Mrs.Rich. Yes, I did. At the—I think it was called just The Chalet.
Mr.Hubert. Where was it located?
Mrs.Rich. Again I can’t remember. Again it was on the other side of Dallas. It was outside—in fact, I don’t thing it was right in Dallas proper. It wasn’t in Dallas proper, I know.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of work did you do there?
Mrs.Rich. This was a dining place. And I was a hostess. And in the place they had this little booth, and they had a dart game, and you could throw darts and win prizes, and I also ran that place for them.
Mr.Hubert. Who was your employer there?
Mrs.Rich. Again, I cannot recall his name.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you there?
Mrs.Rich. Until I left Dallas—probably a month. Then we left to go back to New Orleans.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you unemployed—that is to say, what period was there between the time you left Ruby and the time you got this employment at The Chalet?
Mrs.Rich. Between the time I left Ruby and the time I went to The Chalet, about 5 or 6 days. And then I quit The Chalet a little before we left. And, of course, prior to going to Ruby’s I wasn’t employed. Then there was a period of about a week, week and a-half, while I was at Ruby’s, all of a sudden he decided he didn’t need a bartender. Then I am recalled back.
Mr.Hubert. You left The Chalet about a week before you left Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. Probably a little more than that. Maybe 2, 2½ weeks.
Mr.Hubert. Why did you leave The Chalet?
Mrs.Rich. Well, for one thing he was going to close down for renovations. And then he said, “no, I am not; I am going to sell out.” And he decided to close it down anyway.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work for a place called the Theater Lounge?
Mrs.Rich. Barney Weinstein—yes, I did.
Mr.Hubert. When?
Mrs.Rich. That was during the time I had left Ruby and then went back to Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work for the Theater Lounge?
Mrs.Rich. No more than a week or two. I forgot all about working for Barney. I have to laugh. His brother owned the other stripping place in town, right next to Ruby, upstairs. And they had this amateur show, these amateur strippers. Barney was going to promote me as a stripper. No thanks.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, before we get into any other matter, I want to go back to the letter that you handed me which was dated October 25, 1963. It is addressed, “To Whom it May Concern:”
It purports to be signed by Oscar Kistle, chief deputy, district attorney. It is on stationery of the office of the District Attorney of Sacramento County. I have had a Xerox copy made of it. I have returned the original to you, is that right?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I am marking the Xerox copy of that document for identification by writing on the right-hand margin the following words; to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and in order that the record may show that there is no misunderstanding about it, I wonder if you would sign your name as I have mine.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I would. Note for the record that on the left-hand margin I signed “Nancy E. Perrin Rich.”
Mr.Hubert. I think the letter that you handed me was in an envelope, which was plain, other than the fact that it had in the left-hand upper corner the words “Office of District Attorney, Room 204, Courthouse, Sacramento 14, California”. I am marking a Xerox copy of the original of that envelope, which has been returned to you, for identification by writing on the Xerox copy the following, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit 2, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and I ask you to sign yours as you did with reference to Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs.Rich. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s signature.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy E. Perrin Rich Exhibits 1 and 2 for identification.)
Mr.Hubert. Thank you, ma’am.
Mrs.Rich. At this time I would also, pertaining to my statement concerning working for various police organizations, introduce into this informal hearing, so to speak, another piece of material given to me by the Oakland Police Department while working on a case for them, under the name of Julie Anne Cody. Also under this name is a police record purposely devised by the Oakland Police Department for obvious purposes, to coincide with this card that I am about to hand to Mr. Hubert—also, how shall we say it—falsified, made up by the Oakland Police Department, for obvious purposes. This was to get me into a particular place—I had to have a police record—all done with the sanction of the Oakland Police Department. May I also note that on that card the dates and the names are fictitious, intentionally so. The card was in reality printed in, I believe, November of 1963.
Mr.Hubert. You say you want to introduce this card into this proceeding?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. And I will tell you why. If you note the date on that, some of my statements—Let’s say that this came into light, and I didn’t give the explanation of why and what this meant—the dates would conflict with some of my testimony. And I want this understood that this was purely done to, shall we say, consummate a case for the Oakland Police Department. I was not actually in California the dates on that card.
Mr.Hubert. When was this card issued to you?
Mrs.Rich. In reality, this card was issued in November of 1963. I was working on a grand larceny case.
Mr.Hubert. You want this card back, the original?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, as soon as we have a Xerox copy made of the card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other.
Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was present and there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban refugees.
Mrs.Rich. Your statement is partially correct.
Mr.Hubert. Will you tell us what is actually correct?
Mrs.Rich. At the first meeting there were four people present. There was a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget whether he was Air Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it seems to me he was regular Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin, myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I don’t remember his last name. Dave C.—I think it was Cole, but I wouldn’t be sure.
Dave came to my husband with aproposition——
Mr.Hubert. There were only four people present?
Mrs.Rich. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender for the University Club on Commerce Street in Dallas. I became associated with him and subsequently so did my husband. Well, at first it looked all right to me. They wanted someone to pilot a boat—someone that knew Cuba, and my husband claimed he did. Whether he did, I don’t know. I know he did know boats. So they were going to bring Cuban refugees out into Miami. All this was fine, because by that time everyone knew Castro for what he appears to be, shall we say. So I said sure, why not—$10,000. I said that is fine.
Mr.Hubert. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to receive $10,000 for your services?
Mrs.Rich. Well, I was incidental.
Mr.Hubert. No; I would like to know.
Mrs.Rich. I say I was incidental. My husband was.
Mr.Hubert. Your husband was to receive $10,000?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who told him so?
Mrs.Rich. The colonel.
Mr.Hubert. Where did this meeting take place?
Mrs.Rich. In Dallas at an apartment building. Again, I can describe that darned building to a “T” and I couldn’t tell you what street it is on.
Mr.Hubert. Would you describe it for us, please?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; it was sitting—if I may do it in diagram.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what section of the city it was?
Mrs.Rich. No; this I don’t. You come along—let’s say this is your main street, that the apartment building set on. We have an apartment building, not setting facing the street, but with the side towards the street. A hill slopes up. There is a path that kind of winds around. There are flowers and gardens here; and in them I believe there is a little fountain—and in them was lights—illuminating the gardens; and you have to come up a little hill, and walk around—I am not sure whether there was a gravel path or not, or whether it is flagstone—and into the building here. And it was a double deck, I believe—perhaps a triple.
Mr.Hubert. Apartment house?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How many apartments, roughly speaking?
Mrs.Rich. I could not say how many. The standard apartment building for Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, at this point let us do this: You have handed us the card that you referred to in your testimony previously. We have now had a Xerox copy made of it. I am handing you back the original. For the purpose of identification, I am marking the Xerox copy, front and back, as follows, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” and I am signing my name below that. And on the reverse side of it, which appears on another Xerox page, I am marking for the purpose of identification the following: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3-A, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name. And I ask you, please, to sign both documents below my name so that the record will show that we have been speaking of the same document.
Mrs.Rich. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3. Will you note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3-A.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibits Nos. 3 and 3-A for identification.)
Mr.Hubert. Now, a moment ago you were testifying concerning an apartment house at which you and your husband met a colonel and another man by the name of Dave C., I think you said.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; that is an initial—C. Dave took us there.
Mr.Hubert. I am going to mark that document for the purpose of identification “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I am signing my name, and I ask you to sign your name on it, if you please.
Mrs.Rich. I didn’t mean for this to be an exhibit. Will you note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 4. Also note for the record the writing I am doing after signing is merely designating what the lines mean.
(The document referred to was marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)
Mr.Hubert. Am I correct in stating that prior to the writing you have just put on the document, Exhibit No. 4, there were merely lines which indicated a street and an apartment and a little path, showing a garden. And that sincethe document has been identified, you have written in all that appears in handwriting?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember on what floor this apartment was that you visited?
Mrs.Rich. I believe the first.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember whether it was to the left or the right as you went in?
Mrs.Rich. There was no question of left or right as such. It was—you just walked in. There was no hallway to indicate left or right, if that is what you are referring to.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, this apartment actually opened on the path?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. How many rooms did it have?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t recall whether it was a one or two bedroom.
Mr.Hubert. Can you give us any other description of the apartment building, first of all?
Mrs.Rich. The apartment itself wasn’t too well furnished.
Mr.Hubert. Was it a brick apartment?
Mrs.Rich. I believe it was. Either brick or stucco.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know the color of it?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t. But I believe it had colored doors. Now, I could be mistaken.
Mr.Hubert. And the apartment itself was one or two bedrooms, and I think you say it was not well furnished. Do you recall anything about the interior of the apartment that would be significant?
Mrs.Rich. Let me clarify that. When I say not well furnished, I should have said sparsely furnished. It looked like an unfurnished apartment that he had just thrown some furniture into and not too much of it. I believe I remember he said something about he just moved in; hadn’t finished it.
Mr.Hubert. Did it have lamps in it?
Mrs.Rich. I believe it did. I think it had one lamp on the table.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall anything about the furniture that was there?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; it was, I believe you call it Danish modern.
Mr.Hubert. Was it upholstered?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t recall. It was typical cheap apartment furniture. I believe it had plastic upholstery.
Mr.Hubert. I think you said you went there at night.
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. About what time?
Mrs.Rich. It was after dark. Probably 9 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall how long it took you to drive from where you were living to this place?
Mrs.Rich. No; I do not.
Mr.Hubert. How did you get there?
Mrs.Rich. In Dave’s car. Now, again, I said four people present. I should have counted—he had a girl with him. She wasn’t in it or anything, just some girl he had along for the evening. She was never part of it. In fact, I think she stayed in the car.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you in the place?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, probably half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most.
Mr.Hubert. What was the general discussion?
Mrs.Rich. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and listened. The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat, the colonel could obtain various things, and nothing specific was mentioned on what the various things were at that time. And we were going to go and pick up—they were deciding where to pick them up—pick up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to the main coast, meaning Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at that time, as I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought it was a good idea.
Mr.Hubert. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; it was.
Mr.Hubert. Who mentioned it?
Mrs.Rich. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved for this sort of operation?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t express that view, of course?
Mrs.Rich. No; I didn’t say anything. I just kept quiet.
Mr.Hubert. How were matters left at the end of that meeting?
Mrs.Rich. That there were more people involved, and that we were to attend a meeting at some later date, of which we would be advised.
Mr.Hubert. Were you advised?
Mrs.Rich. We were.
Mr.Hubert. Did another meeting take place?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; it did.
Mr.Hubert. How long after the first?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2.
Mr.Hubert. At the same place?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was it at night?
Mrs.Rich. It was.
Mr.Hubert. How did you get there then?
Mrs.Rich. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us. At that time, Dave and my husband and I were in our car.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Tell us what happened.
Mrs.Rich. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel and another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would describe her, steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was arather——
Mr.Hubert. Did you know her name?
Mrs.Rich. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don’t recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow, who looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter.
Mr.Hubert. Were you introduced to him?
Mrs.Rich. I was introduced to everyone.
Mr.Hubert. Who else was there?
Mrs.Rich. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple of other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them looked rather dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American, and Dave, my husband, and myself.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what happened at that meeting.
Mrs.Rich. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some kind of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke up and said, “Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before we”—meaning my husband and myself—“get into this. I would like to know what we are getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly have a say in this matter.” Then it came out—boom—quite blank. We were going to bring Cuban refugees out—but we were going to run military supplies and Enfield rifles in.
Mr.Hubert. Who made that statement?
Mrs.Rich. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made the statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be the head of it and seemed to do all the talking.
Mr.Hubert. He was in uniform?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he was.
Mr.Hubert. Could you describe what the colonel looked like?
Mrs.Rich. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a little younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look older. As I recall, a rather slightly built man—and I would not swear to it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any other characteristics?
Mrs.Rich. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was he in summer uniform?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he was.
Mr.Hubert. Short sleeves?
Mrs.Rich. If my memory serves me; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter?
Mrs.Rich. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group of people.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting officially, in his official capacity?
Mrs.Rich. No; he was not acting officially.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mrs.Rich. Because of certain statements that were made—statements such as that the guns would have to come in via Mexico, meaning the Enfield rifles. Statements like “We have been taking stuff off of the base for the last 3 months getting prepared for this”—meaning military equipment, I suppose small arms, or explosives, et cetera, as I understood it.
Mr.Hubert. He was also in uniform on the first occasion?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. The same type of uniform?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times you saw him he was in uniform?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Summer uniform?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So at that meeting it came out that the project had two purposes. One was to bring arms in, and the other was to take refuges out.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; to make money both ways. Then it became crystal clear why so much money was to be paid for the pilot of the boat.
Mr.Hubert. And how was that meeting left?
Mrs.Rich. Well, at that time when he said that, my first thought was “Nancy, get out of here, this is no good, this stinks.” I have no qualms about making money, but not when it is against the Federal Government but let’s play along and see what happens. I said, “All right, we will go. But you can take the $10,000 and keep it. I want $25,000 or we don’t move.” It was left that the bigwigs would decide among themselves. During this meeting I had the shock of my life. Apparently they were having some hitch in money arriving. No one actually said that that was what it was. But this is what I presumed it to be. I am sitting there. A knock comes on the door and who walks in but my little friend Jack Ruby. And you could have knocked me over with a feather.
Mr.Hubert. That was at the second meeting?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, what facts occurred to give you the impression that there was a hitch with respect to money?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, just that they were talking about, well, first of all when I say we—a group of people were supposed to go to Mexico to make the arrangement for rifles but “Well, no, you can’t leave tomorrow”—they dropped it. And just evasive statements that led me to believe that perhaps they were lacking in funds.
And then Ruby comes in, and everybody looks like this, you know, a big smile—like here comes the Saviour, or something. And he took one look at me, I took one look at him, and we glared, we never spoke a word. I don’t know if you have ever met the man. But he has this nervous air about him. And he seemed overly nervous that night. He bustled on in. The colonel rushed out into the kitchen or bedroom, I am not sure which. Ruby had—and he always did carry a gun—and I noticed a rather extensive bulge in his—about where his breast pocket would be. But at that time I thought it was a shoulder holster, which he was in the habit of carrying.
Mr.Hubert. He was in the habit of carrying?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. Either a shoulder holster or a gun stuck in his pocket. I always had a gun behind the bar. That is normal.
Mr.Hubert. You had seen it at his shoulder?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; which was normal—because he made the bank deposit. I made the bank deposit a couple of times for him and carried a gun when I made it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he show any signs of recognition of you?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he glared at me and I glared back, as much as to say to each other what the heck are you doing here.
Mr.Hubert. Had you told the colonel and Dave what your name was prior to that?
Mrs.Rich. At that time we—I think it will be obvious to you gentlemen the reason—we were going under Jack Starr and Nancy Starr.
Mr.Hubert. Do you mean that is the name that Ruby knew you under?
Mrs.Rich. No. Jack Ruby knew me as Nancy Perrin.
Mr.Hubert. And he knew your husband was Robert Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. But like I say for obvious reasons we used the name Jack and Nancy Starr.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, you told the colonel and Dave that yourname——
Mrs.Rich. No; Dave knew our real name.
Mr.Hubert. Thecolonel——
Mrs.Rich. The colonel and everyone else involved, with the exception of Ruby and Dave.
Mr.Hubert. They knew you as Nancy Starr?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. Also let me state that my husbands’ nom de plume as a writer was Jack Starr. I have also published under Nancy Starr.
Mr.Hubert. All right. What happened?
Mrs.Rich. Well, they went in and came out and the bulge was gone, and everybody was really happy, and all of a sudden they seemed to be happy. So it was my impression Ruby brought money in.
Mr.Hubert. They walked out of the apartment?
Mrs.Rich. Ruby left. He didn’t stay. He wasn’t there for more than 15 minutes at the most.
Mr.Hubert. You say all of a sudden the bulge was gone?
Mrs.Rich. The bulge was gone from Ruby when he left.
Mr.Hubert. Did he leave the room?
Mrs.Rich. He left the apartment.
Mr.Hubert. I mean from the time he came in until he left.
Mrs.Rich. He came in. To everyone else except my husband and I he said, “Hi.” He and the colonel rushed into—I forget whether it was the kitchen or the bedroom. They were in there about 10 minutes. I heard some rather loud undistinguishable words. They closed the door. When they came out everybody looked relieved. And Ruby just walked out.
Mr.Hubert. And said nothing to you?
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Hubert. You say the money was forthcoming?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get it?
Mrs.Rich. No; we didn’t. First they had to pay for this pugnacious-looking fellow and one of the Latins who were going down to Mexico to make arrangements and pay for the guns. All of a sudden just before Ruby come in they couldn’t go, and right after Ruby left they were on the plane the next morning, so to speak.
Mr.Hubert. You did not see Jack Ruby hand any money to anybody?
Mrs.Rich. No; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did you see any money handed to anyone else.
Mrs.Rich. No; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. So the way it was left then, these people, the others, were going to go toMexico——
Mrs.Rich. Actually they were going to leave not the day following, but the day after that—2 days later they were going to leave for Mexico. I just assumed that that was money that Ruby brought in. Because before that they could not go, they did not have the finances, and after he left they did.
Mr.Hubert. Did they say they did not have the finances, or was it your assumption that they did not?
Mrs.Rich. When someone is stalling around, and not setting a concrete date and saying, “Well, we have to wait” and that it will get here soon, and statements like that that I hear in conversation, then all of a sudden in comes a man with a bulge and hands it to the colonel in the back room, so to speak, and all ofa sudden, boom, the reservations are made then and there, I think that is a pretty good assumption.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, those are the facts that you observed upon which you base the assumptions that you have made.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. And the big sigh of relief, so to speak, afterwards.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did you then ask about your portion of the money?
Mrs.Rich. At that time it was to be decided, as I say, among the bigwigs. I had asked for $25,000.
Mr.Hubert. Was that before Ruby came in?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; in fact it was just a few minutes before he knocked on the door. They decided they did not know, and they were going to have a meeting—there were some other people involved higher up than they were. They would have to talk it over with them. At that time I had it in my mind I would go ahead and play ball—and I was stalling when I asked for the $25,000—that I would notify the Federal authorities. As I say, bringing the refugees out is one thing. Running in guns is another thing, for a Communist country which at that time it was.
Mr.Hubert. How long did that meeting last?
Mrs.Rich. They were still going when we left. And we were there about 2½ hours.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you and your husband?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Dave remained behind?
Mrs.Rich. He remained. Well, actually at that point business was over, and it just became a party. Neither my husband nor I drink, so we left.
Mr.Hubert. How did you leave it with them? Who was going to make the next move?
Mrs.Rich. We were to be notified as to the time and place of the next meeting and as to the decision on upping the ante, so to speak.
Mr.Hubert. They did not reject your offer of $25,000?
Mrs.Rich. It was to be discussed.
Mr.Hubert. $10,000 was all right.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; $10,000 was offered.
Mr.Hubert. $25,000, which was your counter offer, had to be discussed.
Mrs.Rich. That’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. And they told you they would discuss that and let you know.
Mrs.Rich. With some other people that were higher up.
Mr.Hubert. They told you they were higher up?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; the colonel said that they were higher up. I do not know the exact words.
Mr.Hubert. What happened then?
Mrs.Rich. I think his exact words were something like “I will discuss it with my bosses.”
Mr.Hubert. What happened after that?
Mrs.Rich. Well, about 3 or 4 days later we were told there was going to be another meeting to attend. Dave came over and told us. And we went.And——
Mr.Hubert. What happened at that meeting? First of all, who was there? How did you go?
Mrs.Rich. My husband and I.
Mr.Hubert. You went in your car?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of a car did you have?
Mrs.Rich. At that time I believe we had a 1956 blue and white Ford, if I am not mistaken.
Mr.Hubert. What license plate?
Mrs.Rich. Texas.
Mr.Hubert. Under the name of Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. All right. So you went with your husband. This was the third visit. Same place?
Mrs.Rich. Same place.
Mr.Hubert. Same apartment?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. No change in the furniture or decorations or anything of that sort?
Mrs.Rich. Not that I recall. I did not really notice.
Mr.Hubert. And this third meeting was about 4 or 5 days after the first?
Mrs.Rich. Three or four; after the second.
Mr.Hubert. How were you notified to come to the first meeting?
Mrs.Rich. To come to the first meeting?
Mr.Hubert. No; the third.
Mrs.Rich. Dave.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, Dave was the man who was in between, as it were.
Mrs.Rich. Well, Dave was in it. It was only because he was our friend.
Mr.Hubert. Was he to get anything out of it?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know; never did.
Mr.Hubert. Didn’t you discuss that with him?
Mrs.Rich. In that sort of business, you don’t discuss things, apparently.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you did.
Mrs.Rich. Well, not to that point. It wouldn’t have done me any good. I would have just gotten a “none of your business” answer.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t know that to be a fact, did you?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mrs.Rich. Well, call it intuition. I don’t know. I just wouldn’t have gotten an answer.
Mr.Hubert. Did you think that Dave expected some money?
Mrs.Rich. I suppose so. I never did get his position quite clear in my mind.
Mr.Hubert. He was the one that had brought you into the picture in the first place.
Mrs.Rich. Yes. It seemed to me like a front man for them, or something, or a recruiter almost.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you were concerned about the question of money involved in this thing, because as you said you let them know that you would have a say about this.
Mrs.Rich. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. But you did not discuss with Dave whether he was to be paid by you or the other side, as it were.
Mrs.Rich. Oh, no; he wasn’t to be paid by us. He brought us into the group, so to speak. The only thing I could make him out to be is a recruiter. Not to be paid by us. Nothing was ever mentioned of Dave going on any of these trips.
Mr.Hubert. But he was not to get a fee for finding you.
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know. I really don’t.
Mr.Hubert. And you did not raise the point with him.
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did your husband, to your knowledge.
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know. I didn’t ask him.
Mr.Hubert. Did it concern you that Dave might want some of the money that you were going to get?
Mrs.Rich. Not particularly, because at that time I had already made up my mind to go to the authorities with it.
Mr.Hubert. You had made up your mind when?
Mrs.Rich. After the second meeting, I found out they were going to run rifles in, and military supplies and things that apparently—again apparently were being pilfered from a base somewhere.
Mr.Hubert. You made up your mind at the end really of the second meeting.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; and then they said to run rifles and stolen military supplies in—that was it.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell your husband so?
Mrs.Rich. I did.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell Dave so?
Mrs.Rich. I did not.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to the authorities?
Mrs.Rich. I never had the chance.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us why?
Mrs.Rich. Well, we went back to that third meeting and apparently by mutual consent we got out of it.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what happened at the third meeting, including who was there.
Mrs.Rich. Well, who was there—there was the colonel, again this pugnacious-looking fellow who supposedly had gone to Mexico and been back; the Latin-looking fellow and the other one with him who might have been Latin wasn’t there—this woman was there. And another man I had not seen before, but whose face rang a bell. And I could not put a name to it.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever been able to do so?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I have.
Mr.Hubert. Who was it?
Mrs.Rich. Again, unless I am awfully mistaken, and I have yet to be able to find a picture of this man, but I recall seeing a picture and I know why I had associated him—of his father.
Mr.Hubert. Whose father?
Mrs.Rich. This particular man. Now, again, what I am about to say is not fact. It is something that I have never quite been able to get clear in my mind and never will, until I can find a picture. Unless I am very mistaken, the man at that third meeting was Vito Genovese’s son.
Mr.Hubert. He was not introduced as such?
Mrs.Rich. He was introduced as Tony. That was all.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know Vito Genovese?
Mrs.Rich. No; I never did.
Mr.Hubert. But you knew his picture.
Mrs.Rich. I had seen his picture.
Mr.Hubert. You thought there was a resemblance between that picture and this man?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. For a week this bothered me. And all of a sudden it came crystal clear.
Mr.Hubert. What became clear?
Mrs.Rich. That unless I was way off base, that is who it was. And I do know that a lot ofpeople——
Mr.Hubert. It was a week after the third meeting?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. I had been trying to put a name to that face.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, what else happened at the third meeting?
Mrs.Rich. Well, No. 1, the raise of ante was turned down. The colonel asked us if we would accept $15,000. My husband started to say something. I hushed him up and said “No.” I said, “I don’t know. I want some time to think about it.” So then the phone rang, and quite a lengthy conversation took place in the other room. I could not swear to who was on the other end of the phone, I have a pretty good idea. And the colonel came back out and said, “I don’t know. We are going to call this off for a while anyway. There has just been a change of plans. We are going to have to postpone this for 3 or 4 months. There will be one more meeting.” And at that time I stood up and I said, “Look, quite frankly I don’t believe we want any part of this at all.” All I wanted to do then and there was to get the devil out of there. I quite frankly was scared. So I grabbed my old man and we cleared out.
Mr.Hubert. But before clearing out, you told them you wanted no part of it.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; that was after the colonel had said there was going to be a 3- or 4-month delay and change of plans, and all this, that and the other. I did not quite figure that maybe things were kosher.
Mr.Hubert. How did they accept your suggestion that you would bail out?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know. We left. I wasn’t going to wait around to find out.
Mr.Hubert. So you never did report it to the authorities.
Mrs.Rich. No; I never did.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mrs.Rich. Well, my husband got picked up in Dallas, and I will never knowif this was true—he said it wasn’t—the policeman said it was. My husband had a .45. It was not registered.
Mr.Hubert. You mean a pistol?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; a service automatic. He had no right carrying it. He had it in the car. At that time he had a little old Nash Rambler station wagon of his own. This cop says when he picked my husband up my husband was standing in a little clearing beside the road there on the way out to Rayburn, brandishing a gun around saying he was going to kill somebody. He come to find out if it was a cop he was going to kill. I will never know to this day whether this was true or not.
Mr.Hubert. How long after the third meeting did this happen?
Mrs.Rich. That happened between the second and third meeting, if my time elements are right.
Mr.Hubert. Was your husband arrested?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he was. That is when this Sy Victorson I mentioned earlier in my testimony came in. He was an attorney. Perhaps not too honest in some of the things he does, but a good attorney. And he got my husband out of it. I had to pay some money. I will never know to this day whether it was true. I can’t believe it.
Mr.Hubert. And that event took place between the second and third meeting, is that right?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long after the third meeting did you leave Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, possibly 2 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. And what was the reason for leaving Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. The minute I put a name to that face I said to Bob, “We are getting out of here, and we are getting out fast, right now.” That was about 5 o’clock at night. At 8 o’clock we was packed in a U-Haul trailer and out.
Mr.Hubert. But you did not put the name to the face at the third meeting.
Mrs.Rich. No; not until about a week later.
Mr.Hubert. You then drove to New Orleans?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. But by then everything had fallen into place, because Ruby had had various characters visit him, both from New York, Chicago, even from up in Minneapolis.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mrs.Rich. I was introduced to some of them. I was asked to go out with some of them.
(At this point, a short recess was taken.)
Mr.Hubert. Now, I think we left off at the place where you were saying that subsequent to the third meeting Ruby was visited by certain people whose names I do not think you mentioned.
Mrs.Rich. No; this was prior. This is while I worked for Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. I see.
Mrs.Rich. I saw them come and go.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting?
Mrs.Rich. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting.
Mr.Hubert. I mean after the second.
Mrs.Rich. Oh, perhaps on the street.
Mr.Hubert. You did not converse with him about this matter at all?
Mrs.Rich. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man.
Mr.Hubert. And your reason for leaving Dallas, you say, wasthat——
Mrs.Rich. I smelled an element that I did not want to have any part of.
Mr.Hubert. And that element was what?
Mrs.Rich. Police characters, let’s say.
Mr.Hubert. Well, specifically it was, as I understood your testimony, that you suddenly identified the man who was at the third meeting, but not at any other, as possibly being the son of Vito Genovese.
Mrs.Rich. Possibly.
Mr.Hubert. And that you made that recognition, or you associated that man whom you saw with Vito Genovese, solely because you had seen a picture of Vito Genovese.
Mrs.Rich. That’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. And you came to the conclusion, then, that Vito Genovese and that group of people were involved in this matter.
Mrs.Rich. Within my own mind; yes. I thought—then I got thinking perhaps the higher-up that the colonel spoke of was perhaps the element I did not want to deal with that was running the guns in, and God knows what else.
Mr.Hubert. Why didn’t you report it to the authorities in the interval between the third meeting and the time you left Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. For the simple reason that I was hesitant about mentioning anything about my husband’s past. I did not know how much of what my husband had told me was true. I did not know how much of that he knew before I knew it, or how deeply he was involved in anything. And quite frankly if my husband was still alive, I would never have gone to the FBI.
Mr.Hubert. But you already told us at the end of the second meeting you had decided to tell the authorities.
Mrs.Rich. Not when I see that element there.
Mr.Hubert. But that element does notaffect——
Mrs.Rich. That element, if what my husband had told me was true, could have involved him a lot deeper than I suspected. And quite frankly I am not stupid enough, shall we say, to believe if I ever went to the authorities and that element was involved that I would ever live to tell a second story. And if my suppositions were true as to who the man’s identity really is—a combination of fear for myself and protecting my husband. And at that time I thought, I suppose many citizens do, well, let the next fellow do it, they will catch them eventually. I chose to close my eyes.
Mr.Griffin. You still have the fear of that element?
Mrs.Rich. No; I do not.
Mr.Griffin. Why is that?
Mrs.Rich. Well, since then I have become involved more extensively or intensively in police work—and I don’t know—perhaps I have got some sense in my head. I am just not. I was told to tell you this—by the way, I had better bring it in now—I don’t know if it has any direct result on this or not—but I was advised by Mr. Sweeny from the Secret Service and Mr. Fahety from the FBI to tell you of this. Aweek——
Mr.Hubert. When did Mr. Sweeny and Mr. Fahety tell you what you are about to tell us?
Mrs.Rich. Fahety said it on Monday—Sweeny said it on Monday.
Mr.Hubert. Last Monday?
Mrs.Rich. Yesterday. And Fahety told me Friday.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mrs.Rich. On the phone, when I talked to the FBI and the Secret Service, respectively.
Mr.Hubert. You did?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. They called you?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What did they tell you?
Mrs.Rich. Well, the FBI had called me to advise me of my receiving this letter, because Kennett had called them. And Sweeny called me to advise me of my tickets and transportation.
Mr.Griffin. Who called the FBI?
Mrs.Rich. Rod Kennett had opened the letter from you people. And at thistime——
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what they advised you.
Mrs.Rich. They advised me to tell you what I am about to tell you. A week ago last Saturday night I got home about 10:30, my brother-in-law had astroke——
Mr.Hubert. Let’s get the date of that.
Mrs.Rich. That would be a week ago last Saturday.
Mr.Hubert. Last Saturday was the 30th—the 23d of May.
Mrs.Rich. I believe so.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mrs.Rich. About 10:30 at night I got home. And some phone calls started.Again, let me say this may not or it may have a bearing on this. My life was directly threatened. I called the Hanover police—something I very seldom will do. But I panicked. They also phoned my husband’s office. He was working that night on dispatch at the cab company. They threatened my life with him. Sometimes they would call and say something, sometimes just hang up, sometimes just giggle. But they directly threatened my life. I thought perhaps it was something to do with various police organization work I had done, somebody had a grudge or something, or a crank, or anything. The phone calls stopped and they started again. I called the police department again. But then I was in hysterics.
Last Thursday I was on my way from my home up to North Attleboro, Mass. For approximately 30 miles I was followed, and subsequently, up until last Sunday I have had a tail on me. I notified the Mansfield police. They got the registration number and the name of the fellow following me. And he could give no reason why he was almost 60 or 70 miles from where he lived.
Mr.Hubert. And the Mansfield police have a record of that?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. Mansfield, Mass.
Mr.Hubert. And you also reported it to the policeof——
Mrs.Rich. Hanover—the phone calls; yes. May I also add at this time that due to a personal contact of mine, I will be doing, not for pay but as a favor, a little bit of looking into a few matters for the Mansfield Police Department for Chief D’Alefie, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. He recently contacted you?
Mrs.Rich. Well, the day I was up there we got talking and come to find out I could probably help him—in fact, me being here today stopped me from actually doing it.
Mr.Hubert. And the day you saw him was last Thursday?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And it was at that time he said he might be able to use your services?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; most definitely. And then again, come Friday, and I get notification of this, I was just wondering whether or not it added in. It may and it may not. But I was told to tell you. And I have done so.
Mr.Hubert. Well, what happened on Friday?
Mrs.Rich. No. I received notification, your letter.
Mr.Hubert. I see what you mean.
Mrs.Rich. And I wondered if it did not somehow have a bearing on this.
Mr.Hubert. But this tailing was after you got the letter, and after you had spokento——
Mrs.Rich. No; it started the day before. It was the same week. Thursday I started to be tailed. Rod got the letter Thursday, called the FBI, and God knows how many people he told. Thursday afternoon I picked up a tail.
Mr.Hubert. And you reported that to the Mansfield police.
Mrs.Rich. That was the first time I saw a policeman that I could pull over and say, “Get the guy, he is tailing me.” And he most definitely was.
Mr.Hubert. But there were two occasions when you observed that you were being tailed.
Mrs.Rich. No; from last Thursday up until Sunday night I had a tail on me.
Mr.Hubert. But you reported to the chief of police in Mansfield on Thursday that you had a tail on you.
Mrs.Rich. The Mansfield police is the one that caught the guy that was tailing me Thursday. I have not had a chance toreport——
Mr.Hubert. It was a different person, then, you think.
Mrs.Rich. The person that has been tailing me Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is not the same person that has been tailing me Thursday. They caught the guy Thursday.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of an automobile was it that was tailing you?
Mrs.Rich. Thursday?
Mr.Hubert. No. Well, Thursday first.
Mrs.Rich. Thursday was a black Pontiac, Massachusetts registration, a Mr. Alberto, from Hyde Park. They got him.
Mr.Hubert. That is his name, Alberto?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is his first name?
Mrs.Rich. I have forgotten.
Mr.Hubert. And the other car that has been tailing you?
Mrs.Rich. Plural.
Mr.Hubert. What?
Mrs.Rich. More than one.
Mr.Hubert. More than one individual, or more than one car, or both?
Mrs.Rich. Both. Friday and Saturday it was a green, I would say, probably 1961, 1962 Chevrolet.
Mr.Hubert. Green?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was it the same man?
Mrs.Rich. No; it was not. It was an older man. The fellow following me was probably maybe 21, 23 years old.
Mr.Hubert. That is the first fellow.
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Friday and Saturday it was the same man?
Mrs.Rich. Middle aged; I didn’t get a real good look at him—I would say probably in his forties. He rather looked to be a husky-looking fellow. And Sunday I picked up a tail, and it was a man and a woman. And I thought I recognized the girl, and I cannot be sure.
Mr.Hubert. Same automobile?
Mrs.Rich. No; it was not the same vehicle.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that automobile.
Mrs.Rich. The vehicle that was on me Sunday was a blue two-door hardtop. And I do not know the make of the car.
Mr.Hubert. And you have not reported those last incidents?
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Hubert. Well, they tailed you from where to where?
Mrs.Rich. Wherever I went. I would leave the house, and believe me I think I know when I am being tailed. When I pull over to the side of the road, and a car pulls up and doesn’t pass me—I will do this two or three times. And when I take a turnoff where nobody else will take, and the car is still there, I think they are tailing me.
Mr.Hubert. You tried to shake them?
Mrs.Rich. Precisely.
Mr.Hubert. And you were not able to do so.
Mrs.Rich. That’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. When you get to your house, did they park around it?
Mrs.Rich. The one time the man did, down on the bridge—the boundary line to our property is a river. And he sat down there and pretended to be looking in the water. And then I would see him down by Jordan’s, which is an eating house. Then he would be cruising around. And finally he would give up and go away. And in a couple of hours he would be back. Every time I took the car out, they were there.
Mr.Hubert. What about at night? Did you observe anything?
Mrs.Rich. I didn’t go out at night.
Mr.Hubert. Therefore you did not observe anything.
Mrs.Rich. No; I didn’t bother. Saturday I went to Maine—took my daughter down to my mother’s. I had the green car on my tail all the way to Maine and back.
Mr.Hubert. How did you get to Washington to come to this deposition?