Mr.Hubert. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at his club, I mean the waitresses?
Mr.Senator. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly business.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong statement?
Mr.Senator. I have heard that expressed many a time.
Mr.Hubert. What do you think about that statement?
Mr.Senator. It definitely is a wrong statement.
Mr.Hubert. You never saw it.
Mr.Senator. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all, he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What the conversations are I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate character?
Mr.Senator. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.
Mr.Hubert. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?
Mr.Senator. The girls working in the club?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?
Mr.Hubert. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them then I would ask you to explain the difference.
Mr.Senator. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.
Mr.Hubert. Something must have happened that leads you to that opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would certainly have done something about it?
Mr.Senator. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody outside using any of his girls.
Mr.Hubert. You yourself have heard him say that?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.
Mr.Hubert. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of relations with people who were in the club?
Mr.Senator. Beyond the area?
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the club or customers.
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with people who were not patrons of the club?
Mr.Senator. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know. First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all, where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.
Mr.Hubert. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us how you know that?
Mr.Senator. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a couple of M.C.’s already.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything to you?
Mr.Senator. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?
Mr.Senator. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.
Mr.Hubert. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?
Mr.Senator. I would say he is; yes.
Mr.Hubert. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?
Mr.Senator. As far as going to church, synagogue?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.
Mr.Hubert. That is, Jewish holidays?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; always.
Mr.Hubert. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?
Mr.Senator. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question because I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you lived with him.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. During the time that you lived with him did he ever indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?
Mr.Senator. They go on Friday nights.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights regularly?
Mr.Senator. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the important holidays.
Mr.Hubert. Do you consider him to be a religious man?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that he observes as to holidays.
Mr.Hubert. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was either religious or not religious.
Mr.Senator. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday. He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does observe those things.
Mr.Hubert. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?
Mr.Senator. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.
Mr.Hubert. I think it is a good time for recess.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.
Mr.Griffin. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever participating in any activities, Jewish activities?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. B’nai B’rith?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the synagogue’s men’s clubs?
Mr.Senator. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)
(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment you have to make about that.
Mr.Senator. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.
Mr.Hubert. Do you mean by that that you don’t know?
Mr.Senator. Break down when you say political issues.
Mr.Hubert. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?
Mr.Senator. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything of that nature.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs as they were developing?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.
Mr.Hubert. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?
Mr.Senator. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.
Mr.Hubert. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban crisis in 1962?
Mr.Senator. He never discussed these.
Mr.Hubert. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I have read that.
Mr.Hubert. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?
Mr.Senator. No; he didn’t.
Mr.Hubert. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that sort of thing at all?
Mr.Senator. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much. He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course, I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.
Mr.Hubert. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as reflected by newspapers and other news media.
I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his interest was towards topics of the day of international import.
Mr.Senator. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international incident?
Mr.Senator. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t. I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we say, about subjects of that nature?
Mr.Senator. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I remember that distinctly.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he saw that on TV?
Mr.Senator. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who writes a column in New York.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can remember any discussion with him?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. At all?
Mr.Senator. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t remember any such discussions?
Mr.Senator. I don’t; no.
Mr.Hubert. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole, of his interest in international affairs?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his character, that is all.
Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind of ism.
Mr.Senator. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the time we saw the billboards.
Mr.Hubert. You mean thatwas——
Mr.Senator. The impeachmentof——
Mr.Hubert. After the Presidentwas——
Mr.Senator. Right; this was the time that Isaw——
Mr.Hubert. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him interested in a matter of that nature?
Mr.Senator. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper.
Mr.Hubert. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it.
(The previous question was read by the reporter.)
Mr.Hubert. Can you answer that question?
Mr.Senator. I didn’t get that.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned that one incident.
Mr.Senator. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the country he lives in. He wasnever——
Mr.Hubert. I suppose that would be called Americanism.
Mr.Senator. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.
Mr.Hubert. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have been?
Mr.Senator. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.
Mr.Hubert. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that caused you to form that opinion?
You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am asking you to say.
Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or attitudes?
Mr.Senator. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as I take it that I know that I do.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on the other hand you don’t know about somebody else.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very fond of the city he lived in.
Mr.Hubert. And how do you know that?
Mr.Senator. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas, he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city like New York or Chicago or California.
Mr.Hubert. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?
Mr.Senator. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And, of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.
Mr.Hubert. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume that everybody loves their country.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Unless there is something to the contrary.
Mr.Senator. Sure.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. I want to ask some questions along that line.
Mr.Hubert. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.
Mr.Griffin. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area, pick up from notes I have been making.
Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any political candidates for local office in Texas?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like that, political-wise or anything of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for anybody?
Mr.Senator. No; I haven’t.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political sort that would be other than newspaper literature?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society and Civil Liberties Union.
Mr.Senator. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.
Mr.Griffin. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?
Mr.Senator. No; he bought it on the way home.
Mr.Griffin. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?
Mr.Senator. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.
Mr.Griffin. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?
Mr.Senator. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.
Mr.Griffin. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper rather than a Dallas paper?
Mr.Senator. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth, I assume.
Mr.Griffin. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?
Mr.Senator. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.
Mr.Griffin. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t even think he could understand it.
Mr.Griffin. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Time magazine, Newsweek?
Mr.Senator. I never seen any magazines come in.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any magazines around the house?
Mr.Senator. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest.
Mr.Griffin. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And did you have a radio?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV or listening to the radio?
Mr.Senator. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on TV.
Mr.Griffin. What were those?
Mr.Senator. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever stories there might be.
Mr.Griffin. You mean the movies?
Mr.Senator. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a radio in his car?
Mr.Senator. He had, what do you call those little things?
Mr.Griffin. Transistor?
Mr.Senator. Yes; transistor.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?
Mr.Senator. You mean put in?
Mr.Griffin. You know.
Mr.Senator. He had it put in?
Mr.Griffin. A car radio.
Mr.Senator. Oh yes; installed with the car?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?
Mr.Senator. No; just a radio that came with the car.
Mr.Griffin. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. FM or anything like that?
Mr.Senator. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it, and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.
Mr.Griffin. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Or shortwave?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if it could or not.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of a radio was it?
Mr.Senator. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there was a clock and the other side was a radio.
Mr.Griffin. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.
Mr.Senator. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.
Mr.Hubert. Coming back to the automobile and theradio——
Mr.Senator. Pardon me.
Mr.Hubert. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on or not?
Mr.Senator. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on.
Mr.Hubert. Normally he would not put it on?
Mr.Senator. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he laid it on the seat.
Mr.Hubert. Did he play it?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he put on the music.
Mr.Hubert. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead of turning on the radio in the automobile?
Mr.Senator. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it on and play the music.
Mr.Hubert. He would play the transistor?
Mr.Senator. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car radio was not working.
Mr.Hubert. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his finances, and his banking and so forth?
Mr.Senator. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now, if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it.
Mr.Hubert. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?
Mr.Senator. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.
Mr.Hubert. Now, how did he carry it?
Mr.Senator. In ready cash.
Mr.Hubert. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?
Mr.Senator. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I don’t think he knew where he had it half the time.
Mr.Hubert. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here, here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets.
Mr.Senator. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me “George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his money.
Mr.Hubert. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the Carousel at night and you would go home?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of that night?
Mr.Senator. In his pocket.
Mr.Hubert. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag. Did you ever see that?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close to me.
Mr.Hubert. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all, about his handling of it.
Mr.Senator. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?
Mr.Senator. The bag? In the trunk.
Mr.Hubert. In the trunk of the car?
Mr.Senator. While going home.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw it in the trunk of the car?
Mr.Senator. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.
Mr.Hubert. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what you know about it.
Mr.Senator. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with him, this is why he always had the gun with him.
Mr.Hubert. Did he keep the gun on his body?
Mr.Senator. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in his pocket.
Mr.Hubert. Did he own a holster for the gun?
Mr.Senator. No; not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?
Mr.Senator. No; I have never seen it.
Mr.Hubert. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep it?
Mr.Senator. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in the bag.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise, about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other words, as far as you know?
Mr.Senator. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.
Mr.Hubert. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is from what he told you, or did he say anything else?
Mr.Senator. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything.
Mr.Hubert. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she?
Mr.Senator. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it was before me even, you know.
Mr.Hubert. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she really was the owner?
Mr.Senator. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it was like hers.
Mr.Hubert. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?
Mr.Senator. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying there so long.
Mr.Hubert. How do they get along?
Mr.Senator. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.
Mr.Hubert. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.
Mr.Senator. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure you she can holler too.
Mr.Hubert. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?
Mr.Senator. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t quite understand.
Mr.Senator. For me the further away the better. In other words, I shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff.
Mr.Hubert. What you are sayingis——
Mr.Senator. I am not happy over the fights.
Mr.Hubert. My question is how frequently it happened.
Mr.Senator. How frequent I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it began you would want to get away, is that the idea?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is something that is flickering.
He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never want to work for her.
Mr.Hubert. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel? Do you know anything about that, who owned that?
Mr.Senator. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he had a partner in the Sovereign Club.
Mr.Hubert. Joe Slayton was it?
Mr.Senator. That is it, Joe Slayton.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign entirely?
Mr.Senator. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.
Mr.Hubert. I mean after Slayton left.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.
Mr.Hubert. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?
Mr.Senator. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.
Mr.Hubert. Connected by way of ownership?
Mr.Senator. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he owned half or what it was I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. On what facts do you base that?
Mr.Senator. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What part he owned I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. What facts make you state that you know he had something to do with it? There must be something that occurred again.
Mr.Senator. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that club somehow.
Mr.Hubert. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that Ralph Paul owned part of it?
Mr.Senator. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack, there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or ownership?
Mr.Senator. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course, this is after this whole deal happened.
Mr.Hubert. The shooting?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What did he tell you?
Mr.Senator. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He was part owner of that place.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?
Mr.Senator. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I mean I can’t specifically remember.
Mr.Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right away, as soon as Jack was in jail?
Mr.Senator. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how much Jack owned.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?
Mr.Senator. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words, I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in it?
Mr.Senator. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible interest in it?
Mr.Senator. Not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Earl?
Mr.Senator. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all this happened.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t know him before that?
Mr.Senator. Never seen him before in my life.
Mr.Hubert. What about Sam?
Mr.Senator. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.
Mr.Hubert. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?
Mr.Senator. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They always used to come to see him.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who they were?
Mr.Senator. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by name.
Mr.Hubert. Did they come frequently?
Mr.Senator. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or police in uniforms.
Mr.Hubert. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of entertainment?
Mr.Senator. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.
Mr.Hubert. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little items ascoffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost? He gave them that?
Mr.Senator. Yes; that was the nature of it.
Mr.Hubert. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They didn’t pay that, if they came socially?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. You have been on the door yourself?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any instructions on that?
Mr.Senator. No, they didn’t pay entry.
Mr.Hubert. Did they pay for drinks?
Mr.Senator. They had a special rate.
Mr.Hubert. What was it?
Mr.Senator. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they may bring them.
So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a special price for drinks.
Mr.Hubert. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?
Mr.Senator. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage, they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.
In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups, whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that area, he always let them in free.
I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course, these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.
Mr.Griffin. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?
Mr.Senator. No, I think he rented it.
Mr.Griffin. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that operation outthere——
Mr.Senator. Not owning the building.
Mr.Griffin. You are not talking about any real estate.
Mr.Senator. No, no.
Mr.Griffin. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He had tables and chairs?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And a piano maybe?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about ownership?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Right?
Mr.Senator. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise or the things in the place, not only the building.
Mr.Griffin. How about the right to get the profits if there were any? Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the profits, or did they share it in some way?
Mr.Senator. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of my—wasn’t any of my business.
Mr.Griffin. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?
Mr.Senator. Either that or put them in his pocket.
Mr.Griffin. Or put them in his pocket?
Mr.Senator. Yes, whichever he saw fit.
Mr.Griffin. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What would he do with it in the apartment?
Mr.Senator. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?
Mr.Senator. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.
I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until 3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.
Mr.Griffin. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t tell me his moves where he is going.
Mr.Griffin. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel Club?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t there too long.
Mr.Griffin. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?
Mr.Senator. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be. It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know. It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork. I am only guessing.
Mr.Griffin. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas Club?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think so.
Mr.Griffin. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the Vegas Club?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club every night?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar with that part.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his pockets?
Mr.Senator. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?
Mr.Senator. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?
Mr.Griffin. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names. Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities Bank and Trust Company?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about the National Bank of Commerce?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. The American Bank and Trust Company?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. The Mercantile National Bank?
Mr.Senator. No; see, if you can find one on—continue.
Mr.Griffin. All right, the Industrial National Bank.
Mr.Senator. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.
Mr.Griffin. But not the Mercantile National Bank?
Mr.Senator. If he did I didn’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the other the Mercantile?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?
Mr.Senator. If he did I didn’t know.
Mr.Griffin. But you only heard of one?
Mr.Senator. I heard of the Merchants.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the receipts from the Vegas Club?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?
Mr.Senator. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds at the Vegas were handled?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or what part Jack got of it?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you were when you heard of the assassination?
Mr.Senator. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch, and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio we listened to.
Mr.Hubert. That was in downtown Dallas?
Mr.Senator. No; I was uptown.
Mr.Hubert. Had you seen the Presidential parade?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t see it at all.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t.
Mr.Hubert. Did he comment about the President’s visit?
Mr.Senator. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning, you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him the night before?
Mr.Senator. Yes; the night before.
Mr.Hubert. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming the next day?
Mr.Senator. We talked about that. We talked about the President was coming in, you know.
Mr.Hubert. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember what he said.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas.
Mr.Senator. Well, we were happy that he was coming.
Mr.Hubert. Jack was too?
Mr.Senator. Yes; coming into Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?
Mr.Senator. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not, but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas generally, and his business in particular?
Mr.Senator. No; there was no comment on that.
Mr.Hubert. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the parade?
Mr.Senator. No; he didn’t mention that.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have previously said in a statement that you saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then, you went to bed?
Mr.Senator. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning when he woke me up.
Mr.Hubert. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?
Mr.Senator. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.
Mr.Hubert. He is at the club?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were sleeping.
Mr.Senator. You are talking about Thursday?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.
Mr.Senator. Thursday night—the President came in Friday.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?
Mr.Senator. Yes; his usual routine.
Mr.Hubert. You were asleep I guess when he got back?
Mr.Senator. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not.
Mr.Hubert. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of the President?
Mr.Senator. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday morning.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after the death?
Mr.Senator. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go home on Friday night at all?
Mr.Senator. Sure.
Mr.Hubert. What time?
Mr.Senator. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before I went home. I always buy a paper, too.
Mr.Hubert. Was Jack home then?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the President’s death at all?
Mr.Senator. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around.
Mr.Hubert. Did you try to contact him?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?
Mr.Senator. When I said “around”?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mr.Senator. Around town, no particular place.
Mr.Griffin. Were you going from bar to bar?
Mr.Senator. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was brooding, a sad affair.
Mr.Hubert. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment on Friday night before you got there?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. So you went home and went to bed.
Mr.Senator. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?”
Mr.Hubert. A full-page ad?
Mr.Senator. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?”
Mr.Hubert. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You saw that before you saw Jack?
Mr.Senator. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.
Mr.Hubert. You went to sleep, I take it?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What happened next?
Mr.Senator. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning.
Mr.Hubert. That was who?
Mr.Senator. Jack Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?
Mr.Senator. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs. Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.”