Mr.Griffin. Yes; very clear.
Mr.Senator. I can’t quote the rest of it because he put it down there.
Mr.Griffin. Go ahead, I am interested.
Mr.Senator. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching TV. Is that easy?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Isn’t that logical?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base something like this?
Mr.Griffin. I take it he didn’t follow it up in any way?
Mr.Senator. Not the second time.
Mr.Griffin. He didn’t attempt to discredit your statement that it was kept in the living room?
Mr.Senator. No. And when he didn’t bring that up at all on the witnessstand——
Mr.Griffin. At the trial?
Mr.Senator. At the trial. There is something here; I don’t know what it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time I came home that Friday night—he said between 9 and 10.
Mr.Griffin. When do you think it was?
Mr.Senator. I would say between 10 and 11.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home at, say 10 o’clock? Did you work the rest of that day?
Mr.Senator. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day.
Mr.Griffin. You were at Jack’s?
Mr.Senator. That was a day I will tell you I don’t think a living soul in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I’ll tell you that is what it was; it was a weeping day for the city.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from Jack’s when you first heard this news?
Mr.Senator. I think I went downtown; did a little deskwork again. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Talk out loud and then we can correct it.
Mr.Senator. I am not sure what it was. I don’t remember anymore. I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around downtown in the area. No particular place.
Mr.Griffin. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern?
Mr.Senator. Probably so; probably so.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday?
Mr.Senator. I can’t recollect. It was a very sad day.
Mr.Griffin. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us. I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can’t think where you were that day, and who you talked to.
Mr.Senator. In all probability I probably spoke to many people downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been.
Mr.Griffin. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the Burgundy Room?
Mr.Senator. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally.
Mr.Griffin. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat, or something of that sort?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say that.
Mr.Griffin. And you wouldn’t have been in a department store or a drugstore, someplace like that?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t think so. I mean I don’t know. A department store; definitely I haven’t been in there.
Mr.Griffin. We are talking about someplace where you could get a drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you spend all day watching the events on television?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t. I think I was in the downtown area. I think I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken. I don’t remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown uptown. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day?
Mr.Senator. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to be drunk or anything of that nature, I don’t think I was drunk that day.
Mr.Griffin. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor, from what you said before. You feel that you are?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. So that I wonderif——
Mr.Senator. In other words, I got to be careful when I’m driving because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but good trouble, and I don’t want to get in that condition.
Mr.Griffin. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it isn’t a fair impression todraw——
Mr.Senator. If it isn’t what?
Mr.Griffin. If I couldn’t fairly infer that you had been drinking most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although you don’t feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren’t in control of yourself.
Mr.Senator. Oh, I was in control of myself.
Mr.Griffin. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time you heard the President was shot until you went home that night?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would this have anything to do with your failure to recollect what you had done that day?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think I was that tight; no. I just don’t remember where I navigated that day.
Mr.Griffin. Can you suggest again—and I keep throwing the same question back to you—can you think or suggest someone that you saw that day?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if I saw—I keep on bringing up this attorney all the while, Jim Martin. I don’t know if I saw him, called him, or went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home, between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don’t know if I met him that day or not.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you have dinner that night?
Mr.Senator. I don’t even think I had dinner that night.
Mr.Griffin. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Why was that?
Mr.Senator. No particular reason why. I just didn’t; that is all. I didn’t even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when I am out I am free.
Mr.Griffin. Jack wasn’t somebody that you did things with; is that fair to say?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t do much with him; no.
Mr.Griffin. And part of the reason was Jack didn’t drink? Wasn’t that probably part of it?
Mr.Senator. Jack don’t like me drinking and Jack don’t like to see me go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don’t know if you have ever been there while you were down there.
Mr.Griffin. No; I haven’t.
Mr.Senator. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that you can go to.
Mr.Griffin. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much?
Mr.Senator. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer and he will say, “You are drunk, aren’t you?” He will pull this on me. He has pulled it many a time on me.
Mr.Griffin. Does he feel that way about other people?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I don’t know about other people. But he didn’t like me drinking. He said it to me many a time.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal habits as much as Jack appears to have done?
Mr.Senator. In all reality, it didn’t bother me. I didn’t care what he said.
Mr.Griffin. He sort of treated you like you were his son?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; no. He just didn’t like to have me drink; that is all. He felt I was wasting—believe it or not, here is a man with a club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn’t afford to be throwing my money away.
Mr.Griffin. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in you, or was this just Jack’s desire to dominate people?
Mr.Senator. Dominate? I don’t know if “dominate” would be the word. But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a friend.
Mr.Griffin. Is that because of anything you had done for him?
Mr.Senator. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he helped me out.
Mr.Griffin. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence.
Mr.Senator. Yes; you see, I don’t argue back with him. I don’t know if he likes this or not, you know. I don’t want to argue with him. So I “Yes” him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn’t bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn’t bother me because with me I knew therewas no harm that would be done. But the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it.
Mr.Griffin. OK; let’s go on there on page 298 from where we were.
Mr.Senator. It says, “Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily keeps at the Carousel home with him.” He brings this same dog home every night. And when it says, “Ruby and Senator arose,” it is like we woke up at the same time. That is not so.
Mr.Griffin. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the correct statement of this would bethat——
Mr.Senator. I woke up before he did.
Mr.Griffin. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keepsSheba——
Mr.Senator. Always brings Sheba home every night.
Mr.Griffin. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the club every day?
Mr.Senator. Both forth and back, forth and back.
Mr.Griffin. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?
Mr.Senator. Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.
Mr.Griffin. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we don’t have to make any entry on the page.
Mr.Senator. Of course, the other is what we discussed before about the signs that you have on this page.
Mr.Griffin. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?
Mr.Senator. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. “He estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been shot.” This is not so.
Mr.Griffin. This was after you sat down?
Mr.Senator. I had been sitting already.
Mr.Griffin. Is that on page 300 or page 299?
Mr.Senator. 299. Now he got this twisted.
Mr.Griffin. Would you read the part that is twisted.
Mr.Senator. Yes. “Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby. He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew.” We went through that. Do you want to go through that again?
Mr.Griffin. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have told the agent that?
Mr.Senator. No; when the waitress said that she heard Oswald had been shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home in a short while.
Mr.Griffin. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin, you couldn’t get ahold of him, but you talked to his daughter.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How old is his daughter?
Mr.Senator. He had three of them, and I don’t remember which one answered. Of course, one is too young. I don’t know which one he went to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11.
Mr.Griffin. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11?
Mr.Senator. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling? Did you leave word?
Mr.Senator. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George called.I am not sure if I did or not. I don’t want to say I did and I don’t want to say I didn’t, because I don’t remember. No; I didn’t leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left right after this call.
Mr.Griffin. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying?
Mr.Senator. “He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his car and drove to the attorney’s house to wait for his return.” This I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of coffee, when this girl hollered out again, “the Carousel, Jack Ruby,” which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don’t I?
Mr.Griffin. That is all right. Go ahead.
Mr.Senator. Let me run this through. I don’t catch the last part of this: “He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of the clubs in which Ruby was interested.” Does that mean, in other words, the clubs that Jack owned?
Mr.Griffin. That is right.
Mr.Senator. All right; OK.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion:
“Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day.” That refers to Friday.
Mr.Senator. November 24.
Mr.Griffin. November 22.
Mr.Senator. Twenty-second; yes.
Mr.Griffin. “But does know that, because of the shooting of the President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business. Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister’s home for awhile.” Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister’s?
Mr.Senator. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I heard.
Mr.Griffin. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he had some recollection that he had been at his sister’s home for awhile. You didn’t mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th——
Mr.Senator. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now, come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that.
Mr.Griffin. You didn’t mention the synagogue. You didn’t mention that he had been to the police station. You didn’tmention——
Mr.Senator. You must understand, like I told you before, you know, when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken condition and nervous—and you can’t help but be nervous—so I may have slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn’t think of momentarily when he was questioning me.
Mr.Griffin. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you really didn’t know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn’t even tell you this on Friday or Saturday?
Mr.Senator. I didn’t see him Friday.
Mr.Griffin. Saturday morning, that he didn’t tell you Saturday morning that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told you that?
Mr.Senator. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How else would I have known that?
Mr.Griffin. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking with somebody or reading something.
Mr.Senator. Why would I want—let me ask you this—why would I wantto leave out that he went to the police station—if I were able to think of it—or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went to the synagogue?
Mr.Griffin. That is why I am suggesting that you didn’t know that on the 24th, that it wasn’t until later.
Mr.Senator. I didn’t know it on the 24th. I didn’t know it. I didn’t see him. I didn’t know it.
Mr.Griffin. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to the synagogue.
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; I did.
Mr.Griffin. You learned about that sometime after the 24th.
Mr.Senator. No; I think I learned it before that.
Mr.Griffin. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have remembered.
Mr.Senator. You asked what makes something slip a man’s mind.
Mr.Griffin. Wouldn’t you be more likely to remember he had been to the police station than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he had done there, wouldn’t that have been something that you would have remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn’t you? You would have asked the man “What did you see down at the police station? Who did you talk to down there?” After all, that was right down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going on.
Mr.Senator. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is an incident I just happened to think of.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Senator. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn’t been distributed, and—I don’t know—I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of sandwiches were they?
Mr.Senator. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, that he bought in the delicatessen.
Mr.Griffin. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Does that recall anything further to your mind?
Mr.Senator. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed this. It don’t matter who is questioning me, this is the first time. Now why didn’t I think of this?
Mr.Griffin. This is not so extraordinary.
Mr.Senator. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me.
Mr.Griffin. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period oftime——
Mr.Senator. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I gather I can remember this part, this one here.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those sandwiches?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he had been to the police station and he had passed out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don’t know who. I don’t know who he passed them out to.
But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them made. Now why I did it I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from him, you asked him “Where did you get these sandwiches” and he said “I got them forthe men at the police station but they didn’t eat them”? Could that have been the conversation?
Mr.Senator. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister.
Mr.Griffin. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take the sandwiches to his sister?
Mr.Senator. That was sometime Friday.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you learn that?
Mr.Senator. From Jack.
Mr.Griffin. I suggestagain——
Mr.Senator. I didn’t see his sister.
Mr.Griffin. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask, well, you know, what was going on in the investigation.
Mr.Senator. I didn’t ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact, I don’t even know what part of the police station he was in, or any locale of the police station he was in.
Mr.Griffin. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody?
Mr.Senator. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it.
Mr.Griffin. Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the police station?
Mr.Senator. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I am not sure of this.
Mr.Griffin. But you don’t know whether you knew that on the 24th or not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember. I can’t say “Yes” or say “No,” or what rooms he was in. I don’t know just where he went at the police station.
Mr.Griffin. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat them up?
Mr.Senator. Well, if I didn’t eat but one or two I would be a fool, wouldn’t I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the windup was when he got around to home, he didn’t have that many left already.
Mr.Griffin. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw 8 or 10 in the paper bags.
Mr.Senator. Yes; but I can’t eat 8 or 10 sandwiches.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s take a break.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr.Griffin. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked, and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and I have marked a further “Exhibit 5403,” which exhibit is a copy of an FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963.
Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963. Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you would want to make in Mr. Moore’s report, and I specifically point out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether Mr. Moore’s report is an accurate report of what you told him on that day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this under the same procedures and formalities that we havehad since the beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is still in effect.
Mr.Senator. Now on this here, of course, this goes back many, many years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a person.
Mr.Griffin. Point out what it is.
Mr.Senator. “About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida.” Now, Sebring, it is a city, not people.
Mr.Griffin. You didn’t leave with the Sebring family?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.?
Mr.Senator. Went to Sebring, Fla.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with?
Mr.Senator. The name was Eggens.
Mr.Griffin. They were neighbors from Gloversville?
Mr.Senator. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of course, today their whereabouts—I know the mother is deceased—and where they are I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in a zillion years.
“On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned serial number 12006042.” I probably should comment is off there. It doesn’t really make any difference. “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War Second.”
There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In fact why don’t you take your pen and make that correction right on the piece of paper?
Mr.Senator. How can I get it on there, they are so close together.
Mr.Griffin. Cross out something and write it in.
Mr.Senator. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force?
Mr.Griffin. Is there something that is inaccurate in there?
Mr.Senator. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb Squadron.
Mr.Griffin. So what you want to do is write out in the margin.
Mr.Senator. Do you want me to cross this out?
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron. Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was.
Mr.Senator. 22d Bomber Group.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to indicate where you want it to go.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know how important it is, if you want the Fifth Air Force before or we can eliminate it.
Mr.Griffin. In order to identify that group that you werein——
Mr.Senator. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that.
Mr.Griffin. Write Fifth Air Force in.
Mr.Senator. Do you want that?
Mr.Griffin. Sure.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on top here?
Mr.Griffin. Sure.
Mr.Senator. Fifth Air Force comes first.
Mr.Griffin. So we have edited this to read “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War II.” Why don’t you initial and date the changes?
Mr.Senator. Is one sufficient for the whole?
Mr.Griffin. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it is April 22.
Mr.Senator. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it somewheres on something.
Mr.Griffin. We will try to find that. I think you did make that change. You didn’t date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401.
Mr.Senator. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and say “He was honorably discharged” or just “discharged satisfactory.”
Mr.Griffin. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably discharged.
Mr.Senator. There is a difference.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You have added on page 2 of Agent Moore’s report in the first sentence the word “Honorably” so that that sentence reads “He was honorably.”
Mr.Senator. I should say honorably discharged.
Mr.Griffin. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September 9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former wife is now married.
Mr.Senator. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I didn’t spell it right.
Mr.Griffin. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last sentence, you have added the words “Texas Postcards and Novelty, Dallas, Texas” before the words “Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York” so that that sentence reads: “He is presently a salesman of colored postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York.” Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard and Novelty Company and DexterPress——
Mr.Senator. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards.
Mr.Griffin. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter Postcard?
Mr.Senator. No: I don’t sell them for Dexter.
Mr.Griffin. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. From Dexter Press?
Mr.Senator. Dexter are the ones who make prints.
Mr.Griffin. Let me add the word “from.” I have added the word “from.” I will hand you back Mr. Moore’s report. Why don’t you continue on through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and then we will make the changes.
Mr.Senator. This “He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a place called Jacques,” now shall I put in front oflunch——
Mr.Griffin. It is understood you didn’t have anything to eat but had something to drink. A cocktail or something?
Mr.Senator. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that changed?
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you cross out “lunch” and say “two bottles of beer.”
Mr.Senator. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don’t even remember. I ain’t going to question this. You know that I just changed that.
Mr.Griffin. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles of beer?
Mr.Senator. “Two beers.” Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you want that corrected?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; if you would.
Mr.Senator. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the street.
Mr.Griffin. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine.
Mr.Senator. Do you want that initialed?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; if you would please.
Mr.Senator. “He returned to the apartment and went to bed approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that day.” It is not recall seeing him, I didn’t see him.
Mr.Griffin. Why don’t you change recall to didn’t.
Mr.Senator. Now I stated here for the point of information before that“Jack told him” which is me “that he had been at his sister Eva’s place,” said that he had bought food for her.” In other words, when he bought all this stuff there he bought her some too.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth before he went to Eva Grant’s house on Friday night?
Mr.Senator. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them, are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? I don’t even know myself.
Mr.Griffin. It depends. Of course I wasn’t at this interview.
Mr.Senator. I know that. This is why I asked you.
Mr.Griffin. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our court stenographer is here.
Mr.Senator. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not easy.
Mr.Griffin. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people.
Mr.Senator. I am certain they are.
Mr.Griffin. They are trained to take notes.
Mr.Senator. I am certain they are.
Mr.Griffin. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are mistakes that crop up.
Mr.Senator. Who isn’t fallible somewhere or another. I think there is a misinterpretation of this word that “he had bought food for her.” Brought food for her.
Mr.Griffin. Would it make any difference?
Mr.Senator. Not in all reality, I don’t know, because when he bought all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don’t know but apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he couldn’t go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had brought over there.
Mr.Griffin. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don’t make any reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station.
Mr.Senator. Maybe I forgot that.
Mr.Griffin. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible—now this interview was not under the same kind of pressure?
Mr.Senator. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind.
Mr.Griffin. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn’t mentioned anything about going to the police station?
Mr.Senator. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff, when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags, this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody that I spoke to, see.
Mr.Griffin. Now keep in mind the distinction between whatJack——
Mr.Senator. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through completely.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn’t possible that you learned about Jack’s going to the police station after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that you didn’t tell this to the police and you didn’t tell it to the FBI and you didn’t tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about the sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the FBI, and you knew about going to Eva’s, but at that point you didn’t know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station.
Mr.Senator. The only way that I can really express this, it could be a probability and then it couldn’t, in other words, I can’t answer the question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I say on that?
Mr.Griffin. All right, this is what we are trying to get at.
Mr.Senator. I still ain’t sure if I did or didn’t mind you.
Mr.Griffin. Because the thing that I want to explore here iswhether——
Mr.Senator. But I knew about the sandwiches the next day because I saw them.
Mr.Griffin. You knew about the sandwiches, right?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at is whether you knew about Jack’s visit to the police station and I am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th about Jack’s visit to the police station, you would have had some further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said to you, “George, I just was down to the police station and I took some sandwiches down there” on this particular day, why you would have said to me, “Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of investigation?” That visit to the police station would have been a more important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don’t seem to recall any such conversation.
Mr.Senator. It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can’t answer you now. I just don’t remember now. I was sort of under the impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can’t say yes or no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did or didn’t.
Mr.Griffin. You don’t have any clear recollection?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Of any conversation about his being down at the police station?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t remember, so in other words this is a thing I would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even sure of. “Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were a Jew he should be ashamed of himself.”
Mr.Griffin. What is your feeling about that now.
Mr.Senator. I don’t ever remember telling him that. Now I don’t say that I did or didn’t, but I don’t know why I had the reason to say that he didn’t spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute “that he did not spell his name as a Jew” I just can’t figure why I would say that because Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name. This is the part I don’t understand on this.
Mr.Griffin. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar about this ad?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was.
Mr.Griffin. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it.
Mr.Senator. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper.
Mr.Griffin. Thursday before the President arrived?
Mr.Senator. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Something makes you think it was Thursday night?
Mr.Senator. Maybe, I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. What is that that makes you think that?
Mr.Senator. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don’t remember. Was it Friday?
Mr.Griffin. Of course, I don’t know.
Mr.Senator. It was a Friday’s paper.
Mr.Griffin. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on Thursday night, does it not?
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper the night before?
Mr.Senator. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if the paper is out at that hour.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what you did the night before the President came to Dallas?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know what I did Thursday at all. I don’t know what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around.
Mr.Griffin. Read what he has and then let’s talk about it.
Mr.Senator. “They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell.” Then it continues, but the thing is this is reversed.
Mr.Griffin. What you are saying is that you went to the post office before you had coffee?
Mr.Senator. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s get it straight then as to what actually happened there.
Mr.Senator. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right except the reversal.
Mr.Griffin. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order.
Mr.Senator. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to say this was first and the other was last. I don’t know how to do it.
Mr.Griffin. You read the text that is improper.
Mr.Senator. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what you mean?
Mr.Griffin. From the point that it gets out of order.
Mr.Senator. What I just read where it was out of order?
Mr.Griffin. The only two things out of order, let me understand this, are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland Hotel?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after you went to the post office?
Mr.Senator. That is right. Now do you want some change in here?
Mr.Griffin. No; I think that is clear.
Mr.Senator. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete thing is right now.
Mr.Griffin. We have corrected it on the record?
Mr.Senator. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference?
Mr.Griffin. Well, if youhave——
Mr.Senator. He says about which is all right. He has got a time there.
Mr.Griffin. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate.
Mr.Senator. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that right?
Mr.Griffin. That is right.
Mr.Senator. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe I ain’t reading this correct. “He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.”
Mr.Griffin. Yes. What is unclear about that?
Mr.Senator. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the police station. This is the way it sounds to me.
Mr.Griffin. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station, you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual basis and intended to come back.
Mr.Senator. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba with him. That I know.
Mr.Griffin. Now do you draw any particular significance about his having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning——Mr.Senator. I’ll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I’m not reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me.
Mr.Griffin. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the way I readit——
Mr.Senator. You read it. Start with “He said.”
Mr.Griffin. All right, let’s read the sentence before that.
“Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon. Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car. Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the police station he went out of his head.”
Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby intended to come back from the police station before he went down there.
Do you still feel that way?
Mr.Senator. That he intended to come back?
Mr.Griffin. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended—are you saying that if Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police station, he wouldn’t have taken Sheba along?
Mr.Senator. That isn’t what I said.
Mr.Griffin. That is not what you said?
Mr.Senator. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the police station with Sheba.
Mr.Griffin. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all. What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald.
Mr.Senator. I don’t think he would; no.
Mr.Griffin. But do you think he might have anyhow?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that.
Mr.Griffin. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there?
Mr.Senator. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no plans. Now the moneypart——
Mr.Griffin. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned, let’s assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along with him?
Mr.Senator. No; I definitely don’t think he would ever take the dog with him.
Mr.Griffin. What would he have done with the dog?
Mr.Senator. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is.
Mr.Griffin. Why do you say that?
Mr.Senator. What?
Mr.Griffin. Why do you say that?
Mr.Senator. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog, and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes.
Mr.Griffin. Is there any reason whyJack——
Mr.Senator. No particular reason.
Mr.Griffin. Jack wouldn’t figure that you or somebody else wouldn’t have picked that dog up later and taken care of it?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Or isn’t it possible that Jack just at this point forgot about the consequences to the dog?
Mr.Senator. I can’t even answer that.
Mr.Griffin. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba with him doesn’t prove one way or another whether he planned to kill Oswald?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think he planned nohow.
Mr.Griffin. I know you don’t think that, but I want to know what significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn’t prove conclusively one way or another that he had a plan or didn’t have a plan.
Mr.Senator. I can’t conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow.
Mr.Griffin. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to kill Oswald or not? Would you stillsay——
Mr.Senator. I would say it would still be of the same nature having the dog. I don’t think he would do anything like that.
Mr.Griffin. You just don’t think he planned to kill Oswald?
Mr.Senator. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I can’t visualize anything like this.
Mr.Griffin. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement this language: “Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car.” Now I take it from that language that you are saying that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald?
Mr.Senator. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn’t have had any cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don’t know. First of all, he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don’t say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let’s suppose he had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club.
Mr.Senator. What safe?
Mr.Griffin. Didn’t he have a safe there?
Mr.Senator. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe, I’ll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did you ever see these little round things that fit intothe——
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever used the safe I don’t even know.
Mr.Griffin. And did Jack ever put hismoney——
Mr.Senator. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you can’t get to it.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his money in the bank?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car?
Mr.Senator. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his pocket, and he had it around the house.
Mr.Griffin. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in the safe?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I know he leaves some at home.
Mr.Griffin. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?
Mr.Senator. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever kind of lock you call it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room. See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there, see.
Mr.Griffin. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry all of his money on his person and in his car?
Mr.Senator. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far as not carrying it all in his pocket.
Mr.Griffin. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than keeping it in the house.
Mr.Senator. This I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Now you say this was the longest time that you can remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; I never said that.
Mr.Griffin. What did you mean to say?
Mr.Senator. I never said that.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000 or $3,000?
Mr.Senator. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him. This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.