Mr.Hubert. I’m now going to show you a picture which has been identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her?
Mr.Paul. That’s the same Kathy Kay.
Mr.Hubert. That’s Kathy Kay?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with the white shirt, the very heavy man?
Mr.Paul. This one over here?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Paul. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see him there?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. You never did?
Mr.Paul. No—there isn’t a familiar face in there. What is he supposed to be? No answers [laughing].
Mr.Hubert. I will show you now two pictures that have been previously identified as Exhibit 5304 A and B in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, the first one showing a girl serving a man who is seated, and there is apparently a boy in the background, and I ask you if you can identify that place, first of all, is that the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recognize the place at all?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know who the girl is who is in the stripper suit?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know who the man is, sitting down at the table?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know who that bartender is standing at the back?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Mickey Ryan?
Mr.Paul. No—I might have heard the name but I never knew a guy with a name like that.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t recognize the man at the bar?
Mr.Paul. No—it’s not in the Carousel, that’s for sure. The Carousel had no cloths on the tables.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did it have a bar?
Mr.Paul. It had a bar.
Mr.Hubert. I mean, not for liquor.
Mr.Paul. No; that’s right—that looks like a private club.
Mr.Hubert. Were you familiar with the notebooks and memo books that Ruby kept?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see them at all?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I think that one of the girls in the club had a boy friend named Tommy, do you know who that was—Tommy?
Mr.Paul. The only real boy friends that I can give you the name of and she got married to the boy recently.
Mr.Hubert. Who was that?
Mr.Paul. He was in the police department, but I can’t think of his name. He made her give up the business and they got married and went to California, but you know, talking about boy friends, those girls have boy friends all the time—they are different boy friends—you never know which one is which. I can’t remember one name from another.
Mr.Hubert. Well, here’s what I wanted to get at—after you took over the club, you apparently hired someone to collect the cover charge at the front?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He was a gray-haired man, I’m told?
Mr.Paul. No, it was Leo Torti.
Mr.Hubert. [Spelling] T-o-r-t-i?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t have a gray-haired man there?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you get him, had he been there before?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He had worked there before?
Mr.Paul. Well, he didn’t actually work, he used to help Eva, and when Eva closed that place down he came to help there, but he never got paid for anything—just, I took him home and I took him out for a bite to eat.
Mr.Hubert. How old a man would he have been?
Mr.Paul. Forty or forty something—he isn’t gray. I’m the only gray man that was there.
Mr.Hubert. There was no gray man who was on the door collecting?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did Eva close up the Vegas?
Mr.Paul. Yes, she closed it up and then she sold it.
Mr.Hubert. When—before the Carousel was closed up?
Mr.Paul. Oh, yes, she closed it up right after New Year’s.
Mr.Hubert. Right after Ruby was put in jail?
Mr.Paul. No, right after New Year’s.
Mr.Hubert. You mean she sold it?
Mr.Paul. She sold it.
Mr.Hubert. Whom did she sell it to?
Mr.Paul. She sold it to two men and a woman that formed a corporation and bought it. It’s still called the Vegas Club—they’ve got it in the paper “under new management—Vegas Club.” I don’t even know who they are.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I handed you at the beginning of the deposition, or even before the deposition began, a number of sheets of paper, the first group numbering nine pages, purporting to be a report of an interview of you by the FBI agents Lish [spelling] L-i-s-h and Barratt [spelling] B-a-r-r-a-t-t, relating to an interview with you on November 24, 1963, running, as I said, for nine pages.
For the purpose of identification, I am marking the first page as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5319, Deposition of Ralph Paul,” and I am putting my name on the first page, and also writing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of every one of the other pages.
Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that document, now identified as Exhibit 5319?
Mr.Paul. What do you mean?
Mr.Hubert. Have you had a chance to read it?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Does it represent the truth as far as you know?
Mr.Paul. As far as I know.
Mr.Hubert. Are there any corrections you want to make or errors you want to correct in it?
Mr.Paul. Well, you asked me the samething——
Mr.Hubert. By referring specifically to Exhibit 5319, you see, is there anything in Exhibit 5319 that is not the truth as far as you know, in this document here?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Well, that’s why I asked you to read it, so you could tell me whether there is anything you want to change in there and you may take your time with it—I don’t want to rush you at all.
Mr.Paul. This page alone, or the whole thing?
Mr.Hubert. The whole thing.
Mr.Paul. I don’t know what I could change.
Mr.Hubert. Have you read it?
Mr.Paul. I think I did—in what respect are you asking me that?
Mr.Hubert. I just want to know if everything in there is correct, and to give you the opportunity of changing anything in there that is not correct.
Mr.Paul. Well, I told you the same thing that you asked me—that’s all here—I can’t change it in any way.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you can if it is not the truth, because all we want is the truth.
Mr.Paul. That’s what I told you—the truth.
Mr.Hubert. Well, are you willing to state, then, that the facts related, the statements made in the documents, consisting of nine pages which I have now identified as Exhibit 5319, are correct?
Mr.Paul. As far as I can recall they are correct.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have anything to add that document that you think of right now?
Mr.Paul. As far as I could tell, when they asked me those questions, I told them that was that.
Mr.Hubert. And this seems to be a true and fair report of the interview with you?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Is there anything you want to delete from that because it is wrong?
Mr.Paul. How is it wrong?
Mr.Hubert. Well, if it is not wrong, I would take it you would not want to delete it. That’s what I’m trying to do—is to ask you if there is anything in there that’s incorrect, because what we are seeking to get is the truth.
Mr.Paul. You think this is wrong?
Mr.Hubert. No, sir; I didn’t suggest it was wrong. I want to ask you—since you have had an opportunity to read it——Mr.Paul. Everything I told them at the time was the right thing—I told them.
Mr.Hubert. And that seems to be a fair and honest report of the interview you had with them?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, that’s all I wanted to know about that.
Now, there is another document which purports to be an interview with you by FBI Agent Clements.
Mr.Paul. On the telephone.
Mr.Hubert. On November 28, 1963?
Mr.Paul. Yes, over the telephone.
Mr.Hubert. Which I am marking for purposes of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5320, Deposition of Ralph Paul,” and I am signing my name on that document. That document contains only one page and itrefers——
Mr.Paul. To the stock deal.
Mr.Hubert. To some stock deal.
Mr.Paul. Let me see it just a minute.
Mr.Hubert. This document relates to some conversation with Special Agent Clements, which was had with you, and it is a report of it. Now, will you tell me—I think that that conversation was over the phone?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t believe the document so indicates, but if that is one thing we have learned from this is that that was over the phone—does it fairly state the content of the conversation you had with the agent?
Mr.Paul. Yes; he asked me what was my interest in the club and I told him I got a certificate of 50 shares, which I received from Jack Ruby because he wanted to protect the money I loaned him, that if anything goes wrong—well, he didn’t put it in so many words—he put it in a different—collateral—you know what that means—and he said, “Is that what you mean?” And I said, “I guess that’s what it is supposed to be.”
I told him that Jack Ruby and Slayton formed the Sovereign Club and it was called the S. and R., Incorporated. I never knew anything about the Sovereign Club, Incorporated, that it was then terminated and became the Carousel Club, which he gave it a name.
Now, I don’t know whether the Carousel Club was incorporated, and I said, “I think it is Earl, Ruby’s brother, that had the 500 other shares,” but I didn’t know for sure, that’s what I told him. He said he believes Earl, Ruby’s brother. I was confused with the question of whether I owned stock or not, which I was. I thought it was merely—he gives me the stock because, like I told you, when he wanted to sell the place he asked me for the stock so he could sell the place.
Mr.Hubert. Well, at the time you spoke to him, in fact you were confused as to what the situation was?
Mr.Paul. I sure was.
Mr.Hubert. What I’m asking you, is—is this a fair statement of what you told him?
Mr.Paul. I think I gave him a fair statement right up to the minute—not that statement—that statement isn’t up to the minute, but up to the time.
Mr.Hubert. But at the time—it was accurate?
Mr.Paul. At the time.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission before?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Mr. Paul, one final thing—we have the two statements that you have given to the FBI, and you have what you have told us tonight—do you think that putting those two things together we have just about all you know about Jack Ruby and about what he had to do with the slaying of Oswald and so forth?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know nothing about the slaying of Oswald—that’s for sure.
Mr.Hubert. I understand that, but we know all you know about it when we have what you told us tonight and this statement—there’s nothing else?
Mr.Paul. I just told you all I know about Jack Ruby for 15 years.
Mr.Hubert. There’s nothing we don’t know that you know?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Is that a fair statement?
Mr.Paul. If I knew any more I would be willing to tell you, because you didn’t pull the words out of my mouth either.
Mr.Hubert. No; that’s correct.
Mr.Paul. I spoke to you as I knew it.
Mr.Hubert. Have you anything else to add?
Mr.Paul. No—really, no.
Mr.Hubert. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your coming in and I am sorry it took so long.
Mr.Paul. Well, that’s perfectly all right.
Mr.Hubert. Thank you very much for coming in.
Mr.Paul. All right, thank you.