TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR
The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45 a.m.
Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Senator.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby.
Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you receive that letter?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is the date of it?
Mr.Senator. April 16, 1964.
Mr.Hubert. When did you receive it?
Mr.Senator. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was. What was the date Saturday?
Mr.Hubert. Saturday would have been the 18th.
Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the event that you did not get the full 3 days.
Mr.Senator. We will continue.
Mr.Hubert. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive it.
Mr.Senator. I waive it.
Mr.Hubert. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Senator. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Now will you state your full name?
Mr.Senator. George Senator.
Mr.Hubert. How old are you, Mr. Senator?
Mr.Senator. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.
Mr.Hubert. And when?
Mr.Senator. September 4, 1913.
Mr.Hubert. What is your present address, that is residence?
Mr.Senator. Right now?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.
Mr.Hubert. Is that your permanent residence?
Mr.Senator. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.
Mr.Hubert. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another place?
Mr.Senator. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do not know where.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home temporarily?
Mr.Senator. Temporarily.
Mr.Hubert. But your purpose is to live in New York?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place to live, move out from your sister’s house?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation, beginning actually with your education.
Mr.Senator. My education was up to the eighth grade.
Mr.Hubert. And where was that?
Mr.Senator. Gloversville, N.Y.
Mr.Hubert. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?
Mr.Senator. I moved to New York and went to work.
Mr.Hubert. You mean New York City?
Mr.Senator. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I moved in with my sister at that time.
Mr.Hubert. That is the same sister you are now living with?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is her name, by the way?
Mr.Senator. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live with her?
Mr.Senator. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was only in my teens then.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of work did you do?
Mr.Senator. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.
Mr.Hubert. And you continued in thatoccupation——
Mr.Senator. Just in my young teens.
Mr.Hubert. Until you were how old?
Mr.Senator. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. You were living with your sister as you said?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of occupation and residence?
Mr.Senator. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance, was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had peritonitis. I went back home again.
Mr.Hubert. This was after age 18 or before?
Mr.Senator. No; this is now after 18.
Mr.Hubert. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or 2 yearsyou were not working because of illness and you were staying mostly with your mother at home?
Mr.Senator. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.
Mr.Hubert. Where? What place was that?
Mr.Senator. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his last name.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work with him?
Mr.Senator. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. At which time you lived with your mother?
Mr.Senator. Yes, I lived home.
Mr.Hubert. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?
Mr.Senator. I would say around there, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then what happened after those days of your life?
Mr.Senator. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I went back to New York.
Mr.Hubert. City, you mean?
Mr.Senator. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live during that period?
Mr.Senator. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled either from my sister to my mother.
Mr.Hubert. You did not have any residence of your own?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Where did she live during that period?
Mr.Senator. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.
Mr.Hubert. I mean the same address?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say whenyou——
Mr.Senator. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think of the numbers.
Mr.Hubert. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.
Mr.Senator. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.
Mr.Hubert. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?
Mr.Senator. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.
Mr.Hubert. Where did she live then?
Mr.Senator. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets, you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks, something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now. I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright.
Mr.Hubert. We understand that and we understand therefore that your answers must be approximations.
Mr.Senator. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the 1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.
Mr.Hubert. That was around 1938, I take it?
Mr.Senator. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the place at which you worked?
Mr.Senator. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand Concourse.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years. Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then we come back again.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Or employers?
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many years.
Mr.Hubert. Who were the other two people that you went with?
Mr.Senator. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I can’t remember his name.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or 20 years?
Mr.Senator. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As a matter of fact, I think even before the war.
Mr.Hubert. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And the other one?
Mr.Senator. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work is he doing?
Mr.Senator. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean. He was.
Mr.Hubert. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how, that is 6 years ago?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down there for a vacation there.
Mr.Hubert. And you looked him up?
Mr.Senator. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him he was in the stationery end.
Mr.Hubert. How extended was your visit with him then?
Mr.Senator. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two or three times.
Mr.Hubert. No business relations?
Mr.Senator. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I went back to New York.
Mr.Hubert. And tell usagain——
Mr.Senator. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at various times.
Mr.Hubert. Your brother?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is his name?
Mr.Senator. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I worked on and off at his place many times.
Mr.Hubert. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were working for your brother?
Mr.Senator. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany, N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?
Mr.Senator. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square Cafeteria.
Mr.Hubert. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?
Mr.Senator. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be possible.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. When did you enlist?
Mr.Senator. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.
Mr.Hubert. That was before Pearl Harbor then?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the summer of 1940?
Mr.Senator. What is that?
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until you entered into the service in August of 1941?
Mr.Senator. I believe I was back home with my brother.
Mr.Hubert. That is working for him?
Mr.Senator. The restaurant, yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay in the service?
Mr.Senator. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it.
Mr.Hubert. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated copy.
Mr.Senator. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original and I am happy that I have got that.
Mr.Hubert. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center, Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?
Mr.Senator. Yes; when I came out.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Then after you left the service in September of 1945, where did you go and what did you do?
Mr.Senator. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost our shirts.
Mr.Hubert. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the Denise Foods, Inc.?
Mr.Senator. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?
Mr.Hubert. 254 West 35th Street.
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That is why I asked you.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and this man you talked about?
Mr.Senator. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.
Mr.Hubert. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of 1946?
Mr.Senator. I would say approximately about that to the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. And where did you live then?
Mr.Senator. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married before that or after that.
Mr.Hubert. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you got married?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not mistaken.
Mr.Hubert. What was the name of the lady you married?
Mr.Senator. Sherley Baren.
Mr.Hubert. How do you spell that?
Mr.Senator. B-a-r-e-n.
Mr.Hubert. Are you still married to her?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Are you divorced?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When? Approximately.
Mr.Senator. Approximately about 7 years.
Mr.Hubert. Ago?
Mr.Senator. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say approximately about that.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you lived together as man and wife approximately for 10 years?
Mr.Senator. No, no.
Mr.Hubert. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long. Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.
Mr.Senator. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.
Mr.Hubert. Before the divorce?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I think that is it.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any children of that marriage?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.
Mr.Hubert. He is now 16 years old?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is his name?
Mr.Senator. Bobby.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you divorced?
Mr.Senator. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.
Mr.Hubert. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?
Mr.Senator. In Miami.
Mr.Hubert. She brought the divorce suit?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Has she remarried?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know to whom?
Mr.Senator. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know where they live?
Mr.Senator. Coral Gables.
Mr.Hubert. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?
Mr.Senator. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs there.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Senator. At these jobs, do you mean?
Mr.Hubert. No.
Mr.Senator. Or Miami?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a rough guess, something like that, offhand.
Mr.Hubert. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got there; is that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work did you do?
Mr.Senator. Restaurant-type work.
Mr.Hubert. I notice that your social security records indicate that you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year. Can you explain that?
Mr.Senator. 1947 and 1948?
Mr.Hubert. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and secondquarters——
Mr.Senator. Of 1948?
Mr.Hubert. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of 1948 there were no earnings reported.
Mr.Senator. 1947 and 1948?
Mr.Hubert. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H.
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January, February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.
Mr.Senator. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That was an open stand on the oceanfront.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the first 6 months?
Mr.Senator. At the Hensroost?
Mr.Hubert. Of 1947.
Mr.Senator. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I know that I worked there.
Mr.Hubert. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the intervening year that I would like to have you cover.
Mr.Senator. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that was.
Mr.Hubert. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory. Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year, but I remember going, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I went there for one summer.
Mr.Hubert. For the season?
Mr.Senator. The season; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Your wife went with you?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. She stayed in Miami?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When you finished the season there, what happened?
Mr.Senator. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year was that, 1940-what?
Mr.Hubert. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate that you worked for T-A Troops.
Mr.Senator. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long? Do you remember?
Mr.Senator. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?
Mr.Senator. Northwest Fourth Terrace.
Mr.Hubert. Miami Beach?
Mr.Senator. No; Miami.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. On Collins Avenue?
Mr.Senator. That is right; yes.
Mr.Hubert. You lived in Miami City itself?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Were you living with your wife then?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall what your next move was?
Mr.Senator. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right.
Mr.Hubert. Women’s apparel?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because apparently you did?
Mr.Senator. You mean when I went to Texas?
Mr.Hubert. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas, did you?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure.
Mr.Hubert. You did?
Mr.Senator. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.
Mr.Hubert. So you moved to Texas in 1954?
Mr.Senator. May of 1954.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?
Mr.Senator. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948?
Mr.Hubert. The social security records indicate 1951.
Mr.Senator. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be 1951.
Mr.Hubert. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you live in Milwaukee?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. And in Chicago?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. In otherwords——
Mr.Senator. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when they called the people in for sales meetings.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you living then?
Mr.Senator. In Miami.
Mr.Hubert. That same residence?
Mr.Senator. Northwest Fourth Terrace?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was your area, sales area?
Mr.Senator. Florida.
Mr.Hubert. Just Florida?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You sold women’s apparel?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Wholesale?
Mr.Senator. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.
Mr.Hubert. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as 144 East Flagler in Miami.
Mr.Senator. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.
Mr.Hubert. Were you working for both?
Mr.Senator. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the Christmas holidays only.
Mr.Hubert. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?
Mr.Senator. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something like that.
Mr.Hubert. These records also indicate that actually you worked for Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?
Mr.Senator. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that.
Mr.Senator. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex., and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t imagine what he wascalling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you remember the year, the month?
Mr.Senator. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.
Mr.Hubert. 1954?
Mr.Senator. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10 years I have been there.
Mr.Hubert. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in May of 1954, on a Friday?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Actually, May 15, I think you said.
Mr.Senator. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.
Mr.Hubert. Did your wife go with you?
Mr.Senator. No; she wouldn’t go.
Mr.Hubert. Had you been living together up to that time?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was that the cause of your separation?
Mr.Senator. I believe that is.
Mr.Hubert. She never did go to Dallas?
Mr.Senator. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.
Mr.Hubert. She kept the child?
Mr.Senator. She kept the child.
Mr.Hubert. And still has it?
Mr.Senator. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a possibility.
Mr.Hubert. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to work, I take it, for Smoler’s?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various places where you lived?
Mr.Senator. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels, from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the State of Texas.
Mr.Hubert. What was your territory there?
Mr.Senator. Texas.
Mr.Hubert. The whole of Texas?
Mr.Senator. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only part of Texas.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, that comes a little later.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your various addresses just roughly.
Mr.Senator. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the street.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Senator. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.
Mr.Hubert. Was it an apartment?
Mr.Senator. Yes; it was an apartment.
Mr.Hubert. Were you alone?
Mr.Senator. No; I was with a couple other boys.
Mr.Hubert. Who were they?
Mr.Senator. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.
Mr.Hubert. He played the instrument called the xylophone?
Mr.Senator. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What is the one that is made out of wood?
Mr.Hubert. Marimba?
Mr.Senator. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?
Mr.Hubert. As a musical instrument?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. A percussion instrument?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he work?
Mr.Senator. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked locally, out of town.
Mr.Hubert. Who was the other one?
Mr.Senator. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name was Mort Seder.
Mr.Hubert. What did he do?
Mr.Senator. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.
Mr.Hubert. Have you maintained contact with either of those?
Mr.Senator. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale by the sea.
Mr.Hubert. What about the other one?
Mr.Senator. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would probably say in the last 2 months.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him often prior to that?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you lived together initially?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And then lived together after that?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place. He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that time. So we lived together.
Mr.Hubert. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that place?
Mr.Senator. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.
Mr.Hubert. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence at the McKinney Street address.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that broke up?
Mr.Senator. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to another place.
Mr.Hubert. Where was that?
Mr.Senator. That was on Shadyside Lane.
Mr.Hubert. And how long did you live there?
Mr.Senator. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a year, with a guess again, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. That is you and Seder?
Mr.Senator. Yes; Seder.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go from there?
Mr.Senator. Columbia Avenue.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live there?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a couple of years. I’m not sure now.
Mr.Hubert. You were still with Seder then?
Mr.Senator. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.
Mr.Hubert. So he left you, as it were?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?
Mr.Senator. I remained there for a while.
Mr.Hubert. And then what happened?
Mr.Senator. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m trying to figure where I went from there.
Mr.Hubert. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether youthen——
Mr.Senator. I stayed there for a while.
Mr.Hubert. You stayed there for a while alone?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I had my own place.
Mr.Hubert. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or were you alone?
Mr.Senator. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think where, though.
Mr.Hubert. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived with?
Mr.Senator. I think I moved to the Oasis.
Mr.Hubert. Is that an apartment house?
Mr.Senator. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places. They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe that is where I moved next.
Mr.Hubert. Whom did you share that apartment with?
Mr.Senator. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live there?
Mr.Senator. Pardon me?
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live there?
Mr.Senator. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what year. Do you have a listing of it?
Mr.Hubert. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July of 1958.
Mr.Senator. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have been living there yet. I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last place was at the Oasis.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?
Mr.Senator. Where I moved to?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all over, if I recall right.
Mr.Hubert. Were you working with Smoler’s then?
Mr.Senator. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember ifI——
Mr.Hubert. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of 1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting from July of 1958 untilapparently——
Mr.Senator. July of 1958?
Mr.Hubert. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas. That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were doing and where you were living?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.
Mr.Hubert. Do the best you can.
Mr.Senator. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.
Mr.Hubert. In any case you moved to the Oasis?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.
Mr.Hubert. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was, you got on the road.
Mr.Senator. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds, and then I finally got back with Rhea again.
Mr.Hubert. R-h-e-a?
Mr.Senator. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.
Mr.Hubert. Milwaukee?
Mr.Senator. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I was unemployed.
Mr.Hubert. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying normal expenses?
Mr.Senator. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.
Mr.Hubert. Were you living in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure.
Mr.Hubert. All that period?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the 3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?
Mr.Senator. January of 1962.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent nature other than in Dallas any place else?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. So that even though you were traveling during those years, doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.
Mr.Hubert. How long ago?
Mr.Senator. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I used to help him.
Mr.Hubert. Who is he?
Mr.Senator. His name is George Hamrah.
Mr.Hubert. How do you spell it?
Mr.Senator. H-a-m-r-a-h.
Mr.Hubert. He still lives in Houston?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he still lives in Houston.
Mr.Hubert. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you always lived in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the Oasis on?
Mr.Senator. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.
Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.
Mr.Hubert. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.
Mr.Senator. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes, I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.
Mr.Hubert. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers in the Oasis.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with at the Oasis.
Mr.Senator. I gave you thenames——
Mr.Hubert. Of two of them, as I recall.
Mr.Senator. Of one apartment.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his name was Frank Irwin.
Mr.Hubert. Go ahead.
Mr.Senator. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen them in the last few years?
Mr.Senator. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter part of last year.
Mr.Hubert. Even the man whose name you don’t know?
Mr.Senator. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John.
Mr.Hubert. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back to it.
Mr.Senator. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I just can’t put myfinger——
Mr.Hubert. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. At various apartments?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with Jack Ruby; is that correct?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where was Ruby living then?
Mr.Senator. Ruby was living at theMarsalla—
Mr.Hubert. Palace?
Mr.Senator. There is a bunch of apartments there.
Mr.Hubert. Marsalla South?
Mr.Senator. It may have been Marsalla South.
Mr.Hubert. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?
Mr.Senator. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla, Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on the street.
Mr.Hubert. It was on Marsalis Street?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live with Jack then?
Mr.Senator. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to 6 months; something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Anybody else live there with you?
Mr.Senator. No; just Jack and myself.
Mr.Hubert. What was the occasion for your leaving him?
Mr.Senator. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard business.
Mr.Hubert. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in Dallas; did you not?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live after you left Ruby?
Mr.Senator. After I left who?
Mr.Hubert. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that would have been around in September.
Mr.Senator. August.
Mr.Hubert. August of 1962?
Mr.Senator. Yes; August.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go then?
Mr.Senator. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.
Mr.Hubert. And where was that apartment?
Mr.Senator. That was on Maple Avenue.
Mr.Hubert. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment?
Mr.Senator. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment.
Mr.Hubert. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?
Mr.Senator. Why I moved?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Please run that back again.
Mr.Hubert. I say I judge from what you have said that the real reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a job selling postcards?
Mr.Senator. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is not necessarily it; no.
Mr.Hubert. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.
Mr.Hubert. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?
Mr.Senator. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club, and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.
Mr.Hubert. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living conditions as you have indicated?
Mr.Senator. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.
Mr.Hubert. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to go with Corbat, and you did?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And how long did you stay with Corbat?
Mr.Senator. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine, Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.
Mr.Hubert. That was about when?