Mr.Senator. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at the trial, you know.
Mr.Griffin. Larry?
Mr.Senator. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; he was at the trial?
Mr.Senator. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to him?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness bench one day.
Mr.Griffin. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?
Mr.Senator. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Did he say anything to you about why he left?
Mr.Senator. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. During the afternoon.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say that you left the house around noon on Saturday.
Mr.Senator. Something like that; yes.
Mr.Griffin. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have to do on Saturday?
Mr.Senator. I can’t imagine. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have anything to do in connection with your business?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t work that day.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the groceries you bought?
Mr.Senator. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not. I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an afternoon, or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on Saturday?
Mr.Senator. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.
Mr.Griffin. Would that have been in the afternoon?
Mr.Senator. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.
Mr.Griffin. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having spent some time at the Burgundy Room?
Mr.Senator. I know I was there that day, you know.
Mr.Griffin. But I mean Saturday afternoon.
Mr.Senator. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was there, and that we went some other place.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Downeybefore——
Mr.Senator. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.
Mr.Griffin. And wereyou——
Mr.Senator. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or 8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we went to this other place.
Mr.Griffin. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in the afternoon and the evening?
Mr.Senator. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.
Mr.Griffin. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?
Mr.Senator. Was I troubled when I went with him?
Mr.Griffin. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?
Mr.Senator. You mean Saturday afternoon?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. You mean did I think about it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or why he wanted to snap the pictures.
Mr.Griffin. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and had coffee with him that morning?
Mr.Senator. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out to see that Earl Warren sign?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?
Mr.Senator. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a shaken-up day for me.
Mr.Griffin. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about that particular episode?
Mr.Senator. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.
Mr.Griffin. How do you feel that way?
Mr.Senator. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign, whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these things, why should they be.
Mr.Griffin. How wouldthat——
Mr.Senator. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren? Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I don’t know the answer.
Mr.Griffin. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the Southland Hotel to have coffee.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these had bypassed my mind.
Mr.Griffin. Two signs?
Mr.Senator. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the newspaper ad, when they took my statement.
Mr.Griffin. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I guess it was onMonday——
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification, this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that advertisement and about the sign?
Mr.Senator. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to know why somebody would want to impeach him.
Mr.Griffin. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing, or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy of the trial was going to be?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Talking with people?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately, that this would be a justification?
Mr.Senator. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the President was coming into town that day?
Mr.Griffin. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what he was going to do with this information that he got?
Mr.Senator. No; none whatsoever.
Mr.Griffin. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a newspaper?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?
Mr.Senator. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the why.
Mr.Griffin. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?
Mr.Senator. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches and things of that nature there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. When did you first learn about that?
Mr.Senator. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it was related to me, over the President.
Mr.Griffin. You didn’t tell any of that tothe——
Mr.Senator. To who?
Mr.Griffin. To the police department when you talked to them on the 24th, did you?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember. See, you mustunderstand——
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead.
Mr.Senator. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being, wouldn’t it shake a human being up?
Mr.Griffin. I take it the police department asked you to tell them everything you knew about what Jack had done.
Mr.Senator. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty well shaken up at that time.
Mr.Griffin. Did you feel that his being at the police department might hurt him?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.
Mr.Griffin. Now youalso——
Mr.Senator. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. You also didn’tmention——
Mr.Senator. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time, being shook up.
Mr.Griffin. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave the police department on the 24th——
Mr.Senator. Didn’t what?
Mr.Griffin. In the statement that you gave to the police department on the 24th.
Mr.Senator. I didn’t mention what?
Mr.Griffin. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from Little Lynn.
Mr.Senator. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you. I was in a shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it.
Mr.Griffin. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in your own mind that those events which youomitted——
Mr.Senator. Was I trying to hide something?
Mr.Griffin. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack.
Mr.Senator. I wasn’t trying to hide anything. I definitely was not trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated, any individual in an event like this, now I can’t speak for anybody else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can’t remember things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that instantaneous—I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good.
Mr.Griffin. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some of these things, but you didn’t remember some other things which were just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that impeach Earl Warren sign—that must have just stood out as a sore thumb to you.
Mr.Senator. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things thatI mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too. There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide.
Mr.Griffin. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense.
Mr.Senator. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the moment, when all these things were happening.
Mr.Griffin. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400,” and I will sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on November 24, 1963.
Mr.Senator. Is that the man who had me? I don’t remember who it was.
Mr.Griffin. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true.
Mr.Senator. That is, that is my signature.
Mr.Griffin. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the statement you signed?
Mr.Senator. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed by an agent of the FBI.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent?
Mr.Senator. Sure.
Mr.Griffin. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI, the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you learned of Oswald’s being shot just as you walked in the door of the Eatwell Restaurant.
Mr.Senator. Just as I walked in? No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall that?
Mr.Senator. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn’t walking in the door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee.
Mr.Griffin. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr.Senator. No; before.
Mr.Griffin. It was before you learned that?
Mr.Senator. Right. I called him—wait, wait. No; that is right. I did. But I wasn’t home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter, one of his little girls.
Mr.Griffin. And that was before you learned thatRuby——
Mr.Senator. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot—that is when I called him.
Mr.Griffin. Directing your attention to the FBI’s report on November 24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked in the door.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn’t remember that on November 24?
Mr.Senator. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said it.
Mr.Griffin. Did she say it to you?
Mr.Senator. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It was pretty loud.
Mr.Griffin. Did they have a TV set on?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t think so. I don’t know. She got her information through either the phone, or they may have had a little radio. I don’t remember just what it was, because I wasn’t looking directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she was behind the counter, and I was sitting.
Mr.Griffin. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the person who shot him?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn’t long.
Mr.Griffin. I’m going to mark a document which I have before me in the following manner: “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator, Deposition Exhibit 5401,” and I am going to sign my name to it.
This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr. Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time.
I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects what you told them at that time. If it doesn’t, why, will you point out the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can’t correct it.
Mr.Senator. Shall I make little notations here?
Mr.Griffin. Are there some places you want to change?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Before you mark on it—why don’t you dothis——
Mr.Senator. It will only be a dot.
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you just take this paper and make some notes on it and then we can go back.
Mr.Senator. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point them out to you.
Mr.Griffin. Have you got some changes to make there?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I had better go over it with you though.
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you read the sentence or sentences that you would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on to the next one. Go right ahead and read it.
Mr.Senator. It says here, “He had only casual association with him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until approximately 3 years ago.”
Mr.Griffin. That is on page 296 of the FBI report?
Mr.Senator. Yes. Now it wasn’t 3 years ago at the time. This was 2 years ago.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up until 2 years ago?
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Senator. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or somewheres in there of 1962.
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you change with your pen, strike out the word “three.”
Mr.Senator. On this?
Mr.Griffin. On that. And write “two.”
Mr.Senator. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. And then initial it and date it.
Mr.Senator. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these lines. Shall I put my initial after it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. You won’t be able to see it. These writings here don’t coincide.
Mr.Griffin. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your relationship with Jack. Up until approximately March or April of 1962 when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack?
Mr.Senator. No; I think maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When you say closer, this is when I first started to—you know, when I was down andout and I first started to work for him, and I was living with him. You see what I mean?
Mr.Griffin. This is March or April of 1962?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say either February, March, or April, something like that. I don’t remember that I was living with him, because previous to that I still didn’t see him any more than I ever did in the past.
Mr.Griffin. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom you saw more frequently than Jack?
Mr.Senator. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything but that up until that time.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis?
Mr.Senator. Actually I couldn’t see him frequently. Before that I was traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn’t home every weekend. There were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week from coming home. It all depends on the location you are—if you are too far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all depends, you know.
Mr.Griffin. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the people that you saw on a social basis?
Mr.Senator. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you, these people I don’t see every day, or like, you know, say I see them today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions I saw Don Taber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These were all rare, mind you, then. See, I did more meeting. I met a lot of people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody has a favorite hangout.
Mr.Griffin. And that Burgundy Room was yours?
Mr.Senator. This is mine.
Mr.Griffin. For how long has it been your favorite hangout?
Mr.Senator. Ever since I came to Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. This is a place you would go almost every day?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say more so than any other place.
Mr.Griffin. Do you go there almost every day?
Mr.Senator. No, not every day, no.
Mr.Griffin. Two or three times a week?
Mr.Senator. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends there—after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered, transient or local, from 5 on.
Mr.Griffin. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club would be to a wealthier man?
Mr.Senator. That is of that nature, yes.
Mr.Griffin. And there were certain other people who used to hang around there?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was Jack Ruby one of the people?
Mr.Senator. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in. Jack is not a drinking man.
Mr.Griffin. So would it be fair to say that for recreation andpastime——
Mr.Senator. Just as one of my hangouts.
Mr.Griffin. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a few drinks?
Mr.Senator. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in. Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I knew.
Mr.Griffin. But you are not a man who spends his sparetime——
Mr.Senator. Not particularly, no.
Mr.Griffin. Playing golf or tennis?
Mr.Senator. No. I’ll tell you—the only habit I got is I like to cook, this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may recreate in—I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why Jack Ruby didn’t like me. You are not writing that?
Mr.Griffin. You mean that you like to experiment with food?
Mr.Senator. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in kitchens. I done this for a long time.
Mr.Griffin. But you worked in a number of restaurants?
Mr.Senator. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years ago, but I wasn’t classified as any cook or any thing of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook?
Mr.Senator. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mixthings——
Mr.Griffin. Salads?
Mr.Senator. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that, or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people can’t make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited many times, and I do put on a good rib plate.
Mr.Griffin. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place for dinner?
Mr.Senator. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I mean this—I relished, I have been invited over to people’s homes. Jim Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it was fun.
Mr.Griffin. But Jack didn’t appreciate your cooking?
Mr.Senator. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn’t eat it because he classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before.
Mr.Griffin. This is when we were having lunch.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I didn’t pull out an avocado salad today as I did yesterday.
Mr.Senator. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good enough answer.
Mr.Griffin. Now there are some other things in that statement or that interview report that I think you want to change.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. These don’t look like my words. I don’t say that some of these aren’t factors, you know, but I don’t see, I don’t think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth.
Mr.Griffin. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to bring that out.
Mr.Senator. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next sentence. It says, “Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years.” Now I don’t even know what that means.
Mr.Griffin. I understand it.
Mr.Senator. I don’t understand it.
Mr.Griffin. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer to Ruby but you couldn’t explain to them why you were closer to Ruby.
Mr.Senator. Let me read this to myself again? This don’t make sense to me. Maybe I don’t understand what I am reading, what I have read to you. Do you want to go over it with me?
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Senator. This part I read to you, start there, “Thereafter.”
Mr.Griffin. “Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby.”
In other words, they are saying that you couldn’t explain why you felt closer to Ruby in this recent period.
Mr.Senator. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that closer, just moving in? It doesn’t necessarily mean being close to him. I mean, this I don’t understand. What do they mean when they say—how can you just move in with somebody and say, say you are that close to him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by being close to him? If you had just gone in and had always known himcasually——
Mr.Griffin. Isn’t part of the reason that you felt closer to him in recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw him more often.
Mr.Senator. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know.
Mr.Griffin. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI interview report of your having moved in with Ruby.
Mr.Senator. In so many words, though, doesn’t it sound the same to you? “... than in the past 3 years”.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; but it doesn’t mention that in the past 3 years you moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn’t lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the fact that you began to see him every day, whereasbefore——
Mr.Senator. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place, but that is the way I am interpreting it.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s let it stand for the record, then, that you did not automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with him.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Your moving in with him was not the result of having established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack’s taking you in when you didn’t have a place to live and didn’t have any money. Is that it?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to know, of these things.
Mr.Griffin. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place to live and so he invited you in with him?
Mr.Senator. I identified myself that way.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you could move in?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I don’t remember just how it was, but I was not in good condition, I was hurting.
Mr.Griffin. And had there been something about Jack before that that had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would respond like this?
Mr.Senator. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this, and after that, and I have seen it.
Mr.Griffin. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had taken in other people or done things for other people?
Mr.Senator. The example number one is the chap that I told you is deceased—I don’t say this man was hurting, but he was still living in Jack’s apartment for free.
Mr.Griffin. Martin Gimpel?
Mr.Senator. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack’s apartment for free. I don’t say he was hurting for money, which I don’t know because I didn’t know his business.
Mr.Griffin. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew Gimpel had been living with him?
Mr.Senator. I didn’t know Gimpel that way, just from running across him.
Mr.Griffin. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be willing to take you in?
Mr.Senator. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn’t know what was going to happen, buthe took me in. I have seen other instances like this chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds.
I don’t know what it was, but this kid here didn’t have the right time. He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back.
And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once—Larry didn’t have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, “Larry, we’ll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front teeth.” This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to grab a bite.
Mr.Griffin. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment.
Mr.Senator. The new place.
Mr.Griffin. You made thedecision——
Mr.Senator. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn’t even ready.
Mr.Griffin. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in there?
Mr.Senator. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know.
Mr.Griffin. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months?
Mr.Senator. But not at this place.
Mr.Griffin. No; at another place.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the man better.
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure.
Mr.Griffin. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job you wanted to move out from him?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of the rent.
Mr.Senator. Particularly one. I told you he didn’t keep a very clean place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a beggar—beggars can’t be choosers, that is an old saying, right?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out, something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me. But in the overall picture he would rather live alone.
And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of the apartments he may live in, and I don’t know how many he has lived in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night, 2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he had a rough bringing up and growing up.
Mr.Griffin. Did he talk about that to you?
Mr.Senator. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know, the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn’t know how drunk his father used to be, but I understand he was ahabitual——
Mr.Griffin. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him?
Mr.Senator. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the kids were all separated,things of that nature, when they were young. One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A lot of these things I never even knew.
Mr.Griffin. So this conclusion that you are nowdrawing——
Mr.Senator. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of the things he did.
Mr.Griffin. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know about that when you were living with him?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much, very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There, of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back all these years.
Mr.Griffin. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit 5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what was told to the FBI at that time.
Mr.Senator. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet”.
Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing, Dallas, Tex.”
Mr.Griffin. Yes; well, that is inaccurate?
Mr.Senator. You know that.
Mr.Griffin. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?
Mr.Senator. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit that. I don’t think I did.
Mr.Griffin. I think the record is sufficiently clear.
Mr.Senator. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t lying.
Mr.Griffin. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is inaccurate.
Mr.Senator. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:
“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”.
This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him 5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a day or two?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. It never happened?
Mr.Senator. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out.
Mr.Griffin. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview took place?
Mr.Senator. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day, could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would have been shaken up as well as I.
Mr.Griffin. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually happened.
Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there” I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.
Mr.Senator. Now here is a point:
“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and Commerce in downtown Dallas.”
Now this was before I got to him.
Mr.Griffin. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?
Mr.Senator. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.
Mr.Griffin. But you had known Jack?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I have known him; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you?
Mr.Senator. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my time.
Mr.Griffin. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he only had the Vegas?
Mr.Senator. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club, I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you either.
Mr.Griffin. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think that this deposition will clear this up.
Mr.Senator. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the individual’s name, but I know it now.
“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator was unable to furnish this individual’s name.”
But we have talked about that name today.
Mr.Griffin. Joe Slayton.
Mr.Senator. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.”
Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the conditions.
Mr.Griffin. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to disclose this?
Mr.Senator. No. You mean to hold back on them?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. That is the way it sounds when you say that.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.
“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now.
Mr.Griffin. Do you want to go on to the next page?
Mr.Senator. I am through with that page.
Mr.Griffin. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.
Mr.Senator. What is I.E., the initials?
Mr.Griffin. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring to is,
“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat the sameon things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.”
In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.
Mr.Senator. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew” comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business expressing political opinions, and so forth?
Mr.Senator. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you.
Mr.Griffin. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no businessexpressing——
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things, things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow.
Mr.Griffin. This language which we have been quoting arises in a paragraph that starts out:
“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even discussed political matters.”
Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else.
Mr.Griffin. But you would say that now your present opinion is that you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him feel that he shouldn’t have this kindof——
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way.
Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t laugh these things off.
Mr.Griffin. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent lack of interest in politics?
Mr.Senator. I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?
Mr.Senator. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things.
Mr.Griffin. What is his primary interest?
Mr.Senator. Show business.
Mr.Griffin. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important interest to him?
Mr.Senator. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human being.
Mr.Griffin. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example?
Mr.Senator. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it.
Mr.Griffin. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other paragraphs that you would change or correct.
Mr.Senator. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually carried a fairly large sum of money.”
Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this is the point I want to bring out:
“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home.”
This was an everyday occurrence.
Mr.Griffin. He carried it back and forth every day?
Mr.Senator. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment or did he keep it in his car?
Mr.Senator. He kept it in his apartment.
Mr.Griffin. He kept it in the apartment?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in a moneybag?
Mr.Senator. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.
Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the Carousel Club, or don’t you remember?
Mr.Senator. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching every move Jack Ruby made.
Mr.Griffin. How many times did you see it?
Mr.Senator. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking for a bag all the time.
Mr.Griffin. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up occasionally to the club?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up. If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.
Mr.Griffin. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in a bag?
Mr.Senator. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in the bag.
Mr.Griffin. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.
Mr.Senator. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these things, shoulder? I have never seen one.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?
Mr.Senator. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.
Mr.Griffin. What part is that?
Mr.Senator. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you happen to use that term?
Mr.Senator. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say “This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit more than anything else.
Mr.Griffin. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally you are not a homosexual.
Mr.Senator. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that Georgie still loves women yet.
Mr.Griffin. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a homosexual, but I am notsuggesting——
Mr.Senator. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong, but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.
Mr.Griffin. You are talking about your affection for women?
Mr.Senator. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr. Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted. It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing, Mr. Alexander said to me:
“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.”
He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?”
I said, “Two.”
He says, “What are the other rooms?”
I says, “There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room.”
Then he come out with this live one, which I grasped right away. This is what I call it.
“Where do you keep the TV?”
I didn’t particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand.
Mr.Griffin. What did you say?
Mr.Senator. I said, “In the living room,” where it is. But I caught the drift right away. And I wasn’t happy about that because I couldn’t open my mouth because I was on the witness stand.
Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn’t you?