Mr.Senator. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.
Mr.Hubert. But he moved later than you, didn’t he?
Mr.Senator. Well, see, I moved in first.
Mr.Hubert. With Corbat?
Mr.Senator. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right after that.
Mr.Hubert. He moved in with you?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that was in November of 1962?
Mr.Senator. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.
Mr.Hubert. When did Ruby move in?
Mr.Senator. He moved in around that same time.
Mr.Hubert. But after you?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably say, something like that, within that week.
Mr.Hubert. And then you stayed there until when?
Mr.Senator. The unfateful day.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while?
Mr.Senator. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there until August.
Mr.Hubert. Of 1963?
Mr.Senator. Yes; now, the reason Corbat movedout——
Mr.Hubert. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?
Mr.Senator. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August 8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.
Mr.Hubert. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s apartment?
Mr.Senator. It was the first week in November of 1963.
Mr.Hubert. By the way, would you state for the record what was the number of the apartment you and Corbat had?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?
Mr.Hubert. No.
Mr.Senator. Room number?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; on South Ewing.
Mr.Senator. 223 South Ewing.
Mr.Hubert. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I want to get that in the record.
Mr.Senator. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.
Mr.Hubert. They were next to one another, or opposite?
Mr.Senator. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.
Mr.Hubert. And they are numbered in sequence?
Mr.Senator. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207, something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.
Mr.Hubert. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?
Mr.Senator. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a couple years.
Mr.Hubert. What was he doing when you last saw him?
Mr.Senator. What does he do?
Mr.Hubert. What was he doing then?
Mr.Senator. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.
Mr.Hubert. What about James Young?
Mr.Senator. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance corporation called Warner.
Mr.Hubert. When did you last see him?
Mr.Senator. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City, and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. What time?
Mr.Senator. At night.
Mr.Hubert. No; what day?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. What time of the year, what month?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I think it was in December.
Mr.Hubert. Of 1963?
Mr.Senator. I think so, in December 1963.
Mr.Hubert. When had you seen him prior to that time?
Mr.Senator. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a couple years, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a thirdman——
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you remember his name now?
Mr.Senator. Jack Loftus.
Mr.Hubert. L-o-f-t-u-s?
Mr.Senator. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in Hillsboro, if he is still there.
Mr.Hubert. What is his occupation?
Mr.Senator. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in Hillsboro.
Mr.Hubert. Texas?
Mr.Senator. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. When was the last time you saw him?
Mr.Senator. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that, but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This part I do remember.
Mr.Hubert. That was the same day you saw Young?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?
Mr.Senator. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.
Mr.Hubert. That was after Oswald was shot?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. They were looking for you for what reason?
Mr.Senator. Sir?
Mr.Hubert. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking for you?
Mr.Senator. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them, you know, for a while. Nothing particular.
Mr.Hubert. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the apartment with Ruby.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, it was national news.
Mr.Senator. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident somehow.
Mr.Griffin. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw them?
Mr.Senator. These two boys?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?
Mr.Senator. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.
Mr.Hubert. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?
Mr.Senator. Before?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since you had seen Loftus?
Mr.Senator. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving, Frank Irwin.
Mr.Hubert. What was the friend’s name?
Mr.Senator. Frank Irwin.
Mr.Hubert. I-r-w-i-n?
Mr.Senator. I-r-w-i-n, yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?
Mr.Senator. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.
Mr.Hubert. Did he know Ruby?
Mr.Senator. Yes, he knew him casually.
Mr.Hubert. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. Did Stanley Corbat know him?
Mr.Senator. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him. But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.
Mr.Hubert. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out of the apartment?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where is he living now, in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on Munger Street.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure.
Mr.Hubert. How did you come in contact with him, socially?
Mr.Senator. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across him once in a delicatessen.
Mr.Hubert. Just once?
Mr.Senator. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact, I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.
Mr.Hubert. What does he do?
Mr.Senator. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s budget dresses.
Mr.Griffin. Which department store?
Mr.Senator. Titche.
Mr.Griffin. That is in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where is that located?
Mr.Senator. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main Street.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.
Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by way of charges?
Mr.Senator. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.
Mr.Hubert. Did they charge you?
Mr.Senator. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I had nothing to sober up with.
Mr.Hubert. Did they follow up with any charges?
Mr.Senator. No; we were fined $15.
Mr.Hubert. You were fined?
Mr.Senator. I believe it was $15.
Mr.Hubert. Is that the only time?
Mr.Senator. The only time in my life.
Mr.Hubert. The only time you have ever been arrested?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. There have been no other charges?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?
Mr.Senator. Never.
Mr.Hubert. During the war?
Mr.Senator. Never, none whatsoever.
Mr.Hubert. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?
Mr.Senator. Professional?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to any gambling houses?
Mr.Senator. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.
Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.
Mr.Hubert. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?
Mr.Senator. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or something like that?
Mr.Hubert. No.
Mr.Senator. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What other recreation did we have? So we gambled.
Mr.Hubert. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from July of 1958 until the first of 1962.
Mr.Senator. What years?
Mr.Hubert. According to the records, there were no earnings reported for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.
Mr.Senator. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.
Mr.Hubert. Go ahead.
Mr.Senator. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.
When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t file.
Mr.Hubert. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.
You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?
Mr.Senator. No; that was with Rhea.
Mr.Hubert. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose your job there?
Mr.Senator. With Smoler Brothers?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy with them.
First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow over that.
Mr.Hubert. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done considerably better?
Mr.Senator. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.
Mr.Hubert. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?
You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s, you go toRhea’s——
Mr.Senator. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you know that were nothing to speak of.
Mr.Hubert. Here is what I want to get at.
Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about that.
Mr.Senator. I lived on handouts.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about it.
Mr.Senator. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed, extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three, two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and they kept me for a while.
Mr.Hubert. You did not pay any part of the rent?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?
Mr.Senator. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.
Mr.Griffin. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?
Mr.Senator. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and Rhea?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think there was much time between them.
Mr.Griffin. What would you say, 3 months?
Mr.Senator. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.
Mr.Griffin. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.
Mr.Senator. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.
Mr.Griffin. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?
Mr.Senator. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while, which didn’t last too long.
Mr.Griffin. Doing the same kind of work?
Mr.Senator. Yes, doing the same kind of work.
Mr.Griffin. Covering territory?
Mr.Senator. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them long and I wasn’t making any money with them.
Mr.Griffin. What company was that?
Mr.Senator. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.
Mr.Griffin. How long would you say you were with them?
Mr.Senator. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4 months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.
Mr.Griffin. Were you on a straight commission with them?
Mr.Senator. Yes. No, a draw against commission.
Mr.Griffin. A draw against commission?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?
Mr.Senator. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.
Mr.Griffin. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for next?
Mr.Senator. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know I did some odd things. I was withRhea——
Mr.Hubert. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you get into other lines?
Mr.Senator. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me going.
Mr.Griffin. Was that in Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?
Mr.Senator. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I worked for Rhea.
Mr.Hubert. How long did the Rhea employment last?
Mr.Senator. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half, I’m not sure now.
Mr.Hubert. Did you make any money off of that?
Mr.Senator. Just a draw part.
Mr.Hubert. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for Rhea,that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have enough money then to pay your fair share?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as Iwas——
Mr.Hubert. So when you are talking about thehandouts——
Mr.Senator. The handouts is when I was completely out.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t have any employment at all?
Mr.Senator. No, I was completely out.
Mr.Hubert. That was for about a year, year and a half?
Mr.Senator. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.
Mr.Hubert. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any money?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. You were not contributing?
Mr.Senator. No. Ruby gave me handouts.
Mr.Hubert. That is right?
Mr.Senator. Certainly.
Mr.Hubert. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is it not, roughly?
Mr.Senator. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9 months, I think.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?
Mr.Senator. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first moved in with him, because I had no money.
Mr.Hubert. And then yougot——
Mr.Senator. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on a 50-50 basis.
Mr.Hubert. That is when you moved to South Ewing?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Which was in August of 1962?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you making money at that time?
Mr.Senator. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.
Mr.Hubert. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I was in the postcards.
Mr.Hubert. That is what business? What company is that?
Mr.Senator. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you with them?
Mr.Senator. I was sales manager, whatever that means.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you with them?
Mr.Senator. August of 1962 until November of 1963.
Mr.Hubert. What part of November?
Mr.Senator. The latter part of November.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald was shot?
Mr.Senator. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.
Mr.Hubert. What were you making then?
Mr.Senator. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.
Mr.Hubert. That was your actual draw?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. In cash?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Roughly $250 a month?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?
Mr.Senator. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.
Mr.Hubert. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute; youhad not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby, because you say that thatemployment——
Mr.Senator. No, no, no; you mean priorto——
Mr.Hubert. To the shooting.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You were still working with them?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you were still drawing that pay?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?
Mr.Senator. No; I am referring to the first time.
Mr.Hubert. Oh, I see.
Mr.Senator. That was in 1962.
Mr.Hubert. You were living in another place?
Mr.Senator. Yes; in 1962.
Mr.Hubert. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby; that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Youwere——
Mr.Senator. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.
Mr.Hubert. From the time you left Corbat until you moved withRuby——
Mr.Senator. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move in, so I moved in.
Mr.Hubert. And were you supposed to pay any part?
Mr.Senator. With Jack, no.
Mr.Hubert. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?
Mr.Senator. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up during a week night.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this Rhea Manufacturing Co.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What did they do? What did they make?
Mr.Senator. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.
Mr.Griffin. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about that business with Smoler Bros.?
Mr.Senator. The type business?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year, you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.
Mr.Griffin. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer for the following season?
Mr.Senator. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out. Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time?
Mr.Senator. Yes; that is right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we want toknow, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters, seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would that be?
Mr.Griffin. That is right.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Were you always on a draw right along?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Were there some periods during each year when you did not earn your draw?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that you did not earn your draw?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure.
Mr.Griffin. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did not earn your draw?
Mr.Senator. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or there may have been times when I fell even behind.
Mr.Hubert. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Griffin. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of New York State is that?
Mr.Senator. Are you familiar with Albany?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. You are familiar with Schenectady?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. How about Amsterdam?
Mr.Griffin. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.
Mr.Senator. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off the beaten path a bit from your main lines.
Mr.Griffin. It is upstate New York?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills of the Adirondacks.
Mr.Griffin. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you go to New Hampshire?
Mr.Senator. I needed a job.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to go there?
Mr.Senator. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name of it again?
Mr.Hubert. The Hensroost.
Mr.Senator. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go on.
Mr.Hubert. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10 years ago, that you moved to Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?
Mr.Senator. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure.
Mr.Hubert. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.
Mr.Hubert. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met him?
Mr.Senator. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or take a few.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.
Mr.Senator. How I met him?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else walked in, Jack Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how your friendship or acquaintance developed?
Mr.Senator. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi, George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?”
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first meeting?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him; having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.
Mr.Hubert. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago as casual?
Mr.Senator. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere else.
Mr.Hubert. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately developed, in any case.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.
Mr.Hubert. You did not go to the Vegas very much?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much.
Mr.Hubert. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us what brought that about?
Mr.Senator. Yes. (Brief recess.)
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You understand that?
Mr.Senator. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.
Mr.Hubert. What?
Mr.Senator. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.
Mr.Hubert. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to have a lawyer?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. I just wanted to get it straight.
Mr.Senator. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a lawyer.
Mr.Hubert. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?
Mr.Senator. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to that there wasthe Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.
Mr.Hubert. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?
Mr.Senator. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember actually when that opened?
Mr.Senator. Which?
Mr.Hubert. The Sovereign.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the Carousel?
Mr.Senator. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or 6 months?
Mr.Senator. That it changed to the Carousel?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.
Mr.Griffin. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?
Mr.Senator. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of things?
Mr.Senator. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.
Mr.Griffin. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the Sovereign Club?
Mr.Senator. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have striptease performance?
Mr.Senator. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had the Sovereign Club.
Mr.Griffin. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you visit any of those?
Mr.Senator. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend who was a member or something of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more attractive to you than some of the other clubs?
Mr.Senator. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say “Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?
Mr.Senator. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre Lounge?
Mr.Senator. As of recent?
Mr.Griffin. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and Jack would let you in.
Mr.Senator. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the manager, who the manager was at that time.
Mr.Griffin. You know Abe Weinstein?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I know him casually.
Mr.Griffin. Had you visited his clubs?
Mr.Senator. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many times.
Mr.Hubert. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from there.
Mr.Senator. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature, he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from another source?
Mr.Senator. No; I told him I was down.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask to go in with him?
Mr.Senator. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.
Mr.Hubert. That is the Carousel you mean?
Mr.Senator. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck them he has really got something to buck.
Mr.Hubert. So he was having difficulties and you were too?
Mr.Senator. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?
Mr.Senator. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.
Mr.Hubert. How long did that situation go on?
Mr.Senator. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.
Mr.Hubert. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment which he then had?
Mr.Senator. He didn’t have an apartment.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I say.
Mr.Senator. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he gave you cash?
Mr.Senator. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money or he would just take me.
Mr.Hubert. Just do what?
Mr.Senator. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.
Mr.Hubert. But then he did get an apartment?
Mr.Senator. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long after that.
Mr.Hubert. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that apartment with him?
Mr.Senator. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow he got this apartment on South Ewing.
Mr.Hubert. On South Ewing?
Mr.Senator. No; Marsalis.
Mr.Hubert. And then you moved in with him right away?
Mr.Senator. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it together but I know I was there.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t have to pay any rent?
Mr.Senator. No; but I helped him in the club.
Mr.Hubert. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What kind of work did you do at the club?
Mr.Senator. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d take cash for him.
Mr.Hubert. You mean that is on the front door?
Mr.Senator. Yes; on the front door.
Mr.Hubert. That is the $2 admission charge?
Mr.Senator. Yes; that is right.
Mr.Hubert. And what other jobs did you do?
Mr.Senator. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?
Mr.Senator. No. He had a clean-up boy.
Mr.Hubert. Who was he?
Mr.Senator. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.
Mr.Hubert. Was he there when you first went there?
Mr.Senator. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until the time the club closed down.
Mr.Hubert. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?
Mr.Senator. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the apartment house.
Mr.Hubert. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.
Mr.Senator. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me up, I had to do something, see.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I had in mind.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you leave at the same time that he did?
Mr.Senator. I would leave when he left.
Mr.Hubert. Because you were both going back to the same house?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What about going there? You went earlier?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in the apartment longer than I could.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you normally go to work then?
Mr.Senator. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.
Mr.Hubert. You never had to go in midafternoon though?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of that sort?
Mr.Senator. Andrew.
Mr.Hubert. What time did Andrew get there?
Mr.Senator. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around 1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I guess, maybe a little longer.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions and so you moved in with Corbat?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of 1963—is that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was your relationship with Jack then?
Mr.Senator. August of 1962.
Mr.Hubert. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up with Corbat.
Mr.Senator. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there. At rare times I would help him at the door.
Mr.Hubert. But you had a job then?
Mr.Senator. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the door, things of that kind.
Mr.Hubert. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with Corbat, is that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.
Mr.Hubert. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.
Mr.Senator. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got along excepting when he hollered at me.
Mr.Hubert. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?
Mr.Senator. Yes; a wagon.
Mr.Hubert. A station wagon?
Mr.Senator. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?
Mr.Griffin. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Is it a passenger car?
Mr.Senator. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.
Mr.Hubert. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?
Mr.Senator. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in the back, the back part.
Mr.Hubert. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?
Mr.Senator. It was the company.
Mr.Hubert. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time to time. How often about, just roughly?
Mr.Senator. Two or three times a week. It all depends.
Mr.Hubert. And you would help there?
Mr.Senator. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.
Mr.Hubert. If you helped did he pay you?
Mr.Senator. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the things he did for me, when I was down and out.
Mr.Hubert. All right, then I think we have covered the time when Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment next door.