Mr.Hubert. He was a handyman?
Mrs.Grant. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Hubert. He was a handyman or a porter?
Mrs.Grant. He was a porter.
Mr.Hubert. He quit the Vegas, didn’t he?
Mrs.Grant. No; he has always had another job and he worked for me and he came back—he wasn’t a very good porter. Truthfully, where he worked the last job for 19 years, he didn’t do actually any porter work—he was like the foreman over porters.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did he stop working for the Vegas at any particular date so that you didn’t see him thereafter?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he came back a couple of times—Jack knew him from the Dallas Athletic Club. That’s how I got him in the first place.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did he quit working for you back last fall sometime?
Mrs.Grant. Well, call it quits—he quit a few times, I called him and he came; he is not the most intellectual man; he can’t read or write; he can’t sign his own name.
Mr.Hubert. But, in any case, he stopped working for you?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I fired him a couple of times and he came back. I don’t know how you would—it isn’t any quitting—he never showed up. In fact, he worked for me right around New Year’s again.
Mr.Hubert. You had nothing to do, as I understand, with the operation of the Sovereign Club or the Carousel, but perhaps you can tell us something about how those two clubs came into existence and what you know about them?
Mrs.Grant. Well, first, I wasn’t in town to begin with, and when I did arrive here, that club was in existence.
Mr.Hubert. Which one was that?
Mrs.Grant. That was the Sovereign Club.
Mr.Hubert. That’s on Commerce Street, isn’t it?
Mrs.Grant. 1312½ Commerce.
Mr.Hubert. It’s an upstairs location?
Mrs.Grant. And I understand Jack has taken money from Earl and probably from my sister Mary and God knows who else in the family—there was none ofhis money in there—if he had a thousand dollars of his money, it was a lot of money.
Mr.Hubert. Was that a corporation, to your knowledge?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who are the owners of the stock?
Mrs.Grant. Well, from what I knew—Ralph Paul put in some money and that was another thing. He is quite a well-to-do man and I think he wanted Jack to be a success, whether he loaned or gave him money—I don’t know, but I know he was connected with the club, and Leo Torti, I think Jack owed him a little. Jack promised or owed him some money, made him part of the corporation and the first that started out it was with Earl being in it, but the State doesn’t allow an outsider to be in a corporation of that type when you carry a liquor license and I think they rehashed it later on and it went over a few times—it started out with the people I didn’t know, but ones I got to know later on was Joe Slayton and another fellow who I still don’t know who he is. There was three partners—Jack represented Earl, Earl gave him the money. Jack encouraged Earl to give him the money to go into this thing and to this day, and this is truthfully, I think he owes Earl $8,500 on that deal alone, and I’m making it low. I don’t know all the money Earl had given him from time to time.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know of the existence of a corporation called Sovereign, Incorporated?
Mrs.Grant. No; it’s called S & R Corp. or R & S. Yes; I know it now and I knew it when I came to town. He told me about it.
Mr.Hubert. But did you ever hear of a corporation called Sovereign Club, Incorporated, or Inc.?
Mrs.Grant. It could be the same club if it is. Now, since then Ralph was so disgusted when Jack got in all this trouble, he gave me the stock—his stock.
Mr.Hubert. Did he own that stock that you’ve got—do you know?
Mrs.Grant. I guess so.
Mr.Hubert. He gave you the certificates, you mean?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; there’s no name on them—I have it at home—I think it says 500 shares.
Mr.Hubert. The name was just in blank?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So, he didn’t have to endorse it over to you?
Mrs.Grant. I told him we were going to sell it and he said, “You endorse it over to the other person.”
Mr.Hubert. But he did not endorse it over, he just gave you the certificates?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he had a letter with the attorney—they went up to an attorney called Graham Koch [spelling] K-o-c-h. Anyway, he would know more about it than I do.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether Ralph Paul was holding that stock as owner or as security for money owed?
Mrs.Grant. Who knows?
Mr.Hubert. But do you know that?
Mrs.Grant. I know Ralph must have given Jack a lot of money that he never got back; believe me, let me tell you.
Mr.Hubert. Had Jack talked to you at all about any nightclubs that he proposed to open?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When did he first talk to you about that?
Mrs.Grant. Listen, now, he didn’t say he was going to open it, he says, “This would be a good private club,” and I think he took me then on a street here to Maple or Cedar Springs, and I guess he was going to ask Ralph Paul for money, to be honest, they were very close.
Mr.Hubert. Were you to be a part of it?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he didn’t tell me.
Mr.Hubert. How far had those plans gone, do you know?
Mrs.Grant. I looked at the outside of the building with him late at night—3 o’clock in the morning. Now, wait a minute, he had seen it—he had been in it—whatever this building is, and to this day I’d like to find it because someone else told me that.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know when that was that he showed that building to you?
Mrs.Grant. It seemed to me that it was in the summer and once early in the fall, or it could have been in October.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say what he was going to do with the Vegas and the Carousel?
Mrs.Grant. He didn’t say anything about the Vegas or the Carousel, but I’ll tell you, the Carousel in my estimation wasn’t making any money and it made him sick, and one of the reasons was he said that all the other clubs that sell liquor over the bar—you see, this State has very peculiar liquor laws and he said with a downtown club he could get a lot of members to go into this private club, but he did look at this building a few times because he talked about it and he is the biggest planner you’ve ever seen about something that don’t develop in his mind.
Mr.Hubert. Now, does the name Gene Schriver [spelling] S-c-h-r-i-v-e-r, mean anything to you?
Mrs.Grant. Is that a girl or a fellow; do you know?
Mr.Hubert. I don’t know.
Mrs.Grant. Well, we knew a Jean that worked for him as a waitress.
Mr.Hubert. Is the last name Schriver?
Mrs.Grant. Not that I know of. I knew a lot of girls that worked for them but I didn’t know their last names.
Mr.Hubert. What kind of work did she do?
Mrs.Grant. She was a waitress up there—a couple of years ago.
Mr.Hubert. How long did she stay?
Mrs.Grant. Well, she was there two or three times. She got mad at Jack and went over and worked for the Colony Club, if it’s the same little girl.
Mr.Hubert. Was she working with Jack at the time of the death of the President?
Mrs.Grant. Gee, I don’t know; I don’t remember who was working there. I know one cute little girl and I couldn’t think of her name unless it came up.
Mr.Hubert. What about Frank Goldstein?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he used to work with him selling subscriptions in San Francisco and when Jack was having trouble with the union—he hasn’t spoken to that fellow in 26 years and I believe it, because I’ve been on the west coast off and on, and Frank often asks, “Why don’t you write to me or call?” Last fall, in fact, in November—as late as November, I think Jack made the first call to Frank Goldstein because things were getting very bad.
Mr.Hubert. In your opinion, that phone call made to Goldstein was the first connection between Jack andGoldstein——
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Wait a minute, let me finish my question—in some considerable number of years?
Mrs.Grant. I know that for a fact because I used to go to the west coast and see Frank every 5 years—5 or 7 years and we talked about him and I don’t remember Jack or him ever saying they talked or wrote and Frank, I don’t think, could write.
Mr.Hubert. But as far as you know, he had no connection with him; is that right?
Mrs.Grant. No; but I do know he is a gambler and it is very well emphasized in San Francisco that he is a gambler.
Mr.Hubert. What about Benny Barrish?
Mrs.Grant. Benny—I heard he is a liquor salesman. I knew him when we were on the west coast. He’s a Chicagoan. He came out there in 1935 and as far as I know he’s a liquor salesman.
Mr.Hubert. When was the last connection you had with him?
Mrs.Grant. I saw him about 8 or 9 or 10 years ago when I went to San Francisco.
Mr.Hubert. You haven’t seen him or corresponded with him in any way by telephone?
Mrs.Grant. No, no.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if Jack ever knew him?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, sure. We knew him from Chicago as kids, but I’m sure Jackhasn’t—now, I won’t say positive I know Jack hasn’t for any reason, unless during this month—this particular month where he was having trouble early in the fall of 1963 with regard to amateur auditions at his club. He had contacted people all over the country trying to find out who knew the bigwigs in the union where the AGVA, you know, the big shots—who they were that run the union.
Mr.Hubert. Would Benny Barrish be the sort of person who might know something or be able to do something about that?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he gets around—he knew and knows people in the liquor business that have entertainments in San Francisco—it might be.
Mr.Hubert. As far as you know, Jack has made no connections out there in anyway for some time?
Mrs.Grant. In over 12 years—I would swear to this that he has had no connection out there since before the war and he has never been west of 100 miles of this area in that time. I have many, many times heard where people said he went to Las Vegas. He hasn’t been there only once with me and I think that was when we went to—from Los Angeles back and, of course, that must have been in 1937 or 1938, and he has not been back.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see Jack Ruby, your brother, or communicate with him every day, would you say, for a period of 60 to 90 days prior to November 24?
Mrs.Grant. Every day? I don’t say I saw him every day, but I would say I heard him on the phone three to five times.
Mr.Hubert. Would you be willing to say then that to the best of your knowledge he was not out of the city of Dallas during that period, that is tosay——
Mrs.Grant. Well, wait a minute, didn’t he go to New York in August?
Mr.Hubert. Well, I was going to except August at that point—that’s why I put it at 90 days.
Mrs.Grant. Didn’t he go to see a fellow, Joe Glazer, who was the head of a certain union?
Mr.Hubert. We have evidence that he did go to New York in August, but after that trip—let’s put it this way, from September 25 until November 25 just a period of 2 months, can you state to us now that to the best of your knowledge, Jack was not out of the Dallas area?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t remember him going out.
Mr.Hubert. Specifically, do you have any indication whatsoever of any kind that he might have gone to Las Vegas during this period?
Mrs.Grant. That—I swear.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you certainly would have known it if he had been gone, say 3 or 4 days, wouldn’t you?
Mrs.Grant. Well, for one more reason, he would advise me to keep it quiet and to collect the money to see that Andy does this or that.
Mr.Hubert. And there is nothing to indicate to you whatsoever that he was in Las Vegas during September or October or November of 1963?
Mrs.Grant. But I know he has made many calls to the same fellow, McWillie. I would say he made at least 10 calls in those 3 months.
Mr.Hubert. And what would be the reason for those calls?
Mrs.Grant. The same thing—Willie might know somebody in Las Vegas, since there is that type of entertainment, with these amateurs.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack tell you he was calling these various people because of this trouble with the union?
Mrs.Grant. It seemed to me—well, he was so bitter against Barney—I shouldn’t say this because—it’s just sickening—because they didn’t mean to hurt him—Barney and Abe Weinstein and he felt—the union sent him a telegram to quit these amateur auditions and they sent it to Abe and Barney, but they wouldn’t quit, but Jack figured they had an “in” with the big guys, you know, and Jack couldn’t get to this fellow, and he told me that he called McWillie. In fact, he may have called him even 3 days before that—he was just sick about this.
Mr.Hubert. Now, was McWillie, and I think you mentioned another person earlier, Lenny Patrick he called?
Mrs.Grant. Well, Lenny Patrick he called in Chicago—one time, and he wasnot there, and until he got his number—he called 15 different people from what I understand.
Mr.Hubert. What I was getting at is this—your explanation that if he called Goldstein and Barrish and McWillie and so forth, your explanation that those calls were made in connection with this difficulty about the amateur night thing—was that information obtained by you from Ruby, or are you just giving us your opinion of what those calls were about?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he has discussed this with me many times and I didn’t go to the downtown club too often, but when I did go there, it so happened either September or October on a particular Sunday night, whichever Sunday night it was—there are five Sundays and whichever Sunday it would be, and the Vegas Club would be closed on Sunday, he told me he had just gotten through talking to somebody and I’ll be honest about it, it just went in one ear and out the other, because I figuredthat——
Mr.Hubert. Well, you see what I am trying to get at and that is whether or not your statements that those calls were made in connection with this AGVA business derives from him directly or whether it is merely your opinion that those calls were about that?
Mrs.Grant. It is not only my opinion, we talked about it. We had discussed it and he had told me.
Mr.Hubert. So that that does come—that information, then does come directly from Jack?
Mrs.Grant. Well, and one other thing, when I called home, I spoke to my older brother and he knows Jack Yanover. My brother Jack did not know Jack Yanover like my older brother.
Mr.Hubert. That’s who?
Mrs.Grant. Hyman; he’s a friend of his and my older brother in this conversation said to me, “I told him to call Jack Yanover. Maybe he knows somebody because Yanover has some kind of saloon in Chicago,” that’s in my estimation because of the way it looks, and this all went on and Jack used to rehash it with me until it—well, I know that’s what that call was for.
Mr.Hubert. And that was all during the period then of September and October?
Mrs.Grant. In the summer—last summer and he also told me, you know, he told me during one of those months he said, “I tried to call Lenny Patrick,” and he said, “I got his number,” he got it from somebody and I don’t know who, what and I didn’t give a darn.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack tell you all of this prior to November 24?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, sure. To tell you the truth, the way I see Jack through this little glass, he has very little to say.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Robert McKeown [spelling] M-c-K-e-o-w-n, or have you ever heard of him?
Mrs.Grant. Is it a Dallas man?
Mr.Hubert. I believe not.
Mrs.Grant. Would it be my friend or Jack’s friend?
Mr.Hubert. Well, it would probably be Jack’s friend. Did Jack ever tell you of contacting him by telephone and going to see him in the Galveston area concerning the selling of jeeps to Castro?
Mrs.Grant. Now, I know Jack was in Cuba 6 or 7 years ago or one of those years.
Mr.Hubert. Oh, yes; you told us about that—that was when he went to join McWillie for a little while?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; and I also know that I did hear the story about jeeps.
Mr.Hubert. When did you hear that?
Mrs.Grant. Well, let me say this—I don’t know whether I heard it last year or the year before, but I do remember something in a conversation—some guy told him he knew where there were 400 or 800 jeeps or 80 jeeps and whether Jack went down—Jack went to Houston first of all—he did go to Houston last year to see a man from a night club. They were going to exchange acts or work in a deal, but I don’t remember who the man was, and this all came about, but Jack, I’ll tell you, he isn’t that kind of a promoter.
Mr.Hubert. What did Jack tell you about the jeeps?
Mrs.Grant. This was the deal with McWillie at the time and we were on friendly terms, as much as I remember about it, and I think he shoved it off.
Mr.Hubert. Was it the jeep proposition that had something to do with Jack’s visit to McWillie in Havana in 1959?
Mrs.Grant. Jack was very depressed, he was having a lot of trouble, that McWillie sent him as much as I know, a ticket to come to Havana to have a week or 10 days vacation. That’s as much as I know of the whole darn thing and deal outside of the talking about jeeps at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Did that visit have anything to do with the jeeps in addition to the rest and vacation that you know of? Now, don’t guess about it.
Mrs.Grant. Yes; but I heard “Jeeps” but I didn’t pay too much attention to it.
Mr.Hubert. Well, then, the real fact is you don’t know much about it?
Mrs.Grant. I really don’t.
Mr.Hubert. You heard something about jeeps about that time, but you are not in a position really to say that you know yea or nay—yes or no—whether Jack’s visit to Havana with McWillie had to do with jeeps or not; isn’t that right?
Mrs.Grant. Do you know that I didn’t know at the time he was in Havana. I knew this a few years later.
Mr.Hubert. What I mean is—the real fact is you don’t have any knowledge of it—of the real facts?
Mrs.Grant. I have no specific knowledge of it, but I do know that my sister told me he was down in Havana. He called Chicago from there and he said he’s in Havana and I think he spoke to Marion Carroll—that sister.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Lawrence Meyers?
Mrs.Grant. I knew a Meyers but I can’t think of his first name.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him or meet him during the first 3 weeks of November 1963?
Mrs.Grant. Not that I know—I can’t think of it—no; this fellow I knew years ago, but I can’t think of his first name—gee, that isn’t his first name. He used to live here in town on Lemmon Avenue.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Alex Gruber?
Mrs.Grant. You mean Al Gruber on the West Coast?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you known him?
Mrs.Grant. I heard his name around the house 30 years—Jack knew him when they were young.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know that Jack had called him on the night of the President’s death?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; I do.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us how you knew it?
Mrs.Grant. Either late that evening or the next day he talked to Al and there was something in the conversation—Al was here early in the fall and in fact coming through—I was in the hospital and he promised Al a dog and it seems to me I called him—I must have called him later on; anyway, when I did call him a week or so later or whenever I did, I don’t know, but it was after this incident, Al said, “You know, Jack was crying when he called me on the day of the assassination?”
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack himself tell you he had called?
Mrs.Grant. No; Al told me. I had called Al myself. I had called Al within 10 days of the President’s assassination, something regarding to the dog.
Mr.Hubert. Yes, ma’am; I understand that—you mean before the President’s assassination?
Mrs.Grant. No.
Mr.Hubert. After?
Mrs.Grant. But Jack has talked to him before too—some weeks.
Mr.Hubert. But did Jack tell you that or did Gruber tell you that?
Mrs.Grant. No; Al told me this.
Mr.Hubert. You did not know that Jack had called Gruber on the night of the President’s assassination until Gruber himself told you?
Mrs.Grant. No; it seems to me that Jack even may have mentioned it, but stillI made a call myself to Al in regards to the dog. Jack said he promised him a certain dog.
Mr.Hubert. And you say Gruber had been through Dallas?
Mrs.Grant. While I was in the hospital in November—in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him then?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; I did. He visited me at the Gaston Hospital.
Mr.Hubert. You were hospitalized for how long?
Mrs.Grant. For about a week.
Mr.Hubert. What was the nature of your illness; do you recall?
Mrs.Grant. Tumor and hysterectomy.
Mr.Hubert. And you were in there about a week?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was your relationship with Jack from the standpoint of, say, personal relationship as brother and sister and, of course, as comanager—were you on a friendly basis?
Mrs.Grant. Most of the time.
Mr.Hubert. Any difficulties between you sometimes?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; lots of times. We got along a lot of times like a disagreeable man and wife. If my band leader complained it was no good. If I complained it was no good.
Mr.Hubert. What was Jack’s attitude generally toward politics; do you know?
Mrs.Grant. He didn’t have any.
Mr.Hubert. To your knowledge did he belong to any kind of organizations whatsoever?
Mrs.Grant. Not one that I could put my—outside of the YW—YMCA or something to that effect or the union connected with the musicians’ union or AGVA, and maybe three or four private clubs around—entertainment clubs.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any sort of attitudes toward conservatism or liberalism or any kind of “ism”?
Mrs.Grant. All I know—he’s a good American and he is far better than a lot of people are.
Mr.Hubert. But, did you ever notice any interest that he had in pro-Cuban affairs or anti-Cuban affairs or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or anything of that sort?
Mrs.Grant. This is the exact words when they spit on Stevenson last fall—Jack and I were going to dinner or coming to dinner and someway or somehow we were sitting in the car—his car—and he looked at me and he says, “Isn’t that awful?” He says, “They ought to knock their heads together.” Now, we were told two young fellows out of college or in college did that and he says, “To think—a man devotes his time” and he went on for a couple of minutes, and that was it, and I remember the incident of—I’ll tell you—he respects high people and he admires highly educated, cultured people—good family men.
Mr.Hubert. Well the answer to my question, I gather, from what you have said, then, is that Jack did not have any ideas that were pro-Cuba or anti-Cuba or pro-Castro or anti-Castro?
Mrs.Grant. He was against communism from the beginning of when it even entered his mind. I don’t know what year—maybe 35 years ago.
Mr.Hubert. How did he express himself on that?
Mrs.Grant. He didn’t have to—from the things he done—was too American—too much American.
Mr.Hubert. But my point is—I gather from that that he never discussed with you his feelings about communism or anything—it’s just that you observed that?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I’m not an intellectual on those subjects, to be honest about it.
Mr.Hubert. Was he the type of man that would be interested in these subjects himself?
Mrs.Grant. No; not to express it openly or fight with it—in this manner, if you said anything against anybody or anything big of our country that is Americanism—you might as well—he would knock the hell out of you.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, what you are saying to me is that if he has any kind of “ism” at all, it would be Americanism?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right—he has that—he does have that—that’s his greatest.
Mr.Hubert. Jack never married, did he?
Mrs.Grant. No; he was engaged to a young lady here.
Mr.Hubert. What generally was his attitude toward women; do you know?
Mrs.Grant. Well, in his late life I think he was sort of a playboy myself, but in his early life he wanted to get married. There were several individuals he had a great love for and the trouble is, he picked on women who were of means and he couldn’t give them what they wanted. He could tell from the way they were reared or their attitude, and how they expressed themselves when they get married—what they wanted, and I think it sort of cooled him toward making it. He liked women. He was a real man.
Mr.Hubert. I understood he took good care of himself physically?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. In the sense that he took physical exercise regularly?
Mrs.Grant. And the truth is, he has a great sympathy for women who are left with hardships and maybe it started with me or my mother—if they have to work and do a lot of things—it was in the back of his mind.
Mr.Hubert. Jack didn’t drink very much, did he?
Mrs.Grant. He didn’t drink a fifth of liquor a year. When we went out, we ordered two drinks, I would drink mine and have to drink two-thirds of his. Then, we were ashamed to sit there and he would order it again—not that I’m such a big drinker, but that’s what he did.
Mr.Hubert. What about smoking—he didn’t smoke either, did he?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t remember but once he had a cigar in his mouth, a couple of years ago at a party and maybe he had three or four cigarettes in his life, that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Did you and he have any difficulties about the girl that he was going out with one time and I think Rabbi Silverman had to kind of intervene?
Mrs.Grant. That he was going with? That wasn’t it—it wasn’t about a girl.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you did have a disagreement?
Mrs.Grant. A very big disagreement—early this summer of 1963—it was in the early part of the summer. It was over money. He had $800 or $900 and he wanted to pay bills and somebody encountered him who needed their car fixed or something and I think he paid for the car and he didn’t pay the electric bills, and when he went to jail in November—3 months of the Carousel’s bill on the electric company wasn’t paid and it ran almost $800 or $900 for 3 months.
Mr.Hubert. What was the particular argument about then—that he had loaned some money to someone?
Mrs.Grant. No; it was not the first occasion only—this one—that’s the time that I blew my top and I had been sick—I have been in very bad physical condition and he wanted me to get out of the club, and Leo Torti who worked for us on weekends told him that I was having a difficult time and I should be in the hospital and he said, “I gave you money to go to the hospital,” and he gave me a push and I had just got some new high heeled shoes and I went back about 8 feet and I hurt my arm and my shoulder and he wanted me out of the Vegas Club.
Mr.Hubert. Whose car did he have repaired with the money you thought he should have used for the lights?
Mrs.Grant. Some family man—he does that—I haven’t the least idea and I don’t think he did either.
Mr.Hubert. How did you find out it was used to repair someone’s car?
Mrs.Grant. Some man come in my club weeks later and says, “Your brother was in,” and I didn’t even know this man’s business, and he said he works there as a car mechanic and he says, “He got someone’s car out of hock,” so I figured maybe it was his car—I didn’t think of it.
Mr.Hubert. Who was that man, do you know?
Mrs.Grant. Some customer at the Vegas Club—if I saw him, I would know him.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t remember his name?
Mrs.Grant. No; but I knew his appearances. He was one like the regulars who come about every month one time.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what kind of car he drove?
Mrs.Grant. No; I was in the club—I wouldn’t know what the patrons were driving, but he did repair someone’s car and it was a family man that was supposed to go on the road or some darn thing and if I’m not mistaken, as far as I know, my brother never got the money back. It wasn’t $800 worth of repairs, but these are the things that he did.
Mr.Hubert. What was the twistboard deal, can you tell us about that?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; he met a man—I think this man lives in Fort Worth and I think his name is out there somewhere and it says a plastic company on that thing—I’m almost sure it is the same man, and this man was manufacturing them and Jack had a deal with him to cover Texas, and if it went good, Jack would get the whole United States. In fact, I think somewhere in my apartment there might be a twistboard. I don’t know if I ever saw the man or not, but I believe he is in either Arlington or Fort Worth, lived there, and there is a twistboard that Jack—he sold quite a number—he sent some out to different people.
Mr.Hubert. Was Earl interested in that?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t know. Earl’s partner, I think, is a friend that he knows—we call him George—in a laundry in Detroit. Whether he was or has been—I don’t think Earl wanted—in Earl’s business with this man, I think the contract reads he cannot go into another business. I may be wrong, but I’m almost sure that’s what I remember Earl saying at one time.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether Earl had any interest in the twistboard operations at all?
Mrs.Grant. I doubt it, unless he advanced Jack some money, but I don’t think there was that much money put into it. The man let Jack have, say, a hundred twistboards and he paid for them and I don’t know too much about it, but I did have them in the club and we gave them away as prizes and I know Jack contacted weight salons where women go to reduce about them.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember having any contact whatsoever with Ralph Paul?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. During the period from November 22 through November 24, up until the time Oswald was shot?
Mrs.Grant. Me?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mrs.Grant. I don’t think I even talked to him during those days.
Mr.Hubert. That’s what I mean.
Mrs.Grant. You know, I assume him and Jack were very good friends.
Mr.Hubert. I’m not suggesting to the contrary.
Mrs.Grant. He never did call me and I never called him—I don’t remember calling him. I have called him many times since then.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; I know, but I’m talking about during this particular period of 3 days.
Mrs.Grant. I don’t think he has ever called me—I have called him.
Mr.Hubert. No; I mean—let’s restrict ourselves for the moment to the three days of November 22, 23, and 24.
Mrs.Grant. He may have called me on the 24th of November.
Mr.Hubert. After Oswald was shot?
Mrs.Grant. Well, there was at least 20 calls when I did not pick up the phone—people in my home did.
Mr.Hubert. No, ma’am; that’s not what I’m talking about but let me get at it this way—was there any contact between you and Ralph Paul from the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot?
Mrs.Grant. No; definitely not. Can I go back with something?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, ma’am.
Mrs.Grant. Let me explain about this Raymond Jones. He worked for 19 years at the Dallas Athletic Club and when Jack got in trouble, the very next week he had made a remark to his boss, whoever he is, “I’m going to see my friend,” they said, “Where are you going?” And he said, “I’m going to see my friend,” and they said, “Who is your friend?” And he said, “Jack Ruby.” They told him that if he went to see Jack that he didn’t have a job. He says,“Well,”—he came back and he went to see Jack and he couldn’t get in and he came to see me at the Club and he says he just quit. I said, “After 19 years?”
Mr.Hubert. The Vegas was closed too, was it not?
Mrs.Grant. It was closed on and off a few times after that.
Mr.Hubert. No; I mean, the Vegas was closed on November 22, November 23, and November 24?
Mrs.Grant. Well, 2 days after that—it was closed for 5 days.
Mr.Hubert. And then ultimately it was sold?
Mrs.Grant. Then, I opened it again and I closed it and I opened it for New Year’s and I closed it permanently January 4.
Mr.Hubert. Until when?
Mrs.Grant. Until someone else bought it—it wasn’t in operation until this woman got her license, which was about the 1st of March.
Mr.Hubert. And of course the Carousel closed too because of the license lapsing—the liquor license?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; they closed February the 12th, from what I understand— their liquor license was revoked.
Mr.Hubert. Well, let’s take a break for a few minutes.
Mrs.Grant. You mentioned a man’s name McKeown or something like that; may I ask you what he does?
Mr.Burleson. Let’s take a break now, Eva.
(The deposition proceedings were recessed as heretofore stated and continued as hereinafter shown.)
Mr.Hubert. Let the record show that the deposition is continuing after the recess at 9:10 p.m. and that Mr. Burleson will ask some questions with respect to the block of questions and the areas covered by those questions before I go on.
Mr.Burleson. Mrs. Grant, you were saying out at the Vegas Club that the employees were paid in cash, and you mentioned something about giving them some type of check with their name on it. Would the transaction be such that you would give them a check and then cash the check for them in effect?
Mrs.Grant. That’s exactly it, but the check never went through the bank procedure. It was like a voucher that they had received that money on.
Mr.Burleson. Was it on a regular bank draft that it was made out on?
Mrs.Grant. Most of the time.
Mr.Burleson. And the net effect would be that you would give them a check and then cash it for them and take the check back and give them cash?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I put the check in an envelope and I would have—like your salary is $65, withholding and social security, and write on the back of the envelope that, and a lot of them kept their envelopes and a lot of them threw it out and they had signed the check and returned it and the balance of what money they should receive was in there.
Mr.Burleson. Now, you were in the hospital the first part of November 1963?
Mrs.Grant. I was sick for a solid week.
Mr.Burleson. Now, you had been having some trouble for quite some time?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. And as a matter of fact, Jack had been trying to get you to go into the hospital because the doctors had advised him and you that you needed this operation immediately? And you had been prepared on at least one, or maybe more than one occasion, to go to the hospital and everything had been arranged for the operation and you backed out at the last moment?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. And Jack knew that you were having this trouble and knew that the doctors recommended that, and you talked with your doctors about this?
Mrs.Grant. All through the whole week.
Mr.Burleson. And finally he was able to get you in the hospital there the first part of November 1963; is that correct?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And you then had what—a partial or complete hysterectomy, or do you know?
Mrs.Grant. I know they took out a tremendous tumor and a lot of things—I didn’t ask because I don’t know what parts it was.
Mr.Burleson. Who was the doctor?
Mrs.Grant. Bill Aranov.
Mr.Burleson. Then you got out of the hospital 7 days after the 6th, which would have been about the 13th?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. And that was in the middle of a week—about a Wednesday, wasn’t it?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; Wednesday—that’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, were you given some medication after you left the hospital?
Mrs.Grant. Well, not for a few days, I would say, but about the third or fourth day I got pretty bad.
Mr.Burleson. You started what—hurting and being in pain?
Mrs.Grant. Tremendous pain.
Mr.Burleson. And did this doctor that had operated on you prescribe some pills?
Mrs.Grant. His coworker or assistant—I think his name is Dr. Bookatz.
Mr.Burleson. But, at any rate, a doctor did prescribe some pills. What type of pills were they, do you know?
Mrs.Grant. I believe that they have codeine in it.
Mr.Burleson. What would be the effect on you that these pills would have?
Mrs.Grant. Well, they put me into a trance and made my body stiff and I didn’t have any more pain but I wasn’t as alert as I usually was.
Mr.Burleson. Did it affect your thinking?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Did Jack visit you in the hospital?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes; two or three times a day—mostly two times anyway.
Mr.Burleson. And called on the phone sometimes?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes; and sent me three bouquets of flowers and everything.
Mr.Burleson. And how long did you take this medicine after you started taking it—2 or 3 days after you got out of the hospital?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I really didn’t start to take it until the weekend after I was home.
Mr.Burleson. That would have been the weekend about the 16th?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. And how long did you take it?
Mrs.Grant. Well, there was 1 or 2 days I cut down and then I—about the 21st, which was a Thursday, I had an unusual severe pain and I started all over again.
Mr.Burleson. Taking heavy doses of it?
Mrs.Grant. Well, they are tablets and I called his nurse and she suggested to take them but not as often as I did when I complained it threw me into a trance but it still did, because I am not a pill taker and I guess pills work a little better on me.
Mr.Burleson. Were you taking pills on the day of the 22d of November?
Mrs.Grant. I already had two pills by the time the President was assassinated—these pills are prescribed one every 4 hours.
Mr.Burleson. Do you subscribe to the Dallas Morning News or did you back on November 22?
Mrs.Grant. No, no; but my manager was very sympathetic.
Mr.Burleson. Your manager?
Mrs.Grant. My manager brought it up every day she came to the apartment.
Mr.Burleson. That’s your manager at the apartment house?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And she brought it up—the paper?
Mrs.Grant. Every day.
Mr.Burleson. About what time of the morning on November 22 did she bring it up?
Mrs.Grant. It may have been around 11 o’clock.
Mr.Burleson. Had you heard from Jack before that concerning the ad?
Mrs.Grant. No; shortly—it seemed within the next 20 minutes I would think that he may have called.
Mr.Burleson. Had you seen the ads by Bernard Weissman by the time Jack called?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I had seen it, but I’ll be honest—Ididn’t——
Mr.Burleson. Did you see it after you got the paper on the morning of the 22d before Jack called on the 22d?
Mrs.Grant. Yes, I did.
Mr.Burleson. And Jack was talking about it at that time?
Mrs.Grant. He was.
Mr.Burleson. And would you relate at this time some of the things you recall he said at that time about the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mrs.Grant. Well, the first thing he asked was if Pauline is going to take over—she was the manager, and do this and do that and get the napkins and all of this stuff connected with the club and then he said, “Did you see the ad?”
Mr.Burleson. This was before the President was shot?
Mrs.Grant. Yes. It so happened that that whole page was like on the back of a section—it seemed to me anyway that it was that way and it was open right on my bed—that section, anyway, was opened at that time for some reason or other.
Mr.Burleson. What did Jack say when he called you about the ad?
Mrs.Grant. At that time he said, “Did you see the ad?” And I said, “What ad?” He said, “About the President?” And I said, “Yes.” It said, “Welcome, Mr. Kennedy,” and he didn’t say too much then. He said some words in regard—like what do you think of it, so I said, “Oh”——He said, “Did you read it?” And I says, “Yes, yes.” You know, I wanted to get away.
Mr.Burleson. Had you really read it?
Mrs.Grant. Even if I did, I’ll be honest about it, it didn’t appear to me to be bad or good because I didn’t read all the way down and think about it and I didn’t study it like maybe I did later.
Mr.Burleson. Anyway, go back to what he said then.
Mrs.Grant. Well, he said, “Read it.” He says, “I’ll call you later.” And he was in the Dallas Morning News, I think, at that time.
Mr.Burleson. He said something to lead you to believe that?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; well, he said—it seems to me, “I’m in the News, and I’m going to Toni Zoppi’s office,” which was somewhere in the building, and “I’ve got to pick up a pamphlet.”
Mr.Burleson. Toni Zoppi being the entertainment editor or amusement editor of the Dallas Morning News?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right; and Jack had given him an ad a week before on a certain entertainer and that’s the fellow that made the remark, but that was Del Mar—Bill DelMar or DeMar or something like that, and Jack wanted it because, I guess, the entertainer wanted all this stuff back—that’s what we call writeups.
Mr.Burleson. When was the next time, then, that you heard from Jack; was that after the assassination?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And at that time what was Jack’s state as you recall it?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I was hysterical myself. He must have been crying, from his voice.
Mr.Burleson. At the time that he called, did you know that President Kennedy had been assassinated?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes; because Pauline had called me and on my clock it was about 25 to 1.
Mr.Burleson. What was Jack doing—saying—or was he crying?
Mrs.Grant. Well, when Jack called it was after 1 again.
Mr.Burleson. How was he—was he upset or normal?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, he was upset.
Mr.Burleson. What did he say?
Mrs.Grant. He says, “I’m in the Dallas Morning News,” and I could hear—it wasn’t distinct, but he says, “The people are all around here, the phones are ringing like hell and everyone is canceling their subscriptions and their ads—bigads from all over the State,” and he said, “Did you read it?” And so I read it again.
Mr.Burleson. While he was waiting?
Mrs.Grant. No; but I mean since then—I looked at it—I’ll be honest about it, I didn’t comprehend it.
Mr.Burleson. Okay.
Mrs.Grant. You see, I didn’t comprehend it.
Mr.Burleson. Tell us what else he said.
Mrs.Grant. Well, Jack said something about John Newman, the fellow that takes the ads there and he says, “You know, Jack, I have to take orders from my superiors,” and Jack, whether he told me that night or later on in the afternoon— he said, “What are you—so money hungry? That you have to take $1,500 for an ad?” Jack knew a full page cost approximately that—I mean, he is well aware of that.
Mr.Burleson. Let me bring you forward a little bit on these occasions that you told the FBI about in these statements where Jack spent this time with you at your house—would you watch television during this period of time or some of the time?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he didn’t. I had watched it a great deal that afternoon on a Friday, and he came over—it seems to me when he left the News he came over and came back later on with a lot of groceries and by that time either I saw Curry or somebody else on the television and he was saying, “We got the right man.”
Mr.Burleson. Did Jack see that?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t know—I really don’t know. I tell you—usually under those pills, I thought I heard it plenty that day, and we got sick when we were talking about that.
Mr.Burleson. Did you and Jack talk about Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Grant. He had made very few remarks— he says, “He’s a creep.” You see, “a creep” is a real low life to Jack and “what a creep he is,” he says, and he was sick—he went in the bathroom.
Mr.Burleson. Did he actually vomit?
Mrs.Grant. He did not—he was sick to his stomach and he cried, he looked terrible—he just wasn’t himself, and truthfully, so help me, I remember even my mother’s funeral—it just killed him. He said this, “Someone tore my heart out,” and he says, “I didn’t even feel so bad when pops died because pappa was an old man. He was close to 90.”
Mr.Burleson. What did Jack have to say about President Kennedy?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, all I know is that it just killed him. I’ll tell you the truth—he sat there like it wasn’t worth life—like he thought they were out to get the world, the whole world, and this was part of it.
Mr.Burleson. All right. He was very respectful of President Kennedy as a man and as a President?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, he admired him—he thought this man was a great man of courage. If I said anything like I said there—something about his brother and integration, he said, “This man is greater, than Lincoln”—the same night.
Mr.Burleson. Did Jack ever have an occasion to say anything to you about a letter that was in the newspaper that was written by some man, purportedly to President Kennedy’s daughter, Caroline?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t know about that, but the week—the same week of the assassination—I think it was Monday or Tuesday—it was that week, there was a picture of the President sitting behind the desk just like you are and John-John was sitting at the front and you could see him playing around, I think it was his father’s feet, and he called it his house—I think, let me put it this way: My brother says, “This kid don’t know his father is the President and the father don’t act like a President.” He meant that he was just like a good guy—like acting ordinarily, like he wasn’t of wealth or power—he was just like the average young man and Jack looked at him as even being much younger than he was.
Mr.Burleson. But you don’t know anything about such a letter being in the paper that Jack saw?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t know—if he did, I don’t know it. I’ll tell you, I don’t know about that picture—it was the first week that I was home.
Mr.Burleson. On Saturday, the times that Jack was in your house, do you recall if he watched any television?
Mrs.Grant. No—very little. Saturday he came in with three pictures, and at the left hand corner, they were postal card pictures and he told me what he did. He went home and he couldn’t sleep—he got Larry out of bed and George Senator, and I thought he was nuts, I’ll be honest with you about it, so help me.
Mr.Hubert. Who?
Mrs.Grant. I thought my brother Jack was plain nuts.
Mr.Burleson. Is that when he went out in the middle of the morning and took the pictures?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right; and he didn’t know exactly where he saw it—that was the worst part of it and Larry told me that later on when they found him, he came back to it and they drove around and waited for daylight and he showed Larry how to take the pictures.
Mr.Burleson. You are talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right—all of this got in Jack’s mind that some Communist—no, no—he didn’t use the word “Communist”. I think he said “Some outfit or some lousy guy,” or something was putting up signs like that.
Mr.Burleson. Did Jack tell you what he was going to do with this picture?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. What?
Mrs.Grant. First, he showed it to me—three little pictures.
Mr.Burleson. You actually saw the pictures?
Mrs.Grant. Yes—I saw them—they are postal cards—laying out on my white table. They were this big (indicating).
Mr.Burleson. These are pictures of “Impeach Earl Warren” signs?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; and they looked like the American flag.
Mr.Burleson. And it was on this Polaroid film?
Mrs.Grant. The camera is still at my house, so that’s the same camera, I’m sure.
Mr.Burleson. All right.
Mrs.Grant. It was like a postal card picture. It seems to me in the left hand corner was that, and at the bottom it said, “Belmont—Impeach Earl Warren,” and a box number and it said, “Belmont, Massachusetts.”
Mr.Burleson. What did Jack tell you as he showed you those pictures?
Mrs.Grant. He called Stanley because he had a lot of faith in him.
Mr.Burleson. Stanley who?
Mrs.Grant. Stanley Kaufman; an attorney. This is another wonderful American, and he said, “Stanley,” and he told him about the pictures and then he talked to me, he says, “You know what, I went down to the post office and the newspaper box—the post office box——”
Mr.Burleson. The newspaper box of Bernard Weissman’s ad?
Mrs.Grant. Yes—“It’s so stuffed with mail,” he said to the clerk, and you can find out now which clerk this is, and on the 23d he was there at 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning and Larry and Senator should know the time—I really don’t know that—but it seems to me that’s what he said.
First of all, he figured that a gentile is using that name to blame all this on a Jew—about that ad, and then he analyzed the ad on Saturday and he saw the black border.
Mr.Burleson. Will you tell me what Jack said he was going to do with these pictures?
Mrs.Grant. He talked to Stanley and he was going to take them to the FBI—Monday, the first thing.
Mr.Burleson. Was he also going to take them to Mr. Gordon McLendon who was the operator of KLIF?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; he said he was going up there that night. Whether he did or was there or not, I don’t know.
Mr.Burleson. Did he mention at that time—did he mention Mr. McLendon’s name, that Mr. McLendon does these editorials on radio station KLIF?
Mrs.Grant. Yes—he was very close to Gordon.
Mr.Burleson. All right.
Mrs.Grant. In fact, I think he called Gordon from my house. He was there—and on Saturday he spent a long time with me and he called many people.
Mr.Burleson. And he was quite upset over these pictures and signs?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Now, let’s come forward to where we were talking about this Al Gruber.
Mrs.Grant. Yes—Al.
Mr.Burleson. Or it’s possibly Alex Gruber.
Mrs.Grant. Yes; it’s Al Gruber—his nickname is Musty.
Mr.Burleson. And there was something about a dog?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Now, is this the dog that Jack was having someone build a crate for?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right; or buy a crate or something.
Mr.Burleson. And that he could ship this dog to Al Gruber in a crate?
Mrs.Grant. It seems to me when Al was here when I was in the hospital, Jack had promised him a certain dog, I don’t know which one it is, and not a dog, but a certain dog, because Jack had a lot of dogs. His dogs just had puppies, I think, in the last month and Al had talked to—Jack had talked to Andy Armstrong—Andrew—and said something about getting a crate and Al wanted this dog.