Mr.Paul. In the car.
Mr.Hubert. But let me see if I get this straight—if he was going to eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of thetrunk——
Mr.Paul. No; the bag.
Mr.Hubert. The bag—with the gun only?
Mr.Paul. The gun.
Mr.Hubert. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion?
Mr.Paul. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car.
Mr.Hubert. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But you say that there were occasions when he would take the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster, but in a bag?
Mr.Paul. But in a bag—so everybody thought he was carrying money.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if he ever owned a holster?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in his waist?
Mr.Paul. No, sir; I never did.
Mr.Hubert. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when he carried it in a bag?
Mr.Paul. In the bag.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in California?
Mr.Paul. Gruber?
Mr.Hubert. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r.
Mr.Paul. That name doesn’t sound familiar to me. I’ll tell you, Jack had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway. He used to introduce me and the name just flew by.
Mr.Hubert. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard, as he was called—do you know anything about him, that young man that was around the club for the last month or so?
Mr.Paul. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to sleep there.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr.Paul. Jack brought up so many—no; I never did talk to him, but I never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of weeks they disappeared.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack to bring in someone?
Mr.Paul. Take them home to sleep—a man that hasn’t got a place to live. I used to say to Jack, “Suppose he robs you?” He says, “So, he robs me.”
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie?
Mr.Paul. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in—not Vegas—what is the other place?
Mr.Hubert. Vegas is right.
Mr.Paul. Vegas—is he?
Mr.Hubert. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas?
Mr.Paul. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time.
Mr.Hubert. What was his business when he was here?
Mr.Paul. When he come—he used to go to golf places and bet on golf.
Mr.Hubert. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he a gambler in general—all sorts of gambling?
Mr.Paul. I think so—I never had any dealings with him either.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of Ruby’s dealings with him?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And stayed with McWillie?
Mr.Paul. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare—McWillie was running the gambling house down there for the—I don’t know what it was—Batista or some of their people—somebody else down there.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it?
Mr.Paul. Well, Jack told me.
Mr.Hubert. What did he tell you?
Mr.Paul. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a vacation.
Mr.Hubert. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation?
Mr.Paul. Just a vacation.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for Jack?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his. Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie. Actually—and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him when McWillie was around.
Mr.Hubert. You disliked McWillie?
Mr.Paul. No: but I didn’t care too much for his personality.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby?
Mr.Paul. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. What was his answer?
Mr.Paul. Well, he told me—that he thinks he is a great guy—Jack says. Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and Jack made everybody a friend and I haven’t got too many friends. I just work to make a living. I’m not interested in a whole lot of other things.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man who made a lot of friends?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. And you were one of his friends?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you had fewer friends than he did?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But you considered yourself one of his best friends?
Mr.Paul. Yes—Jack’s best friend.
Mr.Hubert. Both ways?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana?
Mr.Paul. A week or 10 days.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New Orleans?
Mr.Paul. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway—it wasn’t a straight flight.
Mr.Hubert. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not—what I wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you—that’s the way you would know.
Mr.Paul. I’m telling you that he did.
Mr.Hubert. That he told you that he went from here to Miami?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And from Miami down to Havana?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And on the route back, he came back through Miami?
Mr.Paul. Yes; I think that’s what he told me.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken?
Mr.Paul. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to—what are those Springs over there—Hot Springs—I think 2 weekends in a row.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made?
Mr.Paul. He went to New York.
Mr.Hubert. When?
Mr.Paul. Last year to see the AGVA president.
Mr.Hubert. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the Weinsteins?
Mr.Paul. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. I think that was in August, was it not?
Mr.Paul. No; it was earlier than August, I think.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year?
Mr.Paul. Yes—he went to—somebody told him about this strip down there.
Mr.Hubert. Bourbon Street?
Mr.Paul. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act.
Mr.Hubert. He went for what purpose?
Mr.Paul. To catch her act—to catch the girl’s act, so he could book her.
Mr.Hubert. He wanted to look at the girl’s act to see if he could get any talent to come up here?
Mr.Paul. The reason why—she asked for a lot of money.
Mr.Hubert. Who is that?
Mr.Paul. Oh, what is hername——
Mr.Hubert. Jada?
Mr.Paul. Jada.
Mr.Hubert. He went down to Bourbon Street to see if he could get any striptease acts?
Mr.Paul. That was the one he was sent to look at.
Mr.Hubert. He was especially sent for Jada?
Mr.Paul. This Earl Norman—the M.C.—was down there.
Mr.Hubert. Earl Norman?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and he saw her and he asked Jack to go down and see and get her, that she was going to bring him a lot of business.
Mr.Hubert. And you knew this because Jack kept you in touch with the things he was doing and he made a contract with Jada, did he?
Mr.Paul. Yes; she worked at the club quite a while.
Mr.Hubert. She brought in some money, as I understand?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and no. At first she was doing all right, and then she fell off to nothing.
Mr.Hubert. She quit, I think, before her contract was over?
Mr.Paul. Actually, it was a verbal contract—the last. You see, they had a contract to start with and then it became a verbal contract—she works as long as she wants to—as long as he wants to keep her.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the first contract was a written contract but of limited time, and when it ran out it was on a weekly basis?
Mr.Paul. On a weekly basis.
Mr.Hubert. During last fall, say from the time Jack came back from New York until November, do you think you saw him two or three times a week then? Or spoke to him?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think you are in a position to say whether or not he left town during any of those times during the period after he came back from New York—say, September, October, and November?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I don’t quite understand your answer—are you in a position to say?
Mr.Paul. He didn’t leave town.
Mr.Hubert. In your opinion?
Mr.Paul. The only place I know he went is New Orleans and New York, last year.
Mr.Hubert. And in your opinion if he had gone anyplace else, you would have known it?
Mr.Paul. I would have known it. In fact, I was the only one that knew he went to New York, but when he went to New Orleans everybody knew because that was another thing—that was no secret.
Mr.Hubert. And you are basing your opinion on the knowledge of his movements by the fact that you were in contact with him both in person and by telephone several times a week all through this period?
Mr.Paul. Almost every day.
Mr.Hubert. You would telephone one another?
Mr.Paul. What?
Mr.Hubert. You would telephone one another or see one another?
Mr.Paul. Yes—telephone mostly. In the last year, I think I used to go to the club twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, because all the other nights I was working.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, those were your nights off?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you went almost 100 percent of the time that you had nights off, Tuesday and Friday, you went to the Carousel and you would stay there all evening?
Mr.Paul. Well, I wouldn’t come until late anyway.
Mr.Hubert. You would come late and stay until it closed?
Mr.Paul. And then go for coffee or something to eat.
Mr.Hubert. And in other than those days you would get in touch by telephone?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was the purpose—just friendship?
Mr.Paul. That’s all—and, he had trouble with the Weinsteins and he always asked for advice. That’s why he used to call me all the time.
Mr.Hubert. The telephone records, as you know, show quite a number of calls between you.
Mr.Paul. They don’t?
Mr.Hubert. They do, and I was wondering just what those calls were about.
Mr.Paul. Well, every day he would find something else he would like to do—he would think of doing, or the union didn’t do right by him, the AGVA, or the girls didn’t do right—that’s why he called me almost every day.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he would call you if he had trouble with the girls?
Mr.Paul. If he had trouble with any of the girls, he would call me.
Mr.Hubert. If he had trouble with the one—with the Weinsteins, he would call you?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and the AGVA people—you see, they’ve got a board of directors and each one takes a part, and if this one doesn’t do right—that was almost consistently—he called on that.
Mr.Hubert. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr.Paul. On Friday—I was working. It was the lunch hour, you know, and lunch hour is our busiest hour. I’m always there on the lunch hour, and my landlord’s son called me on the telephone and told me the President was shot—they got it on the radio, and so I turned on the radio and then we all listened, everybody in the place naturally, because there was some excitement—people hollered and cried all over the place, and then everybody was listening to the radio to see what the result would be, and at 2 o’clock I went home, or a little after 2—generally I stayed until 2 o’clock on Friday. A little after 2—and when I got home Jack called me and he said, “Did you hear what happened?” I said, “Yes; I heard it on the air.” He says, “Isn’t that a terrible thing?” I said, “Yes; Jack.” He said, “I made up my mind. I’m going to close it down.” I said, “Well, I can’t close down, I’ve got an eating place.”
Mr.Hubert. And did he suggest to you that you should close down your place?
Mr.Paul. That’s what he said, “Ain’t you going to close?” I said, “No; I’ve got an eating place.” I says, “You can do whatever you want.”
Mr.Hubert. Did he discuss with you whether he should close down?
Mr.Paul. No; he didn’t discuss it. He told me he was going to close down.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you for how long?
Mr.Paul. Three days.
Mr.Hubert. That was at 2 o’clock?
Mr.Paul. Friday at 2—Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night.
Mr.Hubert. He was going to close up?
Mr.Paul. Friday night and Saturday and Sunday nights.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you why he had chosen those 3 nights?
Mr.Paul. Yes; in honor of the President being shot—he was heartbroken.
Mr.Hubert. I mean, why 3 nights instead of 2 or 4?
Mr.Paul. That’s what I told him. I said to him, “Are the other clubs going to close?” He said, “I don’t care about the other clubs.”
Mr.Hubert. Where was he calling you from, do you know?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know—he didn’t say where he was calling me from. He generally called me from a telephone booth or the club—not so much from his home.
Mr.Hubert. What would seem to be his condition when you were talking to him, emotionally and otherwise?
Mr.Paul. Very bad emotionally—he said, “I can’t believe it.”
Mr.Hubert. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know—if you don’t see the person, you can’t tell the person on a telephone how he reactsor——
Mr.Hubert. I mean, you have known him for a good many years.
Mr.Paul. Oh, yes; I’ve known Jack for so many years and he has always been that way, you know, reaction—fast—punch line—got to do this right away [indicating]. With him it wasn’t—he thought and did. It wasn’t a second thought.
Mr.Hubert. But you are quite clear that when he called you about 2o’clock——
Mr.Paul. That’s about a little after the time I got home—was a quarter to 3.
Mr.Hubert. And that’s the first time you had heard from him?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. The President was already dead?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And it was known he was dead?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything about Tippit?
Mr.Paul. No, sir; I didn’t know nothing about Tippit. I didn’t know nothing about Tippit.
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t tell you?
Mr.Paul. No; he didn’t tell me anything about Tippit.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, he said he had made up his mind he was going to close up the club for 3 days already?
Mr.Paul. Yes
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t ask you—he told you?
Mr.Paul. No; he told me.
Mr.Hubert. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. He did not?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long did that conversation last—about?
Mr.Paul. Three or 4 minutes—he says, “It’s a terrible, terrible thing.” Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me.
Mr.Hubert. That was about what time?
Mr.Paul. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know where he was then?
Mr.Paul. No, sir; he says, “It’s such a terrible thing that I’m going to go to synagogue.” He says, “Do you want to come along?” I says, “No; I don’t go to the synagogue, I’m not going to make a fool out of myself.”
Mr.Hubert. Did he go to the synagogue?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he go often?
Mr.Paul. For a year he went every—should I say—every day.
Mr.Hubert. That was after his father’s death?
Mr.Paul. That was after his father died—yes.
Mr.Hubert. That’s part of the Jewish religion that you should do that?
Mr.Paul. Yes; that’s true.
Mr.Hubert. And he followed that?
Mr.Paul. He followed that very closely.
Mr.Hubert. After that, did he go very much?
Mr.Paul. No; once in a while on holidays—he made it a habit of going on holidays to the synagogue.
Mr.Hubert. That’s the Jewish holidays?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But he didn’t go every week?
Mr.Paul. No—no.
Mr.Hubert. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the synagogue?
Mr.Paul. To tell you the truth, I didn’t—anything Jack does is no surprise to me.
Mr.Hubert. I’m sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn’t get that, did you get that?
TheReporter. “To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise to me.”
Mr.Hubert. But it was not his normal custom?
Mr.Paul. No; but he says he’s going to pray because a thing like that happened.
Mr.Hubert. All right, that, you think, was about what time?
Mr.Paul. About 6 o’clock in the evening.
Mr.Hubert. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes, too?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When did you hear from him next?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know whether it was that night again, after he got out of synagogue—I can’t recall. But, he didn’t call me again—I know—until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said, “Did you see my ad in the paper?” I says, “What paper?” Well, Saturday is a pretty bad paper, and I said, “What paper?” He says, “In the Times Herald and the News.” I said, “What didyou put?” He said, “That I’m closing down for 3 days.” I said, “That’s what you said to me yesterday.” He said, “But, it’s in the paper.” I said, “All right, I believe you.”
Mr.Hubert. You think that was Saturday afternoon?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night before?
Mr.Paul. No—I didn’t see him—no; when I saw him was Thursday night.
Mr.Hubert. You were at the club then?
Mr.Paul. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home.
Mr.Hubert. About what time was that?
Mr.Paul. Well, I didn’t feel too good that night, and I left home—I generally work until 1 o’clock in the morning. I left at 11 o’clock and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they told him I didn’t feel well, and he says, “What’s wrong with you?” And I says, “I’ve got a cold,” and then he told me that he was downtown and that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, “Well, if nobody is doing any business, I guess you had better close.”
Mr.Hubert. And what did he say to that?
Mr.Paul. Then he called me back one more time—I didn’t give you this before because I didn’t—then he called me back one more time and told me that he was over at his sister’s house, Eva’s house, and Eva was crying and they are both crying.
Mr.Hubert. This was Saturday night?
Mr.Paul. This was Saturday night—that was late. I said, “Jack, I don’t feel good. Let me go to sleep.”
Mr.Hubert. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the second call come?
Mr.Paul. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o’clock, and the second call I think was about 11:30.
Mr.Hubert. You had left at what time?
Mr.Paul. I left the place about 9 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Because of your feeling ill?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And he reached you shortly after you got there?
Mr.Paul. No, it was about an hour or so later.
Mr.Hubert. You were in bed already?
Mr.Paul. I was in bed already—that was the last time I spoke to him, I says, “Jack, let me go to sleep because I don’t feel well.”
Mr.Hubert. That was on the second call?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So, the second call was at what time?
Mr.Paul. About 11 or 11:30.
Mr.Hubert. The first call was about 9:30?
Mr.Paul. No; about 10:30.
Mr.Hubert. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after?
Mr.Paul. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20 minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so forth—it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been about 10:30.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, on the first call—he had called your place and found out you were not feeling well?
Mr.Paul. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn’t feeling well and he told me that nobody downtown was doing any business.
Mr.Hubert. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped, because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed, and that was about the subject of that conversation?
Mr.Paul. That’s—that was that conversation. That’s the subject, and then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister’s house and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the President, and that’s the last I spoke to him.
Mr.Hubert. You could hear her crying or he told you?
Mr.Paul. He just told me.
Mr.Hubert. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was crying, did he seem to be crying?
Mr.Paul. No; he wasn’t crying then when he spoke to me.
Mr.Hubert. He wasn’t crying then—in other words, what he was telling you was that he and his sister had been crying?
Mr.Paul. Had been crying.
Mr.Hubert. Was that all he wanted to tell you?
Mr.Paul. That’s all.
Mr.Hubert. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother you any more, would that be about it?
Mr.Paul. And I went to sleep and that’s the last I talked to him.
Mr.Hubert. Well, when was your next contact with Jack?
Mr.Paul. When he was in jail.
Mr.Hubert. When did you hear about the Oswald matter?
Mr.Paul. Sunday morning—I was—I had just finished making out the payroll.
Mr.Hubert. At the Bull Pen?
Mr.Paul. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl answered the phone and she says—he says, “Oswald is shot.”
Mr.Hubert. He said that to you?
Mr.Paul. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, “Oswald was shot,” so I looked up and I says, “So what?” I mean—just the regular coincidence. “So what?” 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the corner that knew me—he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named Howard something, came in and says, “Jack Ruby shot Oswald.”
Mr.Hubert. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What was that man’s name?
Mr.Paul. Howard something.
Mr.Hubert. That’s his first name?
Mr.Paul. Howard is his first name—I can’t think of the second name—he’s just a customer there—he used to work a long time ago at the Sky Club—I think he was—he used to be their cabinet man there, so I says, “Go away.” I says, “Wait, I’ll call the house.” So, I called the house and nobody answered.
Mr.Hubert. You called Jack’s house?
Mr.Paul. Yes; I called Jack’s house and nobody answered, so Jackson and his wife came in and said, “Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack Ruby shot Oswald.” So, I says, “All right”—that’s when I called Tom Howard.
Mr.Hubert. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know?
Mr.Paul. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting?
Mr.Paul. Well, you know—shooting—we didn’t think he killed him.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; I understand.
Mr.Paul. So, I says, “Tom,” well Tom has been my lawyer for the longest time.
Mr.Hubert. He has been your lawyer?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and Jack’s too.
Mr.Hubert. Jack’s too?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and I says, “Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I heard he shot Oswald.” He says, “Okay,” and that’s it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald had been shot?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know whether he did or not.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was not aware that Ruby had shot him?
Mr.Paul. No; I just told him.
Mr.Hubert. Did he seem to be surprised?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it?
Mr.Paul. No; he didn’t. He says, “Okay, I’ll take care of it.” Those are the words he said.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do andwithout indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could tell, he says, “I’ll see what I can do.” And that was the end of the conversation?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself?
Mr.Paul. Who—Tom?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Paul. No; I went down to his office anyway.
Mr.Hubert. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you went where?
Mr.Paul. Downtown.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go?
Mr.Paul. I went to the—John and I and the girl went down to the police station and I saw Tom Howard there.
Mr.Hubert. Inside the station?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Whereabouts was it, do you know?
Mr.Paul. It was right off the entrance to the—as you walk in—do you know where the entrance is when you walk in?
Mr.Hubert. From Harwood Street?
Mr.Paul. What?
Mr.Hubert. On Harwood Street?
Mr.Paul. No; it’s on Commerce.
Mr.Hubert. Not the basement ramp?
Mr.Paul. The basement ramp.
Mr.Hubert. You went through the basement ramp?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What time was that, about?
Mr.Paul. Maybe 1 o’clock, and so we meet him, and he says, “They won’t let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office. I think it’s on television.” So we walked over to his office and we watched television until about 3 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. That was Jackson and you and Howard?
Mr.Paul. No; not Howard—a girl Tammi True.
Mr.Hubert. Tammi True and you went to Howard’s office?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And Howard was there?
Mr.Paul. No; I was in the courthouse—he sent us over there.
Mr.Hubert. Howard sent you to his office to watch television?
Mr.Paul. Yes; to watch television.
Mr.Hubert. And he went where, do you know?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what he did?
Mr.Paul. No; he—some more lawyers they all got together and then they left again and they came back again and riding into town, that’s when we heard that Oswald was dead—died.
Mr.Hubert. When you got to Howard’s office, you knew he had died?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas corpus for Ruby?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. So you stayed there, you said, until about when?
Mr.Paul. 3 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Who is Tammi True?
Mr.Paul. That’s one of the girls that worked at the club before—she was an entertainer.
Mr.Hubert. Was she at the Bull Pen?
Mr.Paul. No; she lives in Fort Worth.
Mr.Hubert. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson?
Mr.Paul. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. Did you drive in her car?
Mr.Paul. No; in Jackson’s car.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and stayed until 3 o’clock?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then what happened?
Mr.Paul. I went back—went back home.
Mr.Hubert. The three of you?
Mr.Paul. No; I went as far as—we took Tammi back and then I let Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies.
Mr.Hubert. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And then came back to Arlington?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And left off Jackson?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in, I says, “Anybody looking for me,” to the cashier, and she says, “A reporter and a photographer was calling you.”
Mr.Hubert. That was at the Bull Pen?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies and I think you said you went to the Majestic?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you get there?
Mr.Paul. I got there about 4:30.
Mr.Hubert. Did you park your car some place?
Mr.Paul. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don’t have to have no parking.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show?
Mr.Paul. I stayed there about an hour—I wasn’t interested too much in the show, I just wanted to get away from everything.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you come out of the show?
Mr.Paul. It must have been about, oh, 6 something—I went back and I went to Jackson’s house.
Mr.Hubert. You went into the show about what time—4:30, you think?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out, about an hour and a half?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then, what did you do?
Mr.Paul. I went back and went over to Jackson’s house.
Mr.Hubert. That’s on what street and where?
Mr.Paul. That’s where I’m living now—Browning Street.
Mr.Hubert. And you went to his house—go ahead?
Mr.Paul. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so.
Mr.Hubert. Who was there with you?
Mr.Paul. The girls.
Mr.Hubert. What girls?
Mr.Paul. Jackson’s girls.
Mr.Hubert. You mean his daughters?
Mr.Paul. Yes; two girls; yes.
Mr.Hubert. And it was just the three of you?
Mr.Paul. Yes; they made me something to eat.
Mr.Hubert. And you got there about what time?
Mr.Paul. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering over at her house.
Mr.Hubert. You mean Eva?
Mr.Paul. No; Jackson’s sister, so we went over there.
Mr.Hubert. Her name is Mrs. Gable?
Mr.Paul. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two FBI men; that was 9 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Mrs. Bowman?
Mr.Paul. Mrs. Bowman?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Paul. Sure.
Mr.Hubert. Who is she?
Mr.Paul. She’s my ex-partner’s wife.
Mr.Hubert. Were you living with her at that time?
Mr.Paul. We were living together in a big house.
Mr.Hubert. On that date?
Mr.Paul. Yes; that’s way out in the country.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see her that day?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Not at all?
Mr.Paul. I don’t think I did—I might have seen her when I left the house.
Mr.Hubert. And what time would that have been?
Mr.Paul. Oh, in the morning.
Mr.Hubert. But you didn’t see her after Oswald was shot?
Mr.Paul. I don’t think so—I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot?
Mr.Paul. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed clothes—that’s what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson’s house.
Mr.Hubert. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of the club?
Mr.Paul. That Monday after the shooting.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack ask you to do so?
Mr.Paul. No, sir; I didn’t see Jack.
Mr.Hubert. Did Eva ask you to do so?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Well, why did you do it?
Mr.Paul. Personally, I don’t know—I just did it on the spur of the moment, and I have been sorry every day after that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going to do this?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask—well, weren’t you interested in salvaging some of the debt that was owed to you if you could?
Mr.Paul. If I could.
Mr.Hubert. That’s what I meant—that was why you did it?
Mr.Paul. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into—it turned out to be a lemon.
Mr.Hubert. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was owed to you?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the thing a success—whatever Jack’s interest was, it would be helpful to him, too?
Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind?
Mr.Paul. Well, naturally—Imean——
Mr.Hubert. I don’t want to put words in your mouth—if it’s not so, tell me.
Mr.Paul. Actually, it was on the spur of the moment that I did it, and I learned right away it cost me money.
Mr.Hubert. Did Eva object?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did any of his brothers or sisters object?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. And you actually operated it for approximately 2½ months?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And then why did you close it?
Mr.Paul. Well, maybe I would still be operating it—no, I wasn’t going to operate it any more. I told Eva, “I’m going to give you the stock,” and let herdo whatever she wanted to with it, because I couldn’t do it any more. The second thing is, I had a broken foot—I couldn’t make it any more over there. I was only coming up once a week, and the thing was shot, and then on the same day I decided to that, the liquor control board closed it up. They didn’t close it up, they sent me a notice that I can’t sell beer, so I might as well close it up.
Mr.Hubert. And it hasn’t been opened since then?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. You paid the rent and all the bills during that time?
Mr.Paul. When I was operating it?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you came out a deficit of about $3,000?
Mr.Paul. At least—maybe more—I paid the Government $1,770.
Mr.Hubert. What was that for?
Mr.Paul. Back taxes.
Mr.Hubert. Excise taxes?
Mr.Paul. Yes; it was for September, November, October, December.
Mr.Hubert. Is that excise tax?
Mr.Paul. Excise tax—that’s the cabaret tax, they call it.
Mr.Hubert. It doesn’t have anything to do with the social security or withholding taxes?
Mr.Paul. I paid them some of that too—there was only one person that was getting paid—all the entertainers got their own—they don’t go under social security.
Mr.Hubert. They are self-employed?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a woman by the name of Bertha Cheek?
Mr.Paul. What is her name?
Mr.Hubert. Bertha Cheek.
Mr.Paul. It doesn’t even ring a bell.
Mr.Hubert. Did Ruby ever tell you that just towards the end, in a week or two prior to the death of Oswald, that he was trying to borrow some money from her, and get her interested in opening a new cabaret?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Or doing something to the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. No, sir; that name don’t even ring a bell to me.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know her at all and he never mentioned her?
Mr.Paul. Never.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did he mention that he was trying to raise any money?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. I think perhaps you would be in as good a position as anybody else to tell us some things about Jack’s personal life. As you may know, there have been some rumors at least, that maybe Jack was a homosexual?
Mr.Paul. Oh, no—there was rumors?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, you have heard the rumors?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. We would like your opinion on that subject.
Mr.Paul. Oh, no—no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You knew the man a long time?
Mr.Paul. A long time.
Mr.Hubert. It is your opinion he was not a homosexual?
Mr.Paul. Positively.
Mr.Hubert. What was his relationship with women generally; do you know?
Mr.Paul. Well, he liked women.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have affairs with them?
Mr.Paul. Yes—just different times, different women all the time.
Mr.Hubert. Was he ever particularly attached to one?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who was that?
Mr.Paul. Let me remember that name again—mention some names, I can’t think of the name.
Mr.Hubert. Alice Nichols?
Mr.Paul. Alice Nichols—yes, I think they were going around together for about 10 or 11 years. I used to go out with them too.
Mr.Hubert. What was his relationship to the girls who used to work in his place, was it strictly a business relationship?
Mr.Paul. With the girls—strictly business. He would like to make a girl that would come up there, but not the girls that was working for him.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he wouldn’t try to date the strippers or waitresses?
Mr.Paul. No—we used to take them out for coffee after they got through, but that’s all.
Mr.Hubert. I would like to show you a picture, or rather several pictures which have already been identified, and I’m not going to give them a new identification number. I’m going to show you a group of five pictures, exact copies of which have already been identified in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibits 5300 A through F and ask you if it is not so that Jack Ruby appears in each one of those pictures?
Mr.Paul. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, there are two girls in there?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. One has blonde hair and is wearing dark clothes and the other is—has darker hair and is wearing a striped dress.
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Could you tell us who they are, referring first to the one with the blonde hair with the black dress?
Mr.Paul. Yes, that’s Kathy Kay.
Mr.Hubert. Who is the other one?
Mr.Paul. This is Alice—somebody—I don’t know the second name anyway.
Mr.Hubert. Alice Anderson?
Mr.Paul. Yes—I never knew her second name. She worked there.
Mr.Hubert. When did she work there?
Mr.Paul. Alice was a waitress or a champagne girl, what you call them, and she was the strip.
Mr.Hubert. Yes, Kathy Kay was a strip?
Mr.Paul. Kathy Kay was a strip.
Mr.Hubert. How long had the girl that you identify as Alice, to wit, the girl in those pictures with the striped dress, how long had she been working at the club?
Mr.Paul. Well, from the time he made a burlesque out of it, she used to work a couple of weeks, a couple of months, then quit and come back and work another couple of months or couple of weeks and then quit. She was never a steady girl.
Mr.Hubert. Is she married?
Mr.Paul. I don’t think so.
Mr.Hubert. Did he date her?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, are you positive or is it that you just don’t know?
Mr.Paul. That I know of.
Mr.Hubert. But I take it from the way you answered the question that you knew him so well that you probably would have known it if he had?
Mr.Paul. Yes—if he did I would have known.
Mr.Hubert. He would tell you that?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He told you about his affairs with women, is that right?
Mr.Paul. No; not always—he told me about affairs he wanted to tell me about, let’s put it that way.
Mr.Hubert. Were there lots of them?
Mr.Paul. Well, there were quite a few.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of a girl by the name of Joyce McDonald?
Mr.Paul. Joyce?
Mr.Hubert. I think her stage name was Joy Dale?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recognize her in the photo I am now showing you?
Mr.Paul. Oh, I recognize her.
Mr.Hubert. This photograph has been identified in connection with the depositionof Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibit 5301 A through E, and there are five pictures here showing a man and two girls—Jack Ruby is the man, of course; is that right?
Mr.Paul. I guess.
Mr.Hubert. And the girl on your right, as you look at the picture?
Mr.Paul. I’m not seeing it.
Mr.Hubert. I would like for you to identify both girls, but do so in such a way that the record can show it—in other words, when you say, “this” it won’t show up on the record, but when you say “this” you must say the girl on the left-hand side of the picture as you are looking at it—is that who you mean?
Mr.Paul. Yes; that’s Dale.
Mr.Hubert. That’s the girl called Joyce Day?
Mr.Paul. Joy Dale.
Mr.Hubert. That’s the one on the right-hand side of the picture?
Mr.Paul. Yes; the one on the right-hand side is—what do you call her again—that little girl up that went to court?
Mr.Hubert. Little Lynn?
Mr.Paul. Little Lynn.
Mr.Hubert. That’s Karen Bennett, did you know her as that?
Mr.Paul. No; I never knew her as that, all I knew her was Little Lynn.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what the relationship between this Dale girl and Jack Ruby was that you have identified in Exhibit 5301 A through E, the deposition of Andrew Armstrong?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know what Andrew knew, but I know nothing about her. I know she worked there—she was a stripper.
Mr.Hubert. So far as you know, was there any romantic relationship or sex relationship?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say “yes” and I wouldn’t say “no.”
Mr.Hubert. You just don’t know?
Mr.Paul. Anything I don’t know—I can’t say I know.
Mr.Hubert. That’s absolutely correct. I am simply asking you because you have been a friend a long time and as you said a moment ago, he told you some of the things that he wanted you to know?
Mr.Paul. Well; I don’t think he wanted me to know about any of the girls that worked in the club, even if he did have affairs with them—that would be—I probably would say something to him, but on the outside, I know a lot of girls that he had affairs with.