had ever heard of the place. I knew he was there because I had been out there with him when he got the job, but I didn’t have any transportation, so I had no way of going out there.
Mr.Griffin. Well, you thought she was in the Dallas area. Where specifically in the Dallas area did you have in mind?
Mr.Crafard. There is a little place about 30 miles out of Dallas called, I think, Greenfield, or something like that, that I was told she was around. She had got a letter from her in that area in February.
Mr.Griffin. Who had?
Mr.Crafard. This daughter of this woman in Missouri.
Mr.Griffin. And did the woman, did she, show you the letter?
Mr.Crafard. She couldn’t find the letter, she couldn’t locate it. She put it up in some of her stuff and couldn’t locate the letter at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Did you check out around Greenville for her?
Mr.Crafard. No; I didn’t get out to Greenville.
Mr.Griffin. Did you contact the Greenville police?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell the Dallas tracer people?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That the last you had heard she was in Greenville?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You didn’t know until you arrived at Cuba, Mo., that your wife might be in Dallas, did you?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. So when you left Michigan on your way to Dallas you really didn’t have any idea that your wife would be in Dallas. You expected she might be in Cuba, Mo.
Mr.Crafard. When I left Michigan my destination was Cuba, Mo., as far as I knew. As far as I knew, my wife was in Cuba, Mo., or around there some place close.
Mr.Griffin. When you left Cuba, Mo., the only information you had about your wife was that she was somewhere near, might be somewhere in the vicinity of Greenville, Tex.?
Mr.Crafard. Around the Dallas area is what—she had got this letter from Greenville, and she was in the vicinity, as far as they knew, in the Greenville area of Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. The letter was not written by your wife?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; it had been written by my wife to this daughter of this woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr.Griffin. What were you told the letter said?
Mr.Crafard. Just, she just said, she didn’t say anything about what the letter said. She just said it had been wrote from Greenville, and that this girl had wrote back to my wife, and the letter had come back, nobody at that address, no forwarding address.
Mr.Griffin. What direction is Greenville from Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. That is out sort of the northeast of Dallas, about 35 miles.
Mr.Griffin. What route is that on?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure. I don’t think it is on a main route. It is, I think, on a smaller highway.
Mr.Griffin. Had you ever heard of this place Greenville, Tex., before?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I knew approximately where it was.
Mr.Griffin. How had you happened to hear of it?
Mr.Crafard. When my wife and I were in Dallas, I had worked for thisoutfit that built these portable buildings and they built some over in that area.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know of any friends your wife had in Greenville?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. This letter that the woman in Cuba, Mo., received, did it give any indication of how your wife was supporting herself or what her connection was with the party that she was staying with?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge, it didn’t.
Mr.Griffin. The woman in Cuba, how did she happen to be friendly with your wife?
Mr.Crafard. My wife was on the road hitchhiking when she picked her up with the boys. Her and her husband picked my wife up with the boys.