TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.
The general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.
Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.
When was this subpena served upon you?
Mr.Crafard. Last Saturday.
Mr.Hubert. I think that would have been the 4th.
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. The 4th of April.
Would you rise and be sworn, please?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Crafard. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr.Crafard. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr.Hubert. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?
Mr.Crafard. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. How old are you?
Mr.Crafard. 23.
Mr.Hubert. When precisely were you born?
Mr.Crafard. March 10, 1941.
Mr.Hubert. What is your present occupation?
Mr.Crafard. At the present time I am unemployed.
Mr.Hubert. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.
Mr.Crafard. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?
Mr.Crafard. No objection whatsoever.
Mr.Hubert. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?
Mr.Crafard. Unless it is of some use to you.
Mr.Hubert. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don’t want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don’t want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.
Mr.Crafard. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?
Mr.Crafard. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.
Mr.Hubert. Are they still living?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Are they living together?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where do they live?
Mr.Crafard. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any brothers or sisters?
Mr.Crafard. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr.Hubert. What is his name?
Mr.Crafard. Edward D. Crafard.
Mr.Hubert. Is he married?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Does he have children?
Mr.Crafard. Two.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t have any other address for him than that which you have given us?
Mr.Crafard. I can’t give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know what organization in the Army?
Mr.Crafard. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft.
I have three sisters.
Mr.Hubert. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?
Mr.Crafard. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.
Mr.Hubert. To whom?
Mr.Crafard. [Deleted].
Mr.Hubert. Where does she live?
Mr.Crafard. She is residing in Clare, Mich.
Mr.Hubert. Are they living together?
Mr.Crafard. He is in the “pen” right now.
Mr.Hubert. Penitentiary?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Which one?
Mr.Crafard. New Ionia State Penitentiary.
Mr.Hubert. What State is that in?
Mr.Crafard. Michigan.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.
Mr.Hubert. How long has he been in the penitentiary?
Mr.Crafard. About 7 months, I believe, now.
Mr.Hubert. What term is he serving?
Mr.Crafard. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Go on to the next sister.
Mr.Crafard. Norma Lee Crafard.
Mr.Hubert. Who is she married to?
Mr.Crafard. Owen Neal.
Mr.Hubert. N-e-a-l?
Mr.Crafard. N-e-a-l.
Mr.Hubert. Where do they live?
Mr.Crafard. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. Do they live together?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do they have children?
Mr.Crafard. They have two children.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Whatis——
Mr.Crafard. Alice LaLaine Crafard.
Mr.Hubert. What is her husband’s name?
Mr.Crafard. She is not married. She lives with my parents.
Mr.Hubert. How old is she?
Mr.Crafard. She is 17.
Mr.Hubert. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?
Mr.Crafard. I have one brother that died.
Mr.Hubert. What was his name?
Mr.Crafard. Gary Harold Crafard.
Mr.Hubert. How old was he when he died?
Mr.Crafard. Nine years old.
Mr.Hubert. When did he die?
Mr.Crafard. 1954, I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?
Mr.Crafard. Farwell, Mich.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live there after your birth?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.
Mr.Hubert. After those 4 years where did you go?
Mr.Crafard. Went to California.
Mr.Hubert. What part?
Mr.Crafard. San Joaquin Valley.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. Approximately 6 years.
Mr.Hubert. That is until you were about 10 years old?
Mr.Crafard. Ten years old.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to school there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How much schooling did you finish there?
Mr.Crafard. First four grades.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?
Mr.Crafard. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.
Mr.Hubert. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?
Mr.Crafard. We moved back to Michigan.
Mr.Hubert. What place, in Michigan?
Mr.Crafard. Clare.
Mr.Hubert. C-l-a-i-r-e?
Mr.Crafard. C-l-a-r-e.
Mr.Hubert. That is when you were 10 years old?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember it?
Mr.Crafard. I can remember going back; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live there?
Mr.Crafard. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to school there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.
Mr.Hubert. Then what happened?
Mr.Crafard. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.
Mr.Hubert. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?
Mr.Crafard. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.
Mr.Hubert. Same place as before?
Mr.Crafard. No; we moved to a little place called Plainview where I attended school for a year, Stratmore High School and from there we went to Oregon. I dropped out of school and enlisted in the U.S. Army, September 18, 1958.
Mr.Hubert. Now, do I understand you to say then that you had 3 years of high school education?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was that—were those satisfactory years?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I mean you have credit for those?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You lack 1 year to graduate?
Mr.Crafard. I lack about 6 months of finishing high school.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you enlist?
Mr.Crafard. I enlisted in Salem, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. And what assignments were you given?
Mr.Crafard. I enlisted in the antiaircraft.
Mr.Hubert. That is U.S. Army?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you get basic training?
Mr.Crafard. Fort Ord.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. I was in Fort Ord for 2 months and then I went to Presidio, San Francisco, where I was stationed at an air defense school for a period of 2 months and then I was assigned to D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.
From there I went to Germany in April of 1959. I was transferred to Germany to Deisley Kersne, and I was stationed with the D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion there. I stayed there until November of 1959 then I was transferred back to the United States where I was discharged November 10, 1959.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you serve altogether?
Mr.Crafard. Thirteen months.
Mr.Hubert. Is that the usual tour?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.
Mr.Hubert. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.
Mr.Hubert. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. General, under honorable conditions.
Mr.Hubert. You have a discharge reading general, under honorable conditions and you are now taking from your pocket a document which is a photostatic copy, I take it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; DD214.
Mr.Hubert. Of Defense Department Form 14.
Mr.Crafard. 214.
Mr.Hubert. 214. May I have a look at it?
Do you have any objection, Mr. Crafard if we have a photostatic copy of this document that you have just shown me?
Mr.Crafard. No objection.
Mr.Hubert. So that it can be part of the record and we will give you back the original.
Mr.Crafard. No objection.
Mr.Hubert. Now, what was the place of your discharge from the Army in the United States?
Mr.Crafard. Fort Sheridan, Ill.
Mr.Hubert. When you were discharged, where did you go?
Mr.Crafard. I went to Kalkaska, Mich., where I resided with my brother-in-law and my sister.
Mr.Hubert. Which one was that?
Mr.Crafard. At the present time it is Mrs. Ingersol. At that time it was Mrs. Richard Clair Tenniswood.
Mr.Hubert. She had been married twice then?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, then we had better get that information about her. Who was her first husband?
Mr.Crafard. Richard Clair Tenniswood. She had two children, two girls by him.
Mr.Hubert. How was that marriage dissolved?
Mr.Crafard. By divorce.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know the grounds?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure of the grounds, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did she divorce him or did he divorce her?
Mr.Crafard. I believe she divorced him. I am not positive about that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; I knew him very well.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know where he is?
Mr.Crafard. He lives at Port Huron, Mich., just out of Port Huron, Mich.
Mr.Hubert. What business is he in?
Mr.Crafard. Farmer.
Mr.Hubert. Has he remarried?
Mr.Crafard. He plans to remarry this summer.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen him recently?
Mr.Crafard. Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago. A little over that.
Mr.Hubert. About how long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed there for about, let’s see, I stayed there until the following spring, in April.
Mr.Hubert. That would have been April of 1960?
Mr.Crafard. April of 1960. Then I went back out home to Oregon.
Mr.Hubert. When you left the U.S. Army, did you have any money?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. When you left the U.S. Army did you have any money?
Mr.Crafard. Just what I got from my discharge pay.
Mr.Hubert. How much was that?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I had right around $400 all together.
Mr.Hubert. Is that all you had?
Mr.Crafard. That is all I had; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I mean is that all the property you had of any sort whatsoever?
Mr.Crafard. I had a few items of personal clothing.
Mr.Hubert. I mean you had no items such as rings or jewelry or things of that kind?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I never wear jewelry, rings.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have an automobile?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t own any real estate, I take it?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t have any cash but what you said?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Would it be correct to estimate that your total worth other than the cash you just mentioned at that time was less than a hundred dollars?
Mr.Crafard. I would say so; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, how long did you stay with your sister?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed with them for about 6 or 7 months.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mr.Crafard. In the pulpwoods.
Mr.Hubert. What does that mean?
Mr.Crafard. We were cutting pulpwood.
Mr.Hubert. What did that pay?
Mr.Crafard. It was piece work. We was making about $8 a cord.
Mr.Hubert. About how much would that amount to a month?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, man.
Mr.Hubert. Just an estimate?
Mr.Crafard. Probably right around $400.
Mr.Hubert. That would be net before taxes, wouldn’t it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you assist your sister financially for board and so forth?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; we was working together, my brother-in-law and I.
Mr.Hubert. What I mean was were you able to save any money?
Mr.Crafard. No; I didn’t save any money there.
Mr.Hubert. You did not. You stayed there about 7 months?
Mr.Crafard. About 7 months.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go then?
Mr.Crafard. Then I went back out home.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say where?
Mr.Crafard. To Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. At the time you made the move then from the home of your sister to Dallas, Oreg., how much money did you have then?
Mr.Crafard. About $150, enough to go out there.
Mr.Hubert. Is it fair to state that you had spent all the money you had earned by working plus a good part of the savings or the money you had received from the Army?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. So that upon arrival at your parent’s home in Dallas, Oreg., you had approximately $150.
Mr.Crafard. I was almost broke when I arrived home.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any other type of property?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Can you fix the time of your arrival back in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. It would have been in March of 1960.
Mr.Hubert. All right. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. My main residence then up until this last fall has been Dallas, Oreg. I have done a lot of traveling around.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do to support yourself from the time you returned to your parents in March 1960?
Mr.Crafard. I went to work in thefruit——
Mr.Hubert. In the fruit what?
Mr.Crafard. In the fruit, picking fruit. Then I went to work in a cannery. Then I was gone for a while and I worked with the carnivals when I was gone.
Mr.Hubert. I think we had better get some details about that. How long did you work with the fruit industry?
Mr.Crafard. Probably right around a month.
Mr.Hubert. That would have been in the spring of 1960?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then you went to the cannery?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work there?
Mr.Crafard. I worked there for about 6 months.
Mr.Hubert. What did you make there?
Mr.Crafard. I was making a $1.15 an hour.
Mr.Hubert. What did it net you before taxes by the month about?
Mr.Crafard. I would say probably right around $400 for the month.
Mr.Hubert. When did you leave your parent’s home?
Mr.Crafard. I couldn’t give you an exact date on this, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, would it be fair to say it was about 7 months after you arrived there from Michigan?
Mr.Crafard. It was in the spring of 1961. I believe, probably in April of 1961.
Mr.Hubert. So that in fact you were with your parents after you moved from Michigan to Dallas, Oreg., for approximately 1 year?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Of which time you say you worked about 7 months?
Mr.Crafard. I went to school for about 6 months out of it, about 5 or 6 months out of the year, I attended high school.
Mr.Hubert. Did you finish?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What high school was that?
Mr.Crafard. Dallas High.
Mr.Hubert. Oregon?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You were not earning anything then?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I take it that you left Dallas, Oreg., about April in 1961, is that correct?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go next?
Mr.Crafard. I went to California where I joined the carnival.
Mr.Hubert. What part of California?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, in Oroville, Calif., where I joined the carnival.
Mr.Hubert. Oroville?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What carnival was it?
Mr.Crafard. Royal West Golden Gate combined.
Mr.Hubert. Royal West Golden Gate combined?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What type of carnival was it?
Mr.Crafard. It was more or less about the general run of the mill for a carnival. Mostly rides.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “carnival” you are talking about a place where they have these rides for children and so forth?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How big a carnival was it, I mean, how many people were involved?
Mr.Crafard. It is pretty hard to say exactly.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do with it?
Mr.Crafard. I was working with the circus that was attached to the carnival.
Mr.Hubert. Animal circus?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. They all traveled as a group?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you with that, in that sort of a group?
Mr.Crafard. I worked that for about 3 or 4 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. That is all, 3 or 4 weeks?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. All right, where did you go to next?
Mr.Crafard. I traveled through Georgia where I joined another carnival in Georgia, Jerry Lepke Ten in One.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of a side show was it?
Mr.Crafard. He had the sword box, ladder of swords, fire eater, two-headed baby show, and a snake girl show.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do at that carnival?
Mr.Crafard. Roustabout and barker.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you with them?
Mr.Crafard. I was with Lepke for about a week.
Mr.Hubert. All right. After that?
Mr.Crafard. Then I went to Michigan.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. I visited with my sister and my brother-in-law again for a little while for about 2 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. Which one?
Mr.Crafard. Tenniswood. Then I went to Detroit where I joined a kiddyland setup.
Mr.Hubert. That is sort of a carnival strictly for children?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; parking lot carnival.
Mr.Hubert. About what time was that then?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was in the fall of 1961.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay with that organization?
Mr.Crafard. I was with him for about 2 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. Then what did you do?
Mr.Crafard. I went back to Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. When you got to Dallas what did you do? Oregon, I mean.
Mr.Crafard. I went to work part time at the Muir and McDonald Leather Tannery and then I went to work for Boise Cascade Valzets Division for the Boise Cascade Plywood. I worked for them until in June of 1962, June 10th, 1962.
Mr.Hubert. How long then did you work for them?
Mr.Crafard. For about 6 months, I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. What were you making there?
Mr.Crafard. I was making, I believe, $2.25 an hour.
Mr.Hubert. About what did it amount to by the month before taxes?
Mr.Crafard. About $400, $450.
Mr.Hubert. You were not married at this time?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Were you able to save money?
Mr.Crafard. I was spending my money just about as fast as I made it. I was traveling, paying for transportation back and forth to work, buying clothes. By that time I had bought a motorcycle or a motorbike, and I bought a few items, I bought a refrigerator for my mother or a dryer for my mother at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Now, we have some information that you worked for Federal Aviation Agency through July and October of 1960 in Los Angeles?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; in Los Angeles—I believe they were out of Los Angeles, where I worked for them that was over in Nevada.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work did you do?
Mr.Crafard. Surveyor’s assistant. I had forgotten I had worked for them.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us anything about your employment with Stewart-Hill in Berkeley, Calif., 1052 Dwight Way, Berkeley, Calif?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember even.
Mr.Hubert. That would have been between July and September of 1960?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember working for the Teer Plating Co., Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about it, please.
Mr.Crafard. I believe I worked for them 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. How much did you make with them?
Mr.Crafard. I was making a dollar and a quarter an hour while I worked for them. I believe when I left there my last check was either $65 or $85.
Mr.Hubert. Is that the first time you had ever been in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, I believe it was, I am not certain of that.
Mr.Hubert. That was between April and June of 1961, was it not?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so. The way I have traveled around, I had a lot of jobs I even forgot about almost.
Mr.Hubert. What was this Muir Co. you were talking about?
Mr.Crafard. It was a leather tannery.
Mr.Hubert. In Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Muir McDonald?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. At 111 Street. Is that Dallas, Tex., or Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. You worked for them for about almost year, with a couple of time outs, didn’t you?
Mr.Crafard. Altogether I worked for them about 18 months. But including the time I worked part time and I worked part time for them for a while while I was working for J. C. Tracy.
Mr.Hubert. What was J. C. Tracy?
Mr.Crafard. That is a cannery in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. So that during one period you were working two jobs—with Muir McDonald and with J. C. Tracy?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; I worked for Muir and McDonald an hour and a half, 2 hours, maybe 3 hours a week.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever work for Ablon Poultry Co.?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; that was after I was married.
Mr.Hubert. That was where?
Mr.Crafard. In Dallas, Tex. At that time I was residing at the Letot Trailer Park with my wife and family.
Mr.Hubert. When did you leave Dallas, Oreg., then?
Mr.Crafard. When I went to work there, you mean?
Mr.Hubert. You had gone to Dallas, Oreg., I think it was in the spring of 1961, wasn’t it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there really about 18 months, right, working for Muir McDonald?
Mr.Crafard. All together.
Mr.Hubert. When you left Dallas, Oreg., you were not married, were you?
Mr.Crafard. The last time I leftDallas——
Mr.Hubert. No; I am talking about the time you left in the latter part of 1962 or early 1963.
Mr.Crafard. I was married June of 1962.
Mr.Hubert. So your wife lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. For about 6 months we was living in Dallas, Oreg., from June 10 until I believe in December.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you married?
Mr.Crafard. I was married in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. Where was your wife from?
Mr.Crafard. Originally from Texas.
Mr.Hubert. What was her name?
Mr.Crafard. Her maiden name was Wilma Jean Case.
Mr.Hubert. C-a-s-e?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Had she been married before?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was her husband’s name?
Mr.Crafard. Donald Johnson.
Mr.Hubert. How many times was she married before she married you?
Mr.Crafard. Just the one time.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you meet her?
Mr.Crafard. I met her in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. When? How long before you married?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was in 1961.
Mr.Hubert. What part of 1961?
Mr.Crafard. In the spring, I believe, it would have been in March of 1961.
Mr.Hubert. You knew her about 15 months then before you got married?
Mr.Crafard. All told; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Were you working in Dallas at the time you met her?
Mr.Crafard. I wasn’t employed at the time I met my wife.
Mr.Hubert. How did you meet her?
Mr.Crafard. I met her at the Salvation Army in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. What was she doing?
Mr.Crafard. She was there with her husband Donald Johnson at that time.
Mr.Hubert. She was living with him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. When was she divorced from her husband?
Mr.Crafard. She was divorced in 1962, I believe, in April, I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. All the time you were living up in Oregon with your parents, did you see her or correspond with her?
Mr.Crafard. No; I hadn’t saw her for a year.
Mr.Hubert. You had not seen her for a year when you married her?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I had—I went to Dallas, Tex., trying to find her. From Dallas, Tex., I went to Las Vegas, Nev., where I got in touch with her and where we corresponded for a period of about 5 months.
Mr.Hubert. I gather from what you say that your interest in her as a person to be your wife grew up during this period?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly, yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And she agreed to marry you and came up to Dallas, Oreg., to do so?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did she work while you were living in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; she lived with my parents.
Mr.Hubert. And so did you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have any children?
Mr.Crafard. I have one child by her. She has a stepson, I have a stepson, her son.
Mr.Hubert. She had a son by the first marriage?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What is that son’s name?
Mr.Crafard. Don Johnson, Billy Don Johnson.
Mr.Hubert. How old is he?
Mr.Crafard. He is 2 years old approximately.
Mr.Hubert. He is 2 years old now?
Mr.Crafard. He was 2 years old in December. He will be 2½.
Mr.Hubert. And you have a child by her?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; Robert Johnson.
Mr.Hubert. When was that child born?
Mr.Crafard. He was born March 10, 1963—March 2, excuse me.
Mr.Hubert. When did you move to Dallas, Tex.—let’s take it chronologically. What happened after you left, where did you go after you left Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. I went to California, I left Dallas, Oreg., the first day of March 1963. I went to California where I spent the month, spent about 3 or 4 weeks, then I went to Dallas, Tex., where my wife was living. We had a reconciliation.
Mr.Hubert. Before you tell us about the reconciliation, you had better tell us about the breakup because I don’t think that is in the record yet.
Mr.Crafard. We—she had left me about 6 months after we married, and I stayed in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. So she left you about December 1962?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, Oreg., for about 6 months after that.
Mr.Hubert. She was pregnant then, was she not?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge, as far as I know; yes.
Mr.Hubert. The child was born in March of 1963.
Mr.Crafard. Well, I will tell you the truth, the doctor has some doubts himself so I couldn’t say.
Mr.Hubert. I mean she was pregnant when she left is what I mean in December. I think we are thinking about two different things.
Mr.Crafard. No. I believe we are thinking about the same thing.
Mr.Hubert. I am not asking you whether she was pregnant when you married her.
Mr.Crafard. No; I know that.
Mr.Hubert. I am asking you whether she was pregnant when she left you in December of 1962, because you have just told us that the child was born in March of 1963.
Mr.Crafard. I will put it this way. When the doctor was informed she had a child, her doctor was then informed she had a child, he was very shocked and surprised that she had had a child, and she was his patient in May of 1962. He operated on her in May of 1962. So in other words, there is some doubt as to the fact that the child was mine and actually there is a little doubt as to the child is actually hers.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I wish you would explain that latter part. How can there be some doubt that the child is hers?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t really understand it entirely myself. But the doctor that performed the operation when he was informed she had had the child he was very shocked and very surprised that she had had a child. He wouldn’t say any reason for being so but he was. But I took him—I had understood from him that she wouldn’t be able to have a child for about 2 years after the operation.
Mr.Hubert. What was the cause of your breakup?
Mr.Crafard. That, I do not know.
Mr.Hubert. You mean she just left?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did she leave any notes or anything?
Mr.Crafard. She didn’t leave anything. I went to work on Tuesday morning and come home Tuesday and she was gone.
Mr.Hubert. With her child?
Mr.Crafard. With the boy; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you attempt to find her?
Mr.Crafard. I put a tracer on her.
Mr.Hubert. Well now, when you say you put a tracer, what do you mean?
Mr.Crafard. I had the law put a tracer out on her.
Mr.Hubert. As a missing person?
Mr.Crafard. As a missing person; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get any reports?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr.Hubert. When did you next see her or hear from her?
Mr.Crafard. I heard from her in February of 1963. The latter part.
Mr.Hubert. In what way?
Mr.Crafard. She wrote to me and told me that she was going to have the baby, and then in March of 1963 I received a letter in California, my folks had sent down to me, from her saying that she had had the baby and would love for me to come see the baby if I wanted to. And I went to Dallas, Tex. And we had a reconciliation.
Mr.Hubert. What date did you arrive in Dallas, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, right around the 14th, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. Of March?
Mr.Crafard. Of March.
Mr Hubert. Did you have any money then?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have any other kind of property?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; just a few clothes.
Mr.Hubert. Is it fair to say you were, pretty broke?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr.Hubert. Where was she living?
Mr Crafard. She was at that time staying with her mother and father in Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. At what location?
Mr.Crafard. At Letot Trailer Park.
Mr.Hubert. How do you spell that?
Mr.Crafard. L-e-t-o-t.
Mr.Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr Crafard. On Lombardy Lane.
Mr.Hubert. Did you live with her then?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do, get another trailer?
Mr.Crafard. For about a week I lived there with her and her parents. I went to work at the Ablon Poultry and her parents moved away and then for a while her brother and her sister-in-law lived with us; we lived together for a while.
Mr.Hubert. At Letot’s?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is their name?
Mr Crafard. It is John Case, Mr. and Mrs. John Case.
Mr.Hubert. Where do they live now?
Mr.Crafard. I have no idea of their present address.
Mr.Hubert. When did you go to work in Dallas, Tex?
Mr.Crafard. About a week after I arrived there.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mr.Crafard. At Ablon Poultry.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work were you doing there?
Mr.Crafard. I was working in the hanging racks, hanging chickens.
Mr.Hubert. How much were you making there?
Mr.Crafard. $1.10 an hour.
Mr.Hubert. How much did that amount to by the month?
Mr Crafard. Probably right around $200, $225, right around there; I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. You were still living with your wife then?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What happened after that?
Mr.Crafard. I went to work at the Porter Building Co. in Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr.Crafard. Harry Heinz Circle.
Mr.Hubert. Is that the outfit called the Valley Office and School Equipment Co?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work for that company?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I did for a little while. It wasn’t very long.
Mr.Hubert. What about the Office Building Co. that you were talking about, how long did you work for them?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember, I don’t even remember working for the company actually.
Mr.Hubert. I am talking about the first one you mentioned yourself.
Mr.Crafard. The Porter Building Co.?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. I worked for them for about a month or a month and a half.
Mr.Hubert. After that who did you work for?
Mr.Crafard. We went to Washington, the State of Washington, to Mount Angeles or Port Angeles in the State of Washington.
Mr.Hubert. About when was that?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was in May or—it was in June, I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “we” you mean you and your wife and your two children?
Mr.Crafard. And my two boys.
Mr.Hubert. How did you travel?
Mr.Crafard. We went up by bus.
Mr.Hubert. Had you been able to save any money then?
Mr.Crafard. I had money when we left there, I had been able to save some then. We stopped in California and I worked for a while 2 or 3 weeks in California.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you work?
Mr.Crafard. With a carnival. Then we went on up to Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr.Hubert. Port Angeles?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. We was there for about 6 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. Until what date?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the date.
Mr.Hubert. Well, it was the summer of 1963, wasn’t it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was your wife still with you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; we were together at that time.
Mr.Hubert. All right. What was your next move?
Mr.Crafard. The next thing happened she left me again.
Mr.Hubert. On what date was that?
Mr.Crafard. I couldn’t give you a date on that either.
Mr.Hubert.Well——
Mr.Crafard. I can’t remember the dates too well.
Mr.Hubert. Well, it was the summer time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; it was in the summer. I believe it was in the latter part of August or the middle of August, I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Did she leave any note this time when she left?
Mr.Crafard. She left a note with some friends of ours in Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr.Hubert. What was the cause of her leaving, did she say?
Mr.Crafard. She didn’t say.
Mr.Hubert. Did she leave any forwarding address?
Mr.Crafard. She had went to my brother’s in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr.Hubert. Which brother was that, that is the one in the Army?
Mr.Crafard. Crafard, yes, sir; Edward D.
Mr.Hubert. How long did she stay with him?
Mr.Crafard. She was there about 2 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. Where did she go?
Mr.Crafard. He brought her up to my folk’s place, I went from Washington down to my folk’s place.
Mr.Hubert. That is Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. He brought her up to my folk’s there, in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have a reconciliation again?
Mr.Crafard. We tried a reconciliation. It didn’t work out.
Mr.Hubert. So what happened?
Mr.Crafard. So subsequently, about 3 weeks later, I left home, my folk’s place.
Mr.Hubert. You left her there?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. She had already gone?
Mr.Crafard. No; she was still there over at my folk’s place.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I mean, you left her there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I left her there.
Mr.Hubert. Judging by the time schedule you had mentioned that would have been around the middle of September, is that correct?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so; I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, I went to California. I went down on the coast and I worked for a Chinese man down there raising strawberries.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. I was there for about a week. And from there I went to Long Beach, Calif. I went to work on the new Playland down on Long Beach. I was there for about a month, I believe it was. Then I went to Barstow, Calif., where I went to work for produce out there.
Mr.Hubert. What was the name of that?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the name of that outfit.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Crafard. I was with him for about 3 or 4 weeks, I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. I take it that these jobs simply gave you enough money to live on and save up a little so you could move to the next place?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. All right. After that where did you go?
Mr.Crafard. I went to Michigan.
Mr.Hubert. What place there?
Mr.Crafard. Fife Lake, Mich.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live there?
Mr.Crafard. I was there overnight. My sister and brother-in-law, Ingersol lived there,and——
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed with them?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed overnight there.
Mr.Hubert. Then where did you go?
Mr.Crafard. Then I went to—down into the southern part of Michigan, I joined another carnival down there.