Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?
Mr.Senator. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.
Mr.Hubert. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?
Mr.Senator. No; I had the automobile until January.
Mr.Hubert. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with these people until after Oswald was shot?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But at the stress ofthe——
Mr.Senator. But the stresses.
Mr.Hubert. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.
Mr.Hubert. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever?
Mr.Senator. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.
Mr.Hubert. When was the last time you owned an automobile?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr.Hubert. What kind was it?
Mr.Senator. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.
Mr.Hubert. Did you sell it?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in.
Mr.Hubert. You traded it in for what?
Mr.Senator. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I believe.
Mr.Hubert. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4 or 5 years?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose. You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new car.
Mr.Senator. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is it. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind. You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now what year?
Mr.Senator. 1964.
Mr.Griffin. Just a couple of months ago?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when you moved in with Jack?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of November, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general mode of living and working with him that had existed before?
Mr.Senator. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with him,so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in maybe on a weekday.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, youroperation——
Mr.Senator. Just at the door.
Mr.Hubert. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not like it was before?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Not on a daily basis?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Just at night, not every night?
Mr.Senator. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.
Mr.Hubert. But you were still at your job?
Mr.Senator. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him.
Mr.Hubert. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?
Mr.Senator. There was no food. The only food there was, they make pizzas once in a while.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the apartment.
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny guy in cooking.
Mr.Hubert. Did you do any cooking there at all?
Mr.Senator. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs, it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook for.
Mr.Hubert. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?
Mr.Senator. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.
Mr.Hubert. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship. You had a regular working day I take it?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other hand, would be sleeping in the morning?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got back at night or before, as a normal thing?
Mr.Senator. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5 and 6 because many times I stayed out.
Mr.Hubert. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in point of time?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.
Mr.Hubert. What about weekends? Was that different?
Mr.Senator. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before he does, whether I am working or otherwise.
Mr.Hubert. You would help him at the club?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about the same time he did?
Mr.Senator. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning, I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that I get up.
Mr.Griffin. What is your regular rising time?
Mr.Senator. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at 10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.
Mr.Hubert. What about on weekends?
Mr.Senator. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday.
Mr.Griffin. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?
Mr.Senator. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of coffee and go to work?
Mr.Senator. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee. I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in the morning.
Mr.Griffin. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where?
Mr.Senator. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those are the three places I normally was always in.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?
Mr.Senator. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot where I eat lunch.
Mr.Griffin. What would you do about dinners?
Mr.Senator. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack, because I just can’t cook of his nature.
Mr.Griffin. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?
Mr.Senator. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe; on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.
Mr.Griffin. Who did the shopping?
Mr.Senator. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t shop for him.
Mr.Griffin. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?
Mr.Senator. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like it that is too bad.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits, unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.
Mr.Griffin. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure.
Mr.Griffin. Or was there some difference in your relationship?
Mr.Senator. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.
Mr.Griffin. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any particular evening what the meal was going to be?
Mr.Senator. I had no say. I had no say.
Mr.Griffin. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was coming back for dinner?
Mr.Senator. No; no call; no.
Mr.Griffin. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would?
Mr.Senator. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me.
Mr.Griffin. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you wanted to do?
Mr.Senator. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set pattern. There was no particular time.
Mr.Hubert. I gather from all this, from the fact that your acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?
Mr.Senator. I knew something about them.
Mr.Griffin. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.
Mr.Senator. He had enough of them.
Mr.Hubert. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?
Mr.Senator. He had a few dogs.
Mr.Hubert. All the time that you have known him was that so or when did that begin?
Mr.Senator. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.
Mr.Hubert. That is about 2½ years ago?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t know anything about the dogs?
Mr.Senator. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before.
Mr.Hubert. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it?
Mr.Senator. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba, who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.
Mr.Hubert. So he kept them.
Mr.Senator. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he keep them?
Mr.Senator. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which everybody in this country knows.
Mr.Hubert. She was the mother?
Mr.Senator. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound upwith——
Mr.Hubert. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?
Mr.Senator. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.
Mr.Hubert. Sheba was always with him?
Mr.Senator. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.
Mr.Hubert. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he?
Mr.Senator. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs. Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip.
Mr.Hubert. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a normal attitude that people have to dogs?
Mr.Senator. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no meaning when he says this.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?
Mr.Senator. What?
Mr.Hubert. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?
Mr.Senator. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior to. No; it had to be prior.
Mr.Hubert. You have read perhaps a lot about thedogs——
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Since the shooting?
Mr.Senator. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Were there other people that you remember who commented to you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that hewas——
Mr.Senator. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one was “my wife,” which absolutelyhas——
Mr.Hubert. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?
Mr.Senator. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was after, see.
Mr.Hubert. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?
Mr.Senator. The remarks were made after, that is right.
Mr.Hubert. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were made after?
Mr.Senator. After.
Mr.Hubert. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were supposed to have occurred prior?
Mr.Senator. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.
Mr.Hubert. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the shooting?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these animals?
Mr.Senator. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of years.
Mr.Hubert. There was nothing abnormal about it?
Mr.Senator. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog may be.
Mr.Hubert. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?
Mr.Senator. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.
Mr.Hubert. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?
Mr.Senator. What?
Mr.Hubert. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?
Mr.Senator. That he would have?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.
Mr.Griffin. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel that way?
Mr.Senator. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.
Mr.Hubert. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.
Mr.Senator. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim 2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he do any ice skating?
Mr.Senator. Yes, we were ice skating once.
Mr.Hubert. Was he good at it?
Mr.Senator. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because he had never been on ice skates before.
Mr.Hubert. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?
Mr.Senator. Sir?
Mr.Hubert. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?
Mr.Senator. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked me to go, too, and did I suffer.
Mr.Hubert. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with, you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been on ice skates, including his age.
Mr.Hubert. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?
Mr.Senator. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things, weightlifters.
Mr.Hubert. Weightlifting equipment?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He had them in the house?
Mr.Senator. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.
Mr.Hubert. What was his general physical condition?
Mr.Senator. Excellent.
Mr.Hubert. Was he a powerful man?
Mr.Senator. A powerful man?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he tangled with people?
Mr.Senator. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a couple of people.
Mr.Hubert. You mean between him and other people.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about those, would you?
Mr.Senator. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him, because he can go thisfast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.
Mr.Hubert. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you just tell us about those.
Mr.Senator. I’ll tell you one.
Mr.Hubert. About where they happened and the time.
Mr.Senator. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one. Do you want it in the club or out of the club?
Mr.Hubert. Any one.
Mr.Senator. This was outside of the club.
Mr.Hubert. When was it?
Mr.Senator. Last year.
Mr.Hubert. About what time last year?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.
Mr.Hubert. The summer of 1963?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what happened.
Mr.Senator. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the Burgundy Room is?
Mr.Hubert. The Adolphus Hotel.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with this fellow here.
Mr.Hubert. Who, what fellow?
Mr.Senator. His name?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Don Taber or Tabin.
Mr.Hubert. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You were with that man?
Mr.Senator. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some girl and went over to talk to her.
Mr.Hubert. So you were alone at the table?
Mr.Senator. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.
Mr.Hubert. Who came in?
Mr.Senator. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know, and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other, I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?
Mr.Hubert. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.
Mr.Senator. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.
Mr.Hubert. Go what?
Mr.Senator. Do you want me to use the word?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. He told him to go —— himself.
Mr.Hubert. Who told who?
Mr.Senator. Don to Jack.
Mr.Hubert. Told that to Jack?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.
Mr.Hubert. You mean when Jack came in?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Taber or Tabin told him that?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And there had been no previous conversation between them?
Mr.Senator. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason or other.
Mr.Hubert. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. To Jack?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then what happened?
Mr.Senator. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he hit him?
Mr.Senator. He hit him.
Mr.Hubert. With his fist or what?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any knucks?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or pistol?
Mr.Senator. It was his fist, yes.
Mr.Hubert. What happened?
Mr.Senator. So they got into a little battle.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. So they actually squared off?
Mr.Senator. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.
Mr.Hubert. What happened?
Mr.Senator. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.
Mr.Hubert. Was he knocked off his feet?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was he a big man, this Taber?
Mr.Senator. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. And how tall?
Mr.Senator. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr.Hubert. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and weight?
Mr.Senator. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.
Mr.Hubert. And weighed what?
Mr.Senator. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.
Mr.Hubert. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did he have much fat?
Mr.Senator. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it. But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous back.
Mr.Hubert. Was he fast with his fists?
Mr.Senator. I would say for his age he was.
Mr.Hubert. When you saw this battle with Taber?
Mr.Senator. Yes, he was pretty fast.
Mr.Hubert. And he definitely got the best of him?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What about the other occasion?
Mr.Senator. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?
Mr.Senator. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be around the side and all I caught is the tail end.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know when?
Mr.Senator. That was in 1962.
Mr.Hubert. Did he knock the man off his feet?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that? He told you?
Mr.Senator. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.
Mr.Hubert. Is this the opinion that is generally held?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held or not.
Mr.Hubert. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?
Mr.Senator. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.
Mr.Griffin. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the club?
Mr.Senator. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of some nature.
Mr.Hubert. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew about from having observed them yourself?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen that often?
Mr.Senator. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Like throwing them down the stairs?
Mr.Senator. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.
The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat them up.
Mr.Hubert. What was your answer?
Mr.Senator. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I remember right.
Mr.Hubert. Who did?
Mr.Senator. Mr. Alexander.
Mr.Hubert. But in any case what is the truth?
Mr.Senator. What did I answer him?
Mr.Hubert. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth as to that question.
Mr.Senator. I’ll tell you how I answered him.
Mr.Hubert. Yes, all right; tell us that first.
Mr.Senator. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size, something like that I answered him.
Mr.Hubert. That is your opinion now, too?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you base that opinion on what?
Mr.Senator. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.
Mr.Hubert. And you think that is not so?
Mr.Senator. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.
Mr.Hubert. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion right now?
Mr.Senator. How do I form that opinion?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size don’t mean anything to him.
Mr.Hubert. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to anything?
Mr.Senator. No; I have never witnessed any.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?
Mr.Senator. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?
Mr.Senator. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut. His cut much more off than mine.
Mr.Hubert. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?
Mr.Senator. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?
Mr.Senator. I have never seen it.
Mr.Hubert. You have heard about it?
Mr.Senator. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.
Mr.Hubert. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never witnessed anything of this nature.
Mr.Hubert. Have you an opinion?
Mr.Senator. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t know what I was guessing at.
Mr.Hubert. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.
Mr.Senator. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.
Mr.Hubert. And that was formed I think you told us from your general knowledge.
Mr.Senator. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.
Mr.Hubert. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?
Mr.Senator. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type of man who would do that in your opinion?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so. Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.
Mr.Hubert. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would be that brutal.
Mr.Griffin. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?
Mr.Senator. Yes, but there was no kicking.
Mr.Griffin. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?
Mr.Senator. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped. But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.
Mr.Griffin. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody pull him off?
Mr.Senator. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.
Mr.Griffin. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you didn’tactually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at the tail end of it.
Mr.Senator. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, it is going up a flight of steps.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around theLshape of it I didn’t see.
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were thrown?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. How long did this last?
Mr.Senator. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or two blows and that was it.
Mr.Griffin. Did anybody come in and break that up?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he knocked him down with that blow.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?
Mr.Senator. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.
Mr.Griffin. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is about using his fists?
Mr.Senator. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.
Mr.Griffin. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair evaluation.
Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?
Mr.Senator. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.
Mr.Griffin. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?
Mr.Senator. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man thinks.
Mr.Griffin. You don’t know that much about him?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. To be able to say that?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the way to solve the problem at that particular point.
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.
Mr.Griffin. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?
Mr.Senator. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.
Mr.Griffin. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of steam on this guy.
Mr.Senator. Maybe this is something that just went off instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it could have been.
Mr.Hubert. You have indicated along here in your testimony, particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that was your phrase?
Mr.Senator. Agree.
Mr.Hubert. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like that.
Mr.Senator. He could have a pretty fast temper.
Mr.Hubert. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must be based upon episodes when you witnessed himlosing——
Mr.Senator. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.
Mr.Hubert. Tell usabout——
Mr.Senator. Hollered at me, you know.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?
Mr.Senator. Well, if there should have been discussion about something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler at me and flare up at me.
Mr.Hubert. What do you mean by “make wrong”?
Mr.Senator. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would say no it is white and that is it.
Mr.Hubert. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?
Mr.Senator. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it.
Mr.Hubert. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that hewould——
Mr.Senator. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would get over it that fast from me.
Mr.Hubert. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would describe it as anger,manifested——
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Wait a while.
Mr.Senator. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he wouldn’t.
Mr.Hubert. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and that you have seen many times, and you also tell usthat——
Mr.Senator. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off. He didn’t like that.
Mr.Hubert. But you say he would calm down right away?
Mr.Senator. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them “Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all times.
Mr.Hubert. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give us examples of that?
Mr.Senator. I can give you examples of myself on that.
Mr.Hubert. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have described?
Mr.Senator. Yes, he would holler at me.
Mr.Hubert. Then it would be all over.
Mr.Senator. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he would tone down.
Mr.Hubert. How long would it take?
Mr.Senator. A matter of a minute or two.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject and be quite his normal self again?
Mr.Senator. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you. Whatever it might be I can’t be right.
Mr.Hubert. That was the way he treated you?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that Jack owned a pair of knuckles?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when he bought them?
Mr.Senator. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. How did you learn that he had them?
Mr.Senator. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a cloth sack.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he keep that sack?
Mr.Senator. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep anything else in the sack?
Mr.Senator. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see, Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money, which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in all different pockets.
Mr.Hubert. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You shake your head. What does that mean?
Mr.Senator. He is not a drinker.
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t drink at all?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?
Mr.Senator. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.
Mr.Hubert. How about smoking?
Mr.Senator. No smoking whatsoever.
Mr.Hubert. What was his attitude toward women?
Mr.Senator. Like any other man.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say any other normal man?
Mr.Senator. Any other normal man.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you the possibility of homosexuality?
Mr.Senator. Never.
Mr.Hubert. On his part?
Mr.Senator. Never.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?
Mr.Senator. I never noticed it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he lisp?
Mr.Senator. Yes. So do I.
Mr.Hubert. Jack has a lisp?
Mr.Senator. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?
Mr.Senator. No. Just as normal as any human being.
Mr.Hubert. He was single.
Mr.Senator. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never been married, Hyman.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any girl friends?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he went out with various girls.
Mr.Hubert. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex relationships.
Mr.Senator. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch wherever he may be.
Mr.Hubert. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would throw light upon that.
Mr.Senator. He likes women.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr.Senator. How do I know he likes women?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I like women.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?
Mr.Senator. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think this is a normal thing to say.
Mr.Hubert. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?
Mr.Senator. This here I’m never around.
Mr.Hubert. What?
Mr.Senator. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we can leave that off.
Mr.Senator. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else talks to them.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?
Mr.Senator. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This is when I turn out to be the cook.
Mr.Hubert. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in your own mind?
Mr.Senator. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?
Mr.Senator. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some company or somebody over.
Mr.Hubert. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?
Mr.Senator. On rare occasions.
Mr.Hubert. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion. That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that nature?
Mr.Senator. No.