Mr.Burleson. Now bringing you forward a little bit to this episode that you and Jack had the trouble over that ended up in going to Rabbi Silverman and that you touched upon?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he went to Rabbi Silverman because we weren’t talking for about 2 weeks. This was previous to the operation.
Mr.Burleson. All right; and did Rabbi Silverman talk to you?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Had Jack complained to him that he couldn’t get along with you or something?
Mrs.Grant. Well. I don’t know exactly what Jack said—the rabbi, you see, didn’t tell me, but I told the rabbi about this money deal. Of course, I didn’t tell him that I didn’t go to the hospital on all these times that I had made arrangements with the doctors and backed out.
Mr.Burleson. Now, you were asked some questions concerning Jack’s political beliefs or political leanings or political philosophies or political—anything that had to do with politics, did you ever hear Jack saying anything about being a Democrat or a Republican or being a right wing or left wing—he didn’t get involved in politics?
Mrs.Grant. Now, this is it—my older brother knew a lot of Democrats and it seemed that we followed in their footsteps, because this is what I heard as a child—that the Democrats are for the poor people, so we as poor people went along with them, but we were never the kind that I was to go out and get votes or boast about a fellow—me and Jack—never.
Mr.Burleson. You don’t know if Jack worked in any type of political movement?
Mrs.Grant. Not to my knowledge. My older brother did—he was a Democrat and he worked for Governor Horner.
Mr.Hubert. Who is the older brother?
Mrs.Grant. Hyman.
Mr.Burleson. Now, I think you also told me that Earl Ruby’s wife had a great admiration for President Kennedy also?
Mrs.Grant. Truthfully, Earl couldn’t get out of her sight unless she OK’d it, but she was such a great admirer, and you know how much time he spent down here and money and Earl said she never said a word—she just loved him.
Mr.Burleson. You mean loved the President?
Mrs.Grant. The President—the late President. They’ve got pictures—little pictures before the assassination—they had all of those.
Mr.Burleson. That’s enough on that. Now, one lastarea—
Since, and limit this to strictly since the conviction, you have visited Jack nearly daily in the jail?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I would say at least six times out of the week.
Mr.Burleson. What is, in your opinion, Jack’s present condition?
Mrs.Grant. I believe he is mentally deranged, inasmuch as I’m not a doctor, but from what he says to me.
Mr.Burleson. You have now, as of this moment, been informed by a newspaper and also by me about what Jack attempted to do today?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; I have.
Mr.Burleson. And you were informed and knew of what Jack had attempted to do about a month ago when he rammed his head up against the wall, were you not?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. What has Jack told you as to what you should do with and to yourself?
Mrs.Grant. He wants me to do away with myself.
Mr.Burleson. Does he give you a reason why?
Mrs.Grant. He thinks they are going to kill out all the Jews and he has made remarks that 25 million Jews have been slaughtered.
Mr.Burleson. Already?
Mrs.Grant. On the floor below.
Mr.Burleson. And they are being slaughtered where?
Mrs.Grant. In the jail and sometimes it’s planes going over and they are dropping bombs on the Jews.
Mr.Burleson. Has he told you about hearing or seeing Jews boiled in oil?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes.
Mr.Burleson. And has he told you about seeing or hearing his brother, Earl, being dismembered?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; and his children.
Mr.Burleson. And Earl’s children, and by dismembered, he has seen them cut off?
Mrs.Grant. Arms and legs—they are cut off.
Mr.Burleson. Does he, nearly every time you talk to him, ask you to check on them, when is the last time?
Mrs.Grant. I have to sort of tell real lies, that I just got through talking with Sam and Earl and with Eileen and with Sam and everything is OK.
Mr.Burleson. Because he says that they have been doing this to them?
Mrs.Grant. He says many times he has seen Sam on the second floor and the rabbi was going—yesterday, they took the rabbi, sometimes they take Stanley.
Mr.Burleson. That’s Stanley Kaufman you are talking about?
Mrs.Grant. Stanley Kaufman.
Mr.Burleson. In other words. Jack just doesn’t make sense when you talk to him?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, no; then sometimes he will say one thing that will be all right and then he goes off into this stuff.
Mr.Burleson. Has Jack told you that he was actually tried for the killing of President Kennedy?
Mrs.Grant. No; but he thinks that they think that he killed the President.
Mr.Burleson. Did he tell you that what he went through with was not really a trial, but a farce?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And part of a play?
Mrs.Grant. In fact; his verdict is on the 14th and the next day he says to me in front of Eileen, “When will the trial be?”
Mr.Burleson. Did he say it wasn’t really Judge Brown that was up there but somebody else?
Mrs.Grant. That’s exactly what he said.
Mr.Burleson. Did he tell you anything about their introducing evidence in his absence?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And that evidence that they were supposed to have introduced is the fact that he killed President Kennedy?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he just thinks they are blaming him for it and they think he did it and they are going to take it out on all the Jews.
Mr.Burleson. Does he tell you many times that you will never see him again because he will be killed?
Mrs.Grant. Every time he kisses me goodby that day, he says, “You will never see me again. Do away with yourself.”
Mr.Burleson. To save yourself this punishment?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. What is your opinion as to his present condition mentally?
Mrs.Grant. I have seen him just 24 hours ago and he was in a very bad state of mind.
Mr.Burleson. He was in a very bad state of mind?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. How about physically?
Mrs.Grant. He has lost between 35 and 40 pounds to my knowledge. He looks like he has been in a concentration camp.
Mr.Burleson. What is his greatest desire as you know it right now?
Mrs.Grant. He wants to tell the Warren Commission the truth—he wants truth serum and a lie detector test.
Mr.Burleson. The truth being not going into the psychomotor variant epilepsy.
Mrs.Grant. He don’t know much about that—he doesn’t even know what they are talking about.
Mr.Burleson. He just wants to tell how he felt and how these things affected him?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. I believe that’s all on those.
Mrs.Grant. All right.
Mr.Hubert. When he tells you these various things, do you try to straighten him out and say to him that it is not so?
Mrs.Grant. When it first started—I didn’t realize this—I hadn’t said things—I said, “Don’t be crazy,” just words like that—“what are you talking crazy,” and then when we got to—this Dr. Beavers into the case and I talked to him and he read something of his report and, of course, my sister was here at that time. Every day he would say to her, “You’ll never see me again. Kiss me goodby through the glass.” You know, if it wasn’t so serious it would be funny in a way, because it don’t seem like him. It seems that if I agree with him it’s no good and I have tried—I realize Dr. Beavers said if you’d try agreeing with him then he says, “You don’t believe me, do you?” He says, “They are playing a game with you, don’t believe Phil, don’t believe him.” And I said, “What about the rabbi?” And he says, “The rabbi don’t listen to me.” And truthfully, every time the rabbi went up there he came down sick and disgusted with himself—he’s trying to knock some sense into Jack and it don’t work—it doesn’t register with the rabbi, you see.
Mr.Hubert. What I wanted to get at—you all are trying to discourage him from having these views?
Mrs.Grant. Well, after talking to the psychiatrist, I said I don’t know what to do. If I tell you, you will agree with him it is no good, and if I don’t—I stay there and listen through this glass.
Mr.Burleson. I might be able to help with that—help clarify that—when he says that they have just killed Earl or Sam or their children, you say, “No, that’s not true because I just talked to them?”
Mrs.Grant. I say, “I just talked to them,” and then we’ll get onto something and I will try to talk about a friend who wrote a letter or someone came to see him and he goes right back, he says, “There’s no more Earl. They have dismantled him.” That’s the words he uses.
Mr.Burleson. And do you come back and say, “Well, it’s not true because I just talked to him 30 minutes ago or 2 hours ago?”
Mrs.Grant. Or, he makes me promise, “Will you call them tonight to be sure it’s not so—to be sure it wasn’t him,” and I’ll be sure that it is somebody else on the phone. They can check with the calls last Saturday—he made seven calls to Chicago.
Mr.Hubert. Who did?
Mrs.Grant. Jack; he don’t know that he made them, he don’t know that he made that many. I got the letter that he made them from Eileen at home.
Mr.Hubert. He is allowed to make phone calls though?
Mrs.Grant. Well, sometimes—I think he annoys them a little bit—those who sympathize with him and they figure he’s pretty screwy, you know he is really gone—he makes these collect calls to Chicago and they let him and there are one or two guards that aren’t as nice—I think they are not as tolerant.
Mr.Burleson. Let’s go off the record just a second, so that I can give Mr. Hubert some information.
(Discussion between counsel and the witness off the record.)
Mr.Burleson. They have a pay phone out there in the jail, do they not?
Let’s go off the record just a second to give Mr. Hubert some information.
(Discussion between counsel off the record.)
Mr.Hubert. I have to explain what went on while we were off the record.
Let the record show that while we were off the record Mr. Burleson was explaining to me the circumstances used in the jail for allowing prisoners, especially those who are under a death sentence to use the pay phone in the jail, and that was the substance of the conversation off the record.
Now, do you have any more questions, Mr. Burleson? Are you through?
Mr.Burleson. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I wanted to get into the matter of the financing of the defense of your brother, Jack—I suppose we should start with the selection of the attorneys originally in this case. Now, we know that Mr. Tom Howard apparently took the first affirmative action on behalf of Jack Ruby in the afternoon of November 24.
Mrs.Grant. On the 24th.
Mr.Hubert. And I want to ask you if you know by whose authority he took this action?
Mrs.Grant. Ralph Paul, who knows nothing about lawyers—only knew Howard and they called them thinking they could get back on bond. Now, I didn’t know Oswald died until later in the afternoon. I was hysterical over this shooting and being sick and the President’s assassination—in fact, my television was on but it was turned down.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, it was Ralph Paul that called Mr. Howard for the initial step?
When it came to the charge of the matter which ultimately followed, did you have anything to do with the selection of the attorneys who would defend your brother Jack?
Mrs.Grant. Let me put it this way—there was Daugherty and Sullivan and Jim Martin, and one guy was threatened and one fellow’s wife didn’t want him in. Tom Howard pushed Jim Martin out of the case. I was panicky here. I had asked Tom to call Fred Brunner, Charles Tessmer—what is the name of this Erisman?
Mr.Burleson. Fred Erisman.
Mrs.Grant. Erisman or something like that and also Percy Foreman to get another lawyer—you know, a super lawyer that I felt—I didn’t know too much about Tom, but talking to Chicago and people telling me here and everything, anyway, Tom remained in the case and I understand he didn’t contact these people as quickly as he should and Earl was panicky up in Detroit.
Mr.Hubert. Didn’t Earl come down here as a result of that?
Mrs.Grant. Not that day.
Mr.Hubert. Not that day?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t know how many days later he did come, but we were on the phone constantly. He went to the west coast and he went to see one of the names there, Mike Shore who knows Frank Sinatra there and we figured that they would know somebody and that’s how Belli came into the picture. Now, that is that part of the picture. Now, we didn’t have any money.
Mr.Hubert. What about Tonahill, how did he get in?
Mrs.Grant. Oh: he was a friend of Belli’s—Belli invited him in—as much as I know.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, Tonahill came in after Belli did; is that correct?
Mrs.Grant. Or maybe together—they were together I think on insurance cases previously—I assume this.
Mr.Hubert. So, Belli chose a local lawyer, as it were, to go along with him; is that the idea?
Mrs.Grant. Well, Tom was still in the case. Tom called him right away.
Mr.Hubert. Called who?
Mrs.Grant. You know more about that—Tom got us an investigator, Bob Dennison.
Mr.Burleson. You made the statement that Tom called you?
Mrs.Grant. Tom called you.
Mr.Hubert. You mean Phil Burleson?
Mrs.Grant. Phil Burleson.
Mr.Hubert. And ultimately, in any case, Mr. Belli was retained to handle the defense?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Was a fee arrangement made with him?
Mrs.Grant. Let me explain that part—this is what I know. I was not in San Francisco or Los Angeles. Earl told me this—he says, “You’re looking at Belli—$75,000,” and Earl thought you might as well have said $75 million, but he says, “I will want about $25,000 to pay my expenses and I think I could write a book and make $50,000.”
Mr.Hubert. Earl was telling you that?
Mrs.Grant. Earl told me wordsthat——
Mr.Hubert. That Belli had told him?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; and this is what took place in their conversation.
Mr.Hubert. When you were quoting some sentences there a moment ago, I understood you to mean, and see if I am correct, that Earl was telling you what Belli had told him?
Mrs.Grant. Yes, and I don’t know if there was a contract—I assumed it was agreeable with Earl. Earl already had talked to a fellow by the name of Billy Woodfield, the writer. Billy Woodfield, and don’t ask me how they got connected—I know little about these things—he’s going to write a short story for Europe, and he probably could help us raise this initial $25,000 cash. Well, no; he didn’t say that—that was for his expenses—he didn’t get any money down that day as far as I know.
Mr.Hubert. Then, the fee was $75,000, of which hethought——
Mrs.Grant. He could write a book and retain $50,000 out of the book, but he would like $25,000.
Mr.Hubert. As soon as possible?
Mrs.Grant. That I don’t know—he says for expenses on the case.
Mr.Hubert. How much was actually paid to him; do you know?
Mrs.Grant. Let me tell you this—the short stories were sold in Europe and some in America through newspapers. Each paper paid separately—$400, $300, $600, and the story said, “My story—Jack Ruby.” I gave most of the story, Jack gave some of it, but I knew this story—what would you call it—little incidents that happened in his life, some of it, and some part of the story was right on Friday and Saturday the 22d. I gave the whole story, you know, I have newspaper stories of it, and I gave it to Belli, and all these little stories, we were supposed to get $50,000 from all the different agencies that bought this to put it in their papers—that’s how it’s done, but we received, I would say to my knowledge, $23,000.
Mr.Hubert. How was it handled?
Mrs.Grant. Earl.
Mr.Hubert. Earl controlled the funds at that time?
Mrs.Grant. At that time, yes. It came to the writer and the agent, Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield. Larry sells the story, Billy wrote the story. You know, you need a writer even though you write.
Mr.Hubert. I’m talking about the money that came to you?
Mrs.Grant. Well, they received some money on the west coast but they deposited it in a bank with an escrow deal.
Mr.Hubert. In what bank and under what name was it?
Mrs.Grant. Earl will tell you—Earl has papers from the bank.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know that?
Mrs.Grant. I know it’s in Hollywood and I know Earl says he received about $23,000.
Mr.Hubert. It was not handled in Dallas.
Mrs.Grant. Not to my knowledge—1 cent of that.
Mr.Hubert. But you say that Earl is the one who is handling the money?
Mrs.Grant. At that time, Earl had power of attorney.
Mr.Hubert. He had a power of attorney from Jack?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, this contract was made for the benefit of Jack, as it were, and the money that came in was put into some escrow agreement and then Earl was able to withdraw from that and sign checks against it by virtue of the power of attorney; is that right?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right, that’s right; these people received, I would say, 35 percent.
Mr.Hubert. Is that correct—the way I put it?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; but we received ourselves, I think, $23,000—there may have been $30,000.
Mr.Hubert. What happened to the money you did receive?
Mrs.Grant. Earl has checks that were made out directly to Belli, which I think he himself cashed about $13,200.
Mr.Hubert. Who is “he”?
Mrs.Grant. Mr. Melvin Belli. I do know that the doctors were paid and that may have run to $3,500, and we do know that Bob Dennison received $4,000. I cannot give you step by step because I do not have it, but Earl has an accounting of all the money received through the efforts of that story; however, Earl has spent—I don’t know how many thousands. In the first place, I think Earl put in $7,000 right away for things, but he took it out later.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know how much has been received all told—you say about $23,000 as a result of the story?
Mrs.Grant. That’s as much as I know. This is what I know. There may have been some money—we were supposed to get money in later, but I don’t know if we got it.
Mr.Hubert. Were there any other people or organizations that contributed any money?
Mrs.Grant. No;well——
Mr.Hubert. Or, do you know?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; I know. But I’m trying to think how to tell it to you. Recently we received $100 from Walter Winchell in the last 10 days. We received $250 a month ago from friends back in Chicago. Then there is a lot of 5’s and 10’s—I guess I, myself, could not go into that account, by the way. In the city of Dallas, I received $245 that I had given to Eileen to reimburse Earl. We put that in a Jack’s defense fund. I received that amount, then that was December and January—those months, and then in March or April, I think I also took $110—let me tell you, the money comes into the county building, you know, the checks, and when I say I received it, it doesn’t come directly to me.
I typed up all the money on a list and I sent it on to Eileen with a check for deposit of $110. That’s the money that I know, but if we will stop for a minute, I know the hundred, the 250, the 245 and the hundred—those were plus that $23,000. Now, if there is any other money—did I tell you any other money? I told you everything there was.
Mr.Hubert. There are no substantial amounts?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, no; listen, don’t listen to those reports.
Mr.Hubert. Except from the result of the selling?
Mrs.Grant. The big fee was $250 and the story was sold, and we received—I would say Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield took 35 percent of the money—the writer and the agent that sells it of the story. I know there was $23,000 came in and there may have been more since then.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, Earl would have more accurate figures?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. As far as you know, in the handling of the money, it is less than a thousand dollars that came through you?
Mrs.Grant. I think there is a thousand in all of this money and a few hopes. The New York Times was very sympathetic and they put an ad in their paper. Most papers will not take an ad for what you call “Jack Ruby’s Defense Fund.” The ad cost $150—I think they took it less than the ad.
Mr.Hubert. You paid $150?
Mrs.Grant. I didn’t—someone in Chicago or Earl must have paid it, but I do know that, that ad went in. Now, if any other little moneys come in, I don’t have any accounting of it. I know it came in here—this is the money that I know.
Mr.Hubert. And to your knowledge, then, what has come through your hands is less than a thousand dollars?
Mrs.Grant. Well, let’s see—$245, $110, $250, and $100—I think that’s about it, unless I have forgotten some, but that’s all I know myself.
Mr.Hubert. All the rest has been handled by Earl?
Mrs.Grant. That was for the sale of the short story.
Mr.Hubert. Now, at the present time who are the attorneys for Jack Ruby? That he still has? Mr. Tonahill is apparently still in the case?
Mrs.Grant. Well, we retained Mr. Tonahill and Burleson from the very first minute and they are still in. Shall I tell him about Belli?
Mr.Burleson. Go ahead.
Mrs.Grant. The day of the verdict I got a telephone call that if Belli don’t get out of town they are going to kill him.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know who the phone call was from?
Mrs.Grant. No; but on the other hand, Ithink——
Mr.Hubert. Did you convey that information to Mr. Belli?
Mrs.Grant. No; but unfortunately, I didn’t hear from him Saturday. He had a heart attack while he was here, I think, during the trial—he was deathly sick.
Mr.Hubert. Belli was?
Mrs.Grant. There were a few days he went to get a cardiograph and all that. One of the days, 1 of the 2 days—well, it wasn’t 1 day, it was 3 days, really, but he went to court anyway, and I remember on the Saturday he went to some clinic here and got all kinds of tests, but the day before he was almost a goner.
After I heard the news of the verdict and what came over radio or television, I thought he would die. He couldn’t talk on the phone—he mumbled Saturday to some member of my family who called him. I didn’t hear anything until later on—late Sunday afternoon, and Monday I went to visit him at his suite.
Mr.Hubert. That was here in Dallas?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right; at the Statler-Hilton. He answered the phone and, of course, I heard mumbling and there were newspapermen and Life magazine men—I don’t remember everyone that was there, but there were 10 or 12, maybe about 10 people, my sister and myself. His wife was leaving one direction and he was leaving the other. She was white as a ghost and he was white as a ghost and I just didn’t say anything because they were packed up to leave and I didn’t want it to get out because he said he was going to San Antonio, but I don’t think he went there at all. I think he went another direction because he just wanted to sort of fool who was after him, but it was a very bad day for him and myself and my sister. I didn’t even tell her that. You see, they were downtown and I was home in my apartment the day of the verdict. I was glad when he left. That, and adding up a few other things—people said, “You are lucky to get him out because you didn’t know the things.” They said, “They were trying Melvin Belli and they weren’t trying Jack Ruby.”
Of course, between that telephone call andeverything——
Mr.Hubert. Was that a local call?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, no.
Mr.Hubert. Or, was it a long distance call?
Mrs.Grant. No; it was a local call.
Mr.Hubert. Was it a man or a woman?
Mrs.Grant. A man, and another thing, I know my phone was tapped and I know—it’s a terrible thing to say, but I have all reasons to believe that the district attorney has been on it and is still on it. The only time they got off is when I went to the FBI and complained about it; that I thought my brother wasn’t protected in the city jail, and somebody knows every move I was making. It seems my phone was clearer after that, and truthfully, if the district attorneyhas any tapes on me, it should be in on the tape of the day of the verdict, and I was so sick over the verdict and having this.
Mr.Hubert. You did not recognize the voice that made the threat against Belli?
Mrs.Grant. No.
Mr.Hubert. Were you asked to convey that information to Belli?
Mrs.Grant. No; no.
Mr.Hubert. How long did that conversation last; do you know?
Mrs.Grant. Not over 3 or 4 minutes. It was the other party speaking. This happened the afternoon—the day my brother got his horrible verdict.
Mr.Hubert. That was Saturday afternoon, March 14?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right; March 14.
Mr.Hubert. About what time of the afternoon was it?
Mrs.Grant. I would say after 2:30—sometime between 2:30 and 4, it seems.
Mr.Hubert. It was a one-sided conversation, I take it?
Mrs.Grant. Practically.
Mr.Hubert. And the essence and the gist of the conversation was that if Mr. Belli did not leave town he would be injured?
Mrs.Grant. The voice said something like this, “Mrs. Grant?” I says, “Yes.” He said, “If Melvin Belli knows what’s good for him, he had better leave town. They are going to kill him.” Now, I don’t know—this man didn’t sound like a child and he didn’t sound like an imbecile.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask him who he meant by “they”?
Mrs.Grant. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so shocked at the verdict, and before I knew it he was off—I was hanging on the phone there by myself.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate to you in any way who “they” were?
Mrs.Grant. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or who was going to kill him?
Mrs.Grant. No. Oh, now I want to tell you about—going back to Monday, which would be the 16th, there was conversation and, of course, I think I heard this Sunday too.
Mr.Hubert. That’s March 16?
Mrs.Grant. I think March 16 was on a Monday.
Mr.Hubert. That’s correct.
Mrs.Grant. But I may have heard this Sunday, that the sheriff—and there has been threats against Belli—and this is another thing I know, whether someone is on my phone and leaked it out—it wasn’t me, that the sheriff is going to give Belli a guard out of town, that he has been threatened, but I already knew that. Then, I got to thinking about all of this and I says, “I hope he leaves, I don’t want to have this on my mind,” but, I knew when I was in his suite of rooms—somebody called there Monday afternoon sometime and he went to the phone for a minute; as a rule someone else was answering the phone, and then he went in the bedroom there and he answered the phone. He had quite a suite of rooms—three rooms, I think, and the remark among the people there—they said the sheriff is going to give him a guard, you know, escort him out of town.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you heard that that afternoon.
Mrs.Grant. Too, but it wasn’t—I already had known that from the conversation Saturday afternoon, it didn’t look good.
Mr.Hubert. Did he comment upon this telephone call that he answered himself?
Mrs.Grant. No; he hardly did any talking that afternoon.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you mentioned the telephone call, I wonder why you did so, that is to say, what import you had put on it?
Mrs.Grant. You want to know the truth?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; I want to know the truth.
Mrs.Grant. I was not thinking anything about it but he is coming back for a trial and I told Phil recently, I thought he was going to get his trial transferred from the Texas Bar Association and I guess he can’t. I wasn’t going to say anything about it—I figured—he’s never coming back, but now I am a little scared. I wouldn’t like anything—look, you don’t want a lawyer in a case?
Mr.Hubert. Let me finish about this phone call—is there any other significanceto that phone call that you heard him answer? You mentioned it in connection with this.
Mrs.Grant. It didn’t look right when he left—left the phone.
Mr.Hubert. That’s just an impression, though, he didn’t say anything to indicate the nature of it?
Mrs.Grant. No; no.
Mr.Hubert. You indicated that perhaps, I say—you indicated—the way you brought it up—it could be inferred perhaps that it was also a threatening phone call?
Mrs.Grant. No, no; I didn’t mean that at all.
Mr.Hubert. But, do you know that to be a fact?
Mrs.Grant. No, no; this was merely that the sheriff said he was going to escort him out of town.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think it was the sheriff on the phone?
Mrs.Grant. It could be—that’s what I felt, and shortly after this there was another phone call came in and he went in and he took the call.
Mr.Hubert. When you said the rumor or talk was that the sheriff was going to escort him out of town, I assumed you meant he was going to give him protection, is that what you meant?
Mrs.Grant. That’s what I mean, so he doesn’t get hurt. Maybe the sheriff knows something about this, although he does know—I don’t know. I only know I was too sick after the verdict to even think about anything, but now that I know he’s coming back, I asked Phil, I said, “Do you think he’s coming back?” And he says, “Yes; he’s coming back.”
Mr.Hubert. Mrs. Grant or Mr. Burleson, do you have any other matter I have touched upon that you would like to bring up at this time?
Mr.Burleson. I would like to go into some of these things you have just questioned her about.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Burleson. Right at first, Mr. Tom Howard did go down and talk to Jack on Sunday the 24th?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes.
Mr.Burleson. And did get a writ of habeas corpus, I believe?
Mrs.Grant. I know nothing of the court procedures of that date.
Mr.Burleson. You don’t know that Judge Brown did set a bond on assault with intent to commit murder upon Lee Harvey Oswald before this hearing?
Mrs.Grant. I understand it was filed in Richardson. I may be wrong. Someone told me that, that they did file a murder charge against Oswald.
Mr.Burleson. Before Oswald was pronounced dead, did you know anything about Judge Joe B. Brown setting bond and granting a writ to let Jack out on assault with intent to commit murder?
Mrs.Grant. Ihonestly——
Mr.Burleson. Do you or not?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t.
Mr.Burleson. Then, subsequently, Mr. Howard had myself go up and talk to Jack—you learned that, did you not?
Mrs.Grant. I learned there were about three or four or five attorneys that went up and talked to Jack.
Mr.Burleson. Then, Mr. Belli came in town and at the time, did you hear from Mr. Tonahill?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. He called you in the middle of the night, I believe?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. And did he tell you that he and Mr. Belli were together?
Mrs.Grant. No.
Mr.Burleson. Did he just mention himself?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. What did he say?
Mrs.Grant. He asked me if I had hired an attorney and I said, “I think Earl got somebody.” And they were discussing it with Percy Foreman, but I was wrong. They never got to Percy Foreman because Tom Howard never called him.
Mr.Burleson. Then Melvin Belli did come in town and met with Mr. Tom Howard and Mr. Tonahill?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And stayed out at the Cabana Hotel, I believe, the motel out on Stemmons Freeway?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I was never at that hotel to visit them—I can’t remember.
Mr.Burleson. Earl was in town at the same time Mr. Belli was in town?
Mrs.Grant. I think you are right there—that they were all over there—Earl was there for a couple of days but I didn’t go there.
Mr.Burleson. Then Mr. Belli went down and talked with Jack prior to the time and he said that he would accept the case, do you remember that?
Mrs.Grant. I’m sure he did.
Mr.Burleson. And after talking to Jack, do you remember he said he would accept the case at that time?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Burleson, may I make this suggestion—of course, this is not a court hearing, on the other hand, for the sake of the value of the testimony, I think if you wouldn’t lead her so much that the testimony might have more weight.
Mrs.Grant. Well, I’ll tell you, my mind—I’m just about out of my mind.
Mr.Burleson. Yes. Do you know if that is when I became active in the case—at that time?
Mrs.Grant. I think you came in about—it seems to me—about a week after this incident—it seems to me that’s when I first met you.
Mr.Burleson. And do you know if Mr. Belli brought any attorneys with him from California?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Do you know who that was?
Mrs.Grant. I know he brought Samuel Brody.
Mr.Burleson. Now, after this, there was a bond hearing, I believe; is that correct?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And who sat at the counsel table with Mr. Ruby, your brother?
Mrs.Grant. I know you were there and I know Mr. Brody and Tonahill, Mr. Belli—I think Tom Howard was there right along then.
Mr.Burleson. And then, that actually was on one occasion or on two occasions that that bond hearing was held; or do you recall?
Mrs.Grant. It seems to me a couple of times—maybe more than that.
Mr.Burleson. Then bond was denied?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. Then, at the time of the change of venue, do you know who the attorneys were at that time?
Mrs.Grant. It seems to me the same group were still there.
Mr.Burleson. Do you recall about that time if anything occurred in connection with Tom Howard and his connection with the case?
Mrs.Grant. About the picture?
Mr.Burleson. No; just about whether or not he continued in the case or did he?
Mrs.Grant. It seems to me at that time—he was leaking information to the district attorney’s office, he was in the way of Mr. Belli and Mr. Tonahill—at least they felt that or they told me that. We had found a mistrust in him, which is close to that time as I can remember, where information has come to us that Tom Howard is trying to sell a picture of the late President Kennedy being shot and half of his skull is in the air, to Life magazine, and I think Billy Woodfield had told that to Earl and Earl told me to get ahold of the Secret Service, they came out to see me and Elmer Moore, and another gentleman—I cannot think of the other gentleman’s name—he probably could recall—and we went in the alley because I don’t know if my place is bugged or not, and the Secret Service stepped in to either squash the sale of this particular picture or got ahold of it—the films and everything, and, of course, when Belli found out, he was sick because he said it don’t look right for an attorney representing a person to do something like this.
Mr.Burleson. All right. Anyway—somewhere aroundthere——
Mr.Hubert. May I examine her just a little on that point?
Mr.Burleson. Yes; go ahead.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever find out whether it was true that Mr. Howard was doing this?
Mrs.Grant. Well, since then I heard it was true, but doubly true there’s some girl that works for one of your departments who heard and who told another person that there is evidence there is a picture of that kind in existence.
Mr.Hubert. You have never seen the picture?
Mrs.Grant. No; I haven’t. I also heard several days before the assassination there was a pamphlet put in all the drugstores where you sell magazines and was distributed all through the city of Dallas with the late President’s picture, and the top of its says, “Wanted” and the bottom had a number like a jailman, you know, a convict, and the day of the assassination, early that afternoon these distributors had a devil of a time trying to remember all the places they placed that particular pamphlet, that was for sale for 10 cents or 15 cents.
Mr.Burleson. Come back up to his question.
Mr.Hubert. I just wanted to explore whether or not it had come to your knowledge whether the story was the truth or not?
Mrs.Grant. This all came to me—call me back on the word “communism” that I said later on, if you want?
Mr.Burleson. Do you know anything else about this alleged sale of the picture?
Mrs.Grant. Nothing, but Earl told me to get ahold of the men here and I did and I called the office and Elmer Moore came out and I told him.
Mr.Burleson. All right. Coming back—along about this time—did you, Earl, and Stanley Kaufman and so forth enter into some kind of a contract with Mr. Howard where he would withdraw from the case?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Did you pay him some money?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; the first week he was in, I had a little money and I think it was when I sold the Vegas Club and I think I had $1,600 and I had bills to pay but I didn’t pay them and I gave him $200.
Mr.Burleson. At the time that you terminated his services in the case, did you pay him some money then?
Mrs.Grant. We gave him a check for $2,000—we gave him $2,700 altogether, but I gave him $2,000 when he signed the contract to step out of the case.
Mr.Burleson. Now, when the change of venue hearingstarted——
Mrs.Grant. By the way, when I say “I gave him”—that money came also out of the $23,000.
Mr.Burleson. Now, when the change of venue started and the picking of the jury followed, who were the attorneys then that were sitting there at the counsel table?
Mrs.Grant. Well, Belli, Tonahill and yourself—I don’t remember—I think Sam Brody was sick and went home. However, Mr. Belli brought in a young gentleman who came and sat for a while.
Mr.Burleson. Could that have been Mr. Bill Choulous?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And that was out of Mr. Belli’s office?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. Then, when it got into the actual trial of the case after the change of venue lasted about a week, who were the attorneys then during the picking of the jury?
Mrs.Grant. Well, Mr. Burleson, Mr. Joe Tonahill, and Mr. Belli did all the work from picking the jury and through the trial.
Mr.Burleson. The three of them?
Mrs.Grant. The three of them.
Mr.Burleson. And they continued on through the trial?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And they were the only ones sitting with Jack Ruby at the time of the verdict?
Mrs.Grant. You know, I was not in the courtroom all during the trial. They kept me out in the lobby, but I do know—that is what I heard or saw.
Mr.Burleson. Now, within a week after the verdict came in, did you write a letter to Mr. Belli dismissing him from the case or asking him to withdraw, one or the other?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. You told him in the letter—what?
Mrs.Grant. Well, I couldn’t reach him by telephone and since he’s traveling around, andI’m——
Mr.Burleson. What did you tell him in the letter?
Mrs.Grant. Say it again?
Mr.Burleson. Did you tell him in effect if he didn’t resign you would fire him?
Mrs.Grant. Well, yes; words to that effect.
Mr.Burleson. In other words, he did resign?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I think that letter was published in the press, was it not?
Mrs.Grant. No—I never gave it to them. If it was, it shouldn’t be, because we only made three copies, the original went to him and one to Mr. Burleson and one to Tonahill. I didn’t want any more copies around—I didn’t want that—that was one of the things that bothered me.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t know, ma’am, I had the impression that I had seen that letter through seeing a copy of it in the press.
Mrs.Grant. If you did—I didn’t see it here, or we didn’t, and we would have known it.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t know—I may be mistaken.
Mrs.Grant. That is one thing—that’s the whole thing—the whole case was tried in the papers.
Mr.Burleson. Now, after that you were feeling pretty low and sick at that time, weren’t you?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Did your family—Earl and Sam and sisters go down to Houston and talk to Mr. Percy Foreman?
Mrs.Grant. They did.
Mr.Burleson. Was a contract drawn up at that time?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; there was.
Mr.Burleson. Did Mr. Foreman know you had Jack Ruby’s power of attorney?
Mrs.Grant. I don’t know what they told him but it was well indicated that I was now controlling. I took over Earl Ruby’s power.
Mr.Burleson. What did Mr. Foreman do as to whether or not he made any announcements as to whether he was the attorney?
Mrs.Grant. Well, he immediately called in the press. He immediately stated what he wanted, he took pictures of my family and he said he wanted $5,000 within 10 days and another $5,000 30 days following the 10 days.
Mr.Burleson. Did he come to Dallas shortly thereafter?
Mrs.Grant. The following week, I think, he came to Dallas—it wasn’t that weekend, it was the following weekend—am I right—or was it that week?
Mr.Burleson. That week—I think they went down there, if I might help you a little bit, about Monday.
Mrs.Grant. He came down on a Saturday—I did not see him, but I spoke with him over the phone. I thought he asked too much money. He wanted power of attorney and I wasn’t happy about the contract, because these contracts havea——
Mr.Burleson. You had not signed a contract?
Mrs.Grant. No.
Mr.Burleson. Anyway, he went and visited Jack?
Mrs.Grant. And he wanted Jack to come downstairs to take pictures with him and our civil attorney, StanleyMarcus——
Mr.Burleson. Do you mean Stanley Kaufman?
Mrs.Grant. Stanley Kaufman, pardon me, wouldn’t permit it. He said “This is one of the reasons Mrs. Grant and her family didn’t want Belli in the picture. There has been too much newspaper publicity, radio, and television. He couldn’t be hurt any worse and there is no sense of you getting into this widespreadpublicity,” and Mr. Foreman and Mr. Kaufman got into some squabble there and Mr. Kaufman left heated, I understand, and Mr. Percy Foreman called me later that afternoon that he was coming out to see me in the evening. He heard I had a doctor and I was sick. He didn’t show up.
Mr.Burleson. Did he make arrangements to meet you the next morning?
Mrs.Grant. He did.
Mr.Burleson. Monday morning?
Mrs.Grant. At 9:30.
Mr.Burleson. Where?
Mrs.Grant. In the lobby of his hotel—the Statler.
Mr.Burleson. Did you come down?
Mrs.Grant. I came down.
Mr.Burleson. With whom?
Mrs.Grant. With my sister Eileen.
Mr.Burleson. Did you meet him?
Mrs.Grant. I met Mr. Burleson and Mr. Tonahill and we waited, and we went upstairs and waited—we ordered some coffee and a roll and we waited there about an hour and 40 minutes. The telephone rang and a news commentator was on the phone and Mr. Burleson answered it and Mr. Burleson was shocked from what he heard on the phone, that Mr. Percy Foreman, instead of coming down to his own room to see us, he went to the newspaper office somewhere or television or radio—I have no idea, and made a public display of himself, that he is withdrawing from the case. He indicated that he didn’t get along with the family and he didn’t like our attorney—our civil attorney.
Mr.Burleson. Did you at any time see him personally?
Mrs.Grant. I never met him personally.
Mr.Burleson. He then got out of the case and hasn’t had anything to do with it since?
Mrs.Grant. No.
Mr.Burleson. Then, shortly thereafter, did you have an opportunity to have a conference with Dr. Hubert Winston Smith?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; I did.
Mr.Burleson. And did you, Jack, and everybody sign a contract with Dr. Hubert Smith?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. Employing him as chief counsel?
Mrs.Grant. Yes—as chief counsel.
Mr.Burleson. And keeping Mr. Tonahill and myself on?
Mrs.Grant. Oh, yes.
Mr.Burleson. Subsequent to that time, did your brother up in Chicago talk to a Mr. Charles Bellows?
Mrs.Grant. Well, Mr. Bellows knew about this case right along because members of the family have known him for 20 or 30 years. I have never known him—I have heard of him—they went to him, and it’s got so sick and sickening here that Earl decided, as a friend, he could help us and he is in the background.
Mr.Burleson. Would you say he is in more an advisory capacity?
Mrs.Grant. Just as a good family friend, and he is, I understand, a very fine great criminal lawyer and he wants to help.
Mr.Hubert. And you are speaking of the present as well as the past?
Mrs.Grant. In the past he didn’t intercede because he figured Belli would be capable. Not that—now, wait a minute—I don’t mean to say that they are not—it’s just after there is so much to it and he has heard how the case was handled, and since Earl went to him.
Mr.Burleson. And Mr. Bellows did make one trip down to Dallas?
Mrs.Grant. Yes; he did.
Mr.Burleson. And stayed a matter of hours and then flew on back?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right.
Mr.Burleson. So that to get back to what we wanted to answer the question he asked you earlier—who are the present attorneys now?
Mrs.Grant. Phil Burleson, who is doing most of the work, Mr. Joe Tonahill, Mr. Hubert Winston Smith, and Mr. Charles Bellows.
Mr.Burleson. And Bellows is in an advisory capacity to help any way he can?
Mrs.Grant. That’s right. I’m sorry I forgot about some of them.
Mr.Burleson. Now, going to this money situation—as far as you know, recognizing that you are under oath—as far as you know, there were no contributions of any large sum other than the one $250 that you have talked about.
Mrs.Grant. That was the largest and the one and only of that kind.
Mr.Burleson. Have you heard rumors that the Ruby defense fund received large sums?
Mrs.Grant. I have heard they got—I think they’ve got close to a thousand dollars—I may be wrong.
Mr.Burleson. I mean, have you heard rumors for instance, not too long ago I heard a rumor that Stanley Marcus gave $25,000; have you heard rumors similar to that?
Mrs.Grant. I have heard many of those kind by different people but we haven’t received it.
Mr.Burleson. You know nothing about any such large sum?
Mrs.Grant. (Shaking head so as to indicate a negative reply.)
Mr.Hubert. She is shaking her head—the answer is “no”.
Mrs.Grant. Oh. I’m sorry; no.
Mr.Burleson. Mainly, the only things you know about personally or have heard about from other members of the family are the sale to the magazine of the story, which you have told us about, and the small amount you have told us about?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. And you know of no organization that has given any sum?
Mrs.Grant. Not that I know—they may be now—Earl is trying to talk to some organizations that he belongs to like B’nai B’rith, that he used to belong to—I don’t know. This is what I know—what I told you.
Mr.Burleson. All right, but you don’t know of any—say—labor unions or civic clubs or anything like that that have given any money?
Mrs.Grant. I’m sure—I’m sure they haven’t. In fact, wait a minute—Michael Levin, another good friend of the family—we know him only for 45 years and he’s my older brother’s friend since they were 14 years old and he has compiled a letter and is asking certain individuals that he knows—doctors, lawyers, big business people—to contribute, and when I talked to Eileen last, which was Saturday, she said, “We didn’t receive one—” some of them don’t even answer the letters and some say they haven’t got it or something else.
Mr.Burleson. Now, there were some reports in the newspapers concerning the fact that Dr. Hubert Winston Smith was going to raise a lot of money.
Mrs.Grant. Well, we hope he’s going to raise a lot of money—we hope he can raise sufficient money to cover legal fees. He’s interested in an academy institute of law and science.
Mr.Burleson. Have you received any money from Dr. Winston Smith?
Mrs.Grant. No; and I don’t think he’s gotten anything or even worked on it yet.
Mr.Burleson. Now, to clarify my position in the thing—you have paid me, the family has paid me a total for everything, somewhere in the neighborhood of $700 or $800 or $900?
Mrs.Grant. At the most—that’s right.
Mr.Burleson. You are trying to get more together, though, aren’t you?
Mrs.Grant. Well, now, wait a minute—Belli was supposed to pay out of that $13,000—$2,000—I asked him what he was going to pay you. He didn’t pay you?
Mr.Burleson. Right.
Mrs.Grant. As he told me.
Mr.Burleson. Right.
Mrs.Grant. And I know he didn’t pay you—that was up until the time he didn’t pay you at that time.
Mr.Burleson. But I have entered into a verbal contract with you and the other members of the family for you to compensate me on the appeal and things of that nature—right?
Mrs.Grant. Yes.
Mr.Burleson. I’m through, as far as I am concerned, on that point. Now, is there anything other than what we have talked about here that you want to clarifyfurther——
Mrs.Grant. Yes; I want toclarify——
Mr.Burleson. Wait, let me finish—or do you think that we haven’t talked about anything that you feel like is important that you would like to state at this time?